Absolutely "must see" movie!

[mommykicksbutt]

...the more religious, the more illogical.

and the more bigoted!

[Agent40]

However, what about all the homosexuals who freely go on to live their homosexual lifestyles and still feel depressed and suicidal when they realize such a lifestyle did not give them the peace and happiness they hoped for? And what about all the homosexuals who commit suicide because they are unhappy and unfulfilled in their lives? Statistically, don’t homosexuals have a higher rate of drug/alcohol abuse, abusive relationships, and suicide?

Interesting questions.  They imply some thoughtful research.  What are the sources for the questions?

As always,

OldChurchGuy

by Timothy J. Dailey, Ph. D.
Family Research Council
http://www.frc.org/get.cfm?i=IS01B1

The Negative Health Effects of Homosexuality

Found at:

www.virtueonline.org/portal/modules/news/article.php?storyid=2940


 . . . newspaper New York Blade News: Reports at a national conference about sexually transmitted diseases indicate that gay men are in the highest risk group for several of the most serious diseases. . . . Scientists believe that the increased number of sexually tranmitted diseases (STD) cases is the result of an increase in risky sexual practices by a growing number of gay men who believe HIV is no longer a life-threatening illness.[1]



Homosexual Promiscuity. Studies indicate that the average male homosexual has hundreds of sex partners in his lifetime:


· A.P. Bell and M.S. Weinberg, in their classic study of male and female homosexuality, found that 43 percent of white male homosexuals had sex with 500 or more partners, with 28 percent having 1,000 or more sex partners.[9]


· In their study of the sexual profiles of 2,583 older homosexuals published in Journal of Sex Research, Paul Van de Ven et al., found that only 2.7 percent claimed to have had sex with one partner only. The most common response, given by 21.6 percent of the respondents, was of having a hundred-one to five hundred lifetime sex partners.[10]


· A survey conducted by the homosexual magazine Genre found that 24 percent of the respondents said they had had more than a hundred sexual partners in their lifetime. The magazine noted that several respondents suggested including a category of those who had more than a thousand sexual partners.[11]


· In his study of male homosexuality in Western Sexuality: Practice and Precept in Past and Present Times, M. Pollak found that "few homosexual relationships last longer than two years, with many men reporting hundreds of lifetime partners."[12]


Promiscuity among Homosexual Couples. Even in those homosexual relationships in which the partners consider themselves to be in a committed relationship, the meaning of "committed" typically means something radically different from marriage.


· In The Male Couple, authors David P. McWhirter and Andrew M. Mattison reported that in a study of a hundred-fifty-six males in homosexual relationships lasting from one to thirty-seven years, Only seven couples have a totally exclusive sexual relationship, and these men all have been together for less than five years. Stated another way, all couples with a relationship lasting more than five years have incorporated some provision for outside sexual activity in their relationships.[13]


· In Male and Female Homosexuality, M. Saghir and E. Robins found that the average male homosexual live-in relationship lasts between two and three years.[14]


Cancer Risk Factors for Lesbians. Citing a 1999 report released by the Institute of Medicine, an arm of the National Academy of Sciences, the homosexual newspaper The Washington Blade notes that "various studies on Lesbian health suggest that certain cancer risk factors occur with greater frequency in this population. These factors include higher rates of smoking, alcohol use, poor diet, and being overweight."[61] Elsewhere the Blade also reports: "Some experts believe Lesbians might be more likely than women in general to develop breast or cervical cancer because a disproportionate number of them fall into high-risk categories."[62] Sexually Transmitted Diseases Among Lesbians


The Journal of Consulting and Clinical Psychologists reports that lesbian women consume alcohol more frequently, and in larger amounts, than heterosexual women.[65] Lesbians were at significantly greater risk than heterosexual women for both binge drinking (19.4 percent compared to 11.7 percent), and for heavy drinking (7 percent compared to 2.7 percent).[66]


· Although the Journal of Consulting and Clinical Psychologists article found no significant connection between male homosexuals and alcohol abuse, a study in Family Planning Perspective concluded that male homosexuals were at greatly increased risk for alcoholism: "Among men, by far the most important risk group consisted of homosexual and bisexual men, who were more than nine times as likely as heterosexual men to have a history of problem drinking."[67] The study noted that problem drinking may contribute to the "significantly higher STD rates among gay and bisexual men."[68]


Violence in Lesbian and Homosexual Relationships.


· A study in the Journal of Interpersonal Violence examined conflict and violence in lesbian relationships. The researchers found that 90 percent of the lesbians surveyed had been recipients of one or more acts of verbal aggression from their intimate partners during the year prior to this study, with 31 percent reporting one or more incidents of physical abuse.[69]


· In a survey of 1,099 lesbians, the Journal of Social Service Research found that "slightly more than half of the [lesbians] reported that they had been abused by a female lover/partner. The most frequently indicated forms of abuse were verbal/emotional/psychological abuse and combined physical-psychological abuse."[70]


· In their book Men Who Beat the Men Who Love Them: Battered Gay Men and Domestic Violence,D. Island and P. Letellier report that "the incidence of domestic violence among gay men is nearly double that in the heterosexual population."[71]


Compare the Low Rate of Intimate Partner Violence within Marriage. Homosexual and lesbian relationships are far more violent than are traditional married households:


· The Bureau of Justice Statistics (U.S. Department of Justice) reports that married women in traditional families experience the lowest rate of violence compared with women in other types of relationships.[72]


