Author Topic: Evolution Explained  (Read 53243 times)

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Offline albeto

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Re: Evolution Explained
« Reply #522 on: April 24, 2016, 12:04:21 AM »
***This well written piece makes me think. And makes me think very hard. What if non intelligence is more powerful than intelligence?

What do you mean, "What if"? Non intelligent factors are quite often more powerful than thoughtful consideration with regard to much motivation of behavior. Dopamine production and activity in the brain explains how animals can be motivated quite apart from conscious decision making efforts.

If evolutionary changes are part of non intelligent changes, then I will conclude that evolutionary process is more powerful than intelligent process.

We know evolutionary changes are part of non intelligent changes.  Skin and hair color is one example of evolutionary changes that are unrelated to intelligent changes. Or do I misunderstand you?

***Here, we have a problem. We always thought we were  special because of our intelligence, but reality teaches otherwise. How can this be?

This premise is irrelevant. "We always thought" the gods created weather patterns based on our success or failure with regard to flattering them or appeasing their bad moods. In other words, simply having a particular belief deeply integrated with the explanation of the human experience doesn't mean that belief is accurate. The value of "special" is assigned rather arbitrarily, and quite subjectively. My dog thinks she's pretty damned special, and no one has ever accused her of being particularly intelligent. ;-)


Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Evolution Explained
« Reply #523 on: April 24, 2016, 12:18:30 AM »
Actually, it's the exact opposite.  Evolution is impressive because it does reasonably well despite being unintelligent, not because it's more powerful.  If anything, it's just more methodical.
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Offline Mr. Orange

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Re: Evolution Explained
« Reply #524 on: April 25, 2016, 05:15:01 PM »
Quote
What do you mean, "What if"? Non intelligent factors are quite often more powerful than thoughtful consideration with regard to much motivation of behavior. Dopamine production and activity in the brain explains how animals can be motivated quite apart from conscious decision making efforts.
By taking taking your  analysis , can you predict where the evolutionary process headed, apart from human intelligence?

Offline velkyn

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Re: Evolution Explained
« Reply #525 on: April 25, 2016, 05:21:22 PM »
By taking taking your  analysis , can you predict where the evolutionary process headed, apart from human intelligence?

why are you trying to set human intelligent apart?
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Offline Mr. Orange

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Re: Evolution Explained
« Reply #526 on: April 25, 2016, 05:34:37 PM »
Correct!

Online Azdgari

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Re: Evolution Explained
« Reply #527 on: April 25, 2016, 05:44:09 PM »
"Correct" doesn't answer Velkyn's question.  Are you a real person, or a bot, anyway?
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Evolution Explained
« Reply #528 on: April 25, 2016, 06:44:33 PM »
Quote
What do you mean, "What if"? Non intelligent factors are quite often more powerful than thoughtful consideration with regard to much motivation of behavior. Dopamine production and activity in the brain explains how animals can be motivated quite apart from conscious decision making efforts.
By taking taking your  analysis , can you predict where the evolutionary process headed, apart from human intelligence?

Evolution is not "headed" anywhere. There is no final goal that evolution is trying to achieve. Evolution is about life surviving long enough to reproduce. If every living thing dies except bacteria, cockroaches, naked mole rats and Keith Richards, evolution is fine with that. Just keeping some sort of life going--that is evolution's "thing".

Although, there does appear to be another "thing" with evolution about diversity of species to fill lots of environmental niches, so after some millennia, if there are environmental changes, more kinds of bacteria, new species of naked mole rats, different cockroaches and other Keith Richardses would appear.

And the world would start anew. It would be kinda scary-looking, but evolution is not about making the world nice and pretty for modern humans, either. If we screw up our habitat, the bacteria and roach-filled world will not miss us at all.
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Offline Mr. Orange

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Re: Evolution Explained
« Reply #529 on: May 04, 2016, 12:03:48 AM »
Quote
"Evolution is not "headed" anywhere. There is no final goal that evolution is trying to achieve. Evolution is about life surviving long enough to reproduce. If every living thing dies except bacteria, cockroaches, naked mole rats and Keith Richards, evolution is fine with that. Just keeping some sort of life going--that is evolution's "thing".
When we compare animal world, and plants to our advancements, we find ourselves light years behind the evolutionary process. This process is so complex , we still can't not figure out how in the world 150 million living species evolved in this short of a time and period.
Now if non intelligence can develop more powerful agents ( ever increasing complexity), then how in the world intelligence was developed  without needing it? Was it an accident or deliberate action?

