Author Topic: Gay-To-Straight Therapy Repudiated By Psychologists  (Read 14284 times)

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Offline Zankuu

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Re: Gay-To-Straight Therapy Repudiated By Psychologists
« Reply #145 on: September 29, 2009, 02:22:43 PM »
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I wanted a sum of her beliefs, not a sum of your view on her personal beliefs, silly.


Zankuu, she's orthodox Catholic. Everything she says is RCC doctrine.

Thank you, Gnu.
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Offline Hermes

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Re: Gay-To-Straight Therapy Repudiated By Psychologists
« Reply #146 on: September 29, 2009, 02:23:58 PM »
I do not believe that atheists are incapable of moral good – quite the contrary. But I find it fascinating that they cannot admit there are truths we all should abide by, as they have no problem believing in inalienable rights. So while you practice abosolute truth, you simultaneously deny such.

Don't lump us all in together.  I, for one, am an atheist, and I reject moral relativism -- rather strongly, in fact.  The only thing that all atheists have in common is that they lack belief in any deities.  You can't make any assumptions about anything else.

Agreed.  Yet, morality is not simple.  It is difficult and a hard fought struggle.  The details and the context matter.  Clinging to a tribal bureaucratic checklist shows a stunning lack of morality, not an understanding of it.  The whole 'Lying is bad, but when asked by the SS about any Jews in the area, offering up the honest truth that Ann Frank and her family are hiding in the house is not good'.

Consider this detailed analysis of morality as one example of how to address it without being relativistic;

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=9045.msg205267#msg205267
Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons. --Michael Shermer

The history of religion is a long attempt to reconcile old custom with new reason, to find a sound theory for an absurd practice.  --Sir James George Frazer

Offline PinkMilk

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Re: Gay-To-Straight Therapy Repudiated By Psychologists
« Reply #147 on: September 29, 2009, 02:24:21 PM »
Pinkmilk, the foundation for all of my arguments are that there is an obvious and observable design and order in the world. Things are made in a certain way and have a purpose based on their design. This is a no-brainer. Do you deny the order and design in the world?
I definitely deny design in the world. Order, is debatable. 
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Is that the criteria Pink? Because if that’s the only criteria what would one argue why incest is wrong? You couldn’t say because two
Says whom?
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From www.americancatholic.org/Newsletters/YU/ay0686.asp
“Knowing and doing right is challenging, but it is also very freeing. Such freedom is never without cost. You might well experience loneliness, confusion and even discouragement. Yet to be seeking the good choice is in some sense to have already found it.”
Cause that isn't coming from a biased source at all.  Definitely not coming from a source that is clearly against homosexuality.
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Pinkmilk, do take a look at some of my following links. Your precious APA shows very little objectivity in dealing with this issue . . .
You act as if I totally agree with everything the APA does.  I've never once stated this at all.  There are many things released by the APA that I would disagree with.

As such these statements mean nothing to me.
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I just found this as well. It addresses everything that we have been discussing and the very purpose of this original thread. How is it the truth continues to be suppressed by the erroneous views of a few? . . . . . .



This is a must read . . .


HOMOSEXUALITY AND HOPE:
Statement Of The Catholic Medical Association
November, 2000
www.narth.com/docs/hope.html



 Research proves that the APA’s discouragement of viewing homosexuality as a disorder is unfounded. Any psychologist today who supports the APA’s recommendations for treatment in those struggling with same sex attraction ought to be aware that in doing so he/she is ignoring the facts and current research and is putting their client at risk because of their own personal agenda. It’s amazing how convenient it is to ignore science when it runs counter to ones political views. 
Yay for yet another biased resource.

You fail to realize that statements from authoritative figures don't hold water.  You must prove the natural laws you say you base your claims on to be true.  Plain and simple. 

You did a wonderful job avoiding actually providing evidence for these things. 
I can see where your coming from but on the other hand i dont want my kid to learn about evolution or see homosexualisom talked about in a scince classs ethier. <-- From Youguysarepathetic

At least I have a mother. Have you? (serious question) <---From Skylark889

Offline Agent40

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Re: Gay-To-Straight Therapy Repudiated By Psychologists
« Reply #148 on: September 29, 2009, 03:21:46 PM »
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How was the family not yet established with Adam and Eve? There was a husband, there was a wife, and, early on, two children. Was the family not yet established even by the time of Abraham? Abraham is thought to have lived around 2000 B.C. That means two thousand years since Adam and Eve. Was the family still not established by that time? And where do you get this idea? Is there anywhere you have gotten it from besides just pulling it out of your ass?