High Incidence of Mental Health Problems among Homosexuals and Lesbians. A national survey of lesbians published in the Journal of Consulting and Clinical Psychology found that 75 percent of the nearly 2,000 respondents had pursued psychological counseling of some kind, many for treatment of long-term depression or sadness: Among the sample as a whole, there was a distressingly high prevalence of life events and behaviors related to mental health problems. Thirty-seven percent had been physically abused and 32 percent had been raped or sexually attacked. Nineteen percent had been involved in incestuous relationships while growing up. Almost one-third used tobacco on a daily basis and about 30 percent drank alcohol more than once a week; 6 percent drank daily. One in five smoked marijuana more than once a month. Twenty-one percent of the sample had thoughts about suicide sometimes or often and 18 percent had actually tried to kill themselves. . . . More than half had felt too nervous to accomplish ordinary activities at some time during the past year and over one-third had been depressed.[74]


Greater Risk for Suicide.


· A study of twins that examined the relationship between homosexuality and suicide, published in the Archives of General Psychiatry,found that homosexuals with same-sex partners were at greater risk for overall mental health problems, and were 6.5 times more likely than their twins to have attempted suicide. The higher rate was not attributable to mental health or substance abuse disorders.[75]


· Another study published simultaneously in Archives of General Psychiatry followed 1,007 individuals from birth. Those classified as "gay," lesbian, or bisexual were significantly more likely to have had mental health problems.[76] Significantly, in his comments on the studies in the same issue of the journal, D. Bailey cautioned against various speculative explanations of the results, such as the view that "widespread prejudice against homosexual people causes them to be unhappy or worse, mentally ill."[77]




Or check this one out too . . .


Fact sheet on homosexuality and mental health

massresistance.org/docs/gen/09b/.../chapters/Chapter-14_smaller.pdf

[Agent40]

the more religious, the more illogical.

and the more bigoted!

Always cracks me up when people can’t see their own irony. You wouldn’t be bigoted toward people of religion would you? LOL!!!

[Agent40]

I remember being taught Aquinas' Natural Law and looked up a few others, from my understanding, there's nothing anti-homosexual, you won't even need to explain natural law to me, just how homosexuality is morally wrong.

First, I am not anti-homosexual. I am anti-homosexual acts. Just like I am anti-pre-marital sex acts, anti-adulterous sex acts, anti-pedophilia sex acts, anti-beastiality sex acts, etc. These things are all violations of the moral order. It is beneath the dignity of man to engage is such behavior.

I'm glad you're not going to argue that one. Violent tempers, alcoholism etc. are things which are harmful, if a person is prone to alcoholism, then they must be helped so that it does not bring them to harm. What danger is homosexuality?

Your argument was that since a person might have a pre-disposition to same-sex attraction, it would be wrong to encourage them to not act on their feelings. My point is -- Right and Wrong have nothing to do with feelings. Feelings are not always trustworthy. If man went around making decisions based solely on feelings this world would be even more screwed up then it already is. I might feel like engaging in sex before marriage, but this doesn’t mean it is right.

Again, my argument regarding alcoholism was a person may be born with a greater likelihood to develop the disease. This of course is irrelevant and the reason one cannot use the “born that way” argument.

Just because a person has a strong inclination toward something does not make it right. Feelings have nothing to do with what is right and what is good. Let’s see, “I don’t feel like going to work today.”, “I don’t feel like feeding my children today.”, “I don’t feel like keeping my marriage vows.” Good thing many of us don’t let our feelings be our guide.

Those things in life that will bring us the most peace and happiness are not based on feelings. Truth is external. Truth is not determined on how I feel about it, even though society is constantly trying to say otherwise. If a woman is 8 weeks pregnant, there is either a human being growing inside of her, or there is not. Whatever is growing inside of her does not change based on her opinion or on what she wants it to be. It is what it is. It cannot be a baby for one woman and a blob of tissue for another. It cannot be a baby if you want it to be and a blob of tissue if you want it to be. This is illogical. Someone is wrong. (and if you aren’t sure which one – why don’t you take 9 months to decide and see what you think). We can convince ourselves of a great many things, but truth does not change.

Therefore, we cannot always rely on feelings and emotions when determining what the right thing to do is. Whether homosexual acts are immoral has nothing to do with how strongly a person may have a same-sex attraction. It also has nothing to do with how nice a person they are, or how much they desire for homosexual acts to be ok. Or how “in love” they feel. The right and wrong of the behavior is external to feelings. It is what it is. It’s also worth mentioning actual LOVE is not a feeling – it’s a decision.

And yes, anytime one engages in immoral behavior someone is hurt. It may not always be obvious or directly manifested, but it is never in one’s best interest or society’s best interest to do something immoral.

If we condemn the act of homosexuality, then it's still going to give a judgmental attitude towards the homosexual, that what's natural for them is morally wrong.

How can you be so sure it isn’t immoral? Remember – the fact that it is natural for them has nothing to do with whether it is right – It might be perfectly natural and normal to want to drink one self silly every day. But to get completely blitzed is not in man’s best interest. It is quite natural for a pedophile to be sexually stimulated from children, but never in his best interest to act according to his nature. We all know pedophilia is disordered. And it isn’t simply because children can get hurt. All would agree that in fact being sexually attracted to small children does not follow the natural order. We inherently know that such is not in accordance with the design of things. If someone has such an inclination, they are not a bad person, but their sexual attraction to children is disordered. It is simply not right.

