The Supernatural/ Ghosts

[jjolove187]

I would like to know if there are scientific explanations for ghostly or supernatural experiences. I have experienced many, so I am uncertain of whether or not spirits or ghosts exist. I've experienced the common being awoke but can't move or speak, voices saying my name and no one is around, being touched while awake and eyes closed when no other person is there, being lifted in the air, and others.

My thoughts are neutral. Please share your thoughts. Thanks.

[switch]

Part of what you're describing sounds like a sleeping disorder I have heard of, and part of it sounds like Schizophrenia. Seriously, I would seek treatment.

[StPatrick]

I've heard of sleep paralysis...

The medical community don't know what causes it, but they think it's the result of being woken up during the few minutes of deep sleep you go through every night.  The result is that you're "awake, but dreaming."  Maybe you have some condition that causes you to get it more frequently.

From what you're describing, it sure sounds kind of like that. Although this is from a TV special I saw a few years back and don't remember so well.  Ask your doctor next time you're in the office.

[Vynn]

Common hypnagogic experiences. I used to have them as a young adult.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypnagogia

People with religious beliefs or other mental disorders may think that they are communicating with spirits, god, or "evil forces".

In the hypnagogic state the brain has released a chemical which paralyzes the muscles. (This keeps you from acting out your dreams and sleep walking.) However, your conscious mind somehow "wakes up" while your sleep center still thinks you're sleeping. Thus, you are paralyzed and sounds in the room are translated into a "dreamscape" by the chemicals that cause you to hallucinate/dream.


If anyone is ever interested in doing this, simply get extremely tired somehow, and then lay down comfortably with extremely loud music on. The music should keep your conscious mind awake while your body wants to sleep because it's so exhausted. You should be able to hear the music and anything going on in the room while you body is paralyzed and you have extremely vivid hallucinations/dreams, even though you feel completely awake.

Warning: The emotions in this state are incredibly powerful, and you may feel as though you've broken through to some "spiritual" plane or other. Also, you may feel you've "awaken" and are walking around the room even though you aren't. Sensations can range from extreme panic and terror to extreme joy and "oneness".

[switch]

Neato Vynn! I may try that!!

[sparhawk]

Sounds like an acid trip.

[Vynn]

Sounds like an acid trip.

More powerful, and does not produce the "stress" on the mind that LSD does. (Also, it's much shorter, and seems more "natural".)

[jjolove187]

Thanks for sharing information, except for the person who suggested that I seek treatment...that was more like an insult and uneducated response.

That Hypnagogia concept seems to only apply to a couple pf experiences and does not explain others. I have been fully awoke when I saw a man standing at my window and legs going through my bed. I ran out of the room. My aunt saw the same being also in the house we lived at.

I suppose it will remain a question as I don't think any one person has the answer to all my questions. So far none of my research has given me explanations to my experiences, nor the experiences of other family members who encountered unexplainable incidents while fully awake.

[Vynn]

That Hypnagogia concept seems to only apply to a couple pf experiences and does not explain others. I have been fully awoke when I saw a man standing at my window and legs going through my bed. I ran out of the room. My aunt saw the same being also in the house we lived at.

Memory is a very interesting thing. Sometimes people can see "something" and then later, their mind fully believes it saw something much more defined and complex. At that point, the altered memory seems much more "real" than the actual event. Also, people see weird unexplained things all the time. They are mysteries to us, but certainly not proof of anything supernatural.

[bahramthered]

Last time I posted on thios board about this subject I got flammed bad but here goes again:

After a personnel expereince I was curious and did a lot of research and found some reputable people (and a lot of frauds) doing real research in a weird feild. I was intruiged and wanted to learn more. I found a ghost hunter team and joined them on a few hunts. Result. A lot of bordem and three beyond weird expereinces.

I have seen ghosts when fully awake, with witnesses (2 other people, with cameras), and had a "conversation" with one (yes or no questions from me, to it with specific questions answered and later verfied as legite). We got pics of something on two excursions. We even had objects move when no one was present (or could have been).

