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Offline Agent40

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Re: Absolutely "must see" movie!
« Reply #58 on: August 24, 2009, 10:39:07 PM »
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Dr. Dailey received his Bachelors degree in Bible and Theology from Moody Bible Institute, his M.A. in Theological Studies at Wheaton College, and his Ph.D. in Religion from Marquette University.”  He also thinks that the end times are a-comin’

I do not support the Moody Bible Institute or believe that end times are a –comin’, but the research cited was listed at the end of the article. It came from places like the CDC and gay periodicals nonetheless. So why don’t you direct your comments to the studies and reports and not the reporter.

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There are also indications that Dailey’s paper isn’t all that Agent 40 would wish it was: http://holybulliesandheadlessmonsters.blogspot.com/2008_03_30_archive.html  We see the usual tactics of misquoting, using old outdated information, etc.  No surprise there.
 

No, it certainly is no surprise that a pro-gay blog would attempt to discredit an article that presents facts that portray homosexual behavior in a negative way. No surprise there.

These in fact were the sources of my link . . .

NOTES

1. Bill Roundy, "STD Rates on the Rise," New York Blade News, December 15, 2000, p. 1.
2. "Increases in Unsafe Sex and Rectal Gonorrhea among Men Who Have Sex with Men--San Francisco, California, 1994-1997," Mortality and Morbidity Weekly Report (Centers for Disease Control and Prevention), January 29, 1999, p. 45.
3. Ibid. 4. Ulysses Torassa, "Some With HIV Aren't Disclosing Before Sex; UCSF Researcher's 1,397-person Study Presented During aids Conference," The San Francisco Examiner (July 15, 2000).
5. Jon Garbo, "Gay and Bi Men Less Likely to Disclose They Have HIV," GayHealth News (July 18, 2000). Available at: www.gayhealth.com/templates/0/news?record=136.
6. Ibid. 7. Jon Garbo, "Risky Sex Common Among Gay Club and Bar Goers," GayHealth News (January 3, 2001). Available at: www.gayhealth.com/templates/97863827496203.../ index.html?record=35.
8. "Bisexuals Serve as 'Bridge' Infecting Women With HIV," Reuters News Service (July 30, 2000). Available at: www.mb.com/ph/scty/2000%2D07/sc073004.asp. 9. A. P. Bell and M. S. Weinberg, Homosexualities: A Study of Diversity Among Men and Women (New York: Simon and Schuster, 1978), pp. 308,
9; see alsoBell, Weinberg and Hammersmith, Sexual Preference (Bloomington: Indiana University Press, 1981).
10. Paul Van de Ven et al., "A Comparative Demographic and Sexual Profile of Older Homosexually Active Men," Journal of Sex Research 34 (1997): 354. Dr. Paul Van de Ven reiterated these results in a private conversation with Dr. Robert Gagnon on September 7, 2000.
11. "Survey Finds 40 percent of Gay Men Have Had More Than 40 Sex Partners," Lambda Report, January/February 1998, p. 20.
12. M. Pollak, "Male Homosexuality," in Western Sexuality: Practice and Precept in Past and Present Times, edited by P. Aries and A. Bejin, pp. 40-61, cited by Joseph Nicolosi in Reparative Therapy of Male Homosexuality (Northvale, New Jersey: Jason Aronson Inc., 1991), pp. 124, 25.
13. David P. McWhirter and Andrew M. Mattison, The Male Couple: How Relationships Develop (Englewood Cliffs, New Jersey: Prentice-Hall, 1984), pp. 252, 3.
14. M. Saghir and E. Robins, Male and Female Homosexuality (Baltimore: Williams and Wilkins, 1973), p. 225; L.A. Peplau and H. Amaro, "Understanding Lesbian Relationships," in Homosexuality: Social, Psychological, and Biological Issues, edited byJ. Weinrich and W. Paul (Beverly Hills: Sage, 1982). 15. A.P.M. Coxon et al., "Sex Role Separation in Diaries of Homosexual Men," AIDS, July 1993, pp. 877-882.
16. G. J. Hart et al., "Risk Behaviour, Anti-HIV and Anti-Hepatitis B Core Prevalence in Clinic and Non-clinic Samples of Gay Men in England, 1991-1992," AIDS, July 1993, pp. 863-869, cited in "Homosexual Marriage: The Next Demand," Position Analysis paper by Colorado for Family Values, May 1994.
17. Bill Roundy, "STDs Up Among Gay Men: CDC Says Rise is Due to HIV Misperceptions," The Washington Blade (December 8, 2000). Available at: www.washblade.com/health/a.
18. Richard A. Zmuda, "Rising Rates of Anal Cancer for Gay Men," Cancer News (August 17, 2000). Available at: cancerlinksusa.com/cancernews_sm/Aug2000 /081700analcancer.
19. "Studies Point to Increased Risks of Anal Cancer," The Washington Blade (June 2, 2000). Available at: www.washblade.com/health/000602hm.
20. Mortality and Morbidity Weekly Report (Centers for Disease Control and Prevention) September 4, 1998, p. 708.
21. "Viral Hepatitus B--Frequently Asked Questions," National Center for Infectious Diseases (Centers for Disease Control and Prevention)September 29, 2000. Available at: www.cdc.gov/ncidod/diseases/hepatitis/b/faqb.
22. "Hepatitus C: Epidemiology: Transmission Modes" Mortality and Morbidity Weekly Report (Centers for Disease Control and Prevention) 1998.Available at: www.cdc.gov/ncidod/diseases/hepatitis /c/edu/1/default.htm.
23. "Gonorrhea," Division of Sexually Transmitted Diseases (Centers For Disease Control and Prevention) September, 2000. Available at: www.cdc.gov/nchstp/dstd/ Fact_Sheets/FactsGonorrhea.htm.
24. "Increases in Unsafe Sex and Rectal Gonorrhea."
25. Mortality and Morbidity Weekly Report (Centers for Disease Control and Prevention) January 29, 1999, p. 48.
26. J. Vincelette et al., "Predicators of Chlamydial Infection and Gonorrhea among Patients Seen by Private Practitioners," Canadian Medical Association Journal 144 (1995): 713-721.
27. SPR Jebakumar et al., "Value of Screeningfor Oropharyngeal Chlamydia Trachomatis Infection," Journal of Clinical Pathology 48 (1995): 658-661.