Is it really that dangerous to be a homosexual? If you're going to talk about diseases, then there's plenty in heterosexual activities.

It’s a deception. It’s never in man’s best interest to do that which is not right and good and in accordance with natural law. If we violate natural law – there are consequences. It is not to our physical or mental well-being or for the benefit of society in general to not remain true to natural law.

This is based on the psychology that if you repress your emotions, then they'll surface one way or another, this psychology has been around since the days of Freud and is generally applicable. If you repress anything is generally accepted that it's likely to do you harm if it builds up. Repression has been known to cause psychological abnormalities like schizophrenia, though it can be anger, depression or even fear. Repression can be emotions and memories. When you visit the psychiatrist, you may find that the things you've repressed surfacing from your unconscious mind but not in unnatural ways...sometimes people learn that they're homosexuals this way as well. This isn't some psychology of recent years that comes with the time, but something that is practiced and shown to be true through practice. Repressing your homosexual emotions isn't curing you of anything, it's more likely to do you harm.

Perhaps the individual could look at psychological reasons they may have a same sex attraction. After all, there has been no “gay gene” found. Therefore, a good psychologist might be able to determine underlying reasons why a person may feel they are “gay.” If something happened during their childhood or upbringing that affected the development of their sexuality – I would think that might want to be further explored. Or, if no external causes can be determined, on could discuss with a psychologist the most appropriate ways to deal with what they are feeling. It would be a mistake and a lie for anyone to tell them that living a homosexual lifestyle is in their best interest.
 

Quote
Current psychology tells us pornography is harmless and can be a great stress release.

How is it harmful? You don't necessarily objectify women through it - in fact there are many couples that watch porn together. I've not heard of any other arguments as to why 'porn' is harmful...well except maybe the 'God' argument, but as an atheist it's impossible to apply.

If you purchase/watch porn – you are contributing to an industry that notoriously exploits women. If you think the majority of women in the porn business are there by choice, you are naïve. Many are young, lost, confused girls. Many are junkies simply trying to find away to support their habit. Every time you contribute to the continuation of that industry you are perpetuating an oppressive industry and harming society. 


Pornography allows one person to view another person as simply a thing – an object. It devalues the human person. You can justify it anyway you like, but it is beneath man’s dignity to support/view/be a part of pornography. It’s immoral. If a person really cared about women and children, they would not encourage/support pornography.

We criticize some groups for treating women as second-class citizens and criticize when they are viewed in an inferior status. Yet, cannot even see that our western culture does the exact same thing in the porn business. And then we try to make ourselves feel better by saying it’s their choice. No one is forcing them. Hmmm? No doubt, the groups that deny their women freedoms make the same claims. It’s a little hard to argue that a woman would want to be thought of as body part and used for someone else’s selfish pleasure. Is this really the freedom we Americans are proud of?

. . . personally I don't see anything 'immoral' about pre-marital sex.

Shocker!

I can't even see where marriage would fall under 'natural law' as it's a social thing.

This statement merely proves you don’t really understand natural law. Again, it isn’t about what is man-made (ie: the institution of marriage). I believe you still do not have a proper understanding of what is meant by natural law.


Again, you and I could go back and forth forever whether homosexual acts are immoral. I base my argument on natural law. What do you base your argument on?


How can you be so sure I am not right about this? Tell me, other than “feelings” what is it about homosexual acts that you see as good and right? The body was designed to function in a certain way. This can be determined by simply being an observer of life. Design means something. It is unarguable that the penus was designed to fit into the vagina and produce children. The fact that the body was not intended to have objects enter the anus is evident in the consequence of it resulting in more disease were one to do so vs. vaginal sexual intercourse and the consequence that such love is lifeless and can never bring about new life.


A person may feel homosexual acts are good, but such acts go against the natural order. They are disordered.


Let’s see, I object to homosexual acts because the body is being used in a way that it was not designed or intended. It’s simply wrong for man to think he does not have to follow natural law. It’s also foolish. For when one violates natural law – good is not able to flourish.


Let’s see, my position is based on logic, reason and facts. What is yours based on? Oh, yeah, -- “feelings.” While I can sympathize a great deal with a tortured soul having strong same-sex feelings, if I care about the person, I would help them see regardless of feelings, we are expected to abide by truth. That which is wrong and immoral can never bring peace. Only living truth can give one freedom. A person living a homosexual lifestyle will never be free. However, there are a great many homosexuals who accept this truth and are free (Look up a group called Courage).


I don’t want to get into an on-going debate here regarding the immorality of homosexual acts. My whole point in commenting on this thread was simply because I believe it a person’s obligation to stand up for truth. I know I am speaking to a group that probably does not accept this truth, but nonetheless, it is important for you to realize that even if you get a large number of people to think the same way you do, it doesn’t change truth. No matter how many LifeTime movies they air depicting homosexual acts as good will never make them so. They will always be wrong.

 

Now, I realize I will be attacked on all sides by presenting such truth on such a forum. Don’t take it personally if I do not respond back. I believe I have made my points and do not feel like spending the next week debating this issue with anyone. If I keep responding, this thread will simply keep on going like another thread I can’t seem to get out of that is now in the bottomless pit. I don’t really have the time now to engage in another battle. Hope you understand. Besides, I’ve probably made many of the same comments I would end up making were I to stick around here in the thread we have going called Reproduction Morality – IVF and NFP. Check it out if you want.

