Author Topic: A fine tuned universe.  (Read 14260 times)

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Offline slacker22

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Re: A fine tuned universe.
« Reply #58 on: August 30, 2008, 12:18:28 AM »
Your an asswipe.

And you have lousy grammar.  What's the big deal?  You might be right about me being an asswipe, but that doesn't change the fact that his "answer" was ignorant.  I think it's a fair question.  Why not let him answer for himself?  He knows better than anyone else that he has no particular reason to think himself qualified to lecture others on the life sciences.  Yet, he DOES think he is so qualified.  That's interesting to me, so I asked him about it, and I am earnestly awaiting an honest and straight-forward answer.

Because i think if he supported your arguments then you wouldnt have called him ignorant,  qualified in life sciences or not.   And that makes you ignorant not him :P

Offline Freak

Re: A fine tuned universe.
« Reply #59 on: August 30, 2008, 12:22:22 AM »
Your an asswipe.

And you have lousy grammar.  What's the big deal?  You might be right about me being an asswipe, but that doesn't change the fact that his "answer" was ignorant.  I think it's a fair question.  Why not let him answer for himself?  He knows better than anyone else that he has no particular reason to think himself qualified to lecture others on the life sciences.  Yet, he DOES think he is so qualified.  That's interesting to me, so I asked him about it, and I am earnestly awaiting an honest and straight-forward answer.

Because i think if he supported your arguments then you wouldnt have called him ignorant,  qualified in life sciences or not.   And that makes you ignorant not him :P

Not that what you said just made sense, but DD would probably have called him ignorant no matter who's argument he supported, if he was ignorant in doing so.
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Offline slacker22

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Re: A fine tuned universe.
« Reply #60 on: August 30, 2008, 12:25:26 AM »
Your an asswipe.

And you have lousy grammar.  What's the big deal?  You might be right about me being an asswipe, but that doesn't change the fact that his "answer" was ignorant.  I think it's a fair question.  Why not let him answer for himself?  He knows better than anyone else that he has no particular reason to think himself qualified to lecture others on the life sciences.  Yet, he DOES think he is so qualified.  That's interesting to me, so I asked him about it, and I am earnestly awaiting an honest and straight-forward answer.

Because i think if he supported your arguments then you wouldnt have called him ignorant,  qualified in life sciences or not.   And that makes you ignorant not him :P

Not that what you said just made sense, but DD would probably have called him ignorant no matter who's argument he supported, if he was ignorant in doing so.

Im sure he has alot of posts on this board,   do you have any references of him doing so?

Offline xphobe

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Re: A fine tuned universe.
« Reply #61 on: August 30, 2008, 12:30:15 AM »
I hate to be nit-picky here, but Davedave didn't call him ignorant, he said it was an ignorant argument.  Well-informed (non-ignorant) people can and do use ignorant arguments.  They're called "liars".
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Offline Ambassador Pony

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Re: A fine tuned universe.
« Reply #62 on: August 30, 2008, 09:46:39 AM »
I hate to be nit-picky here, but Davedave didn't call him ignorant, he said it was an ignorant argument.  Well-informed (non-ignorant) people can and do use ignorant arguments.  They're called "liars".

Pet-peeve of mine too.

As soon as some people just hear the word, it's "you calling me....?"

You believe evolution and there is no evidence for that. Where is the fossil record of a half man half ape. I've only ever heard about it in reading.

Offline captainmanacles

Re: A fine tuned universe.
« Reply #63 on: August 31, 2008, 04:09:36 PM »
A variety of problems with the fine tune argument.

1) Yes, if the rules were different the universe would be different, but that's not to say it would be incapable of creating life or interesting structures, just not the ones we're use to dealing with.  But that is, as smarter people then I have pointed out, like a puddle noticing the hole it is in seems perfectly fit for it.

2)  If someone is proposing that this god created all the rules, then he also created the rules that says the gravitational constants have to be within very fine measurements in order to support life and other things.  It's quite the act of cherry picking to just look at those constants and ignore the fact that god created a universe where the laws of entropy make life nearly impossible to exist.  If we were to determine what god likes based on what kind of universe he created, he seems to like black holes and nothingness.

3)  This is a misuse of probability.  The probability of something occurring naturally is the number of ways we could count a success divided by the number of possible outcomes.  What's the possible "range" of gravitational constants?  We've only ever observed one, so the answer as best we can tell is just the one.  Assuming anything else and you're creating circular reasoning.  You're basically assuming that there are all these other universes out there with different constants, and it's no wonder that this logic leads particularly uncritical thinkers into believing that there may be multiple universes.

Offline Davedave

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Re: A fine tuned universe.
« Reply #64 on: September 02, 2008, 09:48:14 AM »
Because i think if he supported your arguments then you wouldnt have called him ignorant,  qualified in life sciences or not.   And that makes you ignorant not him :P

That's an interesting thought.  So you mean if he hadn't exposed his ignorance by saying things that were obviously retarded and based on a deep misunderstanding of fundamental concepts of biology, I might not have identified him as ignorant?  Or maybe if he had said something that wasn't ignorant, instead of something that was ignorant, that maybe I wouldn't have called him ignorant?  I can live with that.  Thanks, Captain Obvious.

