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Jamie do you think if Isis had our means with their ends that the US wouldn't look like a bad day in Fellujah?
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You've unwittingly provided a very key subtext that undercuts your entire point. The first video shows entire cities, urban areas, residential neighborhoods, schools, all completely destroyed. Everyone in that video who offers their thoughts on the subject blames ISIS directly for this destruction. They don't blame the United States or coalition forces for laying waste to a working hospital in its quest to kill jihadists. Now, hold that thought.
You might want to avoid using language that suggests that the people you're having discussions with lack wits or anything else along those lines.  It doesn't just make you look like a jerk, but it actually rebounds all the harder on you when someone shows that your argument doesn't fly.

Even considering that the people in that video blame ISIS for the destruction, rather than the USA, that doesn't say a single word about the far more numerous number of people who were not part of the video.  More to the point, while we cannot know their thoughts, it is reasonable to conclude that a substantial percentage of them are less willing to overlook the USA's role in the destruction.  If I were in their shoes, with a foreign country coming in and destroying large sections of the city I live in, even assuming that it was to deal with an abhorrent militant group such as ISIS, I would still be pretty pissed at the fact that it needed to happen at all, and I wouldn't be at all happy with the people who actually did all that damage, wherever I felt the blame lay.

You might want to consider that, rather than talking about how the people in the video blamed ISIS, because it's not just a matter of who's to blame.

Quote from: BlackLight
The second video shows what appears to be S.O.P. for bombing jihadists. Discrete buildings are targeted and destroyed. There are no people (possible civilians) visible in the immediate surrounding area. Clips #2 and #3 illustrate the point most clearly. In areas where other buildings are clearly visible, you see a precision airstrike on a single structure in center-frame. You don't see a carpet-bombing campaign of the entire area. Surrounding buildings (whether occupied or not) are left relatively unscathed.
Do you honestly think that because the video doesn't show any civilians around, that means they weren't present?  I don't claim to know, but I'd find it highly unlikely that there were no civilians hurt or killed, even by so-called 'precision' bombs, especially considering the amount of damage done by them..  Even you acknowledged that the surrounding buildings were "relatively unscathed" - meaning they took some damage.

Quote from: BlackLight
If the second video illustrates how the U.S. and coalition forces typically execute a bombing run against jihadists, then it supports the contentions made in the first video - when you see an entire city or neighborhood reduced to a pile of rocks in the desert, odds are it's not the work of the U.S. military indiscriminately bombing civilian populations.
Nobody here has suggested that the US military is indiscriminately bombing civilian populations, meaning this is another strawman.  I asked you before to refrain from them.  Now I'm telling you to do so.  If that was not clear enough, I (or another moderator) can officially make that point in the future.

That being said, you do have a reasonable point here, that the US does use less brutal methods than the jihadis and at least makes the effort to minimize civilian casualties.  However, we cannot use their brutality as an excuse to justify our own, even when we aren't as brutal as they are.  The fact that the other side's hands are dirtier than ours doesn't make ours clean, by any stretch of the imagination.
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We can only blow up a single building so many times. True, we do not carpet bomb but after we destroy one of their "hideouts" they move to another building. And we blow it up. Then another and another and another until the whole city is destroyed. I understand that we do not deliberately target civilians but you seem to be dismissing the fact that civilians are killed by our bombs on a daily basis. The people in the first video understand that if ISIS hadn't come in and taken over their city then their city would not have been destroyed. They don't blame us for bombing ISIS they blame ISIS for being there in the first place. They do not blame the rest of the world because they understand that they need our help rebuilding. They are stuck between a rock and a hard place and our foreign policy put them there. Sometimes I feel like ISIS is the bad cop to our "good" cop routine in order to get them to comply with our business model, but I digress.

Listen. I do not have any complaints about killing ISIS members. I really don't. I wish they were all dead. Preferably tortured first, for the things they have done. I would like to see them wiped off the face of the earth but it is utter madness to destroy a whole country or two or three in order to accomplish that goal. What you are advocating is complete, total destruction.
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As much as I respect your concerns, this is a full stop comment. You are blind, by what I do not know.

I want you to think about the people of the Middle East who you believe are complicate with ISIS, ISIL, DAESH or whatever, as you watch this short video.



I want you to think about the fact that ISIS takes over a city and occupies it to stage their next operations as you watch this next video demonstrating our superior ability to thoroughly destroy the urban areas ISIL or DAESH or whatever you want to call them, have taken over.



Now, I need you to explain to me what you think we are bombing.

You've unwittingly provided a very key subtext that undercuts your entire point. The first video shows entire cities, urban areas, residential neighborhoods, schools, all completely destroyed. Everyone in that video who offers their thoughts on the subject blames ISIS directly for this destruction. They don't blame the United States or coalition forces for laying waste to a working hospital in its quest to kill jihadists. Now, hold that thought.