[subtleinspiration]

Do you support the death penalty for people who engage in homosexual practice, as is ordered by God in Leviticus?

[pianodwarf]

However, what about all the homosexuals who freely go on to live their homosexual lifestyles and still feel depressed and suicidal when they realize such a lifestyle did not give them the peace and happiness they hoped for? And what about all the homosexuals who commit suicide because they are unhappy and unfulfilled in their lives? Statistically, don’t homosexuals have a higher rate of drug/alcohol abuse, abusive relationships, and suicide?

OldChurchGuy

Gays have to go thru life being constantly told that the way they were born is twisted, sick, and depraved, and that they're going to burn in hell forever unless they force themselves to pretend that they're not who they are.  They have to live in constant fear that they're going to be assaulted at any time simply because of who they are.  They face discrimination in every area of their lives.  (In fact, being constantly treated like that has been shown to cause Borderline Personality Disorder.  Roughly one out of every ten people with BPD ends up committing suicide.)

The reason gays have so many problems with drugs, depression, and suicide isn't that they're gay.  It's that society treats gays like garbage.

[Seppuku]

I don't have time to answer your point, but just this one thing that caught my attention:

How can you be so sure it isn’t immoral?

You seem so sure that it is immoral, and we are sure that it isn't. A similar question applies to you, "how can you be so sure it isn't moral?" There's different ways of defining 'morality' and looking at it, I have take a more utlitarian approach to morality - and a general principle of 'if it doesn't hurt people -, that includes directly and indirectly then it isn't wrong', (though the statement cannot be universally applied, because some things that 'hurt' can a person, or somebody may do something, yet are willing to accept risks of their own health and well-being, for example soldiers, stunt-men, police offcers etc.) because I don't believe in a divine influence, nor do I support the notion of natural law, so when I look out at the world, I see it effecting nobody except homosexual couples, who both choose to act upon each other a nobody needn't be effected. It doesn't effect their after life and it does disrupt any part of the natural order.

If it does no harm, then why should it bother us or be considered immoral? You might argue from the standpoint of a Christian, after all in your perception of things a God is out there judging us for our behaviour - or at least pressumably that's what you believe, unfortunately Christians aren't always consistent with each other's beliefs. Then of course I'd have to bring down questions to God, "why have to decided this harmless act to be immoral and condemn them for their acts as you do? And why did you say what you said in Leviticus 20:13? Isn't that a tad bit harsh?"

[Red McWilliams]

The reason gays have so many problems with drugs, depression, and suicide isn't that they're gay.  It's that society treats gays like garbage.

I'm not sure I would state this so unequivocally, but it is certainly a worthwhile question.  Do gay people have more trouble with drugs, depression, violence et al[1] simply because they're gay or are there other societal pressures that cause these issues?  If there weren't people like Agent40 around to tell them how they're wrong, perhaps they wouldn't have these issues.

And most anti-homosexuals I've heard from take the same attitude that Agent40 does, that homosexuality in itself isn't the problem, it's the homosexual acts.  If that's the case, do non practicing homosexuals fare any better with regard to alcohol and depression?  In other words, is there something within the homosexual mind that causes these issues or do they only arise after engaging in homosexual activities?

In my very uneducated opinion, I can't see how having homosexual sex magically activates the depression, drugs and domestic violence lobe in the brain.  If there really is something about homosexuality that causes an increase in those behaviors, it's going to be there whether or not they have gay sex or not.  In that case the "I'm not anti-homosexual, I'm just anti-homosexual act" bit is fallacious.

I do think more study into the causes of homosexual drug abuse and what not would be a good idea.

By the way Agent40, this is a discussion forum not a "drop a load on the page and leave" forum.  If you didn't want to discuss your ideas in this thread, you shouldn't post them.  I'm not about to wade through a 30 page thread to discuss something that you already posted here.  That's bullshit that you would expect otherwise.  If you just want to air your opinions, start a blog.

1.	and how sure are we that have significantly more trouble with this than heterosexuals?

[mommykicksbutt]

the more religious, the more illogical.

and the more bigoted!

Always cracks me up when people can’t see their own irony. You wouldn’t be bigoted toward people of religion would you? LOL!!!

Actually I'm NOT!  I can firmly state this since I'm very happily married to a very faithful christian man.  Religion is always an interesting subject around here.  IF I hold any bigotry it would be toward ignorance and the propagation of such.

Religious ignorance is what I find unbelievable and ironic.  "He without sin shall cast the first stone."  What a joke!

[monkeymind]

Wow take a look at these immoral lower-life forms!
http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2009/06/samese/

[Agent40]

Do you support the death penalty for people who engage in homosexual practice, as is ordered by God in Leviticus?

No. It was a different time. Historical context must always be taken into account. Do you support the hanging of African Americans? Do you support throwing thieves to the lions?

And of course Leviticus is always misunderstood. If you want to discuss the significance of Jewish law and Leviticus start a new thread.

I also don’t support the death penalty for those who have an abortion, but it doesn’t mean abortion is not still wrong.

Gays have to go thru life being constantly told that the way they were born is twisted, sick, and depraved, and that they're going to burn in hell forever unless they force themselves to pretend that they're not who they are.

I’m not advocating this harsh approach you present, but would it be twisted and sick to inform a pedophile even if he can’t help his feelings, he should not act on them?


 

They have to live in constant fear that they're going to be assaulted at any time simply because of who they are.

