I would like to... [#237]

[MrFriday]

I know in my heart I'm not crazy.

Ask anyone in an asylum if they are crazy. Almost without exception they will tell you that they are not crazy. Ask any inmate in prison if they are guilty. You'll get the same type of response. Your belief in your sanity is irrelevant. Whatever you do to interpret the "Hand of God" in your life is only of value to you. For those of us who are not so easily convinced, what evicence is there that God exists? What is there that is indisputably the work of God? I see plenty of better theories about everything in nature. The magical "God did it" is totally useless because it cannot be validated. It is just a claim.

[Hermes]

I love pancakes.

[monavman]

Hello Vynn! your right it is possible. let me ask you two questions then sir. how did everything come into being? also can something come from nothing? in other words where did the first cause of everything come from? impossible to be from thin air...(its okay to say/think there is a creator;)

mcfriday hello:) its nice to see that you have joined the group here. i do feel a bit out numbered but i enjoy the chance to throw around ideas with folks.(i'm also a fan of the pancake!)

sir with all respect there are plenty of people that know they are mentally ill and admit it not "almost without exception" and there are plenty of self proclaimed criminals behind bars. that even are so self-righteous that they are proud to be there.

Yes sir the hand of God in my life is of value to me and all of us truly while we are here on earth no matter how hard life might be. hence the taste buds to enjoy pancakes. thats what i believe. everything in life must happen for a reason. if not how could anything ever possibly work from the smallest details to the existence of the sun.

A general statement
if people suffer its because we have brought it on to our self or handed it to someone else. 
God is not to blame.

its funny though dont we find ourselves casting blame on anyone the the person we look at in the mirror?

and please everyone don't think i have purposely ignored your questions. like i said before if i where to sit here and reply to everyone it would be a full time job

without pay:) 

hermes please dont take my thoughts as bold assertions im trying my hardest to tell you guys why i believe in God(personal and logical) without being a-hole. 

Also I haven't made much if any statements yet to say Christ is God in the flesh. but there are plenty of reasons. i can post quotes from Lee Strobel's case for Christ. or C.S. Lewis' book Mere Christianity. I know for a fact and so do scholars not just Bible ones that the life of Christ is the most documented thing in mankind up until modern times. with over 24,000 documents dating to the first century. compare that to four of Alexander the great. in the time line of people they are relatively close to each other. that's one example i think that is substantial.

Sir's and Ladies if you have a handful of minutes watch that video i posted. ravi Zacharias studied as a visiting scholar at Cambridge University. among many other impressive achievements. I mention this to Let you know he is not some crack pot idiot out there just saying garbage.

[Vynn]

Hello Vynn! your right it is possible. let me ask you two questions then sir. how did everything come into being? also can something come from nothing? in other words where did the first cause of everything come from? impossible to be from thin air...(its okay to say/think there is a creator;)

It's possible that something can come from nothing. (Quantum Mechanics and all.)
Whether the universe did or not, i don't know.

its funny though dont we find ourselves casting blame on anyone the the person we look at in the mirror?

I blame myself for all sorts of things. Usually, i'm the one to blame when it comes to problems i have.

[Hermes]

hermes please dont take my thoughts as bold assertions im trying my hardest to tell you guys why i believe in God(personal and logical) without being a-hole. 

You can be bold.

You can make assertions.

What makes it OK is if you can back up those bold assertions.

If you can't, then we're not talking directly we're skirting the issues.

To be clear;

Hello Vynn! your right it is possible. let me ask you two questions then sir. how did everything come into being? also can something come from nothing? in other words where did the first cause of everything come from? impossible to be from thin air...(its okay to say/think there is a creator;)

What's wrong with "I don't know?"

Can you say the same?

The implied assertion -- and an unfounded one -- is that not only do you know the answer but you are utterly convinced of that answer.  Yet, you're not explaining your reasoning on why you are convinced.

If this is not what you mean, and you also don't know, why ask the question in the first place?

If you know the answer, why not tell us what you think so that we can decide if your assertion is credible?