We ripped the place apart looking for a trick (litterally took the cupboards off the wall looking, removed every shelf, ect). We found nothing.

What does it mean? I don't know. I have a few ideas but last time all they got was scorn.

I do believe I spoke with Fred almost 2 years after his death.

More questions than answers I stopped going. I still don't know what any of it means but it definatly shook some preconceptions of mine.

[Anfauglir]

Very quickly:

Research into infrasound has shown that it can lead to physiological changes in people, without those people being in any way aware that there is a "sound" going on.  Such sounds have been shown to make people believe that a place has a "spooky" feel.

Research also shows that memory is not as fixed as we might like.  It can be changed after the fact - for example, we might see or hear "something", but after we have been asked a few leading questions and exposed to the peer group, we "remember" that we actually "saw a ghost".

Frankly, the most damning evidence to me is that damn near eveyone in the western world carries a mobile phone with a camera on it.  Digital cameras are more and more prevalent.  And yet, with all this picture-capturing apparatus around, how many unexplainable images have been captured?

[Dragnet]

Look in to Apnea as a possible cause.
When you are sleep deprived you experience all sorts of things including free standing hallucinations.

[bahramthered]

I know this hurts my own case but;

Electormatic feilds also have been proven to have an effect on people. I rember research on people showing two results:

Ability to give a place a strange "holy" feel.

Abiltity to encite strange no speific fear.

Anfauglir: I got (actually took) starnge pics that night. There's a lot of strange photos out there that stand up to examination. Head to the libary and search ghosts in their card catalouge. Admittedly there's a lot of fakes and bullsh*t. But there is real research out there which has found a lot of weird things, the problem with weird evidence is pretty simple:

You have to figure out what it means and convince people (or let the evidence do the work). Weirder the evidece the harder the job.

*Again I say I saw weird things. I do not claim to understand what I saw or even push any paricular theory. Personnely I hope someone disproves all the ghost evidence (including my experience) with a theory that deals with it all (and stands up) so I can be a full atheist again.

dragnet; I don't know if that was meant for me or not but I got plenty of slepp before the event. I'm pretty sure most the team was good. Odds of sleep apnea giving 3 people and 5 cameras (3 handheld stills, 2 video, 1 fixed point one handheld) the same dilusion at the same time are pretty remote.

[Hermes]

Meditation can also cause 'supernatural' results to seemingly appear.

I've found that I can control lucid daytime dreams when in the proper state of relaxation and concentration.  For example, I can change the color of the room I'm in or the objects in it, or even where I seem to be.  For me, visual changes are easy while audio changes (beyond silence) are rare unless they are attached to a dreamed up person.

Meditative states can be induced by using any mantra to concentrate on, including prayers (that tend to be repetitive or on a narrow subject).  It is likely (though I have no evidence or experience) that if someone meditated they could trick themselves into thinking that they were in touch with something supernatural.

[Anfauglir]

Anfauglir: I got (actually took) starnge pics that night.

Perhaps you should post them.

[bahramthered]

Two problems with that.

A: Skeptics never believe them.

B: I don't have the pics, the guy who set the hunt up does. Last I heard he was in afghanistan hunting the Taliban. (Wonder if college is still worth it?)

[Freak]

Two problems with that.

A: Skeptics never believe them.

B: I don't have the pics, the guy who set the hunt up does. Last I heard he was in afghanistan hunting the Taliban. (Wonder if college is still worth it?)

Haha. It's always the same story.

[jjolove187]

I know this hurts my own case but;

Electormatic feilds also have been proven to have an effect on people. I rember research on people showing two results:

Ability to give a place a strange "holy" feel.

Abiltity to encite strange no speific fear.

