Poll

What is your religious position?

gnostic atheist - I know for certain that there are no gods.
156 (16.4%)
gnostic monotheist - I know for certain that only one specific god exists.
92 (9.7%)
gnostic polytheist - I know for certain that there is more than one god.
4 (0.4%)
gnostic pantheist - I know for certain that that everything is god.
12 (1.3%)
gnostic deist - I know for certain that there is a god that started the universe but does not actively meddle with it or us.
6 (0.6%)
agnostic atheist - I do not know for certain, but I think there are no gods.
272 (28.6%)
agnostic monotheist - I do not know for certain, but I think only one specific god exists.
20 (2.1%)
agnostic polytheist - I do not know for certain, but I think there is more than one god.
4 (0.4%)
agnostic pantheist - I do not know for certain, but I think that everything is god.
24 (2.5%)
agnostic deist - I do not know for certain, but I think there is a god that started the universe but does not actively meddle with it or us.
36 (3.8%)
ignostic atheist - While the concepts of god(s) are meaningless, it is likely that there are no gods.
86 (9%)
ignostic monotheist - While the concepts of god(s) are meaningless, it is likely that only one specific god exists.
2 (0.2%)
ignostic polytheist - While the concepts of god(s) are meaningless, it is likely that there is more than one god.
1 (0.1%)
ignostic pantheist - While the concepts of god(s) are meaningless, it is likely that that everything is god.
10 (1.1%)
ignostic deist - While the concepts of god(s) are meaningless, it is likely that there is a god that started the universe but does not actively meddle with it or us.
7 (0.7%)
apnostic atheist - I don't care if there are any gods, but I guess there are no gods.
36 (3.8%)
apnostic monotheist - I don't care if there are any gods, but I guess only one specific god exists.
1 (0.1%)
apnostic polytheist - I don't care if there are any gods, but I guess there is more than one god.
0 (0%)
apnostic pantheist - I don't care if there are any gods, but I guess that everything is god.
7 (0.7%)
apnostic deist - I don't care if there are any gods, but I guess there is a god that started the universe but does not actively meddle with it or us.
7 (0.7%)
Any type of henotheist - There (may be/is only) more than one god, but I think of only one specific god.
6 (0.6%)
I am a god!  [checks self in mirror and grins]
82 (8.6%)
Missionary.
30 (3.2%)
So! Many! Choices! (Karma Sutra)
50 (5.3%)

Total Members Voted: 615

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Offline Hermes

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Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
« Reply #29 on: October 12, 2008, 04:08:39 PM »
*bump whoring*
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Offline cmotdibbler

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Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
« Reply #30 on: October 12, 2008, 05:55:01 PM »
I gotta go with agnostic atheist with this explanation.
I do not think there is a way of distinguishing a "god" from another powerful natural occurring "entity" (aliens, humans from the future, alternative dimensions weird stuff like that). However, if it were shown that a supernatural "god" exists then I would *not* bend my knee and worship even though I would acknowledge his/her/it existence.

I was intrigued by the "ignostic atheist" position (not caring if a god exists, but doesn't believe so) and wonder if "ignostic" refers to refusing to worship if proven wrong?

Offline Hermes

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Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
« Reply #31 on: October 12, 2008, 09:32:01 PM »
I was intrigued by the "ignostic atheist" position (not caring if a god exists, but doesn't believe so) and wonder if "ignostic" refers to refusing to worship if proven wrong?

II hadn't thought of that before.  I guess it could, but I don't see it as a necessity.

I would think that one of the ignostic theists would be more likely to actively refuse worshiping a deity, but like the ignostic atheist it's not necessary.
Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons. --Michael Shermer

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Offline cmotdibbler

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Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
« Reply #32 on: October 13, 2008, 06:09:15 AM »
I was intrigued by the "ignostic atheist" position (not caring if a god exists, but doesn't believe so) and wonder if "ignostic" refers to refusing to worship if proven wrong?

II hadn't thought of that before.  I guess it could, but I don't see it as a necessity.

I would think that one of the ignostic theists would be more likely to actively refuse worshiping a deity, but like the ignostic atheist it's not necessary.

Arrgggh... looking back at the poll, I confused Ignostic with Apnostic! I suppose they are a bit similar, but never heard of these terms before.