[Ambassador Pony]

Monavan,

Concerning this:

The scientific odds of even one left-sided amino acid forming by chance is 10 to the 123rd power. In other words 1 chance in 10 followed by 123 zeros. i.e. 1 in
1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 Compare this to the ridiculous odds of winning the lottery which is 1 chance in 80,000,000. And  people say I have blind faith. But those are not the odds of life forming. It gets worse. That is only one of the 500 aminos necessary for the simplest life form. 20 specific aminos are needed for the simplest cell, but 500 in order for life to sustain in itself. The odds get worse. Those 500 different types of amino acids have to 'evolve' within a fraction of a millimeter of each other just to give them the chance of uniting. It gets worse. They also have to 'by chance' evolve at the exact same moment in time in a process that scientist say takes hundreds of millions of years. Elements break down the amino acids, so timing is critical. The chances of all these resources falling into place at the exact same time with the exact needed elements at the exact same place on earth within a few millionths of a millimeter of each other are 1 to the ERROR..Calculation overflow. Sorry, my Pentium doesn't have enough memory to even write the number. this is a copy paste;) very very accurate though promise

What are some of the common rebuttles to this argument you posted about the odds of life forming? A plain rendering, in your own words of only about two would be fine.

thanks.

BUMP

monavan, why are you ignoring my question?

Monovan?

[xphobe]

Also I haven't made much if any statements yet to say Christ is God in the flesh. but there are plenty of reasons. i can post quotes from Lee Strobel's case for Christ. or C.S. Lewis' book Mere Christianity. I know for a fact and so do scholars not just Bible ones that the life of Christ is the most documented thing in mankind up until modern times. with over 24,000 documents dating to the first century. compare that to four of Alexander the great. in the time line of people they are relatively close to each other. that's one example i think that is substantial.

24,000?  Where did you get that number?  Name one document (aside from the Bible of course) that attests Christ's divinity.

Can you even name four documents that attest Christ's existence as a human being?  In other words, is Christ's existence even as certain as Alexander the Great's?

P.S. Please don't forget to answer Ambassador Pony's question.  It's very important.

[monavman]

Pony. how can someone argue against 1 in 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000. for just a very very small part of the formation of life. that odd needs to be done 500 times all at once. like take 500 people on this forum. place them in a lottery drawing where the odds of winning are 1 in 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000.  and they all win 100 percent 500 people all picked the right numbers not six. hundreds of thousands of numbers.(six is about 80,000,000)

if someone can really think they can have a rebuttal to that maybe they should be in the mental hospitals mcfriday mentioned. i dont mean that in a mean way. i just hope you guys see how impossible it is to happen without sheer genius behind it. then to say there is no proof of God blows my mind.

i ask everyone now tell me how could 500 hundred of us win a lotto where we pick 100,000's of numbers and we all picked the right ones together. oh hey that would be a jackpot that out numbers the stars in the known universe by the way.


(my answer the lotto drawer tells us the numbers after he has picked them (us discovering DNA) )

ive done that math before you can go to the nasa website and do simple exponent math to figure a rough estimate of how many stars there are in the entire universe on your own (its fun). that last odd(500 people won) out numbers the stars by multiples...

okay time to start my day. please folks dont be angry i haven't answered your question yet. i have not received any feedback from you guys about being out numbered. i hope i have been able to respond enough to make you guys happy. as i will continue.

also no feedback from the video i posted read the few posts i wrote under it beforehand. its short and to the point.

thanks!

[Ambassador Pony]

Pony. how can someone argue against 1 in 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000. for just a very very small part of the formation of life. that odd needs to be done 500 times all at once. like take 500 people on this forum. place them in a lottery drawing where the odds of winning are 1 in 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000.  and they all win 100 percent 500 people all picked the right numbers not six. hundreds of thousands of numbers.(six is about 80,000,000)

if someone can really think they can have a rebuttal to that maybe they should be in the mental hospitals mcfriday mentioned. i dont mean that in a mean way. i just hope you guys see how impossible it is to happen without sheer genius behind it. then to say there is no proof of God blows my mind.

i ask everyone now tell me how could 500 hundred of us win a lotto where we pick 100,000's of numbers and we all picked the right ones together. oh hey that would be a jackpot that out numbers the stars in the known universe by the way.


