Author Topic: A fine tuned universe.  (Read 13652 times)

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Offline Shakaib

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Re: A fine tuned universe.
« Reply #203 on: October 10, 2008, 03:01:26 PM »
It seems like he contradicts himself sometimes. But the Bible proves him wrong:

"In the beginning God created the Heavens and the Earth"

Einstein said he doesn't believe in a personal God but does believe in a sort of higher being (in his standards).

The Bible still proved him wrong.

Shakaib, would you stop trolling various threads with the same post? We are well aware the bible says Elohim created the heavens and earth. We are also aware that snakes and donkeys talked in the bible too. Just because someone wrote something proves nothing.

Sorry, It's quite fun though. Many people take it seriously!! lol!

Offline Inactive_A

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Re: A fine tuned universe.
« Reply #204 on: October 10, 2008, 03:32:32 PM »
Shakaib suspended for trolling.

Offline xphobe

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Re: A fine tuned universe.
« Reply #205 on: October 10, 2008, 05:52:29 PM »
I stopped believing for a little while this morning. Journey is gonna be so pissed when they find out...

Offline nihilanth

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Re: A fine tuned universe.
« Reply #206 on: October 10, 2008, 06:15:12 PM »
Oh, I'm not claiming that he didn't believe in something he called "god".  I'm asking whether they ever indicated a belief that god created the universe.

Hawking certainly did. I cannot find it though. I heard him say on tv once. He said something like, only God would know how the universe was created and that we theoretically could figure out the universe all the way back to it's point of origin, but only God would know how that point started.
You can't prove it either way so you have to make a choice.

Online Azdgari

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Re: A fine tuned universe.
« Reply #207 on: October 10, 2008, 08:32:11 PM »
That is a statement re: god's knowledge (about the creation of the universe).  It is not a statement re: god's actions (toward the creation of the universe).
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Offline nihilanth

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Re: A fine tuned universe.
« Reply #208 on: October 11, 2008, 01:36:25 PM »
That is a statement re: god's knowledge (about the creation of the universe).  It is not a statement re: god's actions (toward the creation of the universe).

Azgardi? You are just argueing for the sake of argueing. If there is a Supreme God, he would definately be responsible for the universe's creation.

But this is exactly what you do. You just argue for the sake of argueing.
You can't prove it either way so you have to make a choice.

Online Azdgari

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Re: A fine tuned universe.
« Reply #209 on: October 11, 2008, 03:33:05 PM »
Quote
If there is a Supreme God, he would definately be responsible for the universe's creation.

Non-sequiter.  If you have nothing, just say so.
The highest moral human authority is copied by our Gandhi neurons through observation.

Offline nihilanth

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Re: A fine tuned universe.
« Reply #210 on: October 11, 2008, 05:15:02 PM »
Quote
If there is a Supreme God, he would definately be responsible for the universe's creation.

Non-sequiter.  If you have nothing, just say so.

Gee, I am sorry bit I cannot dig it up because it was a televised interview. it happened, it was said and I do not have to prove it to the likes of you.
You can't prove it either way so you have to make a choice.

Online Azdgari

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Re: A fine tuned universe.
« Reply #211 on: October 11, 2008, 05:45:03 PM »
Television showed a logical connection between the existence of a supreme god and the necessity that that supreme god was responsible for creating the universe?  Wow.  What show was that on?
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Offline nihilanth

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Re: A fine tuned universe.
« Reply #212 on: October 11, 2008, 06:32:29 PM »
Television showed a logical connection between the existence of a supreme god and the necessity that that supreme god was responsible for creating the universe?  Wow.  What show was that on?

It was a fucking interview with Stephen Hawking and it was years ago and I forget what show it was.

Now smarten up or fuck off. Your choice.
You can't prove it either way so you have to make a choice.

Offline Deus ex Machina

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Re: A fine tuned universe.
« Reply #213 on: October 11, 2008, 06:46:17 PM »
It was a f**king interview with Stephen Hawking and it was years ago and I forget what show it was.

Now smarten up or f**k off. Your choice.

Okay, put the bottle down. It's not appropriate to respond in that manner when someone asks for some substantiation of a claim.
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Offline nihilanth

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Re: A fine tuned universe.
« Reply #214 on: October 11, 2008, 07:26:51 PM »
It was a f**king interview with Stephen Hawking and it was years ago and I forget what show it was.