Uhh, gee since everyone was originally related, how exactly would you suggest the planet be populated? You are creating a dilemma where none exists.


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Quote from: Agent40 on Today at 02:22:48 PMNot really. Do you honestly believe moral truth does not exist? Can rape ever be justified? What about tyranny?According to your bible, yes it can be. When God orders it.

God is not subject to moral law. God can only do good. He is all good. Therefore, God has never committed an immoral act. It is impossible. If you think He has engaged in some kind of immoral behavior you would be sadly mistaken. If everything He does is good and for good, he can do no wrong. Yet another example of a typical human only capable of applying his weakness and imperfections on God.

Offline Agent40

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Re: Gay-To-Straight Therapy Repudiated By Psychologists
« Reply #149 on: September 29, 2009, 03:23:34 PM »
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Don't lump us all in together.  I, for one, am an atheist, and I reject moral relativism -- rather strongly, in fact.  The only thing that all atheists have in common is that they lack belief in any deities.  You can't make any assumptions about anything else.

Agree. And if right and wrong exist, then homosexual acts obviously fall into wrong – as they violate the natural moral order.




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What about male babies who lose their penis at birth. According to you, they cannot call themselves a "man"?

Actually, that would be according to you – not me. As I have continually stated a truth exists.




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I did go back thru the last several pages looking for something I wanted to address but couldn't find it again, so I'll have to put it in this separate post instead: Agent40, you appear to be equating disorder with immorality.  Don't.  They're not the same thing.  Schizophrenia is a disorder, too, but there is no ethical content in being a schizophrenic.

I am not equating disorder with immorality. I have mentioned numerous times that homosexuality is a disorder. However, this disorder in and of itself is not immoral. It would only be immoral if one were to engage in homosexual acts.

Pedophilia is a disorder, but if the person cannot help being attracted to children, he has committed no sin. However, if he acts on his feelings that would be immoral.

Surely, a schizophrenia is not faulted for being a schizophrenic, but does the person's disorder give them a free pass to commit immoral acts?


Offline Agent40

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Re: Gay-To-Straight Therapy Repudiated By Psychologists
« Reply #150 on: September 29, 2009, 03:25:18 PM »
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But you failed to answer the point: if a person has a fully functional vagina and penis, is she a he? He a she?


I don’t know. And neither might science, but God knows.

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Does such a person have to ignore the *cough* natural desires they feel for someone with a penis/vagina and not have any sex just incase they sin?


Perhaps. Should a pedophile ignore his “cough” natural desire and not have sex?

Life can be tough, but there is more to life than sexual intercourse.


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I wanted a sum of her beliefs, not a sum of your view on her personal beliefs, silly.


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Zankuu, she's orthodox Catholic. Everything she says is RCC doctrine.

I’m not sure I know how to respond to that. If you asked me my favorite painting – I would not respond with RCC doctrine.

To the best of my ability, I try to answer with truth. Cool though how you’ve noticed that always seems to be equivalent to RCC doctrine.  :)


Offline subtleinspiration

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Re: Gay-To-Straight Therapy Repudiated By Psychologists
« Reply #151 on: September 29, 2009, 03:28:25 PM »
I don’t know. And neither might science, but God knows.

Nice dodge.

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Perhaps. Should a pedophile ignore his “cough” natural desire and not have sex?

Why would you have a problem with that? The bible doesn't make it a sin to have sex with a child, so if a pedophile wants to get married to a nine year old girl, then it's not a sin.
"As a God fearing Christian,  you should never ever date an Atheist. One night alone with an atheist is enough for you to lose your faith and to be converted into one of the spiritually dead."

Offline Agent40

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Re: Gay-To-Straight Therapy Repudiated By Psychologists
« Reply #152 on: September 29, 2009, 03:29:51 PM »
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Pianodwarf:
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Schizophrenia is a disorder, too, but there is no ethical content in being a schizophren
ic.

