Author Topic: Quick Question... [#1895]  (Read 397 times)

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Offline DL

Quick Question... [#1895]
« on: October 05, 2009, 05:00:57 PM »
Let's say God isn't real, then why fight against Him???  I believe ghosts aren't
real,  I don't have any ghost traps in my house, I don't worry about a ghost getting
me when it's dark in my house...  I don't waste my time trying to prove they don't
exist though many Americans believe they do.

 

This is America, I'm a Christian I believe God is real.  You don't believe God is
real and that's fine, that's your right as an American.  You say you don't believe
in God, but secretly I think you do, maybe right???  If He's not real then why is it
you believe He's so dangerous???  If religion is just a fad then it will die off
like every other fad, right???  No one had to fight against those hideous bell
bottom jeans they wore in the 60's and they went away, thank God...LOL

 

Don't get me wrong I'm not ridiculing your point, or bashing you, or anything of
that nature I'm just curious why you would dedicate so much time and so many
resources to fighting something that's not real???  It just seems a little crazy to
me (crazy figuratively speaking).  Also some of the points you made about the
killing and keeping the Sabbath and such like were taking completely out of context.
 I'm not a Harvard Graduate but then again Ted Kennedy went to Harvard and got in
with a C average from high school...LOL 

 

My point is I've read the bible and according to my sense of reasoning you took all
of your comparisons out of context.  The killing hole towns, back then (Old
Testament Times) there was no federal government no law, people did all sorts of
crazy things.  God only told the Israelites to kill those people after they had been
given a myriad of chances to change.  Or the Sabbath, that's an Old Testament Law
that the Jews were to keep (not gentiles like us), it's no longer to be keep by pain
of death in this dispensation of time (This being the New Testament).  There are
just a lot of things on your site that just don't jive with the bible...

 

However, all things aside, let's get back to my original question...if God isn't
real why fight against him???  The church I go to/and those I've went to, we invite
people to church, they either come or they don't it's up to them.  We dont' hound
people or tell them they're going to hell or whatever.  I don't know where they're
going, I don't know they're future, you can gage it by the bible but you don't know
for sure nothing's written in stone...LOL   I'm just trying to help them live
happier more productive lives.  That's why God doesn't just get rid of cancer or
make all the missing arms grow back with one prayer, there is a thing called
individual responsibility.  I know that's a new concept here in America these days
but that's the fact jack, the individual is responsible for their own salvation
and/or personal well being.

 

How about this, today, don't pray for everyone else...pray for yourself and see what
happens.  Pray to God, God if you are or aren't really make it all clear to me and
me personally.  I'm not asking this for anyone else just me, speak to ME
PERSONALLY...

[name]

Offline omniweasel

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Re: Quick Question... [#1895]
« Reply #1 on: October 05, 2009, 05:16:46 PM »
First of all God is not dangerous, because god does not exist. belief in god is dangerous. Hitler was just a fad, i suppose we wouldn't have had to fight against him either. besides if we're not going to goto hell then why should we believe in god?

Offline Ada-B

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Re: Quick Question... [#1895]
« Reply #2 on: October 05, 2009, 05:19:02 PM »
I write loooong posts, and your's isn't "quick" by any stretch of the imagination. I am not fighting a non-existent God, spaghetti monster, fairy... because they are non-existent. Obviously.
"It is not power that corrupts but fear," Aung San Suu Kyi, Burmese Opposition leader

"I refuse to fight a battle of wits with an unarmed man," Oscar Wilde.

Offline Nick

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Re: Quick Question... [#1895]
« Reply #3 on: October 05, 2009, 05:20:07 PM »
Your God is not dangerous...his followers are.  That's the problem.  Christians seem to like imposing their beliefs on everyone else.  Abortion rights, prayer in school, sex education (or a lack of it), who can marry and who can't, etc.

Do your thing in your churches and live your life as you wish and stop imposing it on others and we can finally agree on something.
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

Tide goes in, tide goes out !!!

