Author Topic: A fine tuned universe.  (Read 13745 times)

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Offline Shakaib

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Re: A fine tuned universe.
« Reply #174 on: October 10, 2008, 11:20:21 AM »
No dishonesty, I typed in "zzz" first (and then pressed post). Then I typed in (as an edit):

"Don't you believe that the Universe formed by chance, or is it something else now?"

Then my Computer crashed!!

Ok fair enough, I'll retract that comment.

I have no idea what started the universe off in the first place. However, as far as can be determined, since that 'beginning' (or a few Planck instants after the 'beginning') it appears to have functioned entirely according to natural processes, of which we have varying degrees of understanding. Natural processes may be highly complex when you have a lot of parameters, but highly complex isn't the same as random. I'm not convinced that true randomness really exists on a large scale.

But could everything could have re-arranged itself so perfect? Could life have just formed by chance? is it possible. I don't think it is. I reckon God created everything. I can tell you for a fact that God is real - and He will appear on the day of judgement. The only thing that cannot be created and which has always existed can only be God. The Big Bang could have only happened if God supplied it. Other than that, it is impossible. My watch can't form by chance, even with it's complex structures which make it work. How can the Universe form by chance?? If it is impossible for a watch to form by chance, it sure is impossible for the Universe to form by chance and then re-arrange itself so we can live.

Offline Deus ex Machina

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Re: A fine tuned universe.
« Reply #175 on: October 10, 2008, 11:29:41 AM »
But could everything could have re-arranged itself so perfect?

Perfect for what, or to whom? Perfection is subjective. One person's perfect ice-cream is another person's nut allergy.

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Could life have just formed by chance? is it possible. I don't think it is.

Don't ask me; as I've already said I do not consider 'chance' to be a significant factor in natural processes. I think that even using the term 'chance' is applying to nature a variable that may not even apply.

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I reckon God created everything. I can tell you for a fact that God is real - and He will appear on the day of judgement.

Try not to confuse your opinions with facts. :)

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The only thing that cannot be created and which has always existed can only be God.

Assertion not established.

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The Big Bang could have only happened if God supplied it. Other than that, it is impossible. My watch can't form by chance, even with it's complex structures which make it work. How can the Universe form by chance?? If it is impossible for a watch to form by chance, it sure is impossible for the Universe to form by chance and then re-arrange itself so we can live.

False analogy. We know watches to be manufactured because we manufacture them. The same cannot be said of the universe.
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Offline Shakaib

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Re: A fine tuned universe.
« Reply #176 on: October 10, 2008, 11:52:35 AM »
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False analogy. We know watches to be manufactured because we manufacture them. The same cannot be said of the universe.

Why not? If he send miracles like rain (water from the sky) in such processes (the water cycle), why should we deny a higher being? of whom everywhere evidence exists. Creation requires a creator, God is the creator (of everything). There is 100% proof that life on Earth is intelligent. If man got together with all the technology and everything else, he wouldn't even be able to create a bee! not intelligent? oh, I think it is! The Universe has a creator, God doesn't. Because it's like saying "Who created the Un-creatobale", which obviously doesn't make sense. Humans have an amazing brain, but some decide to take it the wrong way. Some thank God for it.

Offline xphobe

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Re: A fine tuned universe.
« Reply #177 on: October 10, 2008, 11:55:15 AM »
I do not consider 'chance' to be a significant factor in natural processes. I think that even using the term 'chance' is applying to nature a variable that may not even apply.

You and Einstein ;)

He was never comfortable with the implications of Heisenberg's math, although in his later years he recanted his objection.

Maybe the "chance" built into the Uncertainty Principle is not chance on a deeper level.  Maybe there is an underlying order that it is impossible for us to see.

I agree that very little in nature is "chance", although systems may be so chaotic that we have no idea what the heck is going on.
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Offline Shakaib

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Re: A fine tuned universe.
« Reply #178 on: October 10, 2008, 11:58:03 AM »
Einstein was so intellient, and he believed in God. I hope he's in Heaven. Bless him.

Online Azdgari

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Re: A fine tuned universe.
« Reply #179 on: October 10, 2008, 12:15:26 PM »
Credit to Screwtape, on ATT:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24598856/

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LONDON - Albert Einstein: arch rationalist or scientist with a spiritual core?

