Poll

What is your religious position?

gnostic atheist - I know for certain that there are no gods.
156 (16.4%)
gnostic monotheist - I know for certain that only one specific god exists.
92 (9.7%)
gnostic polytheist - I know for certain that there is more than one god.
4 (0.4%)
gnostic pantheist - I know for certain that that everything is god.
12 (1.3%)
gnostic deist - I know for certain that there is a god that started the universe but does not actively meddle with it or us.
6 (0.6%)
agnostic atheist - I do not know for certain, but I think there are no gods.
272 (28.6%)
agnostic monotheist - I do not know for certain, but I think only one specific god exists.
20 (2.1%)
agnostic polytheist - I do not know for certain, but I think there is more than one god.
4 (0.4%)
agnostic pantheist - I do not know for certain, but I think that everything is god.
24 (2.5%)
agnostic deist - I do not know for certain, but I think there is a god that started the universe but does not actively meddle with it or us.
36 (3.8%)
ignostic atheist - While the concepts of god(s) are meaningless, it is likely that there are no gods.
86 (9%)
ignostic monotheist - While the concepts of god(s) are meaningless, it is likely that only one specific god exists.
2 (0.2%)
ignostic polytheist - While the concepts of god(s) are meaningless, it is likely that there is more than one god.
1 (0.1%)
ignostic pantheist - While the concepts of god(s) are meaningless, it is likely that that everything is god.
10 (1.1%)
ignostic deist - While the concepts of god(s) are meaningless, it is likely that there is a god that started the universe but does not actively meddle with it or us.
7 (0.7%)
apnostic atheist - I don't care if there are any gods, but I guess there are no gods.
36 (3.8%)
apnostic monotheist - I don't care if there are any gods, but I guess only one specific god exists.
1 (0.1%)
apnostic polytheist - I don't care if there are any gods, but I guess there is more than one god.
0 (0%)
apnostic pantheist - I don't care if there are any gods, but I guess that everything is god.
7 (0.7%)
apnostic deist - I don't care if there are any gods, but I guess there is a god that started the universe but does not actively meddle with it or us.
7 (0.7%)
Any type of henotheist - There (may be/is only) more than one god, but I think of only one specific god.
6 (0.6%)
I am a god!  [checks self in mirror and grins]
82 (8.6%)
Missionary.
30 (3.2%)
So! Many! Choices! (Karma Sutra)
50 (5.3%)

Total Members Voted: 615

Author Topic: What is your religious position?  (Read 62019 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline xphobe

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 5364
  • Darwins +12/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • the truth is out there
Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
« Reply #87 on: December 18, 2008, 09:35:47 PM »
I pretty much agree with everything you said, especially

Certainly, if there were a being who was not only supernatural, but omnipotent, it would be able to find a way to prove its existence beyond any doubt.  How can I make such an assertion? Simply by the definition of omnipotence.  To an omnipotent being, nothing is impossible.


which is why I said this
Quote
I am willing to consider the possibility that if an omnipotent god wanted me to know about it, it could produce such knowledge in me - somehow bypassing the whole proof thing.

Maybe a subset of the theists who claim to know actually do know.  Maybe the world is divided between those who know and those who don't.  Not that it makes any difference functionally...
I stopped believing for a little while this morning. Journey is gonna be so pissed when they find out...

Offline realdemocracy

  • Undergraduate
  • ***
  • Posts: 167
  • Darwins +1/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
« Reply #88 on: December 18, 2008, 11:56:50 PM »
Maybe a subset of the theists who claim to know actually do know.  Maybe the world is divided between those who know and those who don't.  Not that it makes any difference functionally...
This goes back to GII proof 17 (Leprechauns). If "God" is hiding its existence from most of us, ostensibly to protect our free will (to be able to exhibit our faith, and thereby win salvation from the "sin" we did not commit, but for which we are nevertheless doomed to suffer, if we fail to drop to our proverbial knees...), but reveals itself beyond any doubt to some others (e.g. Paul), then apparently their free will has been compromised.  Granted, if there was any chance that the Biblical God actually existed, then this contradiction would fit right in there with all the others.  This particular contradiction does not rise to the level of "proof," but it contributes to the overall body of evidence.