They do? The majority of rape victims are women. Does this mean women must go thru life in constant fear that they will be assaulted at any time simply because of who they are? Nice try.



 

They face discrimination in every area of their lives.

What kind of discrimination are we talking about? I can’t think of a single thing a homosexual is not able to do that a heterosexual is.

The reason gays have so many problems with drugs, depression, and suicide isn't that they're gay.  It's that society treats gays like garbage

I think I am going to need a little evidence for that claim.

[Agent40]

How can you be so sure it isn’t immoral?

You seem so sure that it is immoral, and we are sure that it isn't. A similar question applies to you, "how can you be so sure it isn't moral?"

My entire post addressed that point. My position is based on logic, facts, science, right reason, and observation of life and the way things work. Your position is illogical. It’s emotional and not based on facts.

There's different ways of defining 'morality' and looking at it, I have take a more utlitarian approach to morality - and a general principle of 'if it doesn't hurt people -, that includes directly and indirectly then it isn't wrong',

The argument that a person is harmed is subjective. Is a student that consents to have a sexual relationship with their teacher harmed? Is a man that is abusive to his wife harmed if she cheats on him with another man? Is anyone harmed if a person has sex with their dog? Are two consenting adults harmed when they engage in sex outside of marriage? What if their relationship results in an unplanned pregnancy? Now, has someone been harmed? If a person eats a bunch of food and then vomits it up because they want the pleasure of eating, but not the consequences of the calories is that wrong? Is anyone being harmed? I believe society calls it wrong. If fact, we label it bulimia and call it a disorder. What is disordered? The idea that humans were meant to eat food and allow the body to properly function by digesting that food. When a person tries to change what the body is suppose to be used for – we would say that is disordered – not the proper order of things. It’s a violation of nature and therefore, we all inherently know it to be wrong. Sorry, but to argue that no one is harmed in a homosexual relationship is most certainly up for debate.


 

 

You might argue from the standpoint of a Christian, after all in your perception of things a God is out there judging us for our behaviour –

Did I cite the Bible? Did I say God is judging homosexuals? I believe my arguments were based on natural law and the way things work in the universe. No judgment – just facts.

[Agent40]

The reason gays have so many problems with drugs, depression, and suicide isn't that they're gay.  It's that society treats gays like garbage.

I'm not sure I would state this so unequivocally, but it is certainly a worthwhile question.  Do gay people have more trouble with drugs, depression, violence et al[1] simply because they're gay or are there other societal pressures that cause these issues?

Thank you. Yes, it certainly is a worthwhile question.

And most anti-homosexuals I've heard from take the same attitude that Agent40 does, that homosexuality in itself isn't the problem, it's the homosexual acts.  If that's the case, do non practicing homosexuals fare any better with regard to alcohol and depression?  In other words, is there something within the homosexual mind that causes these issues or do they only arise after engaging in homosexual activities?

Excellent question. Although, it doesn’t necessarily mean the problems that gay people have are a result of engaging in homosexual activities. For example if there is any truth to the premise that a reason a gay person might be gay is because of they were abused as a child, even if that gay person never went on to engage in homosexual acts, they may go on to have problems in life with drugs/alcohol and depression simply as yet one more manifestation of their childhood abuse. As you can see, their same-sex attraction just may be another symptom of something that somewhere got messed up with them. 

In my very uneducated opinion, I can't see how having homosexual sex magically activates the depression, drugs and domestic violence lobe in the brain.

As I just stated, I agree. Although, one could also argue (as research shows) that living a homosexual lifestyle means more often than not multiple partners, fewer long term relationships, childless relationships, etc. and therefore one could say in fact it is this homosexual lifestyle that may lead to unfulfilling lives and a lack of peace in the individuals that of course may manifest itself via drug abuse and suicide. 

I do think more study into the causes of homosexual drug abuse and what not would be a good idea.

Agree. Too bad to argue such one is simply declared a homophobic and their arguments are swept under the rug.

By the way Agent40, this is a discussion forum not a "drop a load on the page and leave" forum.  If you didn't want to discuss your ideas in this thread, you shouldn't post them.  I'm not about to wade through a 30 page thread to discuss something that you already posted here.  That's bulls**t that you would expect otherwise.  If you just want to air your opinions, start a blog.

Point taken. I’m trying to respond, but can’t make any promises. School starts back up this week and my schedule is full.

[Agent40]

the more religious, the more illogical.

and the more bigoted!

Always cracks me up when people can’t see their own irony. You wouldn’t be bigoted toward people of religion would you? LOL!!!

Actually I'm NOT!  I can firmly state this since I'm very happily married to a very faithful christian man.  Religion is always an interesting subject around here.  IF I hold any bigotry it would be toward ignorance and the propagation of such.

Wow! So you admit you married an illogical bigot. How illogical of you?

[Agent40]

Wow take a look at these immoral lower-life forms!

I was waiting for someone to bring up this attempted argument. First, natural law has nothing to do with what is found in nature. Don’t worry, that’s a common mistake.

Did you know one can also find in nature animals that eat their own young! Does this mean it would be ok if we did?


Second, if I’m not mistaken, we are different in a great many ways than animals. But you do win the predictability prize.

[pianodwarf]

I’m not advocating this harsh approach you present, but would it be twisted and sick to inform a pedophile even if he can’t help his feelings, he should not act on them?

There's more than a small difference between pedophilia and acts performed between two consenting adults in private.

