Poll

Does the big bang model state: Something Came From Nothing!?!?

Atheist: Yes
0 (0%)
Atheist: No
20 (71.4%)
Theist: Yes
2 (7.1%)
Theist: No
4 (14.3%)
Other: Yes
0 (0%)
Other: No
2 (7.1%)

Total Members Voted: 28

Author Topic: Does the big bang model state: Something Came From Nothing!?!?  (Read 5134 times)

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Offline Omen

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Please provide your answer by posting please.

My answer: Atheist No!  Of course not!  I'm sick and tired of having to go over this DOZENS of times with the SAME people over and over and over.  The big bang theory, does not say or present a case where 'something came from nothing'.
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Offline Gargaroth

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Re: Does the big bang model state: Something Came From Nothing!?!?
« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2008, 12:55:19 PM »
Who would belong to the 'other' group?
Why do you use the word 'model'?
Why insist on there being just 1 (big bang) theory?
What do you mean by 'nothing'?
« Last Edit: August 22, 2008, 12:57:13 PM by Gargaroth »

Offline Omen

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Re: Does the big bang model state: Something Came From Nothing!?!?
« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2008, 12:56:54 PM »
Who would belong to the 'other' group?

Personal bias, I think agnosticism ( in isolation ) is a fallacy of the middle ground and not applicable.  I use 'other' for anyone else that decides to label themselves as something other then theist/atheist.  Since there are individuals that would reject all on occasion, or make appeals to some other position.
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Offline Vynn

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Re: Does the big bang model state: Something Came From Nothing!?!?
« Reply #3 on: August 22, 2008, 12:58:50 PM »
Atheist; no.

I think, Omen, that a lot of christians use that because it seems to parallel their own beliefs. (Nothing physical/only god then ---> God speaks and ----> BAM!)

If i'm not mistaken, it's most often a dumb sort of "compact" equivocation. (I can't think of a better term, sorry.)

Offline Omen

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Re: Does the big bang model state: Something Came From Nothing!?!?
« Reply #4 on: August 22, 2008, 01:00:09 PM »
Atheist; no.

I think, Omen, that a lot of christians use that because it seems to parallel their own beliefs. (Nothing physical/only god then ---> God speaks and ----> BAM!)

If i'm not mistaken, it's most often a dumb sort of "compact" equivocation. (I can't think of a better term, sorry.)

Agreed, I seem to recall someone arguing against it by claiming it was a religious belief of 'ex nihilio'.  I'll have to look it up to be exactly sure what the lunatic was talking about.
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Offline Gargaroth

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Re: Does the big bang model state: Something Came From Nothing!?!?
« Reply #5 on: August 22, 2008, 01:05:10 PM »
Why do you use the word 'model'?
Why insist on there being just 1 (big bang) theory?
What do you mean by 'nothing'?

Offline Omen

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Re: Does the big bang model state: Something Came From Nothing!?!?
« Reply #6 on: August 22, 2008, 01:05:33 PM »
Why do you use the word 'model'?

The big bang theory is a model of how the universe expanded from a potential singularity.  The model is used in conjuction with scientific observations to reach a conclusion on how the universe could have formed.

Quote
Why insist on there being just 1 (big bang) theory?

There are several differeny hypothesis that attempt to distinguish how the universe expanded ( and even what shape it has ), as I recall the big bang theory is the one generally accepted in mainstream science and as a model is better capable of predicting what we observe today then others.

I am referring to 'big bang theory' singular because that is the method for which creationist often refer to it.

Quote
What do you mean by 'nothing'?