Offline Buster Fixxitt

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 879
  • Darwins +1/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • Full-blown Antitheist.
Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
« Reply #89 on: December 19, 2008, 02:40:15 AM »
I don't even think your pi example could provide that distinction.  Ostensibly, if it were possible to change pi within the scope of the natural universe, then a Q-like character might be just as capable as a supernatural deity of accomplishing that.

I think I've thought this through enough to understand RD's point, that Q is a creation of the natural universe and therefor subject to its laws, therefor if Q can do it, it's not an act that is necessarily 'outside' of natural law.  Did I get that right?

I just want to mention one of my favourite Q moments. Q is banished from the Q continuum and made human. The enterprise has to try to stop a moon from crashing into its planet. Q's solution is simple. "Just change the gravitational constant of the universe and it'll stop crashing."  Geordi:"That's a great idea, now how do we do that?"  "What do you mean 'how', you just do it!"

And we see the difference between omnipotent and omniscient. Or rather Near-omnipotence and Near-omniscience.
"When I was a child my mom put a picture up in my room of a chihuahua with big scary eyes, and I begged her to take it down. She said she couldn't, or the devil-clown under my bed would kill her." - Bug-Eyed Earl, Red Meat.

Offline xTigerx

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1910
  • Darwins +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • WWFSMD?
Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
« Reply #90 on: December 19, 2008, 11:32:32 AM »
This poll is missing one position.

I don't there there are gods.

But I don't think there are no gods either.
God, if you're real, show yourself.  ...still waiting...
...

...




...

Offline Hermes

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 9988
  • Darwins +2/-0
  • 1600 years of oppression ends; Zeus is worshiped.
Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
« Reply #91 on: December 19, 2008, 11:54:02 AM »
Impossible.  There's a spot for a mouse on that list, surely you can pick one.
Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons. --Michael Shermer

The history of religion is a long attempt to reconcile old custom with new reason, to find a sound theory for an absurd practice.  --Sir James George Frazer

Offline realdemocracy

  • Undergraduate
  • ***
  • Posts: 167
  • Darwins +1/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
« Reply #92 on: December 19, 2008, 03:10:04 PM »
I think I've thought this through enough to understand RD's point, that Q is a creation of the natural universe and therefor subject to its laws, therefor if Q can do it, it's not an act that is necessarily 'outside' of natural law.  Did I get that right?

I just want to mention one of my favourite Q moments. Q is banished from the Q continuum and made human. The enterprise has to try to stop a moon from crashing into its planet. Q's solution is simple. "Just change the gravitational constant of the universe and it'll stop crashing."  Geordi:"That's a great idea, now how do we do that?"  "What do you mean 'how', you just do it!"

And we see the difference between omnipotent and omniscient. Or rather Near-omnipotence and Near-omniscience.
Isn't Q supposed to be fully omnipotent?  I either didn't see enough or pay close enough attention to know.  Perhaps that is just an assumption I made, or something a friend told me (who watched it much more than I did). But anyway, yes, that is a nice example of the difference.

As for the point about proving the difference between a supernatural being and an ultra-powerful, or even omnipotent, yet "natural" one, I'm not sure.  We are getting into some pretty shaky theoretical area here.  If Q is omnipotent (but not omniscient, of course), could we say he is supernatural, since obviously an omnipotent being can affect anything, which would then include realms beyond the natural, if there are in fact such realms...wouldn't it?  Of course, whether or not he could prove to us that he met that criterion is a separate issue...or rather, takes us back to the previous one.

I'm getting kinda lost here.  Discussing imaginary beings is not as much fun as it was when I was a teenager.

Offline Buster Fixxitt

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 879
  • Darwins +1/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • Full-blown Antitheist.
Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
« Reply #93 on: December 19, 2008, 03:47:30 PM »
I'm getting kinda lost here.  Discussing imaginary beings is not as much fun as it was when I was a teenager.

Yeah, I'm a little fuzzy on the Q.  They claim omnipotence, yet the one we meet (they are all named Q) seems to get bested fairly often.  Mind you, he always seems to set his own rules which he then plays within...




I don't know if this is an option that should be added to the poll or not, but I'll throw it out there anyways.