28. "Some Facts about Syphilis," Division of Sexually Transmitted Diseases (Centers for Disease Control and Prevention)October 1999. Available at: www.cdc.gov/nchstp/dstd/ Fact_Sheets/Syphilis_Facts.
29. "Syphilis Elimination: History in the Making," Division of Sexually Transmitted Diseases (Centers for Disease Control and Prevention)October 1999. Available at: www.cdc.gov/nchstp/dstd/Fact_Sheets/Syphilis_Facts.
30. C. M. Hutchinson et al., "Characteristics of Patients with Syphilis Attending Baltimore STD Clinics," Archives of Internal Medicine 151 (1991): 511-516. 31. "Syphilis Elimination."
32. Homosexual advocates object to the use of this term (Gay Bowel Syndrome), which they say unfairly stigmatizes homosexual behavior. Health Implications Associated with Homosexuality (Austin: The Medical Institute for Sexual Health, 1999), p. 55.
33. "STD Treatment Guidelines: Proctitis, Proctocolitis, and Enteritis," (Centers for Disease Control and Prevention) 1993. Available at: /www.ama-assn.org/special/std /treatmnt/guide/stdg3470.htm.
34. Jack Morin, Anal Pleasure and Health: A Guide for Men and Women (San Francisco: Down There Press, 1998), p. 220.
35. Health Implications, p. 56. 36. "STD Treatment Guidelines."
37. Health Implications; See Morin, Anal Pleasure and Health, p. 220, 1. 38. Health Implications. 39. "Table 9. Male Adult/Adolescent AIDS Cases by Exposure Category and Race/Ethnicity, Reported through December 1999, United States," Centers for Disease Control and Prevention: Division of HIV/AIDS Prevention: available at: www/cdc.gov/hiv/stats/hasr1102/table9.
40. "HIV/AIDS Among US Women: Minority and Young Women at Continuing Risk," Divisions of HIV/AIDS Prevention (Centers for Disease Control)November 14, 2000. Available at: www.cdc.gov/hiv/pubs/facts/women.
41. Ibid. 42. "Studies Point to Increased Risks of Anal Cancer."
43. "Young People at Risk: HIV/AIDS among America's Youth," Divisions of HIV/AIDS Prevention (Centers for Disease Control)November 14, 2000. Available at: www.cdc.gov/hiv/pubs/facts/youth.htm.
44. Ibid.
45. Ibid.
46. "Need for Sustained HIV Prevention Among Men who Have Sex with Men," Divisions of HIV/AIDS Prevention (Centers for Disease Control)November 14, 2000. Available at: www.cdc.gov/hiv/pubs/facts/msm.
47. "Resurgent Bacterial Sexually Transmitted Disease among Men Who Have Sex with Men--King County, Washington, 1997-1999," Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report: Centers for Disease Control, September 10, 1999, pp. 773-777. Available at: www.cdc.gov/epo/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ mm4835a1.
48. "Need for Sustained HIV Prevention." 49. Bob Roehr, "Anal Cancer and You," Between the Lines News (November 16, 2000). Available at: www.pridesource.com/cgi-bin/article?article=3835560.
50. "Studies Point to Increased Risks of Anal Cancer."
51. Rhonda Smith, "HPV Can be Transmitted between Women," The Washington Blade (December 4, 1998). Available at: www.washblade.com/health/9901011h.
52. Ibid.
53. Katherine Fethers et al., "Sexually Transmitted Infections and Risk Behaviors in Women Who Have Sex with Women," Sexually Transmitted Infections 76 (2000):348.
54. Ibid., p. 347. 55. V. Gonzales, et al., "Sexual and Drug-Use Risk Factors for hiv and STDs: A Comparison of Women with and without Bisexual Experiences," American Journal of Public Health 89 (December 1999): 1846.
56. Ibid.
57. "Bisexuals Serve as 'Bridge' Infecting Women with HIV," Reuters News Service (July 30, 2000).
58. Ibid.
59. "Sexually Transmitted Infections," p. 347.
60. Ibid.
61. Rhonda Smith, "Childbirth Linked with Smaller Breast Tumor Size," The Washington Blade (December 17, 1999). Available at: www.washblade.com/health/000114lh.
62. "HPV can be Transmitted between Women."
63. Katherine Fethers et al., "Sexually Transmitted Infections and Risk Behaviors in Women Who Have Sex with Women," Sexually Transmitted Infections, July 2000, p. 345.
64. Joanne Hall, "Lesbians Recovering from Alcoholic Problems: An Ethnographic Study of Health Care Expectations," Nursing Research 43 (1994): 238-244.
65. Peter Freiberg, "Study: Alcohol Use More Prevelent for Lesbians," The Washington Blade, January 12, 2001, p. 21.
66. Ibid.
67. Karen Paige Erickson, Karen F. Trocki, "Sex, Alcohol and Sexually Transmitted Diseases: A National Survey," Family Planning Perspectives 26 (December 1994): 261.
68. Ibid.
69. Lettie L. Lockhart et al., "Letting out the Secret: Violence in Lesbian Relationships," Journal of Interpersonal Violence 9 (December 1994): 469-492.
70. Gwat Yong Lie and Sabrina Gentlewarrier, "Intimate Violence in Lesbian Relationships: Discussion of Survey Findings and Practice Implications," Journal of Social Service Research 15 (1991): 41-59.
71. D. Island and P. Letellier, Men Who Beat the Men Who Love Them: Battered Gay Men and Domestic Violence (New York: Haworth Press, 1991), p. 14.
72. "Violence Between Intimates," Bureau of Justice Statistics Selected Findings, November 1994, p. 2.
73. Health Implications, p. 79.
74. J. Bradford, et al., "National Lesbian Health Care Survey: Implications for Mental Health Care," Journal of Consulting and Clinical Psychology 62 (1994): 239, cited in Health Implications Associated with Homosexuality, p. 81.
75. R. Herrell, et al., "A Co-Twin Study in Adult Men," Archives of General Psychiatry 56 (1999): 867-874.
76. D. Fergusson, et al., "Is Sexual Orientation Related to Mental Health Problems and Suicidality in Young People?" Archives of General Psychiatry 56 (October 1999), p. 876-884.
77. Ibid. 78. Robert S. Hogg et al., "Modeling the Impact of HIV Disease on Mortality in Gay and Bisexual Men," International Journal of Epidemiology 26 (1997): 657.
79. Quoted in Gabriel Rotello, Sexual Ecology: AIDS and the Destiny of Gay Men (New York: Penguin Books, 1997), p. 286.