Anfauglir: I got (actually took) starnge pics that night. There's a lot of strange photos out there that stand up to examination. Head to the libary and search ghosts in their card catalouge. Admittedly there's a lot of fakes and bullsh*t. But there is real research out there which has found a lot of weird things, the problem with weird evidence is pretty simple:

You have to figure out what it means and convince people (or let the evidence do the work). Weirder the evidece the harder the job.

*Again I say I saw weird things. I do not claim to understand what I saw or even push any paricular theory. Personnely I hope someone disproves all the ghost evidence (including my experience) with a theory that deals with it all (and stands up) so I can be a full atheist again.

dragnet; I don't know if that was meant for me or not but I got plenty of slepp before the event. I'm pretty sure most the team was good. Odds of sleep apnea giving 3 people and 5 cameras (3 handheld stills, 2 video, 1 fixed point one handheld) the same dilusion at the same time are pretty remote.

Same here. I don't know what to think of it. I am neutral and open to learning more. Most of my family have experienced and seen deceased relatives and other strange things and there are no solid answers as to why. Many people have opinions as to why these events occurred, but no one has solid answers that are backed up by proof. I can't prove I saw ghosts but no one can prove that I did not.

[Anfauglir]

Two problems with that.

A: Skeptics never believe them.

B: I don't have the pics, the guy who set the hunt up does. Last I heard he was in afghanistan hunting the Taliban. (Wonder if college is still worth it?)

Heh.  So, YOU took the pictures - incredible pictures of ghosts - and neither kept a copy, nor an original, nor a negative.  Guess those photos weren't as dramatic as you've been claiming, if you were so uninterested in keeping a copy.

And I wonder why skeptics never believe in photos that are never produced?

[Anfauglir]

I can't prove I saw ghosts but no one can prove that I did not.

Very true.  And indeed I am sure you saw something - but its a long stretch from seeing "something" to asserting that you "saw a ghost". 

[bahramthered]

Wasn't my camera, or my film. I was just an extra set of hands on the project. How do I get to keep an orignal or negative? I did get emailed a copy of the pics, but when my previous computer crashed they died.

And incredible is your word. I said the pics got something. I've seen other pics like those, and just found anaolgies for you. (lower). IE I (and we) got something, but nothing special. Nothing in my encounter was deemed incridble by the team, just floored the curious skeptic (me).

There are photos that have been took, sceinftifically reviewed and people still reject them. I know Jim knocked a lot of weird looking photos out of the collection because they might have been various things that produce distortion. He might have done more, but I havn't talked to him in like three years (since he's a fanatic in his quests and I got to many questions out of the deal, and last I heard a couple months ago was in Afghanistan).

BTW: Lets say I had the pics. No doubt I'd be accussed of photoshopping them. I played with that just to see how had it was to do, answer half an hour of effort and I had better looking ones than ones I took.

Also I just did a quick search. Here's something I found:

http://www.ghostresearch.org/ghostpics/

Closest analog to what we got that weird night would be figure in the background, apparently standing close to whoever was questioning whatever was there.

we also got what might compare to the ectoplasma one in the one room upstairs.



I say this again. I do not know what I saw. I say Ghost because that's what we where suppose to be hunting. It's a word to me, not a belief. All I know are three things.

A: I asked questions of something in a room I couldn't see, that answered me and we got some pics of whatever it was (a shadowy figure)

B: I got answers in time to my questions without fail. We only got answers in time to questions (a natural phenomen likely would have banged on with or with out words being asked it). Those answeers checked with things only one man was suppose to know accoridng to 2 scources. His wife and his journel. That man was dead.

C: I do not know what happened that night. I make no claims other than witnessing the events that happened. Ghost, ET, phsyic illusion, hypntoized into believing, or whatever. I expereinced (almost wrote saw, but I don't want to open that again) something weird. Beleive me or not. All I have is my word. Jim has the rest. Honestly though what's the point in finding it? There's a mountain of evidence (from others), much of it rigoursly tested. People still don't beleive.