(my answer the lotto drawer tells us the numbers after he has picked them (us discovering DNA) )

ive done that math before you can go to the nasa website and do simple exponent math to figure a rough estimate of how many stars there are in the entire universe on your own (its fun). that last odd(500 people won) out numbers the stars by multiples...

Ok thanks. I just wanted to know if you were an honest criticial thinker. Seems you only focus on what you want to be true, ignoring everything else.

This is a start:

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/addendaB.html

For when you decide to demonstrate some intellectual honesty and courage, give that a read then explore the refutations.

Once you've done that, you can return here and discuss the matter honestly, rather than selfishly spout off about it as a certainty, and impose on others the duty of correcting you.

[Sardonius]

Cthulhu has written the necronomicon on all of our hearts! How can you fools be deaf to his call?

Zi Dingir Anna Kanpa
Zi Dingi Kia Kanpa....

Heh...

[Hermes]

Pony. how can someone argue against 1 in 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000. for just a very very small part of the formation of life. that odd needs to be done 500 times all at once. like take 500 people on this forum. place them in a lottery drawing where the odds of winning are 1 in 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000.  and they all win 100 percent 500 people all picked the right numbers not six. hundreds of thousands of numbers.(six is about 80,000,000)

How can you argue against all the steps that have lead me to eat 3 chicken legs for lunch just a few moments ago -- and not just any chicken leg -- in this exact place cooked in 2 completely different spices?  That they were leftovers?  That the chickens came from a specific farm and the pan I cooked them in last night came from a specific factory?  How can you explain the molecules that made up the second of the three chicken legs being in the exact formation that they were in?  How can you explain that?

What you have is benefit of hindsight, but not the benefit of insight.

[Ambassador Pony]

Pony. how can someone argue against 1 in 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000. for just a very very small part of the formation of life. that odd needs to be done 500 times all at once. like take 500 people on this forum. place them in a lottery drawing where the odds of winning are 1 in 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000.  and they all win 100 percent 500 people all picked the right numbers not six. hundreds of thousands of numbers.(six is about 80,000,000)

How can you argue against all the steps that have lead me to eat 3 chicken legs for lunch just a few moments ago -- and not just any chicken leg -- in this exact place cooked in 2 completely different spices?  That they were leftovers?  That the chickens came from a specific farm and the pan I cooked them in last night came from a specific factory?  How can you explain the molecules that made up the second of the three chicken legs being in the exact formation that they were in?  How can you explain that?

What you have is benefit of hindsight, but not the benefit of insight.

My impression is he might not have the honesty or disposition to make the effort to grasp it.

[Hermes]

My impression is he might not have the honesty or disposition to make the effort to grasp it.

Well, honesty -- both personal and societal --  is taken care of by being religious.  Why work on it if it's a given?  To say otherwise would be blasphemy.

Along those lines, do you know if yet?

[monavman]

 The writer never once does his own scientific experiments/statistical math that i could find (please correct me if im wrong). Plus a lot of the people he quotes are atheists anyways that are the ones coming up with the statistics. then he makes it sound like its a big conspiracy of some kind to say that the odds are astronomical.(please correct me if im wrong).

 just read his bio on his web page and a huge problem sir if you would like to admit this with me by all means please. this man has no degree in any scientific field.

Please sir do not be mad at me here it is

B.A. History (minor in Classical Civilization), UC Berkeley (1997)
M.A. Ancient History, Columbia University (1998)
M.Phil. Ancient History, Columbia University (2000)

he really likes Ancient History:) and he likes to play word games with modern molecular genetics. by pointing out famous well established scientific work to be flawed. he would make a great lawyer:)

  

Ok thanks. I just wanted to know if you were an honest critical thinker. Seems you only focus on what you want to be true, ignoring everything else.

i'm trying to be a critical thinker sir.

I'm gonna have to ignore an elitist ancient history nut that wants to use words like flawed to strike down men that have worked very hard for lifetimes at scientific study.    

 

[monavman]

he quotes creation scientist too. still same point though.