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Likewise bulimia. Agent40 regularly asserts that people with bulimia are immoral for not using their digestive systems according to the intended design.

Wrong, Gnu. I never said bulimics are immoral. I said the act of eating a lot of food and then purposely vomiting it up is a disordered act and therefore wrong (immoral). Were you trying to twist my words, or do you simply not understand?


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Haven't seen that before... must have been before I started reading here regularly.  That's pretty disappointing, and I'm actually rather surprised, too, even though I suppose I probably shouldn't be.

You should be surprised, because Gnu misrepresented my position. I’m actually surprised too. Gnu, is usually more honest than that. I’m going to assume he didn’t understand me.


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Agreed.  Yet, morality is not simple.  It is difficult and a hard fought struggle.  The details and the context matter.  Clinging to a tribal bureaucratic checklist shows a stunning lack of morality, not an understanding of it.  The whole 'Lying is bad, but when asked by the SS about any Jews in the area, offering up the honest truth that Ann Frank and her family are hiding in the house is not good'
.

This is a common misunderstanding of moral truth. Of course what is right or wrong depends on the situation. As killing another person in self defense is not wrong. But this is not to mean that moral truth does not exist. There are actions/behavior we all know to be wrong and we can  and do insist that others abide by those truths. Feel free to play your little hypothetical moral dilemma scenario games, but those games wouldn't even be possible if there was not some absolute standard of truth in the first place.    



Offline subtleinspiration

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Re: Gay-To-Straight Therapy Repudiated By Psychologists
« Reply #153 on: September 29, 2009, 03:35:02 PM »
Wrong, Gnu. I never said bulimics are immoral. I said the act of eating a lot of food and then purposely vomiting it up is a disordered act and therefore wrong (immoral). Were you trying to twist my words, or do you simply not understand?

Agent40, don't be a bitch. If the act of bulimia is immoral, then why aren't bulimics immoral? That would be like you saying that the act of pedophilia is immoral, but that pedophiles aren't immoral. It makes no sense.

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You should be surprised, because Gnu misrepresented my position.

No he didn't.

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There are actions/behavior we all know to be wrong and we can  and do insist that others abide by those truths.

Until god tells you to do it (rape virgins, sacrifice your child, ect.)

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Feel free to play your little hypothetical moral dilemma scenario games, but those games wouldn't even be possible if there was not some absolute standard of truth in the first place.    

There isn't. What out of the bible is absolute morality? Thou Shalt Not Kill? Tell that to the Midianites. Don't eat shellfish? I'd be surprised if you haven't done that yourself.
"As a God fearing Christian,  you should never ever date an Atheist. One night alone with an atheist is enough for you to lose your faith and to be converted into one of the spiritually dead."

Offline pianodwarf

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Re: Gay-To-Straight Therapy Repudiated By Psychologists
« Reply #154 on: September 29, 2009, 04:20:27 PM »
if right and wrong exist, then homosexual acts obviously fall into wrong – as they violate the natural moral order.

(I'm having images of that episode of Classic Trek where the robot Nomad lazily drawls, "Non sequitur"...)

You're still conflating disorder and immorality, as subtleinspiration just pointed out.  It is not immoral -- or moral, for that matter -- to have a disorder.

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Surely, a schizophrenia is not faulted for being a schizophrenic, but does the person's disorder give them a free pass to commit immoral acts?

No, but those with diminished mental capacity are not held to the same standards, legally, as those who are psychologically sound.  A schizophrenic who commits a murder is more likely to receive inpatient psychiatric treatment than good ol' prison.
[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]:  Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

Offline Onesimus

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Re: Gay-To-Straight Therapy Repudiated By Psychologists
« Reply #155 on: September 29, 2009, 04:28:07 PM »
This is one of those "not having an unsubscribe button is torment" kinds of threads.  Fortunately, my scroll button gets a nice workout.

Offline pianodwarf

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Re: Gay-To-Straight Therapy Repudiated By Psychologists
« Reply #156 on: September 29, 2009, 04:35:26 PM »
This is one of those "not having an unsubscribe button is torment" kinds of threads.  Fortunately, my scroll button gets a nice workout.

