Author Topic: My Big Question For Athiests  (Read 7247 times)

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Offline swordcrasher

My Big Question For Athiests
« on: October 08, 2009, 07:58:22 PM »
Hey I have a question for all the Athiests on this board.

Athiests and Creationists argue for countless hours hitting all sorts of different topics.

One topic I've never seen is this simple question that no Athiest has ever been able to answer




Why does the Universe and Math "Work"???
When I say this I am speaking of scientific laws and principles. Things that never cease to be true. Math, science always the same.

I've seen a few articles on the topic on scientific websites and the likes. Athiest ones too.......
And I've seen some highly respected scientists dumbfounded by this question

You can talk about how scientific laws and principles give way to this or that or this law explains that. blah blah

But have you ever stopped to ask yourself, why does it work????

How does it work??????







There is ABSOLUTELY NO scientific reason why TVs shouldn't fly and humans spontaneously grow wins.

Why black holes wouldn't open up in your lawn and your grass mutate into mice overnight.

The only reason we have to believe this shouldn't happen is because by observation we see it just doesn't. So we assume it must be a law and a fact.


The whole fabric of science itself is based on these laws being consistent and there is no reason they should stay that way.


In my opinion there is nothing you can say to explain this besides stutter and come up with some whacky reason but please attempt to do so.






This is a MAJOR flaw in Science and Evolutionism. If anyone would like to attempt to rationalize this behavior of the universe please explain.


Please read the ENTIRE post before commenting. Thanks for your time :)

Offline KNOX

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Re: My Big Question For Athiests
« Reply #1 on: October 08, 2009, 08:13:57 PM »
I ask myself these questions all the time.

Why doesn't a black hole open up in my lawn?
I argue that Maths works because God invented it to keep everything in order.

Offline PinkMilk

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Re: My Big Question For Athiests
« Reply #2 on: October 08, 2009, 08:14:47 PM »
Why does the Universe and Math "Work"???
When I say this I am speaking of scientific laws and principles. Things that never cease to be true. Math, science always the same.

I've seen a few articles on the topic on scientific websites and the likes. Athiest ones too.......
And I've seen some highly respected scientists dumbfounded by this question

You can talk about how scientific laws and principles give way to this or that or this law explains that. blah blah

But have you ever stopped to ask yourself, why does it work????

How does it work??????
I'm not entirely to sure what you're asking specifically.  Science seeks to explain how things work and why they work.  Mathematical equations can be used to show that they are true.  If the mathematical equation wasn't true, it wouldn't hold up for every instance.
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There is ABSOLUTELY NO scientific reason why TVs shouldn't fly and humans spontaneously grow wins.
First off I'm assuming you meant wings.  But there are reasons for this.  Number one, a television is an inanimate object, it is not aerodynamic, it does possess the properties to obtain lift, etc.  The second one, nothing spontaneously grows anything.  There is no need for humans to have wings.  While it would be pretty kick ass, it is not necessary to our evolution.  
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Why black holes wouldn't open up in your lawn and your grass mutate into mice overnight.
If you really see no reason for things like this to happen, then why aren't you walking around in constant fear of what might happen?  You aren't.  You know that these things are impossible.  Why?  Because science and our knowledge of the world has shown how these things work, why they are the way they are.  There are certain conditions that must be present for a black hole to appear.  Plants don't change into mammals.  It doesn't happen.  The history of the earth along with our scientific knowledge shows this.  If you have evidence to the contrary, that there is really no scientific reason why these things shouldn't happen, then please present.  But it really sounds to me like you're blowing a lot of steam out your ass in an attempt to try to prove science is ridiculous.
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The only reason we have to believe this shouldn't happen is because by observation we see it just doesn't. So we assume it must be a law and a fact.
You're right, a lot of it is by our observations.  But we also understand how certain things happen.  We understand where grass comes from, how it grows, etc.  We understand what black holes are, we understand how they are formed, etc.  You get the idea.  
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The whole fabric of science itself is based on these laws being consistent and there is no reason they should stay that way.
And what scientific law have you known to just abruptly change?  Science changes with our knowledge of the world.  There are reasons why some things are labeled as constants and why some things are labeled as variables.  Science acknowledges these things.
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In my opinion there is nothing you can say to explain this besides stutter and come up with some whacky reason but please attempt to do so.
Aside from being dumbfounded at the sheer stupidity of this question, I've done none of these things.  
Quote
This is a MAJOR flaw in Science and Evolutionism. If anyone would like to attempt to rationalize this behavior of the universe please explain.
There is no such thing as evolutionism, and evolution has nothing to do with any of the arguments that you are making.  You are making one of the cliche creationist moves, which is trying to attach things to an area of science in which they are not related.  It is not a flaw, it is simply something that you fail to understand.
I can see where your coming from but on the other hand i dont want my kid to learn about evolution or see homosexualisom talked about in a scince classs ethier. <-- From Youguysarepathetic