Offline DisdainDavid

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Re: Quick Question... [#1895]
« Reply #4 on: October 05, 2009, 05:22:02 PM »
Let's say God isn't real, then why fight against Him???  I believe ghosts aren't
real,  I don't have any ghost traps in my house, I don't worry about a ghost getting
me when it's dark in my house...  I don't waste my time trying to prove they don't
exist though many Americans believe they do.
Well last time I checked people who believe in ghosts weren't trying to pass legislation to impose their views on you.
Quote
This is America, I'm a Christian I believe God is real.  You don't believe God is
real and that's fine, that's your right as an American.  You say you don't believe
in God, but secretly I think you do, maybe right???  If He's not real then why is it
you believe He's so dangerous??? 
God is not dangerous, because god does not exist.  People who believe in god are dangerous, for the about mentioned reasons.
Quote
Don't get me wrong I'm not ridiculing your point, or bashing you, or anything of
that nature I'm just curious why you would dedicate so much time and so many
resources to fighting something that's not real???  It just seems a little crazy to
me (crazy figuratively speaking).  Also some of the points you made about the
killing and keeping the Sabbath and such like were taking completely out of context.
 I'm not a Harvard Graduate but then again Ted Kennedy went to Harvard and got in
with a C average from high school...LOL 
They where taken out of context?  I'm not sure how much context you can give to people killing other people for violating the commandments of the imaginary god.
Quote

My point is I've read the bible and according to my sense of reasoning you took all
of your comparisons out of context.  The killing hole towns, back then (Old
Testament Times) there was no federal government no law, people did all sorts of
crazy things.  God only told the Israelites to kill those people after they had been
given a myriad of chances to change.  Or the Sabbath, that's an Old Testament Law
that the Jews were to keep (not gentiles like us), it's no longer to be keep by pain
of death in this dispensation of time (This being the New Testament).  There are
just a lot of things on your site that just don't jive with the bible...
So it's okay to be a genocide committing, infant killing, rapist as long as it's for god?
Quote
However, all things aside, let's get back to my original question...if God isn't
real why fight against him???  The church I go to/and those I've went to, we invite
people to church, they either come or they don't it's up to them.  We dont' hound
people or tell them they're going to hell or whatever.  I don't know where they're
going, I don't know they're future, you can gage it by the bible but you don't know
for sure nothing's written in stone...LOL   I'm just trying to help them live
happier more productive lives.  That's why God doesn't just get rid of cancer or
make all the missing arms grow back with one prayer, there is a thing called
individual responsibility.  I know that's a new concept here in America these days
but that's the fact jack, the individual is responsible for their own salvation
and/or personal well being.
Again, we worry about it because the religious do care, and attempt to impose their misogynistic, xenophobic, homophobic bronze age goat herder religion on the rest of us.
Quote


How about this, today, don't pray for everyone else...pray for yourself and see what
happens.  Pray to God, God if you are or aren't really make it all clear to me and
me personally.  I'm not asking this for anyone else just me, speak to ME
PERSONALLY...
Many of us here have already tried that, god does not speak to anyone, because it is imaginary.  That being said, why would we be praying for everyone else?  Atheists don't believe in god.
I will stop to contribute in this thread until some one shows up and seem to have brain. -- Master

It's a shame how you put your trust in theories that keep on changing. Bible has stayed the same for thousands of years [. . .]  -- Skylark889

Offline HAL

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Re: Quick Question... [#1895]
« Reply #5 on: October 05, 2009, 05:22:19 PM »

This is America, I'm a Christian I believe God is real.  You don't believe God is
real and that's fine, that's your right as an American.  


But you get to have "In God We Trust" printed on the money. What if I don't want to read that anymore? Is that my right to have it removed?

Offline Dkit

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Re: Quick Question... [#1895]
« Reply #6 on: October 05, 2009, 06:53:36 PM »
Quote
Let's say God isn't real, then why fight against Him??? 


Sarah Palin, Westboro Baptist Church, George W. Bush, 9/11, the caning of a beer drinking Muslim woman in Malaysia, the Taliban, homophobia, stifling science education to teach creationism, abstinence only education. . .I could go on.

Religion does no harm. . .Does it?

God isn't real, but his followers are.
"The Bible is a Banquet table not a snack tray!" - Anonymous Facebook User

Offline Emily

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Re: Quick Question... [#1895]
« Reply #7 on: October 05, 2009, 07:01:05 PM »
Quote
Let's say God isn't real, then why fight against Him???