Offline Agent40

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Re: Absolutely "must see" movie!
« Reply #59 on: August 24, 2009, 10:40:30 PM »


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To me, this whole ridiculous discussion between Agent40 and everyone else boils down to this:

- Agent40 sees homosexual acts as "not good" (and forget about qualifying this any further - it's irrelevant)

- Everyone else is simply stating in one way or another that it doesn't matter whether we see such as acts as "good" or "not good" - they are simply "none of our business"

It's apples and oranges.

Not so fast. If society can make decisions like incest is wrong, or drug abuse is wrong, or slavery is wrong, then why not homosexual acts?

Yes, yes, of course all people are always free to do whatever they like. It’s their business how they want to live their lives, but please don’t pretend that we humans do not know certain things to be right or wrong/ good or bad? This is why we feel free to comment that so and so is a jerk for leaving his wife and kids, or octomom is an idiot for having done what she did, or 14 year old Susie was wrong to engage in sex with her boyfriend.

Right and wrong exist. And most people, though they certainly don’t have any desire to legislate stupid decisions, realize there is right and wrong. Some things are simply moral and some immoral. It’s always in societies best interest to encourage that which is moral and discourage that which is immoral.

Offline Agent40

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Re: Absolutely "must see" movie!
« Reply #60 on: August 24, 2009, 10:41:25 PM »

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That is an over-simplification of bulimia. Bulimia is a psychological condition where a person feels pressured - even when they're not - to stay thin, the eating disorder maybe that they unable to stop themselves from eating because a of psychological drive and thereby induce vomitting because either they're ashamed by their over-eating or again, the pressure to stay thin. The psychological issue can have be for a number of reasons. Also, it is still an unhealthy way of doing things, and if these conditions aren't dealt with it can lead a person to harm. Perhaps the least of the harms is the fact bile vomit ruins your teeth. A psychological disorder is considered one, when their is a problem in a person's head, and not because the issue is socially abnormal, because we'd be going back to the 19th century if that was the case.

But it's not 'immoral' that this happens, but an issue whereby somebody must be helped.

Not at all true. The practice of eating food and making oneself vomit goes way back. The Romans use to engage in such a practice where they would gorge on food and then go to their vomitoriums simply to be able to lead the decadent lifestyle they desired. They didn’t have psychological issues, or weren’t trying to be thin. They simply wanted to cheat nature. They wanted the pleasure of food without the consequences and unpleasantness of feeling stuffed. Quite sane, really. But is it right? Is it moral? Common sense tells us such actions are intrinsically disordered and therefore wrong.

Offline Agent40

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Re: Absolutely "must see" movie!
« Reply #61 on: August 24, 2009, 10:42:33 PM »
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No, buddy, it's on you to prove homosexuality is wrong.  Good luck with that. 


I think you might have that a little backwards. From the beginning homosexual acts were believed to be wrong. This idea has only recently been challenged. I believe the burden of proof is on you to prove that homosexual acts are moral. A far greater number of people for far longer have believed otherwise.
So, can you prove to me why homosexual acts are in fact moral? Good luck with that.

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In the meantime, don't tell anyone else who they can and cannot love.  It's none of your business.

Really? People in society do it all the time. Brothers can’t marry sisters. Fathers can’t marry daughters. A person already married can’t marry another. We tell pedophiles all the time that they can’t love who ever they want.

Offline Agent40

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Re: Absolutely "must see" movie!
« Reply #62 on: August 24, 2009, 10:43:27 PM »
As I predicted, as soon as I started showing the holes in your notion that there is nothing wrong with homosexual acts, I’m bombarded with numerous posts. I knew I would be unable to keep up with all of the posts. Therefore, I believe I shall have to leave things as they are. I believe I have made my point. 

I hope the next time you really examine life and think about what it all means, you’ll keep in mind some of the things I have said. We live in difficult times. Good has been made to appear bad and bad has been made to seem good. I hope you all are able to weed through the garbage and arrive at truth.

Offline Ambassador Pony

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Re: Absolutely "must see" movie!
« Reply #63 on: August 24, 2009, 11:25:38 PM »
Your thoughts are garbage. I read them all, and it was sickening.