I know what you mean.  There's one person on this site, in particular, that I really wish I could put on some kind of a gag list.  But oh well.  (No, I'm not going to say who it is.)
[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]:  Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

Offline Gnu Ordure

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Re: Gay-To-Straight Therapy Repudiated By Psychologists
« Reply #157 on: September 29, 2009, 04:38:28 PM »
Agent40,

It would be really, really helpful to everyone if you would identify in your posts who you are talking to.

If you just quote someone's words, that person will probably recognize them, but the rest of us probably won't, so we can't follow the discussion.

Please.

If your post is addressed to one person, start it with "Dear X".

If you quote someone else, identify them by typing "X said:" before the quote.

Please?

« Last Edit: September 29, 2009, 05:07:07 PM by Gnu Ordure »

Offline Gnu Ordure

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Re: Gay-To-Straight Therapy Repudiated By Psychologists
« Reply #158 on: September 29, 2009, 05:06:11 PM »
A40:
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Wrong, Gnu. I never said bulimics are immoral.

My bad. Sloppy language. I fully understand that immorality applies to the act not the person. Let's go with what you say:

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I said the act of eating a lot of food and then purposely vomiting it up is a disordered act and therefore wrong (immoral).

Fine.

That's my point anyway. You say the act of self-induced vomiting is immoral, whereas we say it's a symptom of mental illness.

OK?

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That was the original topic of this thread if you recall. The APA was criticizing therapy to help a person struggling with same-sex attraction to not act on those feelings as ineffective or wrong. Of course, such a criticism is based merely on the opinion of a group of psychologists who choose to follow the principles of pop psychology and push their agenda or opinion that engaging in homosexual acts is ok.  


Agent40, that is simply ridiculous. Clinical Psychology is a medical profession. It is governed across America by the APA, a democratically elected body.

So, the APA is not just "a group of psychologists".

And they don't "follow the principles of pop psychology", whatever they are.

Gnu.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2009, 05:37:26 PM by Gnu Ordure »

Offline jazzman

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Re: Gay-To-Straight Therapy Repudiated By Psychologists
« Reply #159 on: September 29, 2009, 05:39:20 PM »
Tell me, Jazzman, how again have you come to derive that homosexual acts are ok? What are you basing this view on?
After everything I wrote -- and to which you responded -- you still need to ask this question?  The answer has already been before your eyes, but you weren't paying attention. 

Your cranial density is surpassed only by your indocibility.  You really are a piece o' work.  Sheesh!

I'll leave you with this: Homosexuality is a natural human sexual orientation.  Homosexual sex is, therefore, a natural form of sexual expression for people who are homosexual.  As a natural form of sexual expression, homosexual sex is neither moral nor immoral in and of itself.  Your view that homosexual sex violates the natural moral order is based on faulty logic and your lack of understanding of just how much we know about the formation of sexual orientation in humans and other animals.  I won't bother trying to educate you on that, because YOU DON'T WANT TO KNOW. 

If you ever do want to find out what we understand about the nature of sexual orientation in humans, there's much for you to learn, and more than one source from which to learn.  All you need to do is take the first step, which could easily start with "Google," or perhaps a visit to http://www.apa.org/topics/sorientation.html, or maybe http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_prof.htm.  After that, how far you go to increase your awareness and understanding of homosexuality is strictly up to you.  But until you've made yourself smart on the science of sexual orientation, a conversation between the two of us on this subject is a waste of my time.  You're too uninformed about human sexual orientation for me to take your views seriously enough to keep this conversation going.

Good-bye for now.

Jazzman
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Re: Gay-To-Straight Therapy Repudiated By Psychologists
« Reply #160 on: September 29, 2009, 05:49:26 PM »
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Of course not.  I showed up and put the lie to your "all homosexuals are from bad family environments" argument, so you ignored me.


I wasn’t ignoring you. And I did respond to the point you were trying to make. Your point was I’m a homosexual and I’m happy living a homosexual lifestyle and I did not have a dysfunctional upbringing. I responded that often a person who is involved in a homosexual lifestyle is unable to see it for what it is. And as far as your point about growing up “normal”, sometimes people are unaware of something that might have happened to them when they were young or even simply unaware of how something might have affected them physically or psychologically.