I sometime really wish I hadn't done this. It was a whole lot easier when I was on your side of the fence laughing at the chooks and their crappy pics. Oh for life to be simle as a straight up atheist again.


jjolove187: Thx. Beleive me I'm done posting this on this board.

[Anfauglir]

I sometime really wish I hadn't done this. It was a whole lot easier when I was on your side of the fence laughing at the chooks and their crappy pics. Oh for life to be simle as a straight up atheist again.

Thanks for the long response, and I sympathise - of course, you were only asked for the same level of "proof" we might ask of a theist who posited personal experience as proof of their faith, for example.

I think the chief problem when it comes to "ghosts" (and I use the word advisedly) is that the phenomena is not more widely experienced.  Certianly here in the UK (the "ghost capital" of the world) we are incredibly compressed into a land with a long history.  I would expect a couple of things if "ghosts" are what they seem to be described as - recordable phenomena that can interact with the living.  Firstly, I would expect that the phenomena would be repeatable - that a similarly equipped crew visiting the same site under the same conditions would experience similar results (especially if the targets were unaware of their coming).  I would also expect that there would be far, far more encounters with ghosts than we seem to hear of.  If "ghosts" can interract in an intelligent manner (as above), then there needs to be some kind of supportable theory as to why we are not running into ghosts around very corner.

With regard to your specific story, if you will - point A: I'm not clear whether you "saw" the shadowy figure, or whether it just appeared on the photographs afterwards.  If it was visible while it was responding, did anyone try to touch it, for example?

[bahramthered]

I didn't not see it directly at the time.

I did see effects of it's actions. There was spilled salt (I tasted it) on the counter. At one point it jumping in time to the thuds that where the answers. I tried to reach around and feel for whatever was doing it while the salt was dancing. Even ran a finger through the "epicenter" of the bangs. Felt nothing even when the salt was jumping. Another team member claimed to feel a cold spot, but I didn't.


I don't have time now, but tommorrow I might post what I learned about "ghosts" in my extensive reading before and after my event.

[Anfauglir]

There was spilled salt (I tasted it) on the counter. At one point it jumping in time to the thuds that where the answers. I tried to reach around and feel for whatever was doing it while the salt was dancing. Even ran a finger through the "epicenter" of the bangs. Felt nothing even when the salt was jumping. Another team member claimed to feel a cold spot, but I didn't.

Going waaay back up to the top - all those effects could very easily be the product of infrasounds - sounds so low that humans can hear nothing, but which can produce physiological effects (feeling cold, for example), and which can also cause things to move and jump.  I'll try and sort out a link - the book I am reading (that has all the sources) isn't with me at the moment.

Infrasound can often be caused in older buildings by wind going across chimneys, or over cracks in stonework.  Its something often undetected by ghosthunters as they -heh- don't test for it!

[Alkan]

I would like to know if there are scientific explanations for ghostly or supernatural experiences. I have experienced many, so I am uncertain of whether or not spirits or ghosts exist. I've experienced the common being awoke but can't move or speak, voices saying my name and no one is around, being touched while awake and eyes closed when no other person is there, being lifted in the air, and others.

My thoughts are neutral. Please share your thoughts. Thanks.

That's called sleep paralysis! It sucks, I know. I have it too. I hallucinated once that I was being dragged into an inferno. Great stuff...

Yeah, it happens when your brain releases a chemical to stop your body from acting out its dreams. You basically wake up without your body. It also triggers a reaction in the part of the brain that interprets fear. This causes hallucinations...

[Hermes]

Yep.  I woke up suddenly once and had that problem ... except that I realized what was going on and just waited a minute.   Stories of succubi are usually based on that phenomenon as many people report having a weight placed on their chest.  It's a misinterpretation; the room is dark, you can't move, your brain makes $#!t up -- AAAAAHHH!!!  MONSTERS!!!

[hayzelee]

your brain makes $#!t up -- AAAAAHHH!!!  MONSTERS!!!

Haha =P.