Author Topic: The moment the worm turned for me!  (Read 3678 times)

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Offline Rebel-E

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The moment the worm turned for me!
« on: August 25, 2009, 07:36:42 AM »
Last year, as a service to my former church, I volunteered to photograph the Vacation Bible School (VBS), a gross missrepresentation of intent.  Very little of the bible was taught: instead, the young cherubs (some still in diapers) were "taught" (read - brainwashed) to dance to various songs denigrating the Theory of Evolution specifically, and science itself in general.  I cannot convey the anger I felt over those four days.  It was enough to make me realize that if the church can LIE about Evolution, what else are they lying about???  This led me to Google "did jesus really exist" and "did jesus really rise from the dead" - which led me to the FFRF site, and Dan Barker's famous treatise on the question...   http://ffrf.org/about/bybarker/rise.php

Anyway, here is the image I captured of very young children being taught the "song"  "I'm not a monkey!  NO, not me!"  Of course, the song was accompanied by four adults on stage, wearing pith helmets and jungle attire, like the little cherubs were really going to explore anything...  Complete brainwashing, and it led me to my enlightened athiest status today...



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Offline Hermes

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Re: The moment the worm turned for me!
« Reply #1 on: August 25, 2009, 07:55:33 AM »
Mine was much less dramatic.  I simply realized early on that the supernatural/superstitious parts including gods and phantoms could not be true.  At around 8-12 years of age, I figured I was just aware of that fact like other kids were aware that there was no Santa or Easter Bunny.  Still, I thought that Christianity was a net positive for about 5-10 years past that.  At that point, I thought it was both good and bad but served some positive purpose for some people.  Now, I consider it a net negative.

What puzzles me is that there are Christians that are so desperate to spread ignorance such as the anti-science proponents, while most other Christians have no problem with science.

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Offline Rebel-E

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Re: The moment the worm turned for me!
« Reply #2 on: August 25, 2009, 08:03:03 AM »
What's the point in ignoring reality?

The longer christianity ignores reality (including and especially Darwinism for 150+ years), the longer they retain their power base and money tree...
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Offline screwtape

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Re: The moment the worm turned for me!
« Reply #3 on: August 25, 2009, 11:33:18 AM »
That's horrible.  I wonder if parents actually know what goes on in vacation bible school.  I bet a lot don't.  I bet a lot just think they are doing something good - teaching kids about something they themselves don't really understand.

My mother sent me to Catholic Catechism class when I was 15.  Years later when I asked her why, she said she wanted me to at least learn about religion so I could make an informed decision.  I think that is how a lot of people look at it.  They don't see the harm.
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Offline Rebel-E

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Re: The moment the worm turned for me!
« Reply #4 on: August 25, 2009, 01:00:58 PM »
My born-again sister wouldn't (or couldn't) believe it, even after I showed her the images.  My wife, the same, even though she was there for part of the "show" and of course had seen the photos.  "Get your blinders at the church door!  Come and and sit a spell".
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Offline screwtape

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Re: The moment the worm turned for me!
« Reply #5 on: August 26, 2009, 11:16:37 AM »
My born-again sister wouldn't (or couldn't) believe it, even after I showed her the images.  My wife, the same, even though she was there for part of the "show" and of course had seen the photos.  "Get your blinders at the church door!  Come and and sit a spell".

What do you mean when you say they did not believe it?
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Offline Rebel-E

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Re: The moment the worm turned for me!
« Reply #6 on: August 26, 2009, 11:41:15 AM »
They didn't believe that the kids were being brainwashed...
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Offline Hermes

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Re: The moment the worm turned for me!
« Reply #7 on: August 26, 2009, 12:02:54 PM »
They didn't believe that the kids were being brainwashed...

Do you think that they consider that the content -- YEC, anti-evolution/anti-science -- was correct?

If not, do you mean that ...

... they think the content you said was being promoted is not an effort at brainwashing.