You're going to have to ask a creationist that one.  This poll is purely to demonstrate that nothing in the big bang theory states in any form or regard that 'something came from nothing'.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2008, 01:07:53 PM by Omen »
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Offline Gargaroth

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Re: Does the big bang model state: Something Came From Nothing!?!?
« Reply #7 on: August 22, 2008, 01:25:41 PM »
In that case:

Other (the definitions have no longer any meaning since they apparently can mean anything); No (Every variant of the theory points to an onset of time matter/energy and space as we observe it as a result of an occurrence; it being a singularity, a collision or something else. I must point out that 'nothing' is a relative term. Something which has no identifiable properties to us from our perspective (now) could be claimed to be 'nothing' aka not being 'something'. So even if a particular variant of the theory would deal with a state of nothingness prior to the big bang, it is not to be taken in the same way of 'nothing' purely in accordance to our restricted realm of observation here and now.

Offline rickymooston

Re: Does the big bang model state: Something Came From Nothing!?!?
« Reply #8 on: August 22, 2008, 01:32:55 PM »
Please provide your answer by posting please.

My answer: Atheist No!  Of course not!  I'm sick and tired of having to go over this DOZENS of times with the SAME people over and over and over.  The big bang theory, does not say or present a case where 'something came from nothing'.

Well, you should have option ...

I don't really know.

I mean, big bang model seems to say, "wow", for some reason, "all matter", was "apprarently, in "one place". Now its not.

No matter how you slice it, whatever theory we come up with, we will either get:
1) something always was; i.e., some definition of "time" was infinite
2) everything suddently was. Or which case, "everything" came from nothing.

From that point of view, big bang, god theory, whatever all the same. Don't make sense.


I will however vote "No" since big bang theory does not say where everything came from.
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Offline Gargaroth

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Re: Does the big bang model state: Something Came From Nothing!?!?
« Reply #9 on: August 22, 2008, 01:34:48 PM »
Please provide your answer by posting please.

My answer: Atheist No!  Of course not!  I'm sick and tired of having to go over this DOZENS of times with the SAME people over and over and over.  The big bang theory, does not say or present a case where 'something came from nothing'.

Well, you should have option ...

I don't really know.

I mean, big bang model seems to say, "wow", for some reason, "all matter", was "apprarently, in "one place". Now its not.

No matter how you slice it, whatever theory we come up with, we will either get:
1) something always was; i.e., some definition of "time" was infinite
2) everything suddently was. Or which case, "everything" came from nothing.

From that point of view, big bang, god theory, whatever all the same. Don't make sense.


I will however vote "No" since big bang theory does not say where everything came from.


Only to those who can't think outside of the outside of the box

Offline Shakaib

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Re: Does the big bang model state: Something Came From Nothing!?!?
« Reply #10 on: August 22, 2008, 01:36:40 PM »


Jeez Omen


Offline Omen

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Re: Does the big bang model state: Something Came From Nothing!?!?
« Reply #11 on: August 22, 2008, 01:37:54 PM »
Well, you should have option ...

I don't really know.

You can simply go look it up, and discover that it does not say what is claimed.  What is stopping you from looking it up?

Quote
I mean, big bang model seems to say, "wow", for some reason, "all matter", was "apprarently, in "one place". Now its not.

Irrelevant.  It does not say 'something came from nothing'.

Quote
No matter how you slice it, whatever theory we come up with, we will either get:
1) something always was; i.e., some definition of "time" was infinite
2) everything suddently was. Or which case, "everything" came from nothing.

Irrelevant.  it does not say 'something came from nothing' and simply presents a situation where we can explain things up to a point then we inevitably say 'we dont know'.  At no time or point was the assertion,"Something came from nothing" ever made.

Quote
From that point of view, big bang, god theory, whatever all the same. Don't make sense.

Except, the big bang theory is an actual testable and falsifiable hypothesis ( before it became scientific 'theory' ).