The second video shows what appears to be S.O.P. for bombing jihadists. Discrete buildings are targeted and destroyed. There are no people (possible civilians) visible in the immediate surrounding area. Clips #2 and #3 illustrate the point most clearly. In areas where other buildings are clearly visible, you see a precision airstrike on a single structure in center-frame. You don't see a carpet-bombing campaign of the entire area. Surrounding buildings (whether occupied or not) are left relatively unscathed.

If the second video illustrates how the U.S. and coalition forces typically execute a bombing run against jihadists, then it supports the contentions made in the first video - when you see an entire city or neighborhood reduced to a pile of rocks in the desert, odds are it's not the work of the U.S. military indiscriminately bombing civilian populations.
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We aren't going to succeed as a species until we figure out that eventually, the last man standing will have run out of people to one-up.
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^And it didn't actually wipe them out.  They're still fighting around Ramadi.  In other words, we need more than just military force.

I wonder how many Americans wanted to wipe the Japanese off of the face of the Earth after seeing how ferociously they fought in the Pacific.  Especially considering their tendency to use suicide attacks and their treatment of civilians.  In many respects, the militaristic Japanese empire was at least as bad as ISIS, and I'm sure they were worse in some.

And yet, they're our allies today precisely because we took a different path than attempting to exact vengeance on them.  In fact, Japan is one of the more prosperous and peaceful countries on the face of the planet, because while almost everyone in Japan supported the war at the time, most of them simply wanted to live their lives in peace.  When we gave them the opportunity to do so, they jumped at it.  I wouldn't be at all surprised to find that most Muslims are the same way, whatever the jihadis think.
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Those two videos confirmed Harris is correct and reinforced my own beliefs on these scum. Wipe the fuckers completely off the face of the earth.
Quote
Ramadi, the Anbar provincial capital where around half a million people once lived, was lost to ISIL in May 2015. The US-led coalition carried out more than 600 air strikes in the area from July to December last year.

More than six months of fighting, including ISIL bomb attacks and devastating US-led coalition air strikes, shattered most infrastructure and levelled many homes in Ramadi.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/03/destruction-ramadi-worse-iraq-160304182242699.html


The first video is a consequence of wiping the fuckers off the Earth
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General Religious Discussion / Re: Do "Truthers" Scare You?
« Last post by Add Homonym on Today at 10:24:22 AM »
Ha, guys here go to jail to have a break and recover, eat good, food, get a routine, get medical and dental help,  get healthy then come out to go hard again.

Jail is there safe place to recover.

Keel hauling is too good for them.
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To the innocents who die by our actions, does it matter whether the bomb or missile or whatever that killed them was 'aimed' at someone near them?  Like it or not, bombs and missiles are by nature indiscriminate weapons - we cannot ensure that they only hit the target and nobody else, and indeed, that was never the intended function to begin with.  How many additional enemies do you think we make with every jihadist that we successfully kill with one of these attacks, Blacklight?

Remember that MOAB that was dropped in Afghanistan?  Do you think such a thing would not be completely indiscriminate as to who it kills?  Anyone who happened to be out and about when that bomb dropped is likely dead now.  And while it's true that the Pentagon said that it made every effort to avoid civilian casualties with the strike, there is no telling how many people - militant or otherwise - were actually killed by it, because there has been no investigation done into it.

This is worth reading regarding that, by the way:  https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/apr/13/us-military-drops-non-nuclear-bomb-afghanistan-islamic-state

Like it or not, most of the weapons we're currently using against jihadis are indiscriminate in their nature.  So even taking care to reduce civilian casualties, there are still going to be civilians who end up killed by our efforts.  Do you think the families and friends of those slain by us are going to care that we attempted to reduce civilian casualties?  On the contrary, they're more likely to hate us even worse, because our efforts to "reduce civilian casualties" obviously didn't work for them.

There are solutions to this mess besides "keep on as we're doing" and "back out entirely and wash our hands of them", BlackLight.  Are you willing to look squarely at this and face the facts?  Or are you going to pretend that if you can't see it, it isn't really happening?
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General Religious Discussion / Re: Do "Truthers" Scare You?
« Last post by Emma286 on Today at 04:51:48 AM »
I observed willfully dumb people are usually happier than people that make an effort. Ignorant people don't get anxiety.

All the years I have wasted worrying about truth, the environment, global betterment, the future....... while dumb retards have been partying, fucking, getting welfare, stealing shit, having kids and neglecting them, not a worry in the world.

Can appreciate where you're coming from there.
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