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Evolution Explained
« Reply #530 on: May 04, 2016, 12:16:41 AM »
I am not sure what you mean but "behind the evolutionary process". There is not a race to get somewhere that we humans are losing. We have only been studying evolution for about 150 years, so it is not surprising that we don't know everything there is to know about it.[1]

As for intelligence, it gives an organism a slight advantage to be a tiny bit smarter and that enables it to avoid a predator a tiny bit better. So it survives long enough to make some babies, and that bit of smarts will be passed on. Over time, the smarter ones keep getting smarter, avoid death longer, and therefore have more offspring. The dumber ones keep getting eaten.

Intelligence becomes a real survival trait for that species, maybe because it did not develop speed or claws or small size or camouflage or fangs or a tough hide or flight or a nasty taste.

That is how we know it works, so what is the question?

 1. Besides, for much of that 150 years, there have been religious folks trying their best to keep any studying/teaching of evolution from happening. So there is that.
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Online wright

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Re: Evolution Explained
« Reply #531 on: May 04, 2016, 12:26:26 AM »
This process is so complex , we still can't not figure out how in the world 150 million living species evolved in this short of a time and period.

What do you mean by "short"? Multicellular life has existed on Earth for about 3.5 billion years, which isn't even short in geological or cosmological terms. And though many details escape us, the process of evolution is pretty well understood at this point.

So to say we can't figure that out is either a lie or easily corrected ignorance. We have figured out how to explain the biodiversity we see both in the present and the fossil record.
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Online Azdgari

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Re: Evolution Explained
« Reply #532 on: May 04, 2016, 01:11:34 AM »
Quote
Multicellular life has existed on Earth for about 3.5 billion years

A bit of correction, wright.  Multicellular life has only been around, as far as has been discovered, for about 650 million years.  Cellular life has been around for at least 3.5 billion years.
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Online wright

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Re: Evolution Explained
« Reply #533 on: May 04, 2016, 01:20:40 AM »
A bit of correction, wright.  Multicellular life has only been around, as far as has been discovered, for about 650 million years.  Cellular life has been around for at least 3.5 billion years.

Whoops. Thanks, Azdgari. I stand corrected.
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Online CrystalDragon

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Re: Evolution Explained
« Reply #534 on: June 01, 2016, 09:51:26 AM »
I know that a number of you guys were Christian so I thought I'd ask—did any of you guys go to Christian schools and if so, did they tech evolution? I went to a Catholic elementary school and high school and I never saw any problem with evolution, in fact I thought it was awesome and I liked working with Punnet Squares. :) (Not to mention my fascination with dinosaurs and the like and watching the entire 'Walking With' series)  Even this article[1] mentions that theologians in the 1st century saw Genesis as being less a literal history/science book and more theology, plus Christians actually praised Darwin for it and Darwin never became an atheist (though he did become agnostic).
 1. https://www.bigquestionsonline.com/2014/06/02/how-are-christianity-evolution-compatible/
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Offline Graybeard

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Re: Evolution Explained
« Reply #535 on: June 01, 2016, 01:19:12 PM »
The Catholic Church had learned its lesson of denying the obvious and maintaining Biblical Literalism. Indeed it produced Gregor Mendel and Georges Lemaitre amongst other scientific geniuses whose work uncovered more explanations than had ever been suspected. The RC Church's acceptance of Evolution was not immediate, but then, on the other hand, there was no reaction against it as there was from the Church of England.
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline Jag

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Re: Evolution Explained
« Reply #536 on: June 01, 2016, 02:53:54 PM »
I know that a number of you guys were Christian so I thought I'd ask—did any of you guys go to Christian schools and if so, did they tech evolution? I went to a Catholic elementary school and high school and I never saw any problem with evolution, in fact I thought it was awesome and I liked working with Punnet Squares. :) (Not to mention my fascination with dinosaurs and the like and watching the entire 'Walking With' series)  Even this article[1] mentions that theologians in the 1st century saw Genesis as being less a literal history/science book and more theology, plus Christians actually praised Darwin for it and Darwin never became an atheist (though he did become agnostic).
 1. https://www.bigquestionsonline.com/2014/06/02/how-are-christianity-evolution-compatible/

I went to a Catholic elementary school, and evolution was part of the science curriculum. IIRC, Catholics formally accepted evolution in the 60's, and see it as "the mechanism by which God moved the human species forward", more or less. In my subjective experience, Catholics generally don't have the same kind of problem with evolution as the more "Bible as literal truth" denominations.