Agent40, do you consider it honest, or not honest, to assume that you know more about someone's life than they do?

It's an either-or question.  Take your time.
The highest moral human authority is copied by our Gandhi neurons through observation.

Offline Hermes

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Re: Gay-To-Straight Therapy Repudiated By Psychologists
« Reply #161 on: September 29, 2009, 06:11:59 PM »
God is not subject to moral law. God can only do good. He is all good. Therefore, God has never committed an immoral act. It is impossible. If you think He has engaged in some kind of immoral behavior you would be sadly mistaken. If everything He does is good and for good, he can do no wrong. Yet another example of a typical human only capable of applying his weakness and imperfections on God.

While there is much to comment on, I have one question;

* Where did your deity supposedly ever say it was good?
Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons. --Michael Shermer

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Offline PinkMilk

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Re: Gay-To-Straight Therapy Repudiated By Psychologists
« Reply #162 on: September 29, 2009, 07:44:06 PM »
Agent40,
Are you ever going to provide evidence for your natural moral order on which you base all of your claims or not?

I don’t know. And neither might science, but God knows.
So then if this person chose the wrong gender to follow, then by your standards they would be acting immorally.  That hardly seems fair.  And science is able to determine which gender hermaphrodites are by testing for which hormone is predominant in that person's system. 
So if your idea of morality is correct, then that means that there are people who are damned to take a gamble.  Hardly sounds like a good system. 
I can see where your coming from but on the other hand i dont want my kid to learn about evolution or see homosexualisom talked about in a scince classs ethier. <-- From Youguysarepathetic

At least I have a mother. Have you? (serious question) <---From Skylark889

Offline DI

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Re: Gay-To-Straight Therapy Repudiated By Psychologists
« Reply #163 on: September 29, 2009, 08:23:23 PM »
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Of course not.  I showed up and put the lie to your "all homosexuals are from bad family environments" argument, so you ignored me.


I wasn’t ignoring you. And I did respond to the point you were trying to make. Your point was I’m a homosexual and I’m happy living a homosexual lifestyle and I did not have a dysfunctional upbringing. I responded that often a person who is involved in a homosexual lifestyle is unable to see it for what it is. And as far as your point about growing up “normal”, sometimes people are unaware of something that might have happened to them when they were young or even simply unaware of how something might have affected them physically or psychologically.

Agent40, do you consider it honest, or not honest, to assume that you know more about someone's life than they do?

It's an either-or question.  Take your time.

bump, and:



Your point was I’m a homosexual theist and I’m happy living a homosexual theist lifestyle and I did not have a dysfunctional upbringing. I responded that often a person who is involved in a homosexual theist lifestyle is unable to see it for what it is. And as far as your point about growing up “normal”, sometimes people are unaware of something that might have happened to them when they were young or even simply unaware of how something might have affected them physically or psychologically.

[/quote]

i love doing that
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Re: Gay-To-Straight Therapy Repudiated By Psychologists
« Reply #164 on: September 29, 2009, 08:52:52 PM »
Indeed, DI.  Agent40 would no doubt see the bigotry inherent in your altered paragraph if it was actually put forth as a commentary on theism.  That she does not acknowledge the essentially identical bigotry in her own paragraph only shows her hypocrisy.
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Offline Agent40

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Re: Gay-To-Straight Therapy Repudiated By Psychologists
« Reply #165 on: September 29, 2009, 09:04:20 PM »

Subtleinspiration,

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Agent40, don't be a bitch. If the act of bulimia is immoral, then why aren't bulimics immoral? That would be like you saying that the act of pedophilia is immoral, but that pedophiles aren't immoral. It makes no sense.

Of course it makes sense. Schizophrenia is a disorder, so are schizophrenics immoral?



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There are actions/behavior we all know to be wrong and we can  and do insist that others abide by those truths.
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Until god tells you to do it (rape virgins, sacrifice your child, ect.)

This is an ignorant comment, because actually you do not realize the truth of what you are saying. God would not command a person to do something immoral. If God commands it – by definition it could not be immoral. You do not understand my religion or scripture. You twist and contort what you do not understand because you think you are smarter than God.


.
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What out of the bible is absolute morality?

My original comments were absolute truth exists. Therefore your question is what out of the bible is truth?