A letter being auctioned in London this week adds more fuel to the long-simmering debate about the Nobel Prize-winning physicist's religious views. In the note, written the year before his death, Einstein dismissed the idea of God as the product of human weakness and the Bible as "pretty childish."

The letter, handwritten in German, is being sold by Bloomsbury Auctions on Thursday and is expected to fetch between $12,000 and $16,000.

Einstein, who helped unravel the mysteries of the universe with his theory of relativity, expressed complex and arguably contradictory views on faith, perceiving a universe suffused with spirituality while rejecting organized religion.

The letter up for sale, written to philosopher Eric Gutkind in January 1954, suggests his views on religion did not mellow with age.

In it, Einstein said that "the word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honorable but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish."

"For me," he added, "the Jewish religion like all other religions is an incarnation of the most childish superstitions."

Addressing the idea that the Jews are God's chosen people, Einstein wrote that "the Jewish people to whom I gladly belong and with whose mentality I have a deep affinity have no different quality for me than all other people. As far as my experience goes, they are also no better than other human groups, although they are protected from the worst cancers by a lack of power. Otherwise I cannot see anything 'chosen' about them."

Bloomsbury spokesman Richard Caton said the auction house was "100 percent certain" of the letter's authenticity. It is being offered at auction for the first time, by a private vendor.

Quirky beliefs
John Brooke, emeritus professor of science and religion at Oxford University, said the letter lends weight to the notion that "Einstein was not a conventional theist" — although he was not an atheist, either.

"Like many great scientists of the past, he is rather quirky about religion, and not always consistent from one period to another," Brooke said.

Born to a Jewish family in Germany in 1879, Einstein said he went through a devout phase as a child before beginning to question conventional religion at the age of 12.

In later life, he expressed a sense of wonder at the universe and its mysteries — what he called a "cosmic religious feeling" — and famously said: "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

But he also said: "I do not believe in the God of theology who rewards good and punishes evil. My God created laws that take care of that. His universe is not ruled by wishful thinking, but by immutable laws."

Brooke said Einstein believed that "there is some kind of intelligence working its way through nature. But it is certainly not a conventional Christian or Judaic religious view."

Einstein's most famous legacy is the special theory of relativity, which makes the point that a large amount of energy could be released from a tiny amount of matter, as expressed in the equation e=mc2 (energy equals mass times the speed of light squared). The theory changed the face of physics, allowing scientists to make predictions about space and paving the way for nuclear power and the atomic bomb.

Einstein's musings on science, war, peace and God helped make him world famous, and his scientific legacy prompted Time magazine to name him its Person of the 20th Century.

Emphasis mine.
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Offline Shakaib

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Re: A fine tuned universe.
« Reply #180 on: October 10, 2008, 12:17:08 PM »
what does that prove?

Online Azdgari

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Re: A fine tuned universe.
« Reply #181 on: October 10, 2008, 12:18:41 PM »
what does that prove?

Well, you said this:

Einstein was so intellient, and he believed in God. I hope he's in Heaven. Bless him.

So I figured I should let you know just what Einstein thought about beliefs such as yours.  He thought they were dumb.
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Offline Shakaib

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Re: A fine tuned universe.
« Reply #182 on: October 10, 2008, 12:25:26 PM »
He believed in God though - which is the most important thing.

Offline xphobe

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Re: A fine tuned universe.
« Reply #183 on: October 10, 2008, 12:31:57 PM »
He will appear on the day of judgement.

"will appear"?  Implying that he is not always in evidence?  We are not constantly being judged?

I disagree.  My god is the universe around us.  Proof of its existence is our senses and experience.  If I attempt to thwart one of its laws, I am instantly judged.  There is no vengeance or jealousy as there is with Yahweh/Allah, only cold ruthless impartial truth.  If I jump off a cliff, God's law of gravity will pull me down.
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Offline Deus ex Machina

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Re: A fine tuned universe.
« Reply #184 on: October 10, 2008, 12:34:56 PM »
Why not?

Because we don't know if the universe was 'manufactured' or not, and can't simply assume one way or another.

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If he send miracles like rain (water from the sky) in such processes (the water cycle), why should we deny a higher being?

On what basis do you assume that rain or the water cycle are some kind of divine miracle? They're natural processes. We know how they work.

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of whom everywhere evidence exists. Creation requires a creator, God is the creator (of everything). There is 100% proof that life on Earth is intelligent.