-- OR --

... they did not believe the content you said was being promoted was actually being promoted.
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Offline Rebel-E

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Re: The moment the worm turned for me!
« Reply #8 on: August 26, 2009, 01:37:32 PM »
They refused to believe that leading kids in organized songs, with choreographed dance moves was brainwashing.  We never even got to discuss the other ramifications of the "Bible School".  I would hate to think that my sister believes the Earth is 4,000 years old.  Then again, she does believe that she can aid in getting pregnant if she puts her hands on a woman's belly and prays...   (The Prophet from Lousiana!)
« Last Edit: August 27, 2009, 07:21:58 AM by Rebel-E »
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Offline screwtape

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Re: The moment the worm turned for me!
« Reply #9 on: August 26, 2009, 04:14:28 PM »
They refused to believe that leading kids in organized songs, with coreographed dance moves was brainwashing. 

What did they think it was, just some good clean fun? 
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Offline Astreja

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Re: The moment the worm turned for me!
« Reply #10 on: September 01, 2009, 10:45:11 PM »
Didn't Dan Barker write some music that VBS still uses?  That monkey song sounds like something I read of in Godless.
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Offline cvlspaz

Re: The moment the worm turned for me!
« Reply #11 on: September 05, 2009, 03:31:26 AM »
i'm only responding to the comment on your post that made it seem as if you accepted evolution is scientific fact.  if this is not how you believe, disregard the rest of this comment.  did you know that darwin only began his theory because he was addressing the problem of "natural evil."?  just as the philosophers of his time, he was inundated with the perception of God as perfectly good so anything bad or "evil" in creation must be explained away as not connected to the original creation.  (don't think i'm saying i believe necessarily in a six day creation here)  he was trying to solve a theological problem of the time.  he, just as theologians of the time, of trying o separate God from the "evil" (which is only described as what we perceive as inefficiencies in nature) found in nature.  even darwin wasn't trying to disprove the EXISTENCE of God, he was simply offering and explanation of how a perfectly good god could have been the creator of a world  which is "obviously" inefficient and "evil".  even since it's inception into scientific stardom, most "proof" of evolution is merely negative theology.  evolution's proofs rely on a specific victorian interpretation of what God is like and how he could create the world.  i'm not saying evolution is total bunk.  but i just think it's healthy to be skeptical of it as we are skeptical of six day creation. 

Offline One Above All

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Re: The moment the worm turned for me!
« Reply #12 on: September 05, 2009, 04:18:42 AM »
explain how evolution has been observed
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
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Offline Asmoday

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Re: The moment the worm turned for me!
« Reply #13 on: September 06, 2009, 04:35:42 PM »
even since it's inception into scientific stardom, most "proof" of evolution is merely negative theology.  evolution's proofs rely on a specific victorian interpretation of what God is like and how he could create the world.
Please come back to us, once you have a better understanding about the theory of evolution.

Evolution (and the evidence for evolution) has nothing to do with theology. Unless you perceive biology, genetics, paleontology, anthropology and a large chunk of medical science as being theological disciplines of science.
Do you really think, if the TOE was just a theological concept it would see such widespread use in real science?
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Online Azdgari

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Re: The moment the worm turned for me!
« Reply #14 on: September 06, 2009, 07:16:40 PM »
I guess cvlspaz must have gotten his biological education at Vacation Bible Camp...
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Offline xphobe

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Re: The moment the worm turned for me!
« Reply #15 on: September 06, 2009, 08:26:36 PM »
Complete brainwashing, and it led me to my enlightened athiest status today...

Glad it worked out for you.  Sometimes I think if they get outrageous enough it will have the net effect of pushing people away, like it did you.

Unfortunately some people seem to have a type of personality that actually enjoys thinking crazy.  It's like the more unbelievable the idea, the more they feel they're testing their faith by believing it.  Look how much I love Jesus: I can believe something totally stupid without batting an eye!

And of course, ya gotta start 'em young.  "Give me the boy at seven, and I'll give you the man" (Jesuit proverb)
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Offline Omen

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Re: The moment the worm turned for me!
« Reply #16 on: September 15, 2009, 09:40:48 AM »
I found the book that Cvlspaz is probably getting this crap from:

http://www.amazon.com/Darwins-God-Evolution-Problem-Evil/dp/1587430533/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top

Author: Cornelius G Hunter

The author is a professor of 'biophysics' at Biola University, although researching the Biola University itself reveals no scientific academia at all.. so I'm really boggled by what he would be teaching there.  Not to mention that Biola University doesn't list him as part of the staff.  Biola is an evangelical christian university.