Offline Shakaib

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Re: A fine tuned universe.
« Reply #65 on: September 02, 2008, 12:38:08 PM »
Without the laws of physics already in place before the universes creation, the universe could not have existed at all.



I propose that the universe was definately created, therefore something great had to have created it.

So I ask you, why is gravity so finely tuned?



Because God exists. 100% real.

Offline JackWhitehead1

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Re: A fine tuned universe.
« Reply #66 on: September 02, 2008, 12:44:01 PM »
Gravity is not finely tuned at all
I hypothesize that if Gravity had a lesser value, we'd all have bigger brains ;) haha

Offline velkyn

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Re: A fine tuned universe.
« Reply #67 on: September 02, 2008, 01:46:09 PM »
Gravity is not finely tuned at all
I hypothesize that if Gravity had a lesser value, we'd all have bigger brains ;) haha

well, at least my back and feet wouldn't hurt so much ::)
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Offline JackWhitehead1

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Re: A fine tuned universe.
« Reply #68 on: September 02, 2008, 02:08:27 PM »
Exactly.
Actually gravity is pretty shit, the universe would be so much better if it was "finely tuned"
It would also be unimaginably different, but ah well  8)

Offline Davedave

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Re: A fine tuned universe.
« Reply #69 on: September 02, 2008, 02:15:50 PM »
Here's the hard part for me to imagine.

1.  You have a universal constant.
2.  You unilaterally decide to declare it a variable.
3.  You change the value of the variable-constant for no apparent reason.
4.  You hypothesize that the universe would be altered by this.
5.  You act surprised.
6.  You act as though this proves something about anything.

I mean, is that insight?  Is that amazing?  Changing constants into variables might change the universe?  Holy crapballs!  You mean things would be different if things that were always the same suddenly started changing?  Golly gee, who'dda thunk?  My desk has always been my desk.  If it suddenly turned into a glowing hot lava flow or a peanut, gosh, I guess I'd have to start thinking differently about desks.  These people need to exercise their brains every decade or so.

Offline JackWhitehead1

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Re: A fine tuned universe.
« Reply #70 on: September 02, 2008, 02:24:05 PM »
Without the laws of physics already in place before the universes creation, the universe could not have existed at all.



I propose that the universe was definately created, therefore something great had to have created it.

So I ask you, why is gravity so finely tuned?





Because God exists. 100% real.

Shakaib, you have to be absolutely honest with us now.
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Offline xphobe

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Re: A fine tuned universe.
« Reply #71 on: September 02, 2008, 03:25:25 PM »
Are there several different meanings for the word "constant"?

We have a number like pi, which is the ratio of a circle's circumference to its diameter.   Or e, which is the base of natural logarithms.  These things can't change (at least not in our geometry).

Then there are constants like Avogadro's Constant, which is defined to be the number of atoms of carbon-12 in 12 grams (1 mole) of carbon-12, and which is determined empirically. How do we know if we've counted atoms correctly?  How do we know if we have exactly 12 grams?  This seems to be a pretty shaky type of constant.

Then we have numbers like the gravitational constant, or the fine structure constant.  Is it correct to call these "constants" in the same sense that pi is a constant?  Google "gravitational constant variable" and you will see that at least some physicists take seriously the possibility of G being different in some models of the Universe.  I don't know enough about physics to know whether these physicists are legit though...

The fine structure constant is intriguing.  It is approximately 1/137.

Quote
It has been a mystery ever since it was discovered more than fifty years ago, and all good theoretical physicists put this number up on their wall and worry about it. Immediately you would like to know where this number for a coupling comes from: is it related to ? or perhaps to the base of natural logarithms? Nobody knows. It's one of the greatest damn mysteries of physics: a magic number that comes to us with no understanding by man. You might say the "hand of God" wrote that number, and "we don't know how He pushed his pencil." We know what kind of a dance to do experimentally to measure this number very accurately, but we don't know what kind of dance to do on the computer to make this number come out, without putting it in secretly!
— Richard P. Feynman, QED: The Strange Theory of Light and Matter, Princeton University Press 1985, p. 129
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Offline Davedave

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Re: A fine tuned universe.
« Reply #72 on: September 02, 2008, 03:51:31 PM »
These things can't change (at least not in our geometry).

Yeah, but think how different things would be if God DID change it.  Wowsers!  Totally different!!!  Didn't that ever occur to you?  Doesn't that prove the infinite mercy and wisdom of the Lord, inasmuch as he finely tuned pi?  Change it just a little, and everything we know would go right out the window.

Google "gravitational constant variable" and you will see that at least some physicists take seriously the possibility of G being different in some models of the Universe.

Why not take seriously a universe with a different pi?

Offline captainmanacles

Re: A fine tuned universe.
« Reply #73 on: September 02, 2008, 04:52:13 PM »
Yeah, but think how different things would be if God DID change it.  Wowsers!  Totally different!!!  Didn't that ever occur to you?  Doesn't that prove the infinite mercy and wisdom of the Lord, inasmuch as he finely tuned pi?  Change it just a little, and everything we know would go right out the window.