For a given definition of 'intelligent', I'd revise that to: "there is intelligent life on Earth".

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If man got together with all the technology and everything else, he wouldn't even be able to create a bee!

No, but bees can create bees. We can and do create more humans.

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not intelligent? oh, I think it is!

What you think is neither here nor there. Reality does not bend itself to our opinion of it.

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The Universe has a creator, God doesn't.

Saying it doesn't make it so. As above, your opinions do not alter reality.

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Because it's like saying "Who created the Un-creatobale", which obviously doesn't make sense.

Not all values of 'uncreated' necessarily equate to 'God'.

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Humans have an amazing brain, but some decide to take it the wrong way. Some thank God for it.

Again, that's your opinion. Asserting it, however, does not make it so.
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Online Azdgari

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Re: A fine tuned universe.
« Reply #185 on: October 10, 2008, 12:40:31 PM »
He believed in God though - which is the most important thing.

The word is the same, the meaning entirely different.  His god bears no resemblance to yours.
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Offline nihilanth

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Re: A fine tuned universe.
« Reply #186 on: October 10, 2008, 12:47:04 PM »
He believed in God though - which is the most important thing.

The word is the same, the meaning entirely different.  His god bears no resemblance to yours.

Let's see, the creator of the universe? well that's God, and the same God that einstien was talking about. So does Hawking actually.

He believed in the Supreme being, just not the dogmatic writings of most religious texts.
You can't prove it either way so you have to make a choice.

Online Azdgari

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Re: A fine tuned universe.
« Reply #187 on: October 10, 2008, 12:48:13 PM »
Shakaib's god is defined by the barbaric writings of a religious text.
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Offline nihilanth

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Re: A fine tuned universe.
« Reply #188 on: October 10, 2008, 12:56:23 PM »
Shakaib's god is defined by the barbaric writings of a religious text.

I said dogmatic, not barbaric.
You can't prove it either way so you have to make a choice.

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Re: A fine tuned universe.
« Reply #189 on: October 10, 2008, 12:58:51 PM »
So you did.  My bad...I meant dogmatic, I swear...
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Offline Shakaib

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Re: A fine tuned universe.
« Reply #190 on: October 10, 2008, 01:25:53 PM »
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Because we don't know if the universe was 'manufactured' or not, and can't simply assume one way or another.

SMall things need manufacturing, The Universe is too complex just to have come about by magic


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On what basis do you assume that rain or the water cycle are some kind of divine miracle? They're natural processes. We know how they work.

You know how they work. But can God control the "natural processes"?. Yes.

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For a given definition of 'intelligent', I'd revise that to: "there is intelligent life on Earth".
>>
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No, but bees can create bees. We can and do create more humans.

That's not the point. What I'm trying to say is that Humans can create amazing things like telescopes, computers and so on... but yet cannot create something small like a bee - which can provide evidence for a creator who create's seperate things which humans cannot create.

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What you think is neither here nor there. Reality does not bend itself to our opinion of it.

Sorry, I meant "I know it is".

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Saying it doesn't make it so. As above, your opinions do not alter reality.

I know small things need a creator, and the creator must be even more complex. The Universe? Big and Complex, the Earth's perfect position which is travelling in an orbit constantley. Gravity being so finely tuned. This can provide evidence for God.

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Not all values of 'uncreated' necessarily equate to 'God'.

Not all values of 'uncreated' necessarily equate to 'the Universe'.

(I know you didn't say that ^^, but you do think that the Universe didn't have/need a creator, which therefore may put the conclusion: "The Universe always existed")

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Again, that's your opinion. Asserting it, however, does not make it so.

The human brain, with 6 million complex cells, each cell is equal to the most complex man-made computer. 6 Million complex man-made computers forming by chance, with emotion, love, evil.... Even one computer needs a creator, what about 6 million complex man-made computers?? no evidence of a higher being who did all this, which man cannot?? and for sure which, "Chance" cannot do.


I'll put it this way. Humans can create things which can look deeper into the creation of God. Humans can create amazing things, but things seperate like animals (which humans cannot create) were created by a higher being.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2008, 01:28:50 PM by Shakaib »

Offline Deus ex Machina

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Re: A fine tuned universe.
« Reply #191 on: October 10, 2008, 01:37:29 PM »
SMall things need manufacturing, The Universe is too complex just to have come about by magic

Who said anything about magic?