What is interesting is his connection to the discovery institute, which obviously as proponent of intelligent design it is in his best interest to lie/misrepresent general science ( evolution ).  The intro to the book attempts to paint a picture of Hunter as being on the edge of evolution/intelligent design, but that is clearly not the case at all.  His website is the exact same equivocating and dishonest bullshit.

Hunter's website:

http://www.darwinspredictions.com/
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Offline Onesimus

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Re: The moment the worm turned for me!
« Reply #17 on: September 15, 2009, 09:52:05 AM »
Last year, as a service to my former church, I volunteered to photograph the Vacation Bible School (VBS), a gross missrepresentation of intent.  Very little of the bible was taught: instead, the young cherubs (some still in diapers) were "taught" (read - brainwashed) to dance to various songs denigrating the Theory of Evolution specifically, and science itself in general.

Wow, things are getting worse.  My parents sent me to every VBS offered in my small community (as a free babysitting service) and all I had to do was memorize books of the bible and eat cookies. 

Offline Ada-B

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Re: The moment the worm turned for me!
« Reply #18 on: September 15, 2009, 10:58:28 AM »
Of course they're not monkeys. We don't have tails, which means technically we're a species of ape!  &)
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Offline subtleinspiration

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Re: The moment the worm turned for me!
« Reply #19 on: September 15, 2009, 12:14:14 PM »
What is interesting is his connection to the discovery institute,

Well, is he Jewish?  ;D
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Offline xphobe

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Re: The moment the worm turned for me!
« Reply #20 on: September 15, 2009, 02:09:33 PM »
Of course they're not monkeys. We don't have tails, which means technically we're a species of ape!  &)

AronRa has a nice video about this.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igq_niFmXNs[/youtube]
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Offline Ada-B

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Re: The moment the worm turned for me!
« Reply #21 on: September 15, 2009, 06:07:53 PM »
even since it's inception into scientific stardom, most "proof" of evolution is merely negative theology.  evolution's proofs rely on a specific victorian interpretation of what God is like and how he could create the world.
Please come back to us, once you have a better understanding about the theory of evolution.

Evolution (and the evidence for evolution) has nothing to do with theology. Unless you perceive biology, genetics, paleontology, anthropology and a large chunk of medical science as being theological disciplines of science.
Do you really think, if the TOE was just a theological concept it would see such widespread use in real science?

Ah, I think I can see where cvlspaz and Asmoday are getting a little confused. I've been a longtime fan of Darwin myself, so I've read a lot about him.

Darwin believed that God was a God of laws and order. He was never a creationist - in fact the whole Christianity versus Science war was a much latter phenomenon. A lot of people disagreed with Darwin, but few saw belief in Darwin's theories a sign of someone being a non Believer.

Darwin was a typical (for the time), liberal, Church of England Christian with a fairly broad, ambiguous view of God. He attempted to do for biology what Newton had done for physics - find out what the natural laws were that ran the universe. To Darwin, Natural laws = Gods laws. At least at first.

However, as he collected his evidence, which he did assiduously, throughout his life, keeping copious notes on every detail imaginable, Darwin began to struggle to incorporate the idea of God as Creator into his developing theories. 'God' increasingly became a cypher for some unexplainable origin point of the universe - a "blind watchmaker" as it has been described, a God who winds up the universe and then stands back from a discrete distance. At this point, Darwin was more a Deist than a Christian, and began skipping church to walk in the countryside, feeling that 'God' was to be found in his beloved nature, rather than a cold stone church.

However, it was the tragic deaths of several of his children, particularly his favourite daughter, that sent Darwin over the edge, and into atheism. His wife became more and more religious, struggling to find a reason for her terrible losses, whilst Darwin was unable to reconcile a loving god with the deaths of his innocent children. The nail in the coffin for Darwins faith was the existence of a sort of wasp that laid its eggs in a living caterpillar, which then hatched and the larvae ate the poor insect alive from the inside out. Any god who designed that, Darwin said, was a monster.