Thanks.
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Offline Divon

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Re: Absolutely "must see" movie!
« Reply #64 on: August 25, 2009, 07:39:30 AM »
Agent40, the devoutly religious woman in the movie could not/would not accept her son's homosexuality and he committed suicide. So, in her shoes what would you have done?
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Offline subtleinspiration

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Re: Absolutely "must see" movie!
« Reply #65 on: August 25, 2009, 07:58:11 AM »
Agent40, the devoutly religious woman in the movie could not/would not accept her son's homosexuality and he committed suicide. So, in her shoes what would you have done?

Why, she would have followed God's absolute morality in killing her son herself, Divon. After all, not only does God command the death of homosexuals, he also demands the death of disobedient and rebellious children!

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Offline monkeymind

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Re: Absolutely "must see" movie!
« Reply #66 on: August 25, 2009, 08:04:43 AM »
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First, natural law has nothing to do with what is found in nature. Don’t worry, that’s a common mistake.

Did I miss the definition for natural law? I am at a loss for why agent40 thinks natural law has nothing to do with what is found in nature.

ADDED:Here is the closest thing to a def. I could find.

Agent40
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Let’s see, I object to homosexual acts because the body is being used in a way that it was not designed or intended.

My penis usually does exactly what I intend for it to do... I don't think you have a third leg to stand on.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2009, 08:33:09 AM by monkeymind »
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Offline Agent40

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Re: Absolutely "must see" movie!
« Reply #67 on: August 25, 2009, 08:15:32 AM »
 
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Agent40, the devoutly religious woman in the movie could not/would not accept her son's homosexuality and he committed suicide. So, in her shoes what would you have done?


I would have loved my son. I would have prayed for my son. I would have continually told him how awesome he is. I would have showered him with affection. I would have pointed out all the wonderful things about him. I would have helped him see how special and unique he is.

I would have tried to avoid constant lectures if it appeared it was not working. I would have adopted a less “in your face” approach by perhaps leaving books or articles that he could pick up and read on his own where he wouldn’t feel like he was being attacked or backed into a corner. I would have given him the names of others who were going through what he was going through. I would have given him the name of the group Courage where he might have been able to go for support.

I would have left it possible for us to have civil, logical discussions regarding homosexuality by always remaining cordial and peacefully presenting the truth. I would listen to what he had to say. I would make it perfectly clear that there isn’t anything we couldn’t discuss. I would make it perfectly clear that there isn’t anything he could do that would cause me to love him any less.

I would also make sure he knew that nothing in life is insurmountable. I would reassure him that what seems overwhelming and difficult right now won’t always feel like that. In life we all have different obstacles we are presented with – some more difficult than others, but all capable of triumphing.

I would recommend he turn to the sacraments of our Church. I would recommend weekly confession and daily communion if possible. I would recommend he try spending an hour a week with our Lord in front of the blessed tabernacle . I would challenge him to in fact see if such things wouldn’t make a noticeable difference in his life.

I would tell him God is always there, even when it feels like He may not be. I would tell him God loves him more than he could ever imagine. I would tell him to take his concerns, anxieties, fears, and worries to God. Talk to God. Tell Him everything and then listen to what He has to say.

If he still rejected the truth and continued to live a homosexual lifestyle, I would never stop loving him. I would continue to pray for him always, but never would I tell him homosexual acts were good or right.

He would know day and night the love his father and I have for him. We would show it in the ways we had been showing it his entire life --  by treating him like the unique individual he is. He would receive nothing but respect and admiration from us. He would know from the moment he was born how much his father and I believe in the dignity of the human person – of every human person. This would have always been a part of his childhood. He would have witnessed this in the kind of parents we are, in the way we react with our neighbors and family members. He would have seen this in every aspect of how we live our lives.
It would be my hope that we would harbor no ill feelings toward him and he would harbor no ill feelings toward us because we would continually treat one another with love and respect.

And though the road would be difficult at times, and quite a few tears shed along the way, I believe we would be able to get through such a struggle. With God – all things are possible.

Offline Cumulo Nimbus

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Re: Absolutely "must see" movie!
« Reply #68 on: August 25, 2009, 08:20:31 AM »
That would be wrong though, wouldn't it?

I mean, you're supposed to do what the bible daddy says, and he says to kill him.
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Re: Absolutely "must see" movie!
« Reply #69 on: August 25, 2009, 08:43:54 AM »
Quote
Not at all true. The practice of eating food and making oneself vomit goes way back. The Romans use to engage in such a practice where they would gorge on food and then go to their vomitoriums simply to be able to lead the decadent lifestyle they desired. They didn’t have psychological issues, or weren’t trying to be thin. They simply wanted to cheat nature. They wanted the pleasure of food without the consequences and unpleasantness of feeling stuffed. Quite sane, really. But is it right? Is it moral? Common sense tells us such actions are intrinsically disordered and therefore wrong.

You were talking about Bulimia, which is an eating disorder, there's a difference between Bulimia and what the Romans did, one is a psychological issue, the other is a conscious decision. It's unhealthy, and may seem disgusting to us, but there's nothing distinctly immoral about it and no, common sense doesn't tell us that, but perhaps natural law is, which itself is a flawed theory.

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As I predicted, as soon as I started showing the holes in your notion that there is nothing wrong with homosexual acts, I’m bombarded with numerous posts. I knew I would be unable to keep up with all of the posts. Therefore, I believe I shall have to leave things as they are. I believe I have made my point.



I hope the next time you really examine life and think about what it all means, you’ll keep in mind some of the things I have said. We live in difficult times. Good has been made to appear bad and bad has been made to seem good. I hope you all are able to weed through the garbage and arrive at truth.