At least I have a mother. Have you? (serious question) <---From Skylark889

Offline GetMeThere

Re: My Big Question For Athiests
« Reply #3 on: October 08, 2009, 08:28:24 PM »
@swordcrasher re: your "Big Question for Athiests"

1) Your first question perhaps should be: How does one spell "atheist."

2) Regarding the others "big" questions.....oh christ....they're really too stupid to answer. Oh, HEY, I have a great answer: The universe and math "work" because they were designed by some supernatural guy! Good, huh!!! And HE works because he was designed by some supernatural guy...and HE works because.....
« Last Edit: October 08, 2009, 09:28:54 PM by GetMeThere »

Offline Master

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Re: My Big Question For Athiests
« Reply #4 on: October 08, 2009, 08:31:06 PM »
Why does the Universe and Math "Work"???
That is really the one of the biggest questions ever to be thought of, the deterministic laws of the materialistic universe determine absolutely everything within its boundaries, everything is determined through the laws of science, even those we haven't discovered yet, but what determine these laws, why is the "circumference diameter ratio" is exactly pi, why is gravity and Coulomb  constants the values they are "regardless of our definition to units", yes that is a major question that almost impossible to answer, but I often feel, is the question even right\rational to ask?
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Offline pianodwarf

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Re: My Big Question For Athiests
« Reply #5 on: October 08, 2009, 08:31:49 PM »
Hey I have a question for all the Athiests on this board.

Athiests and Creationists argue for countless hours hitting all sorts of different topics.

One topic I've never seen is this simple question that no Athiest has ever been able to answer

What question is that?  The question of why religionists are so ignorant about atheism that some of them can't even spell it, let alone understand it?  You're right, that is a pretty big mystery.
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Offline RaptorJesus

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Jamie: I understanding these things [SCUBA tanks] have about a million—or actually, it's 1.3 million—pounds of explosive force. I'm not sure what that means, but it sounds like a lot.

Offline Nick

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Re: My Big Question For Athiests
« Reply #7 on: October 08, 2009, 08:43:09 PM »
My answer is: green ;)
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

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Offline Backspace

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Re: My Big Question For Athiests
« Reply #8 on: October 08, 2009, 08:49:11 PM »
I actually did have a black hole open up in my yard just last week.  Praise Jeebus it was only a small one -- I filled it back in again with some mulch and fresh mums.
There is no opinion so absurd that a preacher could not express it.
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Offline RaptorJesus

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Re: My Big Question For Athiests
« Reply #9 on: October 08, 2009, 08:50:54 PM »
I actually did have a black hole open up in my yard just last week.  Praise Jeebus it was just a small one -- I filled it back in again with some mulch and fresh mums.

the Cretaceous one left it to get rid of the protesters ;)
Jamie: I understanding these things [SCUBA tanks] have about a million—or actually, it's 1.3 million—pounds of explosive force. I'm not sure what that means, but it sounds like a lot.

Offline KNOX

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Re: My Big Question For Athiests
« Reply #10 on: October 08, 2009, 08:52:30 PM »
This reminds me of that scene from 'Back To School' with Rodney Dangerfield.

"Mr. Mellon, I have but one question...in 37 parts."
I argue that Maths works because God invented it to keep everything in order.