So Darwin did not lose faith and then develop the ToE, neither did he develop the ToE to explain away God, and neither did he believe the ToE was the fine detail of the Book of Genesis. He was a Christian, he died an agnostic. To this day, the majority of Christians in Britain accept the ToE. They do not see a conflict. They see Genesis as allergorical and non-literal. Christian Fundamentalism started in the States and was largely imported back here, where it has sadly taken root. Fundamentalism, for its own reason, has taken the ToE and decided to start the battle there - but they were the ones who declared war, not Darwin.
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Offline velkyn

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Re: The moment the worm turned for me!
« Reply #22 on: September 16, 2009, 02:41:36 PM »
congratulation, Cvl, for being one more ignorant Christian who promulgates lies.  Always glad to see one more of your type.  You are such a hypocrite, blithely using the same science that supports evolution whilst decrying it.  I do wonder why such "good Christians" as you don't go live in huts in the holy land, piously refusing those things that demonstrate that your beliefs are wrong. 

i'm only responding to the comment on your post that made it seem as if you accepted evolution is scientific fact.  if this is not how you believe, disregard the rest of this comment.  did you know that darwin only began his theory because he was addressing the problem of "natural evil."?  just as the philosophers of his time, he was inundated with the perception of God as perfectly good so anything bad or "evil" in creation must be explained away as not connected to the original creation.  (don't think i'm saying i believe necessarily in a six day creation here)  he was trying to solve a theological problem of the time.  he, just as theologians of the time, of trying o separate God from the "evil" (which is only described as what we perceive as inefficiencies in nature) found in nature.  even darwin wasn't trying to disprove the EXISTENCE of God, he was simply offering and explanation of how a perfectly good god could have been the creator of a world  which is "obviously" inefficient and "evil".  even since it's inception into scientific stardom, most "proof" of evolution is merely negative theology.  evolution's proofs rely on a specific victorian interpretation of what God is like and how he could create the world.  i'm not saying evolution is total bunk.  but i just think it's healthy to be skeptical of it as we are skeptical of six day creation. 
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Offline mommykicksbutt

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Re: The moment the worm turned for me!
« Reply #23 on: September 27, 2009, 06:22:49 AM »
i'm only responding to the comment on your post that made it seem as if you accepted evolution is scientific fact.  if this is not how you believe, disregard the rest of this comment.  did you know that darwin only began his theory because he was addressing the problem of "natural evil."?  just as the philosophers of his time, he was inundated with the perception of God as perfectly good so anything bad or "evil" in creation must be explained away as not connected to the original creation.  (don't think i'm saying i believe necessarily in a six day creation here)  he was trying to solve a theological problem of the time.  he, just as theologians of the time, of trying o separate God from the "evil" (which is only described as what we perceive as inefficiencies in nature) found in nature.  even darwin wasn't trying to disprove the EXISTENCE of God, he was simply offering and explanation of how a perfectly good god could have been the creator of a world  which is "obviously" inefficient and "evil".  even since it's inception into scientific stardom, most "proof" of evolution is merely negative theology.  evolution's proofs rely on a specific victorian interpretation of what God is like and how he could create the world.  i'm not saying evolution is total bunk.  but i just think it's healthy to be skeptical of it as we are skeptical of six day creation. 

You seriously need to educate yourself.  Take the god-goggles off because they are keeping your mind from opening up.  Now get your butt to the nearest state sponsored institute of higher education and enroll in Biology 101.  Take a trip to the library and actually read some of Darwin's work for yourself instead of taking someone else's interpretation of it.  Form your own opinion based upon proof and fact and not from adopting someone else's pawned off ignorant opinion.
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Offline Jason

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Re: The moment the worm turned for me!
« Reply #24 on: October 20, 2009, 08:28:58 AM »
Yeah, thats pretty bad what they'll get kids to do.  I seem to recall some things like that in my youth.

