Author Topic: About the 10 Questions video...  (Read 1183 times)

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GodsAngel

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About the 10 Questions video...
« on: August 20, 2009, 11:26:08 AM »
After the first question it said that amputees don't get any miracles from God.
So, if someone is in a car accident and loses their leg, and they don't have any medical insurance to pay for rehabilitation or even prosthetics(sp?). If they then pray for God to help them, all of a sudden some doctor/inventor contacts them and says that they will give the amputee a state-of-the-art prosthetic leg and they pay for all of their medical needs, wouldn't you consider that a miracle?
Why or why not?

Offline tperl

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Re: About the 10 Questions video...
« Reply #1 on: August 20, 2009, 11:34:17 AM »
I wouldn't, simply due to the fact that you cannot prove this hypothetical occurence to be anything more than pure coincidence.  If you'd read through some more of the site, you'd realize the question isn't really about amputees and prosthetics, it's about the lack of any prayer being answered unambiguously as described in the Bible.
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Offline Max Kodan

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Re: About the 10 Questions video...
« Reply #2 on: August 20, 2009, 11:41:42 AM »
Considering that that HAS happened, but not everyone prayed for it to happen, it could easily be chalked up to coincidence.  Now, if you want a hypothetical question...

Let's assume what you suggested happened.  A man got in an accident, lost his leg, no insurance, prayed, got an experimental leg.  Now, since it was experimental, there was a bug that no one predicted, and a single flaw began, let's say, systematically killing all of the nerves in the remains of his leg, then up his body.  Eventually, he's paralyzed from the waist down, but there is little reimbursement because when he opted into getting the leg, he signed a waiver that said that the company would only pay for a small part of the medical fees if anything were to go wrong.  Now remember, this here leg was a gift from GOD!
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Offline Asmoday

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Re: About the 10 Questions video...
« Reply #3 on: August 20, 2009, 11:42:14 AM »
It´s not a miracle, simply because there is nothing miraculous about it.

It´s a simple case solved by Occam´s razzor: "entities should not be multiplied unnecessarily"
If it can be explained by coincidence with no evidence that anything supernatural happened, it is certainly stupid to try and flesh out the story with supernatural beings involved in the process.


Would you accept the "miracle" also as a miracle if the person prayed to a different god than yours before the doctor called?
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Offline Grimm

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Re: About the 10 Questions video...
« Reply #4 on: August 20, 2009, 11:43:11 AM »
I would call that expectation bias.  That is, isn't it equally as likely that the amputee in question, by pure chance, ended up on the short list of people the investor/person was looking to contact, for whatever reason?  How many amputees are there every day, and how many of them would specifically need the new experimental prosthetic, and how many of those would make good press for the company involved?  At what point does the probability - given a company looking for a bit of good press and a good cause  with their product - approach 1:1 that this particular individual would be chosen at a particular time?

The next question, of course, is what about the amputee in the bed next door that didn't get contacted.  Why didn't he get a similar miracle?

If you attribute good things to God without consideration for the 'bad things' that are introduced by that attribution, then everything seems like a miracle.  Perhaps it's best illustrated by turning the question on its head:  "why didn't the other amputee get a similar miracle, all else being equal?"

This is what is meant by ambiguity - have you ever, after prayer, gotten a response from god that is absolutely unambiguous; that is, could not be also construed as the equivalent of hitting the probability lottery?

The likelihood you'll think of someone within the same five minute period in which they die is about 1:30,000.   Multiply that by the.. what is it now, four billion people in the world, and it's exceedingly likely that in any five minute period, hundreds of thousands of people are having that experience.  Does this mean it's divine?  No.  It's just ... probable.  



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Offline Omen

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Re: About the 10 Questions video...
« Reply #5 on: August 20, 2009, 11:57:53 AM »
After the first question it said that amputees don't get any miracles from God.
So, if someone is in a car accident and loses their leg, and they don't have any medical insurance to pay for rehabilitation or even prosthetics(sp?). If they then pray for God to help them, all of a sudden some doctor/inventor contacts them and says that they will give the amputee a state-of-the-art prosthetic leg and they pay for all of their medical needs, wouldn't you consider that a miracle?
Why or why not?

That's the nature of WWGHA, it's a rhetorical device that easily points out that the ultimate problem is the miracle claim itself.  Miracles rely upon ambiguous, vague, or even non-existent variables.  They are also tautological in that any manner of destruction, death, mayhem can occur despite how much we reduce/increase the effects of a single event.. yet its still a miracle.