Offline James007

Re: My Big Question For Athiests
« Reply #11 on: October 08, 2009, 08:53:58 PM »
I always find it interesting that when Atheist get asked hard questions they always try and blur the issue to hide the fact that they can't answer the question.

He is talking about fundamental laws in our world.

Birds fly because of aerodynamics. God created DNA that creates the perfect wing for the type of flying they do. Any shorter/longer/heavier etc and they won't fly. That is what he is talking about. Absolutes.

I argue that Maths works because God invented it to keep everything in order. Without it nothing works.

I would be interested to see how an atheist would present an argument against this to be honest.  

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And what scientific law have you known to just abruptly change?

No scientific law has changed since the beginning of time. Birds flew 2000 years ago for the same reason they do today. Fish keep swimming. Grass keeps growing.

Just because we don't understand it or can't explain it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. 2000 years they didn't know (well at least we assume they didn't) why birds flew. Today we do.   The laws of science don't change just our understanding changes. The law remains the same.

How does an Atheist explain these things? If there is no God nothing came from nothing where do the laws of our world come from. Why do birds fly? Why do fish swim? Why does grass grow?



Offline Emily

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Re: My Big Question For Athiests
« Reply #12 on: October 08, 2009, 08:57:51 PM »
Quote
How does an Atheist explain these things? If there is no God nothing came from nothing where do the laws of our world come from. Why do birds fly? Why do fish swim? Why does grass grow?

Who ever said that nothing came from nothing? That is such a strawman arguement and creationists love to use it.

Don't creationists believe in creation ex nihilo?
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Offline KNOX

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Re: My Big Question For Athiests
« Reply #13 on: October 08, 2009, 08:59:24 PM »
How come there are no green people?
I argue that Maths works because God invented it to keep everything in order.

Offline Ashe

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Re: My Big Question For Athiests
« Reply #14 on: October 08, 2009, 09:00:39 PM »
Why do birds fly? Why do fish swim? Why does grass grow?

Well, why not?
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Offline William

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Re: My Big Question For Athiests
« Reply #15 on: October 08, 2009, 09:03:30 PM »
Birds fly because of aerodynamics. God created DNA that creates the perfect wing for the type of flying they do. Any shorter/longer/heavier etc and they won't fly.

So god fucked up with the DNA of flightless birds such as the ostrich and the emu  :?  No wonder they always look a bit miffed  :-\



Git mit uns

Offline KNOX

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Re: My Big Question For Athiests
« Reply #16 on: October 08, 2009, 09:04:18 PM »
F'ing hilarious picture!  It is now my desktop background.
I argue that Maths works because God invented it to keep everything in order.

Offline Master

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Re: My Big Question For Athiests
« Reply #17 on: October 08, 2009, 09:09:31 PM »
I argue that Maths works because God invented it to keep everything in order. Without it nothing works.

I object to this, "1=1", 1 would never cease to equal itself in any world, universe or existence
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"a man can surely do what he wills to do, but cannot determine what he wills."
http://www.determinism.com/05042002.shtml

Offline KNOX

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Re: My Big Question For Athiests
« Reply #18 on: October 08, 2009, 09:10:59 PM »
I argue that Maths works because God invented it to keep everything in order. Without it nothing works.

I object to this, "1=1", 1 would never cease to equal itself in any world, universe or existence

You aren't understanding the question right.
I argue that Maths works because God invented it to keep everything in order.

Offline Barracuda

Re: My Big Question For Athiests
« Reply #19 on: October 08, 2009, 09:12:14 PM »
Why does the Universe and Math "Work"???
When I say this I am speaking of scientific laws and principles. Things that never cease to be true. Math, science always the same.
As for math that is easy; it only follows what humans make it. Math is a category of things that humans do (or study). Human minds shape mathematics, like imaginary numbers (i=the square root of -1) did not exist for the entirety of math, for example, they were invented as a concept somewhere along the line.

As for the physical universe, I don't know. To me it just seems like a metaphysical question like "why is there something rather than nothing?" You can ponder it all you want and some people might find it interesting but ultimately we don't have any degree of certainty and never can, so we're not going to get very far.