Offline Mr. Philpotz

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Re: The moment the worm turned for me!
« Reply #25 on: October 21, 2009, 07:21:13 PM »
For me it came in fits and starts from childhood. I foolishly ask the question, "where is heaven" in sunday school class. I was nine. The answer was laughable even then. The teacher told me heaven was out by the north star somewhere because science was unable to penetrate that part of space, so god had pulled the vail over the eyes of humans to keep them from trying to get there without first being saved, and since there was so much evil in the world (we humans apparently are some evil MFers) he just wasn't going to allow us access to that region of space. Then like a fool, I asked what we were going to do when we got to heaven? She looked like she was gut shot. "we're going to do a lot of praying, and praising the lord; what do you think?" I suspect she wanted to add "you little imp." None-the-less, I wrote it off as maybe she didn't know, or just wasn't going to give me the real answer. However an iota of doubt snuck into my impressionable little brain.

Then Viet Nam 1967.  I was still kinda christian then, and I confided in my Vietnamese girlfriend we were headed for the DMZ on a dangerous mission. She said she would pray to buddha for my safe return. I thought what kind of pagan bullshit was that? (The fking arrogance of christians.) I think the carnage that followed did it for me. This world is too sick to be created by the supernatural, at least the benevolent sort. The church's answers for Nam were trite at best. "We just can't know the mind of god," or, "god works in mysterious ways." However theologians seem to know what god's will is for me. I'm rambling. Education was the real solution for me.

Offline velkyn

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Re: The moment the worm turned for me!
« Reply #26 on: October 22, 2009, 12:58:08 PM »
For me it came in fits and starts from childhood. I foolishly ask the question, "where is heaven" in sunday school class. I was nine. The answer was laughable even then. The teacher told me heaven was out by the north star somewhere because science was unable to penetrate that part of space, so god had pulled the vail over the eyes of humans to keep them from trying to get there without first being saved, and since there was so much evil in the world (we humans apparently are some evil MFers) he just wasn't going to allow us access to that region of space. Then like a fool, I asked what we were going to do when we got to heaven? She looked like she was gut shot. "we're going to do a lot of praying, and praising the lord; what do you think?" I suspect she wanted to add "you little imp." None-the-less, I wrote it off as maybe she didn't know, or just wasn't going to give me the real answer. However an iota of doubt snuck into my impressionable little brain.

Then Viet Nam 1967.  I was still kinda christian then, and I confided in my Vietnamese girlfriend we were headed for the DMZ on a dangerous mission. She said she would pray to buddha for my safe return. I thought what kind of pagan bullshit was that? (The fking arrogance of christians.) I think the carnage that followed did it for me. This world is too sick to be created by the supernatural, at least the benevolent sort. The church's answers for Nam were trite at best. "We just can't know the mind of god," or, "god works in mysterious ways." However theologians seem to know what god's will is for me. I'm rambling. Education was the real solution for me.

From what a WWII vet friend of mine told me, war can quickly make you an atheist. 
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Offline Mr. Philpotz

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Re: The moment the worm turned for me!
« Reply #27 on: October 22, 2009, 07:22:50 PM »
Velkyn: There is another way to quickly become an atheist; reading the bible.
"...their infants shall be dashed to pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up." (Hosea 13:16)
"Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled and their wives ravished." (Isaiah 13:16)
"....and they shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eyes shall not spare children." (Isaiah 13:18)

What did these unborn children do that so offended god? This is suppose to be the acts (via his human cohorts) of a loving, caring, comapassionate god? It sounds like the mind of a psychopath rather than a compassionate deity. How does god, jesus, holy spirit, (the all in one god) justify this carnage? Because they weren't believers? This is reprehensible behavior by any standard, and sick as shit!

I was depressed as hell after returning from Nam, and my mother suggested I'd find comfort in scripture. Wrong!

Offline Got Mayhem?

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Re: The moment the worm turned for me!
« Reply #28 on: October 22, 2009, 08:22:28 PM »
What particular Christian denomination was this for?
When I was a kid I went to a number of summer bible camps and nothing anti-atheist/evolution was ever brough up. But, at the same time these were run by quite layed back Catholics...the FSM be praised.
I am my own God
See the truth beyond
Through endless lies thy kingdom come
Glorified wisdom illumination tool
Self deceit it's the golden rule

Live your life you're gonna die your own death
There's no one above that's gonna take your breath