That said, I have met a Catholic evolution denier, who seems to have some YEC ideas embedded within her Catholic ones. It confused me quite a bit, as she is very involved with her church, and works as a youth teacher there. It makes me wonder just what the heck the priest at her parish talks about...
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Offline LoriPinkAngel

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Re: Evolution Explained
« Reply #537 on: June 01, 2016, 05:01:58 PM »
Rush Limbaugh uses Cincinnati Gorilla tragedy to show his ignorance on evolution:

Rush Limbaugh: “Don’t doubt me on this. A lot of people think that all of us used to be gorillas, and they’re looking for the missing link out there. The evolution crowd. They think we were originally apes... If we were the original apes, then how come Harambe is still an ape, and how come he didn’t become one of us?”
It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long.  But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Evolution Explained
« Reply #538 on: June 01, 2016, 05:13:42 PM »
Rush Limbaugh uses Cincinnati Gorilla tragedy to show his ignorance on evolution:

Rush Limbaugh: “Don’t doubt me on this. A lot of people think that all of us used to be gorillas, and they’re looking for the missing link out there. The evolution crowd. They think we were originally apes... If we were the original apes, then how come Harambe is still an ape, and how come he didn’t become one of us?”

That statement qualifies as "not even wrong". It is so stupid that it would have to float up to the surface of wrongness to even be minimally recognized as wrong.

Where in the TOE does it ever say that any animal, in the course of a lifetime, "turns into another animal"? And who are those people who think human beings used to be gorillas? What a maroon.

And a malicious misleading maroon, because he knows full well that the TOE says nothing like that at all.  &)
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Offline jdawg70

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Re: Evolution Explained
« Reply #539 on: June 01, 2016, 05:23:29 PM »
Rush Limbaugh uses Cincinnati Gorilla tragedy to show his ignorance on evolution:

Rush Limbaugh: “Don’t doubt me on this. A lot of people think that all of us used to be gorillas, and they’re looking for the missing link out there. The evolution crowd. They think we were originally apes... If we were the original apes, then how come Harambe is still an ape, and how come he didn’t become one of us?”

Salon article:
http://www.salon.com/2016/06/01/rush_limbaugh_is_a_moron_evolution_is_false_because_cincinnati_zoo_gorilla_never_turned_into_a_human/

I have to believe that Rush is either joking or paying lip-service to his audience.  Either that or he has handlers.  I don't know how else to explain how he can possibly have this idiocy rattling around in his noggin and not manage to kill himself trying to pick his teeth with a butcher's knife.
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Online CrystalDragon

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Re: Evolution Explained
« Reply #540 on: June 01, 2016, 05:24:53 PM »
I almost physically facepalmed when I read that post, Lori. He clearly does not know a thing about how evolution works. It's change over time, not change within one generation. It's like he expects it to be like how "evolution" is in Pokemon. &) (For the record by the way I love Pokemon)

I heard about what happened with Harambe on the news yesterday, yeah it's a subject of controversy but I'm glad the 4-year-old boy is safe.
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Offline velkyn

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Re: Evolution Explained
« Reply #541 on: June 01, 2016, 05:50:44 PM »
Rush Limbaugh uses Cincinnati Gorilla tragedy to show his ignorance on evolution:

Rush Limbaugh: “Don’t doubt me on this. A lot of people think that all of us used to be gorillas, and they’re looking for the missing link out there. The evolution crowd. They think we were originally apes... If we were the original apes, then how come Harambe is still an ape, and how come he didn’t become one of us?”

yep, there we go with a TrueChristian telling lies.  They depend on stupidity, ignorance and fear. 
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