Offline Hermes

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Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
« Reply #33 on: October 13, 2008, 07:25:30 AM »
Ignostic and Apnostic are new terms ... though ignostic is popular enough to merit a Wikipedia entry and 18K hits on Google.  Apnostic, by contrast, shows up only a couple dozen times in Google and the top entries are threads on WWGHA.
Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons. --Michael Shermer

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Offline Sleeping Shadow

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Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
« Reply #34 on: October 13, 2008, 12:46:12 PM »
I chose Gnostic/Agnostic Monotheist.

Offline Azdgari

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Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
« Reply #35 on: October 13, 2008, 12:49:33 PM »
A formal contradiction.  Interesting.
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Offline Hermes

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Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
« Reply #36 on: October 13, 2008, 02:48:05 PM »
I chose Gnostic/Agnostic Monotheist.
A formal contradiction.  Interesting.

Hmmm...I was going to disagree, but the disagreement came from some kind of polytheist argument.  Ronoshie chose monotheist (ie: 1 deity). 

Knowing for a fact of the existence of one or more deities, yet not knowing for a fact the existence of one or more other deities is possible with polytheism.

Then again, trinitarian Christians have a 3-in-1 deity and they consider themselves monotheists.  Maybe YHWY and JC are given the nod for the Gnostic claim, and the HG is given the nod for the agnostic claim?  That or a variation of it is one of the only ways I can make sense of it!  The only other one that comes to mind is that the person is on the edge of flipping from one stance to another and has not fully committed to the 'new' stance.

Care to clarify Ronoshie?
Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons. --Michael Shermer

The history of religion is a long attempt to reconcile old custom with new reason, to find a sound theory for an absurd practice.  --Sir James George Frazer

Offline Hermes

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Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
« Reply #37 on: October 13, 2008, 02:52:57 PM »
Wait!  I take it back...there's a simpler possibility that is not a contradiction.

The Gnostic Monotheist part could be in respect to a single deity.

The Agnostic Monotheist part could be that the person is agnostic IRT other deities, and as such remains a monotheist based on the the claimed knowledge of the single deity that they are a Gnostic Monotheist about.

Anyone want to chime in?



[Note: This still leaves open the possibility that the deity claimed to be known as existing does not, and that other deities (1 to n) do exist but are just not known.]
Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons. --Michael Shermer

The history of religion is a long attempt to reconcile old custom with new reason, to find a sound theory for an absurd practice.  --Sir James George Frazer

Offline Sleeping Shadow

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Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
« Reply #38 on: October 14, 2008, 11:04:03 AM »
1) I know for sure that supernatural forces exist and is probably eternal.

2) I'm pretty convinced that the original supernatural force is the God of the Bible, if the supernatural forces are living.

Offline spider

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Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
« Reply #39 on: October 16, 2008, 08:58:23 PM »
But would you say your theism is certain or just "I think probably" or "I can't know for sure, but my belief is..."   ?

Do you think God is a fact that both has the ability to be known and is known by you?

Offline Hermes

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Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
« Reply #40 on: October 20, 2008, 06:46:51 PM »
Introducing the...

BumpMaster 4000!
Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons. --Michael Shermer

The history of religion is a long attempt to reconcile old custom with new reason, to find a sound theory for an absurd practice.  --Sir James George Frazer

Offline xphobe

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Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
« Reply #41 on: October 20, 2008, 10:22:18 PM »
Introducing the...

BumpMaster 4000!

Why does that sound like something Richard Simmons would shill on late-night TV?
I stopped believing for a little while this morning. Journey is gonna be so pissed when they find out...

Offline Sleeping Shadow

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Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
« Reply #42 on: October 21, 2008, 01:03:46 AM »
But would you say your theism is certain or just "I think probably" or "I can't know for sure, but my belief is..."   ?

Out of those two, more towards "I think probably". Even if the Bible isn't the written Word of the Eternal, atleast it has some wise sayings. And to me, it pretty much seems to have a good idea of general morality (like the last 6 Commandments). The main number one reason I believe in the Bible, to me, is next to undeniable.



Quote
Do you think God is a fact that both has the ability to be known and is known by you?