Example:

A. Plane crashes no survivors, plane misses school. Miracle!
B. Plane crashes everyone dies except 1 child.  Miracle!
C. Plane crashes and only one person dies, everyone else lives.  Miracle!
D. Plane crashes and everyone lives.  Miracle!

Just begs the question.. what isn't or what can't be a miracle?
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Offline Frank

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Re: About the 10 Questions video...
« Reply #6 on: August 20, 2009, 12:09:50 PM »
After the first question it said that amputees don't get any miracles from God.
So, if someone is in a car accident and loses their leg, and they don't have any medical insurance to pay for rehabilitation or even prosthetics(sp?). If they then pray for God to help them, all of a sudden some doctor/inventor contacts them and says that they will give the amputee a state-of-the-art prosthetic leg and they pay for all of their medical needs, wouldn't you consider that a miracle?
Why or why not?

Or if universal healthcare was available in America as it is in every other advanced country (and quite a few poorer countries also) then they would be offered a state of the art prosthetic limb free of charge. Does this mean that universal healthcare is a miracle. If so, why hasn't this "miracle" occurred in America? You Americans being so much more christian than us heathen Europeans.
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Offline Grimm

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Re: About the 10 Questions video...
« Reply #7 on: August 20, 2009, 12:54:51 PM »
This reminds me, oddly enough, of an anecdote.

(Yes, yes, you all can fear now.)


Not to long ago in my neck of the woods, an 80-year-old-man, claiming he 'didn't see it before he hit it', ran his car into a BMW dealership.

Yes.  He didn't see the dealership.

Anyway, he destroyed two cars, a large plate-glass window, and some building fixtures - to the tune of about three hundred grand in damage.   This was, however, widely proclaimed a miracle, and he thanked God for the incident.

"I wasn't hurt, thank god."  "Thank god no one was injured."  "It was a miracle he didn't hit anyone, praise the lord."   And.. yes.  More of the same.   Except...

... what about the car dealer?  If it was so miraculous, then the guy that owned the dealership wouldn't be out three hundred grand, and the salesforce that relies on foot traffic to sell cars wouldn't have had their day completely disrupted.  The finance guys that rely on business there would have had a chance at business that day.  And so on.  And so forth.

So - even if it is miraculous that this fellow went unhurt, the damage was still heavy, if not catestrophic, to everyone around him.  Where was their miracle?   
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Offline Ethelred

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Re: About the 10 Questions video...
« Reply #8 on: August 20, 2009, 01:27:48 PM »
Quote
After the first question it said that amputees don't get any miracles from God.
So, if someone is in a car accident and loses their leg, and they don't have any medical insurance to pay for rehabilitation or even prosthetics(sp?). If they then pray for God to help them, all of a sudden some doctor/inventor contacts them and says that they will give the amputee a state-of-the-art prosthetic leg and they pay for all of their medical needs, wouldn't you consider that a miracle?
Why or why not?

To keep it real simple.....

Why doesn't god just make the leg grow back? Or prevent the car accident? Or let the car accident happen but stop the bloke loosing his leg?

The big problems is that most christians have decided that no matter how bad something is they are going to thank god it isn't worse rather than questioning why a benevolent god would allow bad things to happen in the first place.

Imagine a famine in an African country that kills 1 million people....The christian mindset says 'Thank god that only 1 million died' rather than saying 'God, why did you let 1 million people die?'

Offline velkyn

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Re: About the 10 Questions video...
« Reply #9 on: August 20, 2009, 02:21:39 PM »
After the first question it said that amputees don't get any miracles from God.
So, if someone is in a car accident and loses their leg, and they don't have any medical insurance to pay for rehabilitation or even prosthetics(sp?). If they then pray for God to help them, all of a sudden some doctor/inventor contacts them and says that they will give the amputee a state-of-the-art prosthetic leg and they pay for all of their medical needs, wouldn't you consider that a miracle?
Why or why not?
so why did God hate all of those people who dared to becoem amputees before moder medicine and modern prothestics? 

I do love it.  I'm guessing you are a creationist too and want to use science to claim miracles but when that same sciencne shows your myth is wrong, you want to ignore it. 
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Offline JesusYourLord

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Re: About the 10 Questions video...
« Reply #10 on: August 23, 2009, 12:53:36 PM »
I thought a miracle was defined as an event that defies the laws of nature and can only be attributed a Supernatual being. For instance walking on water or turning water into wine.

The kind deeds of a person is not a miracle in any way. Is that the best God can do?
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