My cousin is D.I.D.  Dissociative Identity Disorder which they used to call Multiple Personality Disorder.  She is devoutly Christian (well some of her 'alters' are, others are agnostic, no atheists though).  The one thing that she will state as an absolute fact is that God is a 'Multi'.  She sees no discrepancy between Jesus, God, Holy Spirit because God only makes sense to her as a multi. 

Just thought I'd share that with y'all.  If you're familiar with any multis, then it'll likely make more sense.  She's one of the rare ones in that MOST of the alters are co-conscious and work within 'the system'.  Most multis are not aware of their 'alters'.

"When I was a child my mom put a picture up in my room of a chihuahua with big scary eyes, and I begged her to take it down. She said she couldn't, or the devil-clown under my bed would kill her." - Bug-Eyed Earl, Red Meat.

Offline Hermes

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 9988
  • Darwins +2/-0
  • 1600 years of oppression ends; Zeus is worshiped.
Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
« Reply #94 on: December 19, 2008, 04:02:05 PM »
Self projection as god rides again!   ;D
Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons. --Michael Shermer

The history of religion is a long attempt to reconcile old custom with new reason, to find a sound theory for an absurd practice.  --Sir James George Frazer

Offline xphobe

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 5364
  • Darwins +12/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • the truth is out there
Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
« Reply #95 on: December 19, 2008, 05:03:39 PM »
This would be our first example of "Selves Projection as God" :)

Oho!  Where do multis fit in your matrix, Hermes?
I stopped believing for a little while this morning. Journey is gonna be so pissed when they find out...

Offline Buster Fixxitt

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 879
  • Darwins +1/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • Full-blown Antitheist.
Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
« Reply #96 on: December 19, 2008, 05:17:39 PM »
This would be our first example of "Selves Projection as God" :)

Oho!  Where do multis fit in your matrix, Hermes?

 :D Nice!

By the way, is there a thread somewhere that lists the argot?  Somewhere I can look up what SPAG means if I'm not familiar with the term?
"When I was a child my mom put a picture up in my room of a chihuahua with big scary eyes, and I begged her to take it down. She said she couldn't, or the devil-clown under my bed would kill her." - Bug-Eyed Earl, Red Meat.

Offline xTigerx

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1910
  • Darwins +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • WWFSMD?
Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
« Reply #97 on: December 19, 2008, 05:30:09 PM »
Impossible.  There's a spot for a mouse on that list, surely you can pick one.

-.-

Ok I'll choose both agnostic atheist and agnostic deist... that should cancel them out. :P
God, if you're real, show yourself.  ...still waiting...
...

...




...

Offline Hermes

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 9988
  • Darwins +2/-0
  • 1600 years of oppression ends; Zeus is worshiped.
Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
« Reply #98 on: December 19, 2008, 05:59:06 PM »
Fine with me...
Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons. --Michael Shermer

The history of religion is a long attempt to reconcile old custom with new reason, to find a sound theory for an absurd practice.  --Sir James George Frazer

Offline xphobe

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 5364
  • Darwins +12/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • the truth is out there
Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
« Reply #99 on: December 19, 2008, 11:08:45 PM »
This would be our first example of "Selves Projection as God" :)

Oho!  Where do multis fit in your matrix, Hermes?

 :D Nice!

By the way, is there a thread somewhere that lists the argot?  Somewhere I can look up what SPAG means if I'm not familiar with the term?

It's a phrase DTE coined, on the old forum.
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=9f10c1246b3990f08398020d2a47694f&topic=5593.msg95615#msg95615

Basically, everyone creates his god in his own image.
I stopped believing for a little while this morning. Journey is gonna be so pissed when they find out...

Offline Buster Fixxitt

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 879
  • Darwins +1/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • Full-blown Antitheist.
Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
« Reply #100 on: December 20, 2008, 01:08:44 AM »
This would be our first example of "Selves Projection as God" :)

Oho!  Where do multis fit in your matrix, Hermes?

 :D Nice!

By the way, is there a thread somewhere that lists the argot?  Somewhere I can look up what SPAG means if I'm not familiar with the term?

It's a phrase DTE coined, on the old forum.
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=9f10c1246b3990f08398020d2a47694f&topic=5593.msg95615#msg95615

Basically, everyone creates his god in his own image.