Offline Master

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Re: My Big Question For Athiests
« Reply #20 on: October 08, 2009, 09:15:35 PM »
You aren't understanding the question right.
How should it be understood?
Quote
"a man can surely do what he wills to do, but cannot determine what he wills."
http://www.determinism.com/05042002.shtml

Online Azdgari

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Re: My Big Question For Athiests
« Reply #21 on: October 08, 2009, 09:15:45 PM »
I argue that Maths works because God invented it to keep everything in order. Without it nothing works.
I object to this, "1=1", 1 would never cease to equal itself in any world, universe or existence

You aren't understanding the question right.

M here is unable to countenance the possibility that he may have misunderstood anything, in any way, ever.  See his other active thread for a better view.
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Offline Master

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Re: My Big Question For Athiests
« Reply #22 on: October 08, 2009, 09:18:59 PM »
M here is unable to countenance the possibility that he may have misunderstood anything, in any way, ever.  See his other active thread for a better view.
Nice advertisement!
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"a man can surely do what he wills to do, but cannot determine what he wills."
http://www.determinism.com/05042002.shtml

Offline KNOX

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Re: My Big Question For Athiests
« Reply #23 on: October 08, 2009, 09:19:42 PM »
You aren't understanding the question right.
How should it be understood?

Like this:

He isn't asking you to do math or explain math, or even numbers.  He is asking why it works and the answer is god.  
I argue that Maths works because God invented it to keep everything in order.

Offline James007

Re: My Big Question For Athiests
« Reply #24 on: October 08, 2009, 09:23:33 PM »
Quote
Who ever said that nothing came from nothing? That is such a strawman arguement and creationists love to use it.

Don't creationists believe in creation ex nihilo?

That is no straw man argument. For the Atheist argument to be true everything has to come out of nothing because ultimately there is no God or higher power to bring it into existence. So Matter, DNA etc etc just 'magically appeared' for no apparent reason.

Creationist argue that God created out of nothing. He invented it and intervened. That's totally different from saying without any input nothing appeared.

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Well, why not?

Well everything needs order and a set of rules to come about. You body wouldn't exist with out DNA. Birds don't fly without aerodynamic law. You can't not have these things and not exist.

Anyways anyone want to answer to original question?  Or do you just want to keep on blurring the issue.

Offline Master

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Re: My Big Question For Athiests
« Reply #25 on: October 08, 2009, 09:25:37 PM »
He isn't asking you to do math or explain math, or even numbers.  He is asking why it works and the answer is god.
Actually that is exactly what I understood, but I know the fact that math is totally based on the very basic axiom that one thing equals itself, any mathematical theory can be proved in detail to arrive to this axiom.
Quote
"a man can surely do what he wills to do, but cannot determine what he wills."
http://www.determinism.com/05042002.shtml

Offline GetMeThere

Re: My Big Question For Athiests
« Reply #26 on: October 08, 2009, 09:28:08 PM »
My answer is: green ;)

Good answer!!

Another is: 42  :D

Offline Emily

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Re: My Big Question For Athiests
« Reply #27 on: October 08, 2009, 09:28:15 PM »
Quote
That is no straw man argument. For the Atheist argument to be true everything has to come out of nothing because ultimately there is no God or higher power to bring it into existence. So Matter, DNA etc etc just 'magically appeared' for no apparent reason.

Ah, but yet it is a strawman. Well, actually MAYBE not. I don't know about the other atheists here but I follow science and I never heard science say that nothing came from nothing. I usually take such a statement as regarding the big bang, and even then the big bang doesn't say nothing came from nothing. The big bang states something came from a singularity; where did that come from? Science hasn't gotten that far yet.

SO tell me what scientific argument states that nothing came from nothing?

Also, still answer my question. Don't creationist believe in creation ex nihilo?
[1]
 1. FWIW: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ex_nihilo or creation out of nothing. Also, creation in this sense refers to a diety, not the laws of physics.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2009, 09:33:49 PM by Emily »
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Online Azdgari

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Re: My Big Question For Athiests
« Reply #28 on: October 08, 2009, 09:29:29 PM »
Indeed, what would God have created the universe from?
The highest moral human authority is copied by our Gandhi neurons through observation.