They have to live in constant fear that they're going to be assaulted at any time simply because of who they are.

They do? The majority of rape victims are women. Does this mean women must go thru life in constant fear that they will be assaulted at any time simply because of who they are? Nice try.

Err, yes, they do.  The number of men who think it's OK to rape women is quite small.  The number of men who thinks it's OK to "beat up faggots" is significantly larger.

What kind of discrimination are we talking about? I can’t think of a single thing a homosexual is not able to do that a heterosexual is.

Yeah?  How about marrying the one they love?  Or how about the fact that the Fair Housing Act doesn't protect gays?

The reason gays have so many problems with drugs, depression, and suicide isn't that they're gay.  It's that society treats gays like garbage.

I think I am going to need a little evidence for that claim.

I've read research in the field of psychology that supports it, but I'm not inclined to look it up because it would be time-consuming and I need to study for a test tomorrow.  You can look it up yourself if you like, but even if you prefer not to, a little common sense should be all you need, sheesh.  If tens of millions of people believed that you were an inherently sick and evil person and had no compunction about telling you so, that's more than enough to drive someone to drink (and other self-destructive behaviors).

[Emily]

Fact sheet on homosexuality and mental health

massresistance.org/docs/gen/09b/.../chapters/Chapter-14_smaller.pdf

This is coming up page not found. Can you try linking it again...

[velkyn]

Hmm,

“Dr. Dailey received his Bachelors degree in Bible and Theology from Moody Bible Institute, his M.A. in Theological Studies at Wheaton College, and his Ph.D. in Religion from Marquette University.”  He also thinks that the end times are a-comin’

There are also indications that Dailey’s paper isn’t all that Agent 40 would wish it was: http://holybulliesandheadlessmonsters.blogspot.com/2008_03_30_archive.html  We see the usual tactics of misquoting, using old outdated information, etc.  No surprise there.  

First, I am not anti-homosexual. I am anti-homosexual acts. Just like I am anti-pre-marital sex acts, anti-adulterous sex acts, anti-pedophilia sex acts, anti-beastiality sex acts, etc. These things are all violations of the moral order. It is beneath the dignity of man to engage is such behavior.

Oh, and Agent 40 has spoken, because she and only she knows what God really wants.  Hilarious to see her justify her predjudices as natural, moral and right and what God wants.  Every theist does this.  She seems to think if she says “natural law” no one knows it really means God.

This statement merely proves you don’t really understand natural law.

 As for no “gay gene” found, well, first, there doesn’t have to be one “gene” to explain anything, it could be a whole raft of them that work in concert.  Second, they are doing a big research project right now on it: http://www.gaybros.com/  Indeed, what if you are just speaking too soon, Agent 40?  Where is the “hetero gene”?  If it’s not genetic, it isnt’ real?  

Let’s see, my position is based on logic, reason and facts.

 Nope, it’s all lies.  Again.


EDIT: oh and for information on how stigma makes gays more likely to commit suicide: http://www.faqs.org/abstracts/Health/Depression-and-suicide-in-gay-and-lesbian-adolescents-a-proactive-clinical-approach-to-a-population-.html

http://books.google.com/books?id=VA2roY9wVq0C&pg=PA130&lpg=PA130&dq=gay+depression+suicide&source=bl&ots=WRnKp_kqTT&sig=gOuHDlbTfj9_JmGbgnYBL9tJf4g&hl=en&ei=2c-SSp2ZBJLRlAfH87iyDA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7#v=onepage&q=gay%20depression%20suicide&f=false

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=98782569

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/12/29/national/main4689585.shtml

[screwtape]

nice work, V.

[subtleinspiration]

Agent40, is it a sin for animals in the wild to perform homosexual acts? Why or why not?

[pianodwarf]

Velkyn: thank you for that.  As I said, if I'd had the time, I'd have done it myself, but I have to keep my board activity to a relative minimum today... big test tomorrow.

I owe you one. 

[velkyn]

no problem and thanks, guys.  Agent 40 is an easy amusement for me, when it takes just a few minutes on google to shoot down all of her nonsense.

[tperl]

To me, this whole ridiculous discussion between Agent40 and everyone else boils down to this:

- Agent40 sees homosexual acts as "not good" (and forget about qualifying this any further - it's irrelevant)

- Everyone else is simply stating in one way or another that it doesn't matter whether we see such as acts as "good" or "not good" - they are simply "none of our business"

It's apples and oranges.

This whole debate is simply devolving into the bottomless pit (which is actually the only thing agent40 said that I actually agree with).

[Seppuku]

but would it be twisted and sick to inform a pedophile even if he can’t help his feelings, he should not act on them?

I've already addressed why homosexuality and paedophelia are 2 different issues.

My position is based on logic, facts, science, right reason, and observation of life and the way things work. Your position is illogical. It’s emotional and not based on facts.

Emotional? If yours was based on science and facts, you might note the challenge of evolution against natural law too (like there is no 'natural moral order' because animals had developed evolutionary for survival needs. The logic for my argument is very simple: a person needs to consend (and to be able to consend) to an act and morality is based on how much it helps people or how little it hurts people. Humans are a social species and thus it is more beneficial as a species to be able to work in a society together than to work against each other, and in an advanced society, we have set laws to try and enforce a standard for behaviour in which is perceived to benefit a human society - whilst homosexual sex doesn't provide any natural benefits to a human society, it brings no more harm that those who abstain from reproduction...or abstain from sex entirely. All that is immoral is that which brings harm. If it doesn't actually hurt anybody, then what harm is it doing to an individual or society. Biologically, all homosexual sex is, is the insertion of a penis into a male anus repeatedly to induce sexual pleasure, until ejaculation or in terms of being a lesbian, the coming together of genitalia or the use of fingers to induce sexual pleasures. Either way it's inducing sexual pleasure between those of the same gender, without the purpose of reproduction. Disease may occur as it would with heterosexual sex. So there's nothing more and nothing less.