Thanks XPhobe.  What I was really asking was if there was a list of all the lingo people throw around on this forum. SPAG, Poe, PoE, BM, etc.?  I've sort of started a thread similar, saying we need standardized definitions, but it's not quite the same.
"When I was a child my mom put a picture up in my room of a chihuahua with big scary eyes, and I begged her to take it down. She said she couldn't, or the devil-clown under my bed would kill her." - Bug-Eyed Earl, Red Meat.

Offline truehyuga

  • Undergraduate
  • ***
  • Posts: 208
  • Darwins +0/-0
  • Back. For now.
Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
« Reply #101 on: December 23, 2008, 02:49:36 PM »
I understand the gnostic atheist vote(s).  Why mince words?

That said, I'm a gnostic atheist IRT specific deity claims; ex: omnimax deities.  Otherwise, I'm an agnostic atheist; 'show me or blow if you don't have facts'.
Precisely why I chose both.
What you allow will always increase; good or bad.

Offline RNS

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 516
  • Darwins +12/-1
  • Diplomat
Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
« Reply #102 on: December 27, 2008, 12:22:01 AM »
Impossible.  There's a spot for a mouse on that list, surely you can pick one.

What about those who haven't committed themselves to believing that god does or doesn't exist?
I think there could be a god, but i don't actively believe there is one. Nor do i actively disbelieve in the existence of a god.
love and truth and love of truth

Offline Hermes

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 9988
  • Darwins +2/-0
  • 1600 years of oppression ends; Zeus is worshiped.
Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
« Reply #103 on: December 27, 2008, 12:51:42 AM »
What about those who haven't committed themselves to believing that god does or doesn't exist?

Quote
The poll options are roughly divided into two parts;

"Knowledge claim" + "Statement of belief"


So, "Agnostic Polytheist" breaks into;

Knowledge claim: I do not know for certain.
Statement of belief: I think that there is more than one god.

Commitment isn't required.  For example, a gnostic monotheist -- someone who knows for certain there is a specific deity -- could be committed to that deity, committed against that deity, or apathetic toward it entirely.  To that gnostic monotheist, the deity could be considered unworthy of commitment, or could be seen as unwanting of commitment

If you are apathetic about knowledge claims, you would be some kind of apnostic yet may lean toward say ... deism; apnostic deist; "I don't care if there are any gods, but I guess there is a god that started the universe but does not actively meddle with it or us."

If you never considered and never heard of deity claims, you'd be an ignostic atheist; claims about deities mean nothing to you and without knowing about those claims you don't believe anything about deities.

Uncommitted could mean that on Tuesday you believe there are no gods, and Thursday you believe there may be many gods, you would change from some kind of atheist to some kind of polytheist.  If you are that unwilling to pick something, even if temporarily, don't vote ... though I have to ask why it is such a big deal to pick something that is currently correct.  People do change their minds as they learn more or reconsider past ideas.

I think there could be a god, but i don't actively believe there is one. Nor do i actively disbelieve in the existence of a god.

First pick a knowledge claim (Gnostic, Agnostic, Ignostic, or Apnostic) and then the number of gods you believe if any;

* If zero, you're an atheist of some sort.

* If one, you're either a monotheist (active deity) or a deist (uninvolved deity).

* If everything is a deity, you're a pantheist.

* If there are multiple gods, but not everything is a god, you're a polytheist.

* If you are a polytheist, but worship one god only you are a henotheist.
Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons. --Michael Shermer

The history of religion is a long attempt to reconcile old custom with new reason, to find a sound theory for an absurd practice.  --Sir James George Frazer

Offline RNS

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 516
  • Darwins +12/-1
  • Diplomat
Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
« Reply #104 on: December 27, 2008, 01:12:58 AM »
First pick a knowledge claim (Gnostic, Agnostic, Ignostic, or Apnostic) and then the number of gods you believe if any;

* If zero, you're an atheist of some sort.

* If one, you're either a monotheist (active deity) or a deist (uninvolved deity).

* If everything is a deity, you're a pantheist.

* If there are multiple gods, but not everything is a god, you're a polytheist.

* If you are a polytheist, but worship one god only you are a henotheist.