Except he created a harsh universe that is deadly to life.  How is that merciful?

And no, that doesn't prove the infinite mercy of the lord, because you're assuming "god did it" as a premise, which is circular reasoning.  You can't assume god did it when trying to show that god did it.

Quote
Why not take seriously a universe with a different pi?

Because pi is a result of logic and math, those things can't be changed, even if god existed, which he doesn't.


Offline xphobe

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Re: A fine tuned universe.
« Reply #74 on: September 02, 2008, 05:10:57 PM »
Because pi is a result of logic and math, those things can't be changed, even if god existed, which he doesn't.

Of course, logic and math are a result of god, and god can do anything, including microwave a burrito so hot that even he can't eat it.  In fact, anything is anything!  Or nothing at all!   I have gouged out the eyes of my Reason!  I am a good Christian now.
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Offline captainmanacles

Re: A fine tuned universe.
« Reply #75 on: September 02, 2008, 05:33:38 PM »
Because pi is a result of logic and math, those things can't be changed, even if god existed, which he doesn't.

Of course, logic and math are a result of god, and god can do anything, including microwave a burrito so hot that even he can't eat it.  In fact, anything is anything!  Or nothing at all!   I have gouged out the eyes of my Reason!  I am a good Christian now.

You know, it's sad that believers are so irrational that it took me a second to decide if you were kidding or not.

Offline Davedave

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Re: A fine tuned universe.
« Reply #76 on: September 02, 2008, 05:36:31 PM »
Well, then, you're one for two, because you missed mine.

Offline ;)

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Re: A fine tuned universe.
« Reply #77 on: September 02, 2008, 05:52:31 PM »
Haha!
That all went horribly wrong didn't it ::)
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Offline captainmanacles

Re: A fine tuned universe.
« Reply #78 on: September 02, 2008, 06:03:59 PM »
Well, then, you're one for two, because you missed mine.

ha ha, yeah I did.  That's just not at all different from something a believer would say, but looking at your other posts you clearly must have been kidding.

Offline Davedave

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Re: A fine tuned universe.
« Reply #79 on: September 03, 2008, 06:40:46 PM »
Well, since I KNOW what I am talking about, your question makes no sense.

Well, let's see.  You could either KNOW what you are talking about or you could only THINK you know what you are talking about.  We need to figure out which it is.  Now, the quick way to do this is for you to admit that you have no objective qualifications in the field.  The next best thing will be for you to lie and claim you DO have objective qualifications in the field.  The worst thing will be for you to explain how you read most of a copy of National Geographic that was in your dentist's office, saw a commercial for dryer sheets that included a cartoon bear, plus you visited your local zoo twice in the last five years.  So, how would you like to proceed?

Offline Cycle4Fun

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Re: A fine tuned universe.
« Reply #80 on: September 04, 2008, 05:06:38 PM »
The fine tuned argument is nothing more than a puddle arguing that the mud whole was made especially so that it would fit the water.

This is an outstanding analogy for life.  The water is an organism.  The whole is the evolutionary niche.  The rest of the world is the universe.  Any number of things could cause the puddle to disappear.  When the water is gone, the puddle isn't so fine tuned anymore.
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Offline xphobe

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Re: A fine tuned universe.
« Reply #81 on: September 04, 2008, 05:28:30 PM »
Ah, but who could refute the famous Kirk Cameron Banana Argument!

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2z-OLG0KyR4[/youtube]
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Offline Freak

Re: A fine tuned universe.
« Reply #82 on: September 04, 2008, 06:28:13 PM »
It's impossible to take a man holding a banana seriously.
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Offline nihilanth

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Re: A fine tuned universe.
« Reply #83 on: September 04, 2008, 08:10:57 PM »
Ah, but who could refute the famous Kirk Cameron Banana Argument!

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2z-OLG0KyR4[/youtube]

LMAO!

I understand where they are coming from, but it does not prove a thing. It is however an interesting coincidence.
You can't prove it either way so you have to make a choice.

Offline Ananukia

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Re: A fine tuned universe.
« Reply #84 on: September 04, 2008, 09:02:31 PM »
Ah, but who could refute the famous Kirk Cameron Banana Argument!

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2z-OLG0KyR4[/youtube]

LMAO!

I understand where they are coming from, but it does not prove a thing. It is however an interesting coincidence.

Coincidence? Humans raising bananas to fit their needs is coincidence?
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Offline ksm

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Re: A fine tuned universe.
« Reply #85 on: September 05, 2008, 06:28:58 AM »
I understand where they are coming from, but it does not prove a thing. It is however an interesting coincidence.

Cows are also good to eat, but they do not have a convenient pull open tab.

Offline xphobe

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Re: A fine tuned universe.
« Reply #86 on: September 05, 2008, 09:44:36 AM »
Sea urchins (uni) are wonderful!  But they're totally covered in nasty sharp spikes.  Good thing too, because if they weren't, there would be no sea urchins left!  Yummy!
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