God, isn't even a testable hypothesis much less theory.  They are not comparable in any form of claiming to 'have knowledge', but more importantly this has nothing to do with demonstrating that the big bang theory states,"Something came from nothing."
"Religious faith is the antithesis to knowledge, it is the opposition to education, and it has to act in animosity against the free exchange of ideas.  Why? Because those things are what cause harm to a religions place in society most." - Me

Offline Omen

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Re: Does the big bang model state: Something Came From Nothing!?!?
« Reply #12 on: August 22, 2008, 01:38:46 PM »
Trolling, Personal Attacks, Spam

I am reporting you.
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Offline Gargaroth

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Re: Does the big bang model state: Something Came From Nothing!?!?
« Reply #13 on: August 22, 2008, 01:40:09 PM »

Offline Shakaib

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Re: Does the big bang model state: Something Came From Nothing!?!?
« Reply #14 on: August 22, 2008, 01:46:02 PM »
Maybe it's called joking

Offline Gargaroth

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Re: Does the big bang model state: Something Came From Nothing!?!?
« Reply #15 on: August 22, 2008, 01:47:35 PM »
Maybe it's called joking

Then you desperately need to get a sense of humor..

Offline Red McWilliams

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Re: Does the big bang model state: Something Came From Nothing!?!?
« Reply #16 on: August 22, 2008, 01:51:31 PM »
I thought stick-figure Omen was pretty funny.

And I voted "atheist, no".
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Offline rickymooston

Re: Does the big bang model state: Something Came From Nothing!?!?
« Reply #17 on: August 22, 2008, 01:59:28 PM »
I thought stick-figure Omen was pretty funny.

And I voted "atheist, no".

I thought it was pretty funny too. Further's ricky's hypothesis that we have a sockpuppeting troll on our hands. However, it is an entertaining one.
"i had learn to focus i what i could do rather what i couldn't do", Rick Hansen when asked about getting a disabling spinal cord injury at 15. He continues to raise money for spinal cord research and inspire peoople to "make a difference". He doesnt preach any religion.

Offline rickymooston

Re: Does the big bang model state: Something Came From Nothing!?!?
« Reply #18 on: August 22, 2008, 02:04:32 PM »
You can simply go look it up, and discover that it does not say what is claimed.  What is stopping you from looking it up?

Have done so in past. Have general idea what it says. :D.

Quote
Irrelevant.  It does not say 'something came from nothing'.

True., however, someone may take that as a "corrolary of it. That is why I'd "unask" the question.

Quote
Irrelevant.  it does not say 'something came from nothing' and simply presents a situation where we can explain things up to a point then we inevitably say 'we dont know'.  At no time or point was the assertion,"Something came from nothing" ever made.

True.

Quote
Except, the big bang theory is an actual testable and falsifiable hypothesis ( before it became scientific 'theory' ).

True.

Quote
God, isn't even a testable hypothesis much less theory.  They are not comparable in any form of claiming to 'have knowledge', but more importantly this has nothing to do with demonstrating that the big bang theory states,"Something came from nothing."

Agree. Its a theory, its not really testable. You can't do much with it.

The interpretation was that as a corollary of the big bang, people make that claim.

In actual fact, the big bang, does not say where all this matter came from. Its says, what can't know and that its a singularity.
"i had learn to focus i what i could do rather what i couldn't do", Rick Hansen when asked about getting a disabling spinal cord injury at 15. He continues to raise money for spinal cord research and inspire peoople to "make a difference". He doesnt preach any religion.

Offline Vynn

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Re: Does the big bang model state: Something Came From Nothing!?!?
« Reply #19 on: August 22, 2008, 04:44:03 PM »
Agreed, I seem to recall someone arguing against it by claiming it was a religious belief of 'ex nihilio'.  I'll have to look it up to be exactly sure what the lunatic was talking about.

It wasn't me a year and a half ago, was it? Good grief i hope not.  :-[

Offline Seppuku

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Re: Does the big bang model state: Something Came From Nothing!?!?
« Reply #20 on: August 22, 2008, 05:09:53 PM »
Big Bang theory - I don't think it ever claimed that the matter was created, even scientists are willing to accept time before the big bang, but such a thing would be beyond any human understanding. From my actual reading of it (from Stephen Hawkings' book) it's really responsible for causing the state of the universe - not necessarily creating something from nothing.