[Hermes]

Monavman, Richard Carrier isn't a scientist.  He's a historian...as you pointed out.  He references people with those skills (as he should).  So, beyond his tone, what *specifically* do you see as a mistake on his part?

[Hermes]

I'm gonna have to ignore an elitist ancient history nut that wants to use words like flawed to strike down men that have worked very hard for lifetimes at scientific study.    

Because being elite is a bad thing?   Maybe you should go to the electro shock therapy department of a psyc ward and get some non-elites to inform you on complex issues?  No, better to just skip the trip and outright dismiss with an ad hominem anything you don't want to deal with.

Seriously; why is being informed and knowledgeable a bad thing while being ignorant is a good thing?

[velkyn]

Hello Vynn! your right it is possible. let me ask you two questions then sir. how did everything come into being? also can something come from nothing? in other words where did the first cause of everything come from? impossible to be from thin air...(its okay to say/think there is a creator;)
cut....
Sir's and Ladies if you have a handful of minutes watch that video i posted. ravi Zacharias studied as a visiting scholar at Cambridge University. among many other impressive achievements. I mention this to Let you know he is not some crack pot idiot out there just saying garbage.

So, did God come from nothing? If so, then something can come from nothing, per your own argument. 

As for Ravi, been there done that.  Anyoen who actually understands the second law of thermodynamics knows he's wrong and evidently too willfully ignorant to find accept that. 

[monavman]

pointless...a historian that is trying to debunk science is okay?

yeah Nazis were some of the biggest elitist of all time.  They were informed quite well and ignorant.

also there are plenty of incredibly smart and not ignorant people of this earth that have surrendered their lives to Jesus Christ. they are not uninformed sir.

to say im ignored because I dont want to listen to a historian with political agendas tell me that christian scientist or any for that matter are flawed in their research is plain old nonsense.

well sir maybe if you had lived in Nazi germany you would have been one of those informed elite members of society. and i would have been in a camp being burned alive for my religious choices.


(would that be nice?)



we as humans should try to live meek humble lives. with love as the foundation.


 

  

[Vynn]

we as humans should try to live meek humble lives. with love as the foundation.

Why?

[Hermes]

As for Ravi, been there done that.  Anyoen who actually understands the second law of thermodynamics knows he's wrong and evidently too willfully ignorant to find accept that. 

Yet, you have to give him credit for having a silver tongue.  I'd debate him but only by text, not in person.

[Hermes]

pointless...a historian that is trying to debunk science is okay?

What did he say that you object to?  Be specific.

If you can't, your comment is without justification and can be ignored.

[Ambassador Pony]

The writer never once does his own scientific experiments/statistical math that i could find (please correct me if im wrong). Plus a lot of the people he quotes are atheists anyways that are the ones coming up with the statistics. then he makes it sound like its a big conspiracy of some kind to say that the odds are astronomical.(please correct me if im wrong).

You skimmed it didn't you?

Carrier merely picks them apart, showing how fallacious they are. I notice you still haven't given me an example of his rebuttle, you just proceed to make an ad hominem and ignore all the information.

just read his bio on his web page and a huge problem sir if you would like to admit this with me by all means please. this man has no degree in any scientific field.

Please sir do not be mad at me here it is

B.A. History (minor in Classical Civilization), UC Berkeley (1997)
M.A. Ancient History, Columbia University (1998)
M.Phil. Ancient History, Columbia University (2000)

he really likes Ancient History:) and he likes to play word games with modern molecular genetics. by pointing out famous well established scientific work to be flawed. he would make a great lawyer:)

What famous work does he state is flawed and how does he say it's flawed? Your criticism is vague and not specific.

Look at his arguments, not him.

Your spelling and post formatting is terrible, should I then conclude that you have nothing of value to contribute? Why is it valid for you to just skim that page then conclude he is wrong mostly because he is a historian? He does cite his sources, have you checked them out?

I am still waiting for you to render in your own words on rebuttle to one of these attempts to posit odds, and then demonstrate why you do not accept it.