Funny, I just picked a number of holes in natural law and your thinking and the only rebuttal you could make was on Bulimia and a culture in Roman society, which involved vomitting. As I predicted you're arrogant about your beliefs.

Oh and you've still failed to tell us exactly what's wrong with homosexuality, instead you've compared it to things that are unlike homosexuality and the examples have good enough reasons for being wrong and are not wrong because of natural law either, these 'wrongs' aren't transferable to homosexuality. So you've made a very round-about way of trying to 'prove' homosexuality is wrong without actually doing so, so really you've not much much of a point here.

To further offer some 'holes' in natural law itself:

- People interpret natural law differently and that 'natural law for human is known by reason'. Kant offered a great critique on 'pure reason', which blew the likes of Aristotle and many, many other philosophers out of the window.
- How do you determine essential traits of human nature? Human nature can be immoral. Traditional natural law has tried to pick out it's own traits, 'to know truth, to do good and develop as health mature beings', other philosophers like Hobbes have found human nature to be quite selfish.
- What grounds do we justify that we ought to do 'good'?
- The science of Evolution has challenged Natural Law in the sense that species have developed based on survival needs.(which could be seen as 'selfish' rather than the desire to do 'good')
- How can we infer things such as adultery, rape and homosexual as immoral from biological facts about nature or the inherent nature of humans?
- Aquinas and Aristotle are inconsist with each other when it comes to 'God's' role in nature.
- Human behavioir maybe solely reliant upon the environment they're exposed to (In studying psychology I know some of the schools of thought involve this)

I nabbed these concise summaries (and condensed them further) from here. As this forum requires us to cite sources.

My system for ethics takes those into consideration, whilst I encompass it with the moral teachings of Buddhism, it has the same moral end and that's to deal with the human condition, which are things that don't benefit us as a species and things that harm us as a species. We are social beings and the best way for us to thrive is for society to work and for people work together and no against each other. Thus bringing other human to harm is 'immoral'. Some may decide to sacrifice themself for a great means or be a part of a lesser of two evils. With empathy we may extend that to other species, though obviously we don't do that entirely.


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would recommend he turn to the sacraments of our Church.
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I would tell him God is always there, even when it feels like He may not be.

God and the Church? Are we talking about 'twisted bible God is loving'  type of stuff, or are talking about Churches who actually listen to the bible in its entirety and how God is in the bible? Remember, "for if you do not believe in what Moses said, how would you believe in me" and it was Moses that noted, "homosexuals must be killed" on behalf of God. Though it is not only mention where homosexuals must die. Jesus didn't ammend those teachings. If you read throughout the bible, there are many instances where Moses and God advocate and command murder, in contradiction to the Ten commandments too. The standards of Bible-God are very different to what you believe them to be.
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Offline subtleinspiration

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Re: Absolutely "must see" movie!
« Reply #70 on: August 25, 2009, 09:21:16 AM »
I would have loved my son. I would have prayed for my son. I would have continually told him how awesome he is. I would have showered him with affection. I would have pointed out all the wonderful things about him. I would have helped him see how special and unique he is.

Then you would have been sinning against God.

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I would have tried to avoid constant lectures if it appeared it was not working. I would have adopted a less “in your face” approach by perhaps leaving books or articles that he could pick up and read on his own where he wouldn’t feel like he was being attacked or backed into a corner. I would have given him the names of others who were going through what he was going through. I would have given him the name of the group Courage where he might have been able to go for support.

Then you would have been sinning against God.

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I would have left it possible for us to have civil, logical discussions regarding homosexuality by always remaining cordial and peacefully presenting the truth. I would listen to what he had to say. I would make it perfectly clear that there isn’t anything we couldn’t discuss. I would make it perfectly clear that there isn’t anything he could do that would cause me to love him any less.

Then you would have been sinning against God.

Quote
I would also make sure he knew that nothing in life is insurmountable. I would reassure him that what seems overwhelming and difficult right now won’t always feel like that. In life we all have different obstacles we are presented with – some more difficult than others, but all capable of triumphing.

Then you would have been sinning against God.

Quote
I would recommend he turn to the sacraments of our Church. I would recommend weekly confession and daily communion if possible. I would recommend he try spending an hour a week with our Lord in front of the blessed tabernacle . I would challenge him to in fact see if such things wouldn’t make a noticeable difference in his life.

Then you would have been sinning against God.

Quote
I would tell him God is always there, even when it feels like He may not be. I would tell him God loves him more than he could ever imagine. I would tell him to take his concerns, anxieties, fears, and worries to God. Talk to God. Tell Him everything and then listen to what He has to say.

Then you would have been sinning against God.

Quote
If he still rejected the truth and continued to live a homosexual lifestyle, I would never stop loving him. I would continue to pray for him always, but never would I tell him homosexual acts were good or right.

Then you would have been sinning against God.

Quote
He would know day and night the love his father and I have for him. We would show it in the ways we had been showing it his entire life --  by treating him like the unique individual he is. He would receive nothing but respect and admiration from us. He would know from the moment he was born how much his father and I believe in the dignity of the human person – of every human person. This would have always been a part of his childhood. He would have witnessed this in the kind of parents we are, in the way we react with our neighbors and family members. He would have seen this in every aspect of how we live our lives. It would be my hope that we would harbor no ill feelings toward him and he would harbor no ill feelings toward us because we would continually treat one another with love and respect.

Then you would have been sinning against God.

Quote
And though the road would be difficult at times, and quite a few tears shed along the way, I believe we would be able to get through such a struggle. With God – all things are possible.

Then you would have still been sinning against God.