Now smarten up or f**k off. Your choice.

Okay, put the bottle down. It's not appropriate to respond in that manner when someone asks for some substantiation of a claim.

Guilty untill proven innocent. Typical.

You can't prove it either way so you have to make a choice.

Offline Deus ex Machina

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Re: A fine tuned universe.
« Reply #215 on: October 11, 2008, 07:30:17 PM »
Guilty untill proven innocent. Typical.

Actually, 'claim is unfounded until demonstrated otherwise'. That, here, is typical. You haven't got that whole 'sceptic' thing worked out yet have you? We don't just take people's word for it.
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Offline nihilanth

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Re: A fine tuned universe.
« Reply #216 on: October 11, 2008, 07:47:27 PM »
Guilty untill proven innocent. Typical.

Actually, 'claim is unfounded until demonstrated otherwise'. That, here, is typical. You haven't got that whole 'sceptic' thing worked out yet have you? We don't just take people's word for it.

It is a shame that you have met too many liars in your lifetime. I have tried to find the interview, or the show, but I forget what it was called.

It still looks like guilty untill proven innocent to me. Well, it's like this. I know what I heard. It does not totally mean that he actually believes in God, but he has talked about God as the universes creator, however he believes that God could ont interfear with the laws of the universe, which would not let God have freedom.

He does give credit that it may have been God that initialized the universe.
You can't prove it either way so you have to make a choice.

Offline Deus ex Machina

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Re: A fine tuned universe.
« Reply #217 on: October 11, 2008, 07:52:37 PM »
It is a shame that you have met too many liars in your lifetime.

I do not consider it a shame that I am not credulous.

Quote
I have tried to find the interview, or the show, but I forget what it was called.

It still looks like guilty untill proven innocent to me. Well, it's like this. I know what I heard. It does not totally mean that he actually believes in God, but he has talked about God as the universes creator, however he believes that God could ont interfear with the laws of the universe, which would not let God have freedom.

He does give credit that it may have been God that initialized the universe.

Unfortunately, we still only have your word for it, so until this issue is resolved, it's inadmissible as evidence.
No day in which you learn something is wasted.

Offline nihilanth

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Re: A fine tuned universe.
« Reply #218 on: October 11, 2008, 08:11:46 PM »
It is a shame that you have met too many liars in your lifetime.

I do not consider it a shame that I am not credulous.

Quote
I have tried to find the interview, or the show, but I forget what it was called.

It still looks like guilty untill proven innocent to me. Well, it's like this. I know what I heard. It does not totally mean that he actually believes in God, but he has talked about God as the universes creator, however he believes that God could ont interfear with the laws of the universe, which would not let God have freedom.

He does give credit that it may have been God that initialized the universe.

Unfortunately, we still only have your word for it, so until this issue is resolved, it's inadmissible as evidence.

We. The word we. So you are not an individual but a collective group?

Tell me something, is Athesim a religion? It certainly looks like one.
You can't prove it either way so you have to make a choice.

Offline nihilanth

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Re: A fine tuned universe.
« Reply #219 on: October 11, 2008, 08:26:39 PM »
Also, Hawking actually personally believes that the universe spontaneously was created from nothing, which is totally impossible.

Are you going to ask me to prove that too?
You can't prove it either way so you have to make a choice.

Online Azdgari

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Re: A fine tuned universe.
« Reply #220 on: October 12, 2008, 12:37:31 AM »
Quote
We. The word we. So you are not an individual but a collective group?

Tell me something, is Athesim a religion? It certainly looks like one.

First of all, he said "we" because both he and I are addressing you.  That's twoWe.  Are two people who happen to address you on the same issue always their own religion, or just when it suits you?

Now, to the real issue.  You still don't seem to understand just what the issue is that you're being called on.  I am challenging you to demonstrate, logically, that a "supreme being" (your words) has to have been the creator of the universe.  I personally cannot see a necessary connection between the two.  Can you demonstrate, logically, that such a connection must exist?  If not, do you have the guts to admit that you're wrong on this point?
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Offline Deus ex Machina

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Re: A fine tuned universe.
« Reply #221 on: October 12, 2008, 06:23:15 AM »
We. The word we. So you are not an individual but a collective group?