Here, Ill make it easy, this one is pretty user friendly, and put together by people with experience in associated sciences

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB010.html

Read it (don't skim) then follow the links at the bottom of the page to learn more. When you have a balanced understanding of the subject that you are attempting to discuss here, return and discuss it rationally instead of being obtuse and embarassing yourself.  

i'm trying to be a critical thinker sir.

Difficult to see when all you do is latch on to one idea and ignore everything that contradicts it.

Intellectual honesty involves entertaining the idea that contradicts you own, and even vigorously trying to disprove your idea, attempting to explain it using another model, attempting to find facts which disprove it..etc.

It took my prompting to get you to be exposed for the first time ever to ideas which are contradictory.

I'm gonna have to ignore an elitist ancient history nut that wants to use words like flawed to strike down men that have worked very hard for lifetimes at scientific study.

Shouldn't be a problem, there is no evidence you examined his dissection of some of the more well known attempts to render probabilities for the formation of the building blocks of life.

I am only mildly annoyed at having to hold your hand to show you the fallacies you've swallowed hook line and sinker, but I'd appreciate some evidence of critical thought.

 

[velkyn]

pointless...a historian that is trying to debunk science is okay?
yeah Nazis were some of the biggest elitist of all time.  They were informed quite well and ignorant.
also there are plenty of incredibly smart and not ignorant people of this earth that have surrendered their lives to Jesus Christ. they are not uninformed sir.
to say im ignored because I dont want to listen to a historian with political agendas tell me that christian scientist or any for that matter are flawed in their research is plain old nonsense.
well sir maybe if you had lived in Nazi germany you would have been one of those informed elite members of society. and i would have been in a camp being burned alive for my religious choices.
(would that be nice?)
we as humans should try to live meek humble lives. with love as the foundation.

It's always nice to have someone sure that all atheists would be Nazis, or Communists, or whatever strawman they wanted to hit today.  And yes, there are Christians who are scientists, however, I can pretty much guarantee you they, by and large, don't agree with your version of Christianity.  Does this still mean that they are Christians to you? 

[Dragnet]

Ravi is a very good speaker. He speaks with authority though he really only has the authority of his beliefes.
The book of Daniel (which I assume you are alluding to) has been in dispute for some time.
When I was a believer I took the word of my pastors and people like Ravi.
There is still no reason for me to believe the Abrahamic god more than any other god.
But hey thanks for the conversation. I enjoy it more than you I think.

[MrFriday]

mcfriday hello:) its nice to see that you have joined the group here.

That's Mr Friday. I guess you are not strong on detail.

i do feel a bit out numbered but i enjoy the chance to throw around ideas with folks.

That's how atheists feel in a world run by theists. It's like trying to survive in an asylum run by the patients.

sir with all respect there are plenty of people that know they are mentally ill and admit it not "almost without exception" and there are plenty of self proclaimed criminals behind bars. that even are so self-righteous that they are proud to be there.

It sounds to me like you get your information about such things from movies and TV. I take it you have never dealt with inmates or worked at a mental hospital. Your assurances are of no value. I have plenty of experience in both cases and you are simply wrong. Sure there are some who will occasionally admit to their problems. But most of the time when they say such things it is just because they know that's what people want to hear. They try to manipulate people who talk to them.

This is all just like your assurances that God exists when there isn't even a speck of evidence. After a great deal of research into psychology, sociology, anthropology, neurobiology as well as the latest advances in physics and having been a minister myself, I'm convinced it is a trick of the mind and nothing more. You want there to be a god because it is comforting and easy. You are welcome to believe in any fantasy you choose as long as you don't try to impose your beliefs on those of us who don't need such crutches. If you have nothing but your own subjective imagination to validate your claims, I see no reason for you to be so condescending. I guess that comes from being part of the majority. But I don't decide what is real by taking a poll.

everything in life must happen for a reason. if not how could anything ever possibly work from the smallest details to the existence of the sun.

And you base this on what evidence again? Why do all theists think begging the question is a valid argument for something?

A general statement
if people suffer its because we have brought it on to our self or handed it to someone else. 
God is not to blame.

Of course God is not to blame. God is an imaginary character. But why is it that you want a God who gets all the credit for anything good we do but wants to blame us for everything bad. How convenient for your make believe deity.