Creating something from nothing is what a creationist believes scientists know no better than you or I if the universe was created, but we all have arguments for an against at the end of the day.
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Offline JTW

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Re: Does the big bang model state: Something Came From Nothing!?!?
« Reply #21 on: August 23, 2008, 02:47:11 PM »
Why do you use the word 'model'?

The big bang theory is a model of how the universe expanded from a potential singularity.  The model is used in conjuction with scientific observations to reach a conclusion on how the universe could have formed.

Quote
Why insist on there being just 1 (big bang) theory?

There are several differeny hypothesis that attempt to distinguish how the universe expanded ( and even what shape it has ), as I recall the big bang theory is the one generally accepted in mainstream science and as a model is better capable of predicting what we observe today then others.

I am referring to 'big bang theory' singular because that is the method for which creationist often refer to it.

Quote
What do you mean by 'nothing'?

You're going to have to ask a creationist that one.  This poll is purely to demonstrate that nothing in the big bang theory states in any form or regard that 'something came from nothing'.

All theists really want to know is where it DID come from then.

Offline Vynn

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Re: Does the big bang model state: Something Came From Nothing!?!?
« Reply #22 on: August 23, 2008, 04:02:05 PM »
All theists really want to know is where it DID come from then.

All theists NEED to know, is that it's unknown, at this time. No reason to make shit up.

Offline Gargaroth

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Re: Does the big bang model state: Something Came From Nothing!?!?
« Reply #23 on: August 23, 2008, 04:31:56 PM »
All theists really want to know is where it DID come from then.

All theists NEED to know, is that it's unknown, at this time. No reason to make s**t up.

Curious that such a simple message keeps falling on deaf ears...what are they afraid to lose?

Offline Vynn

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Re: Does the big bang model state: Something Came From Nothing!?!?
« Reply #24 on: August 23, 2008, 05:27:05 PM »
Curious that such a simple message keeps falling on deaf ears...what are they afraid to lose?

It's because the shit that they make up makes them feel secure. So they spread it all around, and over themselves, and make their bed in it.

It takes intelligence and courage to admit ignorance on a specific issue; qualities that many theists and a quite a lot of religious minded atheists lack.

Offline Gargaroth

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Re: Does the big bang model state: Something Came From Nothing!?!?
« Reply #25 on: August 23, 2008, 05:30:42 PM »
Curious that such a simple message keeps falling on deaf ears...what are they afraid to lose?

It's because the s**t that they make up makes them feel secure. So they spread it all around, and over themselves, and make their bed in it.

It takes intelligence and courage to admit ignorance on a specific issue; qualities that many theists and a quite a lot of religious minded atheists lack.

Quite right professor...

Do you feel this is a war? and if so...how are we doing?

Offline Vynn

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Re: Does the big bang model state: Something Came From Nothing!?!?
« Reply #26 on: August 23, 2008, 05:32:35 PM »
Quite right professor...

Do you feel this is a war? and if so...how are we doing?


It depends on what you mean by "this", but if you mean atheism vs theism, then yes, it's a war, and it's too early to tell as there are so many unknown variables.

Offline Gargaroth

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Re: Does the big bang model state: Something Came From Nothing!?!?
« Reply #27 on: August 23, 2008, 05:43:18 PM »
Quite right professor...

Do you feel this is a war? and if so...how are we doing?


It depends on what you mean by "this", but if you mean atheism vs theism, then yes, it's a war, and it's too early to tell as there are so many unknown variables.

Indeed, I see..well...let's pray for a decent outcome then..

I once was drafted to be examined by the army as was a custom back then, they used the birthdate of us lads to appear to their bastion. When you make a selection like this, you get an awfully good impression of the average human being in term of intelligence. lemme just say that I wasn't positively impressed. Which leads me to my next question...how does one fight rudimentary stupidity?

Offline Vynn

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Re: Does the big bang model state: Something Came From Nothing!?!?
« Reply #28 on: August 23, 2008, 05:45:43 PM »
Which leads me to my next question...how does one fight rudimentary stupidity?


Hmm. Without pondering it too much, i'm inclined to say that we should honor excellence, education, and merit based systems.