Uum? Try everything.



Offline Agent40

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Re: Gay-To-Straight Therapy Repudiated By Psychologists
« Reply #166 on: September 29, 2009, 09:05:53 PM »
Pianodwarf,

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You're still conflating disorder and immorality, as subtleinspiration just pointed out.  It is not immoral -- or moral, for that matter -- to have a disorder.
No, I’m not. It is not immoral to have a disorder. I never said otherwise.


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Surely, a schizophrenia is not faulted for being a schizophrenic, but does the person's disorder give them a free pass to commit immoral acts?
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No, but those with diminished mental capacity are not held to the same standards, legally, as those who are psychologically sound.  A schizophrenic who commits a murder is more likely to receive inpatient psychiatric treatment than good ol' prison.


Of course. And having a disorder can certainly explain a person’s behavior, but it doesn’t mean we should support immoral behavior from someone simply because they suffer a disorder. Wouldn’t you agree?

Offline Agent40

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Re: Gay-To-Straight Therapy Repudiated By Psychologists
« Reply #167 on: September 29, 2009, 09:06:45 PM »
Gnu Ordure,

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That's my point anyway. You say the act of self-induced vomiting is immoral, whereas we say it's a symptom of mental illness.

OK?


No, not ok. I believe you are not being intellectually dishonest with yourself. Why do we believe that a person who purposely eats food and them vomits it up has a mental disorder? What makes us all initially innately know that such behavior is wrong?

That is MY point, Gnu. We all instinctually can determine that such behavior is wrong because the person is using their body in a way in which it was not intended. We all know the person is not following the proper order of things. It is because of that that we then go on to assess that they must have some kind of mental illness that would cause them to engage in a behavior that we all know to be wrong.



******** I still haven’t even looked at your posts on our other thread. This one seems more lively now. I’ll get to it when I can.

Offline Agent40

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Re: Gay-To-Straight Therapy Repudiated By Psychologists
« Reply #168 on: September 29, 2009, 09:08:14 PM »
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Tell me, Jazzman, how again have you come to derive that homosexual acts are ok? What are you basing this view on?
After everything I wrote -- and to which you responded -- you still need to ask this question?  The answer has already been before your eyes, but you weren't paying attention.



Gee, I must have missed that Jazzman. Why don’t you just give me the quick version – a sentence or two. Surely, you can briefly explain why homosexual acts are ok.


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I'll leave you with this: Homosexuality is a natural human sexual orientation.
 

Debunked – one could say the same about pedophilia and beastiality.


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Your view that homosexual sex violates the natural moral order is based on faulty logic and your lack of understanding of just how much we know about the formation of sexual orientation in humans and other animals.


Really? You mean faulty logic like not accepting that order and design mean something. You mean faulty logic that denies the scientific evidence and facts regarding those who engage in a homosexual lifestyle are more likely to suffer depression, abusive relationships, substance abuse, and sexually transmitted diseases. You mean like that faulty logic?


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If you ever do want to find out what we understand about the nature of sexual orientation in humans, there's much for you to learn



Right back at you Jazzman. I hope you will pursue it.

Offline Agent40

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Re: Gay-To-Straight Therapy Repudiated By Psychologists
« Reply #169 on: September 29, 2009, 09:08:48 PM »
Azgardi,

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Agent40, do you consider it honest, or not honest, to assume that you know more about someone's life than they do?

It's an either-or question.  Take your time.

If you had a friend who was struggling with a drug addiction, do you not think you could apply certain judgments or advice based on our knowledge in general regarding those who have struggled with drug addiction? We do things like this all the time in life. Because although every case is unique, there are also shared behaviors of those who struggle with certain things. To not acknowledge this is what would be dishonest.

Offline Agent40

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Re: Gay-To-Straight Therapy Repudiated By Psychologists
« Reply #170 on: September 29, 2009, 09:12:15 PM »
Hermes,

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Where did your deity supposedly ever say it was good?
   