God        9
Agent40  0

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Offline tperl

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Re: Absolutely "must see" movie!
« Reply #71 on: August 25, 2009, 09:23:48 AM »


Quote
To me, this whole ridiculous discussion between Agent40 and everyone else boils down to this:

- Agent40 sees homosexual acts as "not good" (and forget about qualifying this any further - it's irrelevant)

- Everyone else is simply stating in one way or another that it doesn't matter whether we see such as acts as "good" or "not good" - they are simply "none of our business"

It's apples and oranges.

Quote
Not so fast. If society can make decisions like incest is wrong, or drug abuse is wrong, or slavery is wrong, then why not homosexual acts?

Sure, society can "make decisions" on these things like you said.  And there are certain portions of society that no doubt share your view.  But I assume you are not naive enough to claim to speak for society as a whole.
 
Quote
Yes, yes, of course all people are always free to do whatever they like. It’s their business how they want to live their lives,

Good - glad that you acknowledge that.

Quote
but please don’t pretend that we humans do not know certain things to be right or wrong/ good or bad?

we know certain things to right or wrong?  I think you were more on point with your initial statement of how society "makes decisions".


Quote
This is why we feel free to comment that so and so is a jerk for leaving his wife and kids, or octomom is an idiot for having done what she did, or 14 year old Susie was wrong to engage in sex with her boyfriend.

This is simply free speech, which we enjoy in the US "society".

Quote
Right and wrong exist. And most people, though they certainly don’t have any desire to legislate stupid decisions, realize there is right and wrong. Some things are simply moral and some immoral. It’s always in societies best interest to encourage that which is moral and discourage that which is immoral.

I think your mistake here is that you believe right and wrong are absolutes.  Again, i go back to your initial statement - I think you'll agree that society evolves, and with it so does its moral guidelines.  It seems that you're simply fighting the inevitable changes that are coming...
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Offline Red McWilliams

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Re: Absolutely "must see" movie!
« Reply #72 on: August 25, 2009, 09:30:14 AM »
Not so fast. If society can make decisions like incest is wrong, or drug abuse is wrong, or slavery is wrong, then why not homosexual acts?

Haven't I already addressed this?  Society decided that incest and slavery are wrong because they harm other people without their consent.  Drug abuse (but not necessarily drug use) is wrong because there is a direct causal link between that abuse and serious health problems.  It has not yet been proven that there is a causal link between homosexuality, or homosexual behavior, and the problems you're ascribing to it.  Until there is, the only basis one can have for being anti-homosexual behavior is a religious one.  In the US, thankfully, we don't have to give your religious objections any time.
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Offline Seppuku

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Re: Absolutely "must see" movie!
« Reply #73 on: August 25, 2009, 09:38:35 AM »
I'll add that incest is also bad for genetics.
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Offline Ambassador Pony

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Re: Absolutely "must see" movie!
« Reply #74 on: August 25, 2009, 10:02:01 AM »
Red, I think you should have prefaced your post with a primer on the difference between correlation and causation. If you look at the research Agent40 posted, it's clear she doesn't comprehend that those figures don't support her claims.

 
You believe evolution and there is no evidence for that. Where is the fossil record of a half man half ape. I've only ever heard about it in reading.

Offline Divon

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Re: Absolutely "must see" movie!
« Reply #75 on: August 25, 2009, 10:28:00 AM »
Quote
Agent40, the devoutly religious woman in the movie could not/would not accept her son's homosexuality and he committed suicide. So, in her shoes what would you have done?


I would have loved my son. I would have prayed for my son. I would have continually told him how awesome he is. I would have showered him with affection. I would have pointed out all the wonderful things about him. I would have helped him see how special and unique he is.

I would have tried to avoid constant lectures if it appeared it was not working. I would have adopted a less “in your face” approach by perhaps leaving books or articles that he could pick up and read on his own where he wouldn’t feel like he was being attacked or backed into a corner. I would have given him the names of others who were going through what he was going through. I would have given him the name of the group Courage where he might have been able to go for support.

I would have left it possible for us to have civil, logical discussions regarding homosexuality by always remaining cordial and peacefully presenting the truth. I would listen to what he had to say. I would make it perfectly clear that there isn’t anything we couldn’t discuss. I would make it perfectly clear that there isn’t anything he could do that would cause me to love him any less.

I would also make sure he knew that nothing in life is insurmountable. I would reassure him that what seems overwhelming and difficult right now won’t always feel like that. In life we all have different obstacles we are presented with – some more difficult than others, but all capable of triumphing.

I would recommend he turn to the sacraments of our Church. I would recommend weekly confession and daily communion if possible. I would recommend he try spending an hour a week with our Lord in front of the blessed tabernacle . I would challenge him to in fact see if such things wouldn’t make a noticeable difference in his life.

I would tell him God is always there, even when it feels like He may not be. I would tell him God loves him more than he could ever imagine. I would tell him to take his concerns, anxieties, fears, and worries to God. Talk to God. Tell Him everything and then listen to what He has to say.

If he still rejected the truth and continued to live a homosexual lifestyle, I would never stop loving him. I would continue to pray for him always, but never would I tell him homosexual acts were good or right.

He would know day and night the love his father and I have for him. We would show it in the ways we had been showing it his entire life --  by treating him like the unique individual he is. He would receive nothing but respect and admiration from us. He would know from the moment he was born how much his father and I believe in the dignity of the human person – of every human person. This would have always been a part of his childhood. He would have witnessed this in the kind of parents we are, in the way we react with our neighbors and family members. He would have seen this in every aspect of how we live our lives.
It would be my hope that we would harbor no ill feelings toward him and he would harbor no ill feelings toward us because we would continually treat one another with love and respect.

And though the road would be difficult at times, and quite a few tears shed along the way, I believe we would be able to get through such a struggle. With God – all things are possible.