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On what basis do you assume that rain or the water cycle are some kind of divine miracle? They're natural processes. We know how they work.

You know how they work. But can God control the "natural processes". Yes.

Hypothetically, if there were such an entity, then it could control all "natural processes", but that's beside the point. Natural processes are not evidence of such an entity.

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That's not the point. What I'm trying to say is that Humans can create amazing things like telescopes, computers and so on... but yet cannot create something small like a bee - which can provide evidence for a creator who create's seperate things which humans cannot create.

Why would we assume a Creator who creates bees when we can readily explain the existence of bees by evolution from simpler life-forms?

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Sorry, I meant "I know it is".

I know small things need a creator, and the creator must be even more complex. The Universe? Big and Complex, the Earth's perfect position which is travelling in an orbit constantley.

The habitable zone isn't quite as finely defined as you might think, and as we know by examination of our own deep seas, life is apparently far more robust than we might have thought, too. Also, Earth is but one planet orbiting but one of the 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 known stars in our universe. There are at least two, possibly three, planets in our Solar System that may have had the potential for life at one time or another. Who knows how many other star systems might support life? Who knows how widespread life might be?

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Gravity being so finely tuned.

On what basis do you make this assertion? On what basis do you think that gravity can work any other way than the way it does?

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Not all values of 'uncreated' necessarily equate to 'the Universe'.

Granted, but that doesn't give one license to assume 'God' either.

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The human brain, with 6 million complex cells, each cell is equal to the most complex man-made computer. 6 Million complex man-made computers forming by chance, with emotion, love, evil.... Even one computer needs a creator, what about 6 million complex man-made computers?? no evidence of a higher being who did all this, which man cannot?? and for sure which, "Chance" cannot do.

Evolution from simpler life-forms is not "chance". It may be complex, but chance it ain't.

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I'll put it this way. Humans can create things which can look deeper into the creation of God. Humans can create amazing things, but things seperate like animals (which humans cannot create) was created by a higher being.

You can keep saying it, but that doesn't make it true.
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Online Azdgari

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Re: A fine tuned universe.
« Reply #192 on: October 10, 2008, 01:51:37 PM »
He believed in God though - which is the most important thing.

The word is the same, the meaning entirely different.  His god bears no resemblance to yours.

Let's see, the creator of the universe? well that's God, and the same God that einstien was talking about. So does Hawking actually.

He believed in the Supreme being, just not the dogmatic writings of most religious texts.

Actually, now that I think of it, have Einstein or Hawking ever actually claimed that they believe a god is responsible for the universe's creation?  I challenge this assertion.
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Offline Airyaman

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Re: A fine tuned universe.
« Reply #193 on: October 10, 2008, 02:09:18 PM »
Actually, now that I think of it, have Einstein or Hawking ever actually claimed that they believe a god is responsible for the universe's creation?  I challenge this assertion.

The only thing I could find for Einstein is

"What really interests me is whether God had any choice in the creation of the world." --Albert Einstein
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Offline nihilanth

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Re: A fine tuned universe.
« Reply #194 on: October 10, 2008, 02:36:32 PM »
Actually, now that I think of it, have Einstein or Hawking ever actually claimed that they believe a god is responsible for the universe's creation?  I challenge this assertion.

The only thing I could find for Einstein is

"What really interests me is whether God had any choice in the creation of the world." --Albert Einstein

What about "God doesn't throw dice."

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind"

Also, Einstien was constantly thinking. To quote him at one moment of time when he could have had a different spiritual philosophy at a later moment of time, is irrelevant. Only Einstien knows what Einstien felt about it. All we can deduce is that he was a theist/deist sort of man, certainly not a strict atheist.
You can't prove it either way so you have to make a choice.

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Re: A fine tuned universe.
« Reply #195 on: October 10, 2008, 02:39:50 PM »
Oh, I'm not claiming that he didn't believe in something he called "god".  I'm asking whether they ever indicated a belief that god created the universe.
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Offline Shakaib

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Re: A fine tuned universe.
« Reply #196 on: October 10, 2008, 02:40:27 PM »
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"What really interests me is whether God had any choice in the creation of the world." --Albert Einstein
from Airyaman ^^

I read that yesterday in a book! But he was a Theist. He was so bright, but he couldn't tie his shoe laces. Bless him. I hope he's in Heaven.