Genesis 1

The Beginning

 1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
 2 Now the earth was [a] formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
 3 And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and He separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light "day," and the darkness he called "night." And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.
 6 And God said, "Let there be an expanse between the waters to separate water from water." 7 So God made the expanse and separated the water under the expanse from the water above it. And it was so. 8 God called the expanse "sky." And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day.
 9 And God said, "Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear." And it was so. 10 God called the dry ground "land," and the gathered waters he called "seas." And God saw that it was good.
 11 Then God said, "Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds." And it was so. 12 The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. 13 And there was evening, and there was morning—the third day.
 14 And God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth." And it was so. 16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.
 20 And God said, "Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the expanse of the sky." 21 So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living and moving thing with which the water teems, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 22 God blessed them and said, "Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the water in the seas, and let the birds increase on the earth." 23 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fifth day.
 24 And God said, "Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: livestock, creatures that move along the ground, and wild animals, each according to its kind." And it was so. 25 God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.
 26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."
 27 So God created man in his own image,
       in the image of God he created him;
       male and female he created them.
 28 God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground."
 29 Then God said, "I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. 30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air and all the creatures that move on the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food." And it was so.
 31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day.



« Last Edit: September 29, 2009, 09:17:04 PM by Agent40 »

Offline Agent40

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Re: Gay-To-Straight Therapy Repudiated By Psychologists
« Reply #171 on: September 29, 2009, 09:13:21 PM »
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So then if this person chose the wrong gender to follow, then by your standards they would be acting immorally.  That hardly seems fair.  And science is able to determine which gender hermaphrodites are by testing for which hormone is predominant in that person's system. 
So if your idea of morality is correct, then that means that there are people who are damned to take a gamble.  Hardly sounds like a good system


No, Pinkmilk, that is not what it means. You all continue to look deeply for the flaws in my worldview. You continue to set forth extreme examples in the hope of tripping me up so to speak. It is silly to take am example of a hermaphrodite and want me to make some blanket statement. As you said yourself, it can be determined the sex that the person is suppose to be – so what exactly is the problem? Typically, in these cases if a person has extra genitalia it can be taken care of when they are young. The incorrect parts can be removed or whatever, in which case the person can go on to lead quite a normal life. Why must you all make something more there? If it is truly a case where even science is baffled – which I highly doubt is very common – then yes, I suppose in that rare instance it might be better were the person to sexually abstain. I’m sorry if you have a problem with that, but how can you be so sure the person would have a problem with that? Again, Pinkmilk, my views are not as extreme as you like to paint them and they are much more logical then your own.

Offline Agent40

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Re: Gay-To-Straight Therapy Repudiated By Psychologists
« Reply #172 on: September 29, 2009, 09:14:05 PM »
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Your point was I’m a  theist and I’m happy living a  theist lifestyle and I did not have a dysfunctional upbringing. I responded that often a person who is involved in a  theist lifestyle is unable to see it for what it is. And as far as your point about growing up “normal”, sometimes people are unaware of something that might have happened to them when they were young or even simply unaware of how something might have affected them physically or psychologically.


Yes, Di, and if being a theist was often the result of childhood rape or an abusive parent, or if being a theist meant statistically one would be more likely to suffer from depression, suicide, substance abuse, abusive relationships, or sexually transmitted disease – you might have a point.

Offline Zankuu

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Re: Gay-To-Straight Therapy Repudiated By Psychologists
« Reply #173 on: September 29, 2009, 09:33:53 PM »
This is an ignorant comment, because actually you do not realize the truth of what you are saying. God would not command a person to do something immoral. If God commands it – by definition it could not be immoral. You do not understand my religion or scripture. You twist and contort what you do not understand because you think you are smarter than God.

Agent40, I'm not sure I agree. Here are a few things God commanded:

Genesis 22:2 God commands Abraham to kill his son and use him as a burnt offering.

Leviticus 26:7 God commands the Israelites to chase their enemies and make them fall by their sword.

Samuel 15:3 God commands Saul to smite Amalek and kill man, woman, infant, suckling, ox, sheep, camel and ass.

That last one is a doozy, slaughtering infants? I consider that immoral and I'm not sure how you can twist it to show otherwise. And those are just off the top of my head. I'm sure there are verses far more grotesque. Don't forget all the animals God senselessly commanded to be sacrificed to himself.
Leave nothing to chance. Overlook nothing. Combine contradictory observations. Allow yourself enough time. -Hippocrates of Cos