I'm agnostic, and I guess I'm an atheist because of my lack of belief in any gods. But, I don't disbelieve in god, i.e. in ure little explanation in the poll, "I think there are no gods"- that's not me. I don't think there aren't, i just don't happen to believe in one, in a similar way that a baby doesn't believe in god.
do you see what I'm trying to say?
« Last Edit: December 27, 2008, 01:18:52 AM by RNS »
love and truth and love of truth

Offline Hermes

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 9988
  • Darwins +2/-0
  • 1600 years of oppression ends; Zeus is worshiped.
Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
« Reply #105 on: December 27, 2008, 08:52:07 AM »
I'm agnostic, and I guess I'm an atheist because of my lack of belief in any gods. But, I don't disbelieve in god, i.e. in ure little explanation in the poll, "I think there are no gods"- that's not me. I don't think there aren't, i just don't happen to believe in one, in a similar way that a baby doesn't believe in god.
do you see what I'm trying to say?

Yes.  The issue?  It's not that easy to accommodate everyone.  That's why I've run this poll 3x and changed it each time.

That said, the belief statements can be read as a strong statement, or a weak one.  This poll isn't on strength, though.  For emphasis, the strength is handled by the knowledge claim not the belief statement.  So, a gnostic monotheist is a strong while an agnostic monotheist is a weak, yet the same two people are also gnostic/agnostic/ignostic/apnostic towards other deity claims.

Since I've run this poll 3x and have tweaked it along the way, if you have recommendations on how to re-write the belief side of the sentence so that it is similar for atheists/monotheists/polytheists/pantheists/deists and henotheists, yet works for ... gnostic/agnostic/ignostic/apnostic knowledge claims as well, I'll tweak it for the fourth run of the poll.

Important: I don't want to split a category (either knowledge or belief) if at all possible.  There are already 21 options, and I could have easily added another 30.  Also, keeping the sentence short so that it doesn't wrap much more is preferred.
Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons. --Michael Shermer

The history of religion is a long attempt to reconcile old custom with new reason, to find a sound theory for an absurd practice.  --Sir James George Frazer

Offline RNS

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 516
  • Darwins +12/-1
  • Diplomat
Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
« Reply #106 on: December 27, 2008, 01:36:36 PM »
I think there should be an option of just agnostic- I don't think we have enough information at the moment to know if there are or aren't any gods. There may or may not be any gods.

Something along those lines...I'm not so good at putting thoughts into words :S
love and truth and love of truth

Offline Hermes

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 9988
  • Darwins +2/-0
  • 1600 years of oppression ends; Zeus is worshiped.
Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
« Reply #107 on: December 27, 2008, 01:44:29 PM »
RNS, I've gone over that conversation many times.  The current arrangement is not ideal, but it seems to cover most categories without unfairly biasing specific categories.  The current one where a knowledge claim like agnosticism is matched up with a statement of belief clears up many more problems than it creates.

If you think of a way to re-word the current sentences or the structure of the options, let me know.  Otherwise, you can make your own poll.
Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons. --Michael Shermer

The history of religion is a long attempt to reconcile old custom with new reason, to find a sound theory for an absurd practice.  --Sir James George Frazer

Offline RNS

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 516
  • Darwins +12/-1
  • Diplomat
Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
« Reply #108 on: December 27, 2008, 01:48:18 PM »
yeah i know. sorry.
just thought that you could slip it in somewhere in your next pole.
didn't realise it doesn't work. sorry
love and truth and love of truth

Offline xphobe

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 5364
  • Darwins +12/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • the truth is out there
Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
« Reply #109 on: December 27, 2008, 01:49:14 PM »
Problem is, that's not what agnostic means.   We either need to redefine the word, or we need to come up with another word that means "not enough information at the moment".

T. H. Huxley defined the word to mean "not possible to know", which is stronger than "don't know at the moment".  I truly believe it is not possible to know whether gods exist.  That's why I call myself an agnostic atheist.

Ah well, the word is being redefined in popular usage, to mean exactly what you are saying.  Unfortunately "don't know" also covers a lot of people who are too intellectually lazy to think about it, or who are too wishy-washy to take a position.  Those people shouldn't be rewarded with a label :)

I stopped believing for a little while this morning. Journey is gonna be so pissed when they find out...