Offline velkyn

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Re: A fine tuned universe.
« Reply #197 on: October 10, 2008, 02:44:42 PM »
I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it. (Albert Einstein, 1954)

I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with the fates and actions of human beings. (Albert Einstein)

I cannot conceive of a God who rewards and punishes his creatures, or has a will of the kind that we experience in ourselves. Neither can I nor would I want to conceive of an individual that survives his physical death; let feeble souls, from fear or absurd egoism, cherish such thoughts. I am satisfied with the mystery of the eternity of life and with the awareness and a glimpse of the marvelous structure of the existing world, together with the devoted striving to comprehend a portion, be it ever so tiny, of the Reason that manifests itself in nature. (Albert Einstein, The World as I See It)

A man's ethical behaviour should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death.
(Albert Einstein, "Religion and Science", New York Times Magazine, 9 November 1930)

Then there are the fanatical atheists whose intolerance is the same as that of the religious fanatics, and it springs from the same source . . . They are creatures who can't hear the music of the spheres. (The Expanded Quotable Einstein, Princeton University Press, 2000 p. 214)

http://www.spaceandmotion.com/albert-einstein-god-religion-theology.htm
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Offline xphobe

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Re: A fine tuned universe.
« Reply #198 on: October 10, 2008, 02:49:51 PM »
The Hawking quote that's always being debated is this:

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However, if we discover a complete theory, it should in time be understandable by everyone, not just by a few scientists. Then we shall all, philosophers, scientists and just ordinary people, be able to take part in the discussion of the question of why it is that we and the universe exist. If we find the answer to that, it would be the ultimate triumph of human reason -- for then we should know the mind of God.

Hawking's God seems to be nothing more than a synonym for a unified theory.  Ever the optimist, he apparently feels this goal is quite attainable, which tells me that it's not really God at all he's talking about.
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Offline Shakaib

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Re: A fine tuned universe.
« Reply #199 on: October 10, 2008, 02:50:06 PM »
It seems like he contradicts himself sometimes. But the Bible proves him wrong:

"In the beginning God created the Heavens and the Earth"

Einstein said he doesn't believe in a personal God but does believe in a sort of higher being (in his standards).

The Bible still proved him wrong.

Offline nihilanth

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Re: A fine tuned universe.
« Reply #200 on: October 10, 2008, 02:53:12 PM »
It seems like he contradicts himself sometimes. But the Bible proves him wrong:

"In the beginning God created the Heavens and the Earth"

Einstein said he doesn't believe in a personal God but does believe in a sort of higher being (in his standards).

The Bible still proved him wrong.

The bible PROVES nothing. It is a matter of faith whether you believe it or not. I have always thought that the Bible is a story about God, not the direct word of God.
You can't prove it either way so you have to make a choice.

Offline Shakaib

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Re: A fine tuned universe.
« Reply #201 on: October 10, 2008, 02:56:22 PM »
It seems like he contradicts himself sometimes. But the Bible proves him wrong:

"In the beginning God created the Heavens and the Earth"

Einstein said he doesn't believe in a personal God but does believe in a sort of higher being (in his standards).

The Bible still proved him wrong.

The bible PROVES nothing. It is a matter of faith whether you believe it or not. I have always thought that the Bible is a story about God, not the direct word of God.

That's very true. Because it doesn't say

"In the beginning I [or We] created the Heavens and the Earth"

God isn't directly speaking.

"I (god) created the animals", "We created the Heavens perfectly".

It doesn't talk like that ^^. Instead, someone is telling us about God

"We sent down water from the sky so Atheists can now become Theists by seeing these miracles that WE send down"

Offline Airyaman

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Re: A fine tuned universe.
« Reply #202 on: October 10, 2008, 02:58:58 PM »
It seems like he contradicts himself sometimes. But the Bible proves him wrong:

"In the beginning God created the Heavens and the Earth"

Einstein said he doesn't believe in a personal God but does believe in a sort of higher being (in his standards).

The Bible still proved him wrong.

Shakaib, would you stop trolling various threads with the same post? We are well aware the bible says Elohim created the heavens and earth. We are also aware that snakes and donkeys talked in the bible too. Just because someone wrote something proves nothing.
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