I suppose.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2008, 01:07:37 AM by Ronoshie »

Offline Goodkat

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Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
« Reply #43 on: October 21, 2008, 01:21:40 AM »
The main number one reason I believe in the Bible, to me, is next to undeniable.
What reason is that ?!

Offline Sleeping Shadow

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Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
« Reply #44 on: October 21, 2008, 10:49:56 PM »
The main number one reason I believe in the Bible, to me, is next to undeniable.
What reason is that ?!

Prophecy. The Bible has predicted things to come centuries before they happened. The latter end of those prophecies are in the beginning stages of being fulfilled today of those that hasn't already been fulfilled. And the incredible accuracy of them is next to impossible of being coicidence.

Offline Goodkat

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Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
« Reply #45 on: October 21, 2008, 10:56:40 PM »
The main number one reason I believe in the Bible, to me, is next to undeniable.
What reason is that ?!
Prophecy. The Bible has predicted things to come centuries before they happened. The latter end of those prophecies are in the beginning stages of being fulfilled today of those that hasn't already been fulfilled. And the incredible accuracy of them is next to impossible of being coicidence.
Daniel has been determined to have been written after its prophesies. Jerusalem was re established by Christians who purposely fulfilled that prophesy. Any other fulfilled prophesies?

Offline Sleeping Shadow

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Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
« Reply #46 on: October 21, 2008, 11:00:15 PM »
The main number one reason I believe in the Bible, to me, is next to undeniable.
What reason is that ?!
Prophecy. The Bible has predicted things to come centuries before they happened. The latter end of those prophecies are in the beginning stages of being fulfilled today of those that hasn't already been fulfilled. And the incredible accuracy of them is next to impossible of being coicidence.
Daniel has been determined to have been written after its prophesies. Jerusalem was re established by Christians who purposely fulfilled that prophesy. Any other fulfilled prophesies?

Got any proof it was written afterwards?

Offline Goodkat

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Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
« Reply #47 on: October 21, 2008, 11:06:56 PM »
The main number one reason I believe in the Bible, to me, is next to undeniable.
What reason is that ?!
Prophecy. The Bible has predicted things to come centuries before they happened. The latter end of those prophecies are in the beginning stages of being fulfilled today of those that hasn't already been fulfilled. And the incredible accuracy of them is next to impossible of being coicidence.
Daniel has been determined to have been written after its prophesies. Jerusalem was re established by Christians who purposely fulfilled that prophesy. Any other fulfilled prophesies?

Got any proof it was written afterwards?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Daniel#Dating_and_content

Offline Sleeping Shadow

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Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
« Reply #48 on: October 22, 2008, 06:50:33 PM »
The main number one reason I believe in the Bible, to me, is next to undeniable.
What reason is that ?!
Prophecy. The Bible has predicted things to come centuries before they happened. The latter end of those prophecies are in the beginning stages of being fulfilled today of those that hasn't already been fulfilled. And the incredible accuracy of them is next to impossible of being coicidence.
Daniel has been determined to have been written after its prophesies. Jerusalem was re established by Christians who purposely fulfilled that prophesy. Any other fulfilled prophesies?

Got any proof it was written afterwards?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Daniel#Dating_and_content

Most of that is pure speculation. There isn't any evidence that Daniel didn't live in the 6th Century BC. I would like to comment Daniel being placed in "the writings" division. The Old Testament canon, as organized by Ezra and the Great Assembly, did have three major divisions—the Law (Moses’s books), the Prophets and the Psalms, or writings. Jesus Christ confirmed this division (see Luke 24:44). Because Daniel is not included with the prophets in the divisions as we know them today, scholars reason that this means the book was written after Malachi. Yet this argument fails when you understand that books in "the writings" are from the far distant past. The book of Job is a perfect example.   

The truth is, Daniel should be included with the prophets. Here is why. Jesus Christ refers to Daniel as a prophet. He told the disciples, “When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)” (Matthew 24:15). In this same verse, it is implied that we are expected to read Daniel as a prophetic book. In addition, Josephus, a historian in the first century AD, places Daniel with the prophets. Josephus discusses the tripartite division of the 22 Old Testament scrolls in Contra Apionem 1:8. He mentions five scrolls for Moses, 13 scrolls for the prophets and only four for the writings. Although Josephus doesn’t specifically list the books for each section, it is safe to assume that the divisions of the books were changed some time between the first century and now. It is most likely that the Masoretes (scholars who lived in Tiberius) moved Daniel (and several other prophetic books) to the third division (“the writings”) in the sixth century AD when they were standardizing the text. Let’s agree that the placement or misplacement of Daniel in the Old Testament canon has no bearing whatsoever on the dating of the book.