If god isn't real, the god of the bible IS worth fighting against. I really wouldn't want to spend eternity in heaven with him or Jesus.
"Great moments are born from great opportunities." Herb Brooks

I edit a lot of my posts. The reason being it to add content or to correct grammar/wording. All edits to remove wording get a strike through through the wording.

Offline Ashe

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Re: Quick Question... [#1895]
« Reply #8 on: October 05, 2009, 07:27:38 PM »
My point is I've read the bible and according to my sense of reasoning you took all
of your comparisons out of context.  The killing hole towns, back then (Old
Testament Times) there was no federal government no law, people did all sorts of
crazy things.  God only told the Israelites to kill those people after they had been
given a myriad of chances to change.  Or the Sabbath, that's an Old Testament Law
that the Jews were to keep (not gentiles like us), it's no longer to be keep by pain
of death in this dispensation of time (This being the New Testament).  There are
just a lot of things on your site that just don't jive with the bible...

I don't see the difference between back then and now. Back then God deemed it appropriate to slaughter entire populations, including innocents (consider the flood - babies, very young children, unborn children in pregnant women, etc - died with everyone else; were they deserving of such a horrible death?). Things that were punishable by death back then aren't now? Why would an unchanging God change his mind?

You ask why atheists spend time on the subject. The answer is because it affects us. Religion affects us. It affects everyone. Ask the school children who can't learn about well-founded science in the classroom because it goes against something written in an old book of superstition. Ask me, who can't marry the woman of her dreams because someone else deems it inappropriate. Ask the people who went to work one Tuesday morning in September in 2001.

Why do we care? Because it matters.
2 miles!
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Offline Astreja

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Re: Quick Question... [#1895]
« Reply #9 on: October 05, 2009, 08:46:26 PM »
Let's say God isn't real, then why fight against Him???

I'm not fighting your hypothetical god.

I'm fighting the overzealous followers who try to force mythology into science classes; who don't want GLBT individuals to marry the people they love; who frighten small children by telling them that they deserve to be burned forever; who are looking forward to the end of the world.  They, not an unproven god, are the real problem.
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Offline Hermes

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Re: Quick Question... [#1895]
« Reply #10 on: October 05, 2009, 09:51:55 PM »
I like your direct and blunt comments.  If you have some patience yourself, and do not get irrationally angry over words and opinions, I have some blunt comments for you as well.  If you do find that you are angered, just remember the trivial moral that you learned as a kid; 'sticks and stones ... will break my bones, but words will never hurt me '.

With that out of the way, here are my answers.

Let's say God isn't real, then why fight against Him???

I don't.  That would be silly.

I'm bringing it up to my fellow human beings that some of their beliefs are incorrect.  Why?  For a variety of reasons that I'll describe later on in this message.

This is America, I'm a Christian I believe God is real.  You don't believe God is real and that's fine, that's your right as an American.

Actually, you're posting to a forum on the Internet.  That means most of the world, not just the USA.  In some of those countries, there isn't a right to free expression of belief or lack of belief.  In the case of the USA, there are areas where the right of free expression is limited.  As a US Citizen myself, I find that to be unacceptable.

You say you don't believe in God, but secretly I think you do, maybe right???

No more than deities you do not think exist such as Cthulhu, Oden, or Ahura Mazda.  After all, I'm not a Christian or even a theist any more than you are a follower or believer in those other deities -- unless you secretly do believe in them as well?  It's possible you do believe in those other deities, but unlike you I don't claim to be capable of reading minds.

If He's not real then why is it you believe He's so dangerous???  If religion is just a fad then it will die off like every other fad, right???  No one had to fight against those hideous bell bottom jeans they wore in the 60's and they went away, thank God...LOL

Well, I don't, and neither do the web site and the videos state that the Christian deity is dangerous or a fad.  The web site and videos are clear; the Christian deity named "God" is imaginary and they give reasons for why that is the case.