Is a student that consents to have a sexual relationship with their teacher harmed?

How old is the student. I believe I went over the issue of age. Some people aren't old enough to consend to sex and for the following reasons: hormones - puberty can be a factor in that and cause people to have emotions and act in ways they may come to regret. If the teacher has sex with the student knowing he/she is underaged, then it may be comparable as a form of rape, child below the age of puberty are still to young and too immature to be able to make the decision for themselves, anybody asking for their consent would be taking advantage of their age, which would also be comparable to rape.

Also, sex with a drunk girl whilst having your head on straight may also be considered rape, because she's not in the state of mind to consend to it, no matter her age.

Is a man that is abusive to his wife harmed if she cheats on him with another man?

That's a difficult situation, because cheating on him may be the ticket to helping her get out of the abusive relationship, after all not everybody is in a position where they can get help for themselves. It could be argued that if you harm somebody, then they're not going to care if they harm you. The cheating in a wife-beater situations may be the lesser of two evils.

Is anyone harmed if a person has sex with their dog?

How can a dog fairly give its consent?

If a person eats a bunch of food and then vomits it up because they want the pleasure of eating, but not the consequences of the calories is that wrong?

That is an over-simplification of bulimia. Bulimia is a psychological condition where a person feels pressured - even when they're not - to stay thin, the eating disorder maybe that they unable to stop themselves from eating because a of psychological drive and thereby induce vomitting because either they're ashamed by their over-eating or again, the pressure to stay thin. The psychological issue can have be for a number of reasons. Also, it is still an unhealthy way of doing things, and if these conditions aren't dealt with it can lead a person to harm. Perhaps the least of the harms is the fact bile vomit ruins your teeth. A psychological disorder is considered one, when their is a problem in a person's head, and not because the issue is socially abnormal, because we'd be going back to the 19th century if that was the case.

But it's not 'immoral' that this happens, but an issue whereby somebody must be helped.

When a person tries to change what the body is suppose to be used for – we would say that is disordered – not the proper order of things. It’s a violation of nature and therefore, we all inherently know it to be wrong. Sorry, but to argue that no one is harmed in a homosexual relationship is most certainly up for debate.

You, however, have not argued a case for 'how' homosexuality is harmful, but only provided examples you liken homosexuality to. As for our bodies and disorder, you speak as though there is a purpose in everything in the world, purpose only exists where you give it purpose. Whilst I see that's the point of natural law, everything is used for a purpose - like Aristotle said a 'good' axe is an axe that is capable of chopping up wood, the difference between nature and an axe is that an axe isn't natural - the wood of the tree has been 'disordered' to make the handle and the iron ore has been disordered to make the head and has been designed by the hands of a man. Nature hasn't be designed and the materials used for the axe have disordered the way in which thing may naturally be done. By making an axe, surely man is making the tree do something it wasn't 'intended' for. Likewise, you're using a computer, made of several natural components that have been disordered so that a computer may function. It's all fair and well saying that 'not using our body what it's supposed to be for' is immoral, surely using 'wood' what it's supposed to be for is just as immoral. Because of natural law too, should we consider humanity's natural traits?

The notion of natural law is problematic. Also, where does adultery and marriage come into natural law? These are things man-laws, not natural laws.

Did I cite the Bible? Did I say God is judging homosexuals? I believe my arguments were based on natural law and the way things work in the universe.

No you didn't, you didn't mention anything about God. A couple of people mentioned you were a Christians and you hold a belief with natural law, though you never stated whose philosophies you followed, so I tried adding two and two together, so I made my statements in case you followed some of the Christian versions of natural law, for example Thomas Aquinas and the Catholic Church and if I remember correctly, he said to apply the bible after natural law. Essentially what he did was twist Aristotle's words into the religion. But in case I was mistaken, I added this line, which apparently went amiss:

or at least pressumably that's what you believe, unfortunately Christians aren't always consistent with each other's beliefs.

What kind of discrimination are we talking about? I can’t think of a single thing a homosexual is not able to do that a heterosexual is.

Then obviously it's not discrimination from law. Homosexuals still face a lot of persecution, particularly from the Christian community, heck the film this thread was discussing was documenting a case where religious persecution lead somebody to suicide and it really happened. People still fear 'coming out of the closet' because their well-being may be in danger or there may be a lot of emotional abuse. In the work place and at school people can still be abusive towards homosexuals. A gay kid at the school I went to 6th form at was bullied for being a homosexual, and I'm only talking about just over 2 years ago. The law may be accepting of them, but it doesn't mean society as a whole doesn't discriminate.

[singlecrochet]

The typical responses I expected. Since you have no way to prove you are right and I am wrong regarding homosexual acts, you resort to personal attacks – shocker!

I'm curious.  WHY exactly does someone have to prove that homosexuality is 'right'?  How does one prove heterosexuality is 'right'?  Is heterosexuality 'right' because it sometimes produces children?  Um, we are currently nearing a serious overpopulation problem on this planet.  Gee,  maybe heterosexuality should  now be banned to curb that problem.  *GASP* maybe IT'S wrong!