I think the prophecies in Daniel is one of the strongest proofs among others of the authority of the Bible. Daniel was deeply affected by what he saw. In communication with the angel Gabriel, he tells us, “And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?” (Daniel 12:8 ). Notice Gabriel’s reply: “Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand” (verses 9-10). Amazing, isn’t it? Daniel desperately wanted to know what he had witnessed. Yet, not even God gave him the understanding. These verses show that Daniel had no historical frame of reference to understand what he saw. These verses alone shoot holes in the critics’ “after the fact” theories. 


Offline Azdgari

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Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
« Reply #49 on: October 22, 2008, 07:16:44 PM »
Quote
Most of that is pure speculation. There isn't any evidence that Daniel didn't live in the 6th Century BC. ...

I love how Ronoshie derides the Wiki article as pure speculation, then goes on to engage in pure speculation.  I wonder if he realized it as he was typing, or whether he was completely oblivious?
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Offline Sleeping Shadow

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Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
« Reply #50 on: October 22, 2008, 07:18:54 PM »
Quote
Most of that is pure speculation. There isn't any evidence that Daniel didn't live in the 6th Century BC. ...

I love how Ronoshie derides the Wiki article as pure speculation, then goes on to engage in pure speculation.  I wonder if he realized it as he was typing, or whether he was completely oblivious?


I didn't say there wasn't going to be any speculation in mine. But all the reasons people have against Daniel is speculation. The context of Daniel itself isn't speculation.

Offline Hermes

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Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
« Reply #51 on: October 28, 2008, 09:04:08 AM »
Book porn;

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Offline spider

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Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
« Reply #52 on: October 29, 2008, 08:57:09 PM »
Hey, I looked into the Theism article on Wikipedia, and there are all these other theisms there.

I'm going to list them because they are interesting.

# ditheism — that two gods exist and they are both equal (Wiccans believe in this with a God and Goddess, or Lord and Lady, who have equal control/power.
# panentheism — the universe is part of God
# dystheism or maltheism — that God or the gods are evil.
# Kathenotheism: there is more than one god, but only one at a time should be worshipped. Each is supreme in turn.
I've heard of panentheism and animism, but not the others - especially not kathenotheism.

Offline Hermes

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Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
« Reply #53 on: October 30, 2008, 04:46:54 PM »
Hey, I looked into the Theism article on Wikipedia, and there are all these other theisms there.

I'm going to list them because they are interesting.

# ditheism — that two gods exist and they are both equal (Wiccans believe in this with a God and Goddess, or Lord and Lady, who have equal control/power.
# panentheism — the universe is part of God
# dystheism or maltheism — that God or the gods are evil.
# Kathenotheism: there is more than one god, but only one at a time should be worshipped. Each is supreme in turn.
I've heard of panentheism and animism, but not the others - especially not kathenotheism.

New to me...notes follow;

Kathenotheism seems to be similar to henotheism.

Dystheism / maltheism adds another level to the matrix.  A gnostic monotheist could decide that the one deity is evil.

Panentheism - yep, I could add it, though it's a bit close to pantheism and that's not too popular (3 votes).
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Offline Hermes

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Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
« Reply #54 on: November 12, 2008, 01:55:40 PM »
Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons. --Michael Shermer

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Offline Seppuku

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Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
« Reply #55 on: November 12, 2008, 07:40:03 PM »
Agnostic atheist Buddhist. Admittedly, not the best Buddhist in practice.
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Offline Hermes

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Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
« Reply #56 on: November 12, 2008, 07:59:32 PM »
Hey, who would trust a cocky Buddhist?   ;D
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Offline Hermes

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Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
« Reply #57 on: November 16, 2008, 06:34:41 AM »
Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons. --Michael Shermer

The history of religion is a long attempt to reconcile old custom with new reason, to find a sound theory for an absurd practice.  --Sir James George Frazer