Tell me something, is Athesim a religion? It certainly looks like one.

Sigh. "We", as in, "the other readers of this thread". I'm sure the others will forgive my presumption in claiming to speak for them if I spoke out of turn, and correct me if I'm mistaken.
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Offline xphobe

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Re: A fine tuned universe.
« Reply #222 on: October 12, 2008, 09:23:22 AM »
Also, Hawking actually personally believes that the universe spontaneously was created from nothing, which is totally impossible.

Are you going to ask me to prove that too?

http://www.hawking.org.uk/lectures/bot.html
But one wouldn't have to appeal to something outside the universe, to determine how the universe began. Instead, the way the universe started out at the Big Bang would be determined by the state of the universe in imaginary time. Thus, the universe would be a completely self-contained system.

When Hawking makes an assertion, I have confidence that quite a bit of heavy-duty mathematics and years of expert knowledge in the field of astrophysics stand behind it. 

When you make an assertion such as "What Hawking says is totally impossible", that's just you making noises.

Appeal to authority? yeah I guess.   My bad.
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Offline Cycle4Fun

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Re: A fine tuned universe.
« Reply #223 on: October 12, 2008, 12:14:39 PM »
Also, Hawking actually personally believes that the universe spontaneously was created from nothing, which is totally impossible.

Are you going to ask me to prove that too?

http://www.hawking.org.uk/lectures/bot.html
But one wouldn't have to appeal to something outside the universe, to determine how the universe began. Instead, the way the universe started out at the Big Bang would be determined by the state of the universe in imaginary time. Thus, the universe would be a completely self-contained system.

When Hawking makes an assertion, I have confidence that quite a bit of heavy-duty mathematics and years of expert knowledge in the field of astrophysics stand behind it. 

When you make an assertion such as "What Hawking says is totally impossible", that's just you making noises.

Appeal to authority? yeah I guess.   My bad.


At some point though you have to take an authority's word.  It helps that there are many other "authority's" all making sure everyone of them basis their claim off of actual evidence and logic.  That's why science has been so successful at discovering truth.  A scientist who strays from following the evidence where it leads will be ostracized from the community.

I don't take an apologist at his word for one simple reason.  My experience has shown that theists make claims without actual evidence to support those claims.  For that reason, I will never take an apologist at his word.  You ask a scientist a question and they can show you evidence.  You ask an apologist a question and they will show you an ancient book.
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Offline velkyn

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Re: A fine tuned universe.
« Reply #224 on: October 13, 2008, 09:37:17 AM »
good post, cyke.

Science works by the premise that there are more than few people who would love to disprove Hawking and take his mantle.  They have to provide evidence on why they should be considered correct. 

Apologists all insist than anyone who disagrees with them are completely wrong while insisting that their pet interpretations are completely right.  All say that they "holy spirit" tells them the "Truth".  None of them can give any reason why one of them should be beleived over the others. 
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Offline xphobe

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Re: A fine tuned universe.
« Reply #225 on: October 13, 2008, 12:37:15 PM »
Science works by the premise that there are more than few people who would love to disprove Hawking and take his mantle.  They have to provide evidence on why they should be considered correct. 

Exactly.  Scientists are like intellectual gunfighters.  I've long thought that if a scientist had good solid verifiable evidence that the universe really is only 10,000 years old and all the species had instantly appeared at some point (all issues of "gods" aside), he'd be so excited to unseat the whole of established scientific thought that he wouldn't be able to sit still!  Imagine - Proving Darwin wrong!  Proving Hawking wrong!  What an ultimate feather in one's cap!  You would be world famous for centuries.
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Offline Thanatos2

Re: A fine tuned universe.
« Reply #226 on: October 13, 2008, 02:35:09 PM »
I don't think we'll ever find the answers to any of these questions until the origin of matter is solved. I mean, we have all these constants, like the gravitational constant, that wouldn't mean jack if the universe was one big void, so we have to discover either how matter came to be, or if it's always existed.

Offline Goodkat

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Re: A fine tuned universe.
« Reply #227 on: October 16, 2008, 05:55:17 PM »
I think I have a video that addresses this thread perfectly, thanks again, to thunderf00t:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7aGEXMyFWyg&feature=PlayList&p=AC3481305829426D&index=9[/youtube]