No, buddy, it's on you to prove homosexuality is wrong.  Good luck with that.  No matter how you slice it, you'll only have your opinion to fall back on.  To that you are perfectly entitled.  And if you still feel homosexuality is wrong then I have one piece of advice for you:  Don't practice it.  There, problem solved.

In the meantime, don't tell anyone else who they can and cannot love.  It's none of your business.

[monkeymind]

Red:

Obviously that article is biased, there's no link to the research of animal drug abuse and animal depression.

OK, but there is a link to research of animal prostitution:
http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2008/07/monkeys-practic/#previouspost

[monkeymind]

Wow take a look at these immoral lower-life forms!

I was waiting for someone to bring up this attempted argument. First, natural law has nothing to do with what is found in nature. Don’t worry, that’s a common mistake.

OK, then without a real long sermon on the doctrine of the fall. Are animals fallen or not?
If God is punishing animals for man's action(s)...you know the whole groaning of creation...awaiting redemption thing...isn't this just another example of how the innocent (animals) suffer at the hands of biblegod?

[Red McWilliams]

Excellent question. Although, it doesn’t necessarily mean the problems that gay people have are a result of engaging in homosexual activities. For example if there is any truth to the premise that a reason a gay person might be gay is because of they were abused as a child, even if that gay person never went on to engage in homosexual acts, they may go on to have problems in life with drugs/alcohol and depression simply as yet one more manifestation of their childhood abuse. As you can see, their same-sex attraction just may be another symptom of something that somewhere got messed up with them. 

There are plenty of gay people who had very average childhoods.  While it's possible that abuse of some sort as a child causes things like homosexuality, depression and drug abuse later in life, it's most certainly not the only cause and right now it's irresponsible to try and make a causal link between homosexuality and those other behaviors.

The problem is too complex.  For all we know, every gay person that had a decent childhood has no problems with drugs or depression and it's only the people who were abused that skew the numbers.  If that is the case you could no longer make the argument that homosexuality is wrong, immoral or unnatural (and you shouldn't be making it now).

As I just stated, I agree. Although, one could also argue (as research shows) that living a homosexual lifestyle means more often than not multiple partners, fewer long term relationships, childless relationships, etc. and therefore one could say in fact it is this homosexual lifestyle that may lead to unfulfilling lives and a lack of peace in the individuals that of course may manifest itself via drug abuse and suicide. 

There are lots of heterosexual people that have multiple partners, fewer long term relationships and no children.  There are also lots of heterosexual people that lead unfulfilling lives (married or not).  There are also lots of heterosexual people that abuse drugs and commit suicide. 

See?  The question is too complicated to boil down to one specific issue, like leading a homosexual lifestyle.  Correlation doesn't equal causation, especially in a society that still exhibits a healthy amount of anti gay sentiment.

Point taken. I’m trying to respond, but can’t make any promises. School starts back up this week and my schedule is full.

Fair enough.

[Agent40]

I’m not advocating this harsh approach you present, but would it be twisted and sick to inform a pedophile even if he can’t help his feelings, he should not act on them?

There's more than a small difference between pedophilia and acts performed between two consenting adults in private.

Of course. But don’t use the “if a person is born that way – it must be good” argument then to make your case for why there is nothing wrong with homosexual acts. Obviously, born a certain way cannot be used as an excuse – only an explanation. The continued argument is “you have to allow a homosexual to love the way that is natural to him” Along those lines, you must have to allow the pedophile to love the way that is natural to him.

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They have to live in constant fear that they're going to be assaulted at any time simply because of who they are.

They do? The majority of rape victims are women. Does this mean women must go thru life in constant fear that they will be assaulted at any time simply because of who they are? Nice try.

Err, yes, they do.  The number of men who think it's OK to rape women is quite small.  The number of men who thinks it's OK to "beat up faggots" is significantly larger.

Do you have some kind of research indicating this? Or are you making some prejudiced comment that religious people think it’s ok to beat up a homosexual.  I know a great many religious people and have yet to hear anyone say any such thing. I also know the number of women raped each year is much higher than the number of homosexuals who are beaten up. Your comments are ridiculous.

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What kind of discrimination are we talking about? I can’t think of a single thing a homosexual is not able to do that a heterosexual is.

Yeah?  How about marrying the one they love?  Or how about the fact that the Fair Housing Act doesn't protect gays?

This is a topic for another debate, but all human beings are allowed the same rights under the law – to marry a person of the opposite sex.

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The reason gays have so many problems with drugs, depression, and suicide isn't that they're gay.  It's that society treats gays like garbage.

I think I am going to need a little evidence for that claim.

I've read research in the field of psychology that supports it, but I'm not inclined to look it up because it would be time-consuming and I need to study for a test tomorrow.  You can look it up yourself if you like, but even if you prefer not to, a little common sense should be all you need, sheesh.  If tens of millions of people believed that you were an inherently sick and evil person and had no compunction about telling you so, that's more than enough to drive someone to drink (and other self-destructive behaviors).

Common sense? You mean like the common sense that the body was designed for the penus of the male to enter the vagina of the woman and bring about new life? You mean common sense like putting a body part into another body part for which it is not designed might cause problems? You mean common sense like engaging in pre-marital sex is not in the individual or society’s best interest? You mean like those common sense things? Sheesh!