Don't get me wrong I'm not ridiculing your point, or bashing you, or anything of that nature I'm just curious why you would dedicate so much time and so many resources to fighting something that's not real???  It just seems a little crazy to me (crazy figuratively speaking).  Also some of the points you made about the killing and keeping the Sabbath and such like were taking completely out of context.
I'm not a Harvard Graduate but then again Ted Kennedy went to Harvard and got in with a C average from high school...LOL  

I can't speak for the author of the videos or the web site, I can only speak for myself.

My point is I've read the bible and according to my sense of reasoning you took all of your comparisons out of context.  The killing hole towns, back then (Old Testament Times) there was no federal government no law, people did all sorts of crazy things.  God only told the Israelites to kill those people after they had been given a myriad of chances to change.  Or the Sabbath, that's an Old Testament Law that the Jews were to keep (not gentiles like us), it's no longer to be keep by pain of death in this dispensation of time (This being the New Testament).  There are just a lot of things on your site that just don't jive with the bible...

Then, forget all of that for a moment.  We can get back to those details later if they become a pivotal issue.

However, all things aside, let's get back to my original question...if God isn't real why fight against him???  The church I go to/and those I've went to, we invite people to church, they either come or they don't it's up to them.  We dont' hound people or tell them they're going to hell or whatever.  I don't know where they're going, I don't know they're future, you can gage it by the bible but you don't know for sure nothing's written in stone...LOL   I'm just trying to help them live happier more productive lives.  That's why God doesn't just get rid of cancer or make all the missing arms grow back with one prayer, there is a thing called individual responsibility.  I know that's a new concept here in America these days but that's the fact jack, the individual is responsible for their own salvation and/or personal well being.

Hold that thought, I'll get back to it.  For now, I'll just say that I think you are inserting in some good ideas that do not come from your religious texts.

How about this, today, don't pray for everyone else...pray for yourself and see what happens.  Pray to God, God if you are or aren't really make it all clear to me and me personally.


I'm not a Christian, and beyond knowing that the Christian deity is imaginary, why would I pray to it over some other deity?  As there are thousands of deities.  Why the Christian one?

I'm not asking this for anyone else just me, speak to ME PERSONALLY...

If you want to talk, I'm right here.  All that I ask is that you consider the following whenever you write anything;

Quote
“I was gratified to be able to answer promptly, and I did. I said that I didn't know.”

                                                       --Mark Twain

Now, on to address the meat of your question.

There are three basic reasons that I will be glad to offer full details on;

First: I like reality and it is clear that the Christian deity is imaginary.

Second: Religion is a net negative on society, including in my home country of the USA.

Third: Christians are not dealing with the problems other Christians cause in the name of Christianity.

========================================

First: I like reality and it is clear that the Christian deity is imaginary.

Here's something I wrote earlier for someone else;

Up front: If the deity you are talking about is not the Christian deity as described in the Christian religious texts, please describe the deity or group of deities you are interested in and I'll take a look at that deity separately.

For what it's worth, some deities are consistent with reality -- such as the deity/deities of the pantheists and the deists -- yet I do not know of any that have positive and unambiguous support for them.

For now, I'll assume you are talking about the Christian deity as described in the Christian religious texts.  For that deity, the Why Won't God Heal Amputees videos and web site show the following;

If the Bible is correct, amputees getting restored limbs and other supernatural miracles should be as plentiful as confetti on the sidewalk after a parade.

Why is that?  Let's take a look at a summary of what the videos actually explain;

1. The Christian Bible has promises in it.

2. The promises are said to be kept in ambiguous situations; found keys, cancer remissions, ... .

3. The promises are not kept in unambiguous situations, such as but not limited to amputees.

What promises?  The web site's author mentions some of them;

Quote
You can see that the amputee experiment reframes our conversation. No longer are we talking about "religion" or "faith" or "God's existence". What we are talking about here is the basic human ability to process factual information. Jesus makes a number of promises about prayer in the Bible:

    * If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer. [Matthew 21:21]

    * If you ask anything in my name, I will do it. [John 14:14]

    * Ask, and it will be given you. [Matthew 7:7]

    * Nothing will be impossible to you. [Matthew 17:20]

    * Believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. [Mark 11:24]

Are Jesus' promises true or false? By looking at amputees we can see that they are false. Jesus/God never answer prayers to spontaneously restore lost limbs, despite the promises in the Bible.