Offline Hermes

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 9988
  • Darwins +2/-0
  • 1600 years of oppression ends; Zeus is worshiped.
Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
« Reply #110 on: December 27, 2008, 01:50:47 PM »
Thanks for the suggestion.  I'm sincere in asking for suggestions on how to adapt it and make more people happy with the available options.  I'm currently stuck on making a better fit -- not that one can not be made by someone.
Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons. --Michael Shermer

The history of religion is a long attempt to reconcile old custom with new reason, to find a sound theory for an absurd practice.  --Sir James George Frazer

Offline xphobe

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 5364
  • Darwins +12/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • the truth is out there
Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
« Reply #111 on: December 27, 2008, 01:57:36 PM »
Your poll is actually a 2-dimensional matrix laid out linearly.  One axis is the type of god(s), and the other axis is the certainty of knowledge.  I wonder if there could be a third axis.

I guess someone who doesn't know and doesn't care could be an "ignostic" or an "apnostic", right?  Leaving "agnostic" for people like RNS.

Just remember, RNS, "agnostic" is only locating you along the certainty-of-knowledge axis.  It doesn't say anything about your position on the type-of-god axis.  For example, you could be an agnostic Christian (I know some).
I stopped believing for a little while this morning. Journey is gonna be so pissed when they find out...

Offline RNS

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 516
  • Darwins +12/-1
  • Diplomat
Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
« Reply #112 on: December 27, 2008, 02:53:13 PM »
Funny you should say that. I'm actually kind of Christian too. As in I go to church and stuff, and I believe in some of the Christian values and I can see how they are doing good in some communities. Just one small thing, I don't really believe in the God bit of it. I actually disbelieve in the Christian god.
love and truth and love of truth

Offline Hermes

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 9988
  • Darwins +2/-0
  • 1600 years of oppression ends; Zeus is worshiped.
Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
« Reply #113 on: December 27, 2008, 04:34:41 PM »
Xphobe, it's true that I'm not using Huxley's definition of agnostic.  Then again, I'm not using the Gnostic's (mystery religion) definition of gnostic either. 

Both gnostic (mystery) and agnostic (Huxley) were narrow definitions with unique histories that still left gaps that would have to be filled by more generic definitions.  The split I chose was like this;

Theist = Belief in a deity or deities.
A-theist = No belief in a deity or deities.

Gnostic = Knowledge.
A-gnostic = No knowledge.

This follows through the whole matrix, as there are multiple types of beliefs that spawn from theism, as well as types of knowledge claims.

Inaccurate?  Yes.  Not 500 entries long?  Also yes.  The preliminary list was originally around 30-40 entries before I pared it down.  That longer list did not split the gnostic (mystery) and agnostic (Huxley) from the gnostic (knowledge) and agnostic (no knowledge) categories.
Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons. --Michael Shermer

The history of religion is a long attempt to reconcile old custom with new reason, to find a sound theory for an absurd practice.  --Sir James George Frazer

Offline Hermes

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 9988
  • Darwins +2/-0
  • 1600 years of oppression ends; Zeus is worshiped.
Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
« Reply #114 on: December 27, 2008, 04:51:03 PM »
RNS, that would make you a 'cultural Christian'.  I can relate to that, as I was for a while a cultural Catholic.  Dan Dennett absolutely loves some parts of Christian culture, specifically the music.  Yet, from what you've said, from what I saw myself as, and from what Dan has said we three people are basically not-theists; atheists. 

This does not mean that we by necessity have any vigorous stance on this.  I do not actively 'disbelieve' in any deity.  I'm an atheist because I'm basing my belief on my knowledge, and I've yet to be provided positive support for any deity.  If that were to change, and I had knowledge that pointed to the likelihood that one or more deities were more probable than not, I'd accept that and give a nod toward some kind of theistic belief.

IRT the poll, if this cultural category were added as a third qualifier, that would double the list size or would be a stub (one entry) like the joke entries at the end of the list. 

It would be better to make another poll on this, but I haven't thought of it yet.
Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons. --Michael Shermer

The history of religion is a long attempt to reconcile old custom with new reason, to find a sound theory for an absurd practice.  --Sir James George Frazer

Offline alejo_radical

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 276
  • Darwins +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
« Reply #115 on: December 31, 2008, 12:15:28 PM »
I am the only pantheist :((( well, it's actually two of us!! :D Who's my bro yo? lol