Agent40, your reply (this time) is actually somewhat down to earth and logical. Your method is only slightly more gentle than the woman's method in the movie (that you really should watch before commenting) so if it was your son, with your method, he may not have committed suicide, but probably only would become a crack addicted, drunken outcast, pushing a shopping cart full of returnable can and bottles.
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Offline Red McWilliams

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Re: Absolutely "must see" movie!
« Reply #76 on: August 25, 2009, 04:37:25 PM »
Red, I think you should have prefaced your post with a primer on the difference between correlation and causation. If you look at the research Agent40 posted, it's clear she doesn't comprehend that those figures don't support her claims.

 

You mean not everyone isn't incredibly brilliant like me and already knows the difference?
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Offline Ambassador Pony

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Re: Absolutely "must see" movie!
« Reply #77 on: August 25, 2009, 04:56:49 PM »
Red, I think you should have prefaced your post with a primer on the difference between correlation and causation. If you look at the research Agent40 posted, it's clear she doesn't comprehend that those figures don't support her claims.
You mean not everyone isn't incredibly brilliant like me and already knows the difference?

Yes, not everyone isn't. (?)

You believe evolution and there is no evidence for that. Where is the fossil record of a half man half ape. I've only ever heard about it in reading.

Offline Red McWilliams

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Re: Absolutely "must see" movie!
« Reply #78 on: August 25, 2009, 05:21:49 PM »
Exactly.
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Offline Agent40

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Re: Absolutely "must see" movie!
« Reply #79 on: August 25, 2009, 08:00:10 PM »
Uugh! Once again a group of people who don’t practice my religion like to tell me what my religion teaches. Jewish law is complicated and as I said earlier would comprise a lengthy discussion for another thread. The truth of the matter is the Church does not endorse stoning homosexuals. My beliefs are in perfect keeping with Jesus’ laws. There is no contradiction between what the Bible and what the Church teach – only misunderstanding. Jesus left us His Church to interpret the Bible. We should listen to her.


Here is what the Church has to say:

2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity, tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered." They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved


2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

-- Catechism of the Catholic Church
   


I don’t expect any of you, however, to take the time to learn what the Bible really means. After all, it is much easier to stand on the sidelines and criticize that which you do not know, then it is to find out the truth. Because the funny thing about finding out the truth is it isn’t up for personal interpretation. It is what it is. The truth might actually make demands on us. I understand how scary it is when one actually comes to terms with truth. For when he does, he knows he must live it – not always an easy task. I can see many of you aren’t up to the challenge quite yet.


Funny thing about truth, though – it keeps creeping its way back into our conscience. Sooner or later, it can no longer be ignored. The irony is, when one is finally strong enough to accept truth, he realizes it isn’t the limiting constraint he thought it would be. It actually is the most freeing thing he will ever experience. Please don’t give up. I hope you will all continue your search for truth.

Offline Agent40

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Re: Absolutely "must see" movie!
« Reply #80 on: August 25, 2009, 08:00:56 PM »
Seppuku, you are right. There are a number of different interpretations of natural law, but the underlying message is essentially the same. I like the way G.K. Chesterton explains it.



From G. K. Chesterton from “Brave New Family”:


“When Catholics talk, as they have always talked, about natural law, they mean something which could be better translated into modern English as the human law. They mean the law of mans moral status, as it can be perceived by man’s natural reason, even without supernatural aid. And when they say that contraception is unnatural, they mean it as they mean that sexual perversion is unnatural. That is, it is unnatural in man, and not merely unnatural in nature. It is something which his own instincts, conscience and imaginative foresight tell him is unworthy of his human dignity; not merely something that interferes with what comes form outside, like a shower of rain or a thunderbolt.”


“By the way, the Natural Law does not mean the Law of Nature; which moderns talk bout when they mean the Lawlessness of Nature. It means the truth which Man can perceive even through his own nature; without the supernatural that is above nature. . . . We need not notice the idiots who insist that we must mean noninterference with common external growth; as if no Catholic could cut down a tree.”



If people would follow this simple advice, there is no way we would live in a country that allows mothers to murder their own babies. There is no way we would live in a country that supports engaging in sex outside of marriage. And there is no way we would live in a country that supports homosexual acts.

Offline Agent40

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Re: Absolutely "must see" movie!
« Reply #81 on: August 25, 2009, 08:02:24 PM »
Quote
I think your mistake here is that you believe right and wrong are absolutes.

Oh, there is no mistake. There are moral absolutes. And this can be logically concluded. Gosh, I wish I had the time to address all these topics, but I simply don’t think I have time now to get into the argument to prove moral absolutes exist. Perhaps another time.


I would love to sit here and correct the numerous erroneous posts from all of you, but tomorrow is the first day of school for my kids. I have uniforms to hem, lunches to make, and bedtime stories to read. I knew I shouldn’t have gotten started on all of this. I guess I’ll have to call it quits – until another time . . .

Offline Red McWilliams

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Re: Absolutely "must see" movie!
« Reply #82 on: August 25, 2009, 08:12:21 PM »
Here is what the Church has to say:

Your church has no credibility with me and will not until they actually take responsible action toward the pedophiles in their ranks.

Quote
I don’t expect any of you, however, to take the time to learn what the Bible really means.

"What the bible really means" is a loaded phrase.  There are nearly as many "true" interpretations of the bible as their are people who profess to believe it.  I will point out that we have taken the time to try and learn what the bible really means to you, but you're not making it easy on us.

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Offline tperl

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Re: Absolutely "must see" movie!
« Reply #83 on: August 25, 2009, 09:51:04 PM »
Quote
I think your mistake here is that you believe right and wrong are absolutes.