If you are a believer, and if this is the first time you have thought about the situation faced by amputees seriously, you may have a set of rationalizations and excuses swirling through your head right now.

So, what can we say is possible based on comparing the promises made in the Christian Bible to the what we see in reality?  A few potential conclusions come to mind;

1. The book is wrong, but the Christian deity exists.

2. The book was right, but the Christian deity no longer honors the book though it could.

3. The book was right, but the Christian deity no longer honors the book because it can't.

4. The book is not relevant to the questions it raises because the Christian deity doesn't exist.

5. The book is not relevant to the questions it raises because some other deity or deities exist, not the Christian one, and that deity or deities don't honor what they did not sign up for.

6. The book is not relevant to the questions it raises because some other deity or deities exist, not the Christian one, and that deity or deities do honor similar promises to those who pray to them or offer some other communication or gift as a bribe for the miracle.  (Example: Hindu miracles.)

I'm going with #4.

===================================

Second: Religion is a net negative on society, including in my home country of the USA.

The reality is that religion, including Christianity, is a net negative in the world.  Why do I say that?  Studies of good and bad attributes of societies show that in total, the more religious a society the less it thrives.  Details, including searchable databases with the raw data, can be found here;

Study; More Faithful Nations Are Less Moral
High rates of atheism: low crime, higher pay, better health and education

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=2076

Some videos related to the studies;




===================================

Third: Christians are not dealing with the problems other Christians cause in the name of Christianity.

Christians seem not to be interested in morality.  They are in general not correcting the problems caused by other Christians that lead to the spread of ignorance, bigotry, harm, and death.  What do I mean?

I have noticed, as you may have as well, that there are Christians that do things in the name of Christianity that are negative.  Christians that promote bigotry and ignorance.  Christians that advocate actions that lead to harm and even death.  Christians that advocate not caring about this world and who want it to be destroyed in a polluted and fiery apocalypse.

If there were enough Christians that effectively dealt with those problems, I would not have any concerns.  Believe as you want.  As far as I would be concerned, the real world problems would be solved.

Unfortunately, that is not the world we are in.  Most Christians aren't doing nearly enough.   Many unfortunately are actively promoting these negative goals -- from paying money passively to going out and doing these negative actions themselves.  Some of the strongest advocates for those negative actions are the leaders and congregants of the larger Christian churches and organizations; this is not a problem with a few fringe groups or eccentric cult leaders.

Too many Christians not only do not take responsibility, they are leading the charge for these negative actions.  They justify bigotry and ignorance, they justify actions that result in the deaths of others that could be easily avoided.

As a responsible person, someone who cares about the world and the future of humanity, I have to act.  Even if it is not my fault that these Christians are doing harm, it is my responsibility to do something positive.  You can consider it a moral obligation.  If that means that I have to hold up a mirror so that my fellow humans look at what they believe, then I'll take that modest step.  Maybe that will be enough to drain the air out of some of those bad ideas?

My question to you is not what you believe, but what are you doing about the acts your fellow Christians perform in the name of Christianity that spread hate, bigotry, ignorance, pain, and death?
« Last Edit: October 05, 2009, 09:56:57 PM by Hermes »
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Offline Irish

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Re: Quick Question... [#1895]
« Reply #11 on: October 06, 2009, 12:38:44 AM »
Let's say God isn't real, then why fight against Him???  I believe ghosts aren't
real,  I don't have any ghost traps in my house, I don't worry about a ghost getting
me when it's dark in my house...  I don't waste my time trying to prove they don't
exist though many Americans believe they do.

Believers of ghosts don't try to influence governmental policy, stagnate school education, alter scientific knowledge, and stick their nose in the lives of peoples personal sex lives and social well being.

The religious do, do all of that.  That's the difference.

Quote
You say you don't believe in God, but secretly I think you do, maybe right???

I secretly believe in God the way you secretly believe in Allah... that is, not at all.

Quote
If He's not real then why is it you believe He's so dangerous???

He isn't dangerous.  The people that believe the shit in the Bible, take it literally, and try and press their idealogical beliefs on the rest of the world are dangerous.
La scienze non ha nemici ma gli ignoranti.