Oh, there is no mistake. There are moral absolutes. And this can be logically concluded.
...
I simply don’t think I have time now to get into the argument to prove moral absolutes exist. Perhaps another time.

Oh, that's OK.  I'm sure we'll find the time to discuss it when you finally get over yourself.  

Needless to say, I'm done with you after those comments.
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Offline subtleinspiration

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Re: Absolutely "must see" movie!
« Reply #84 on: August 26, 2009, 09:56:27 AM »
Oh, there is no mistake. There are moral absolutes. And this can be logically concluded. Gosh, I wish I had the time to address all these topics, but I simply don’t think I have time now to get into the argument to prove moral absolutes exist. Perhaps another time.

Please. You've already proven you wouldn't kill your son if he was homosexual, even though bible clearly demands it. Are those morals not absolute? The bible says "Thou shalt not kill." Are you anti-war, anti-death penalty? And why would god make such a commandment, then turn right around and order his followers to kill others? Is polygamy immoral? Then why did god allow it in so many of the major figures of the bible?

You can't even get your holy writ to argue for moral absolutism, much less logic.
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Offline Seppuku

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Re: Absolutely "must see" movie!
« Reply #85 on: August 26, 2009, 10:53:04 AM »
Quote
Uugh! Once again a group of people who don’t practice my religion like to tell me what my religion teaches. Jewish law is complicated and as I said earlier would comprise a lengthy discussion for another thread. The truth of the matter is the Church does not endorse stoning homosexuals. My beliefs are in perfect keeping with Jesus’ laws. There is no contradiction between what the Bible and what the Church teach – only misunderstanding. Jesus left us His Church to interpret the Bible.

We have read the bible and try to understand it to the best of our abilities - we look at the bible as a whole and try to put it all in context. You see there are teachings that contradict each other - some that advocate horrific acts and others that encourage good ones, yet is always seems that Churches seem to be on either side, yet fail to consider the bible has a light side and a dark side. The issue with leaving the Church to interpret the Bible is that it leaves doors open for corruption, the Catholic Church has a long history of this, but even then different churches have different interpretations and over times even the Catholic Church has read the bible differently, today it is read very peacefully by Catholics, or at least typically, but there are some Churches that still don't. The fundamentalists do read quite closely and when you have a 'good' quote to offer them, they have a 'bad' one in return, whilst you're able to find example of the bible where you can preach love, forgiveness and good will, they are able to reply with the opposite. I have tried this myself, arguing the 'good' of the bible alongside Christians against fundamentalists, after all I'd much prefer it if they were Christian and were of no harm to anybody. If certain churches along the bible belt had their way, they'd stone homosexuals to death. Somebody on these forums posted a photo of a bumper sticker they saw reading, "Leviticus 20:13" (I think it was 21:13) which is the teaching in the bible where it commands homosexuals to be put to death.

Now for interpretation and the Catholic Church and its history, it has advocated immorality and have been responsible for bad things in the name of the 'Lord'. What I never understood was how the Catholic philosopher Thomas Acquinas used the bible to create criteria for 'just war', war isn't just and would Jesus have been against the whole notion? What about the most famous Christian attrocity done in the name of God in Catholicism? The Crusades, the aim to restory Christian control of the holy land, leading a crusade to destroy many Muslims, but Muslims were not the only victims in the catholic invasion, but pagan Slavs, Jews, Russian and Greek Orthodox Christians, Mongols, Cathites and so on. The Crusades were clearly religiously driven and I am sure the darker sides of the bible provided the perfect excuses.


So you tell us off for telling you what your religion means, but based on the evidence we're given, Christians are selective of the teachings they follow or mistaken/mislead, rather than following the bible in its entirety or necessarily in its full context. John 5:46-7 "For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?"

If this is what Jesus said, and you are the true followers of Christ's word, then you must believe Moses, correct?

Okay, Moses said this:

"Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable." Leviticus 18:22

It is evidence you would agree with this and I am sure Jesus would have you believe this to be true.

Yet, Moses also said this:

"If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads." Leviticus 20:13

Therefore you should believe this too. Now you mention the different in Jewish law and Christian law, but Jesus said himself to believe in the word of Moses, does that not amount to anything that Christians should believe? It would seem Jesus wants Christians to follow some Jewish law, otherwise he would not ask his followers to believe in what Moses said.

Though perhaps because that passage in context is the Lord speaking to Moses for the people of Isreal, you may not deem it relevant based on your interpretations.

Deuteronomy 21:18-21 is also relevant and horrific (another Moses teaching):
Quote
If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:
 19Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;
 20And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.
 21And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

Now, I can see a 'way-out' for both teachings, so how should one interpret Israel? Does go only wish for these laws to be only kept in the holy land, or are these the values of your Lord? Even considering, doesn't that not bring to question the morality of the God you worship? I can see these 'Israelite' teachings being the very things used to justify something like the Crusades.
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Offline velkyn

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Re: Absolutely "must see" movie!
« Reply #86 on: September 02, 2009, 01:01:41 PM »
Oh, there is no mistake. There are moral absolutes. And this can be logically concluded. Gosh, I wish I had the time to address all these topics, but I simply don’t think I have time now to get into the argument to prove moral absolutes exist. Perhaps another time.

Hmmm, again baseless claims.  But gosh, you never have the time to show just how ever-so right you are. So I must conclude you are simply lying again. 
Quote
I would love to sit here and correct the numerous erroneous posts from all of you, but tomorrow is the first day of school for my kids. I have uniforms to hem, lunches to make, and bedtime stories to read. I knew I shouldn’t have gotten started on all of this. I guess I’ll have to call it quits – until another time . . .

oh but won't anyone think of the children..... &)
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