Author Topic: Thunderf00t/Comfort disscussion is up  (Read 4554 times)

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Offline Max Kodan

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Re: Thunderf00t/Comfort disscussion is up
« Reply #58 on: July 27, 2009, 01:38:36 PM »
I'd like to take a moment and look back at some of the things Ray said that made me laugh...

Quote from: Ray
"I'd like to see something that gives birth to something not of its own kind. Other than? the speciation thing."

Quote from: Tf00t and Ray(Paraphrased)
"Explain to me what Evolution is."
"That's not a question I'm going to answer."

Quote from: Tf00t and Ray(Paraphrased)
"Do you believe in witches?"
"Yes"
If you consider speed to be a 3D vector it doesn't really matter whether you call it momentum or speed.

Offline JesusHChrist

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Re: Thunderf00t/Comfort disscussion is up
« Reply #59 on: July 27, 2009, 06:57:28 PM »
Seems like the Christian God is not only a jealous god, but one with an unrequited stalker mentality; 'They'll love me, they know they do, and if they don't, I'm going to get my just revenge'. 

"It puts the cracker in its mouth or it gets the lake of fire!"
Love the Christian. Hate the delusion.

"you dick hole just go f**k your self in hell go to hell !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! damn iam a strong beliver in the christ and he is compbeled at you !!!!!!!! screw you baster !!!!!!!!" -- random Christian #1636

Offline none

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Re: Thunderf00t/Comfort disscussion is up
« Reply #60 on: July 27, 2009, 07:03:09 PM »
this is a very disturbing video clip from the silence of the lambs movie, but I think it characterizes the biblegod succinctly.


Offline thegodiknew

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Re: Thunderf00t/Comfort disscussion is up
« Reply #61 on: July 27, 2009, 09:28:41 PM »
I never saw the God/mankind symbolism before. Great catch.
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Offline Hermes

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Re: Thunderf00t/Comfort disscussion is up
« Reply #62 on: July 27, 2009, 09:44:16 PM »
Seems like the Christian God is not only a jealous god, but one with an unrequited stalker mentality; 'They'll love me, they know they do, and if they don't, I'm going to get my just revenge'.

"It puts the cracker in its mouth or it gets the lake of fire!"

If only we had God's poodle.
Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons. --Michael Shermer

The history of religion is a long attempt to reconcile old custom with new reason, to find a sound theory for an absurd practice.  --Sir James George Frazer

Offline Codswallop

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Re: Thunderf00t/Comfort disscussion is up
« Reply #63 on: July 28, 2009, 07:28:43 AM »
Seems like the Christian God is not only a jealous god, but one with an unrequited stalker mentality; 'They'll love me, they know they do, and if they don't, I'm going to get my just revenge'. 

"It puts the cracker in its mouth or it gets the lake of fire!"

I would only eat the cracker with some fava beans and a nice chianti.
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Offline VacuusMonastica

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Re: Thunderf00t/Comfort disscussion is up
« Reply #64 on: July 28, 2009, 11:30:01 AM »
I've just finished watching it all, and while I love TF00t's videos, I think this did more harm than good overall. TF00t's unfamiliarity with debating and the stuttering just ruins it. That video will be used against any type of non-theistic take on the world because he comes across as a stumbling, bumbling fool and not the scientist he is.
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Offline Red McWilliams

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Re: Thunderf00t/Comfort disscussion is up
« Reply #65 on: July 28, 2009, 09:58:35 PM »
I've just finished watching it all, and while I love TF00t's videos, I think this did more harm than good overall. TF00t's unfamiliarity with debating and the stuttering just ruins it. That video will be used against any type of non-theistic take on the world because he comes across as a stumbling, bumbling fool and not the scientist he is.

Yes exactly.  And he should have known better.  The fact that he admits he was completely inexperienced yet went in anyway is shameful to me.  Whatever good he thinks he may have done by 'contrasting the two styles', tons more harm will be done with this video by Comfort.  I wouldn't be surprised if clips have already made it to his Way of the Master TV show with a heading like "this is the best these Darwinist atheists can offer and look how lost he is!".
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Offline Hermes

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Re: Thunderf00t/Comfort disscussion is up
« Reply #66 on: July 28, 2009, 10:15:47 PM »
Nerves are a big deal.

There's a heart medication -- nitroglycerin? probably not ... -- that steadies the heart rate.  It makes nerves go away.  It is ideal for dealing with high-stress environments, but at the same time it nukes the flight or fright impulse.  The problem with that is that if you can't feel, your reactions may be flat or inappropriate.  For example, if you are on a date and take the heart medication to calm your nerves you will end up with a problem if she/he wants to get intimate.  They will be racing ... you will be passive, even if the person in front of you is your ideal or your love of your life.

Yet, in debates, without the decades of experience your opponent may have, being placid.  Being unemotional.  These things may be the proper response.  In a 'heart beat' I would use such tools.  I'm not an expert with that experience, nor would I use them constantly.  One on one, I can be aggressive yet natural and subtle -- things not often available in a more public debate.
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Offline Onesimus

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Re: Thunderf00t/Comfort disscussion is up
« Reply #67 on: July 28, 2009, 11:10:14 PM »
I've just finished watching it all, and while I love TF00t's videos, I think this did more harm than good overall. TF00t's unfamiliarity with debating and the stuttering just ruins it. That video will be used against any type of non-theistic take on the world because he comes across as a stumbling, bumbling fool and not the scientist he is.

Yes exactly.  And he should have known better.  The fact that he admits he was completely inexperienced yet went in anyway is shameful to me.  Whatever good he thinks he may have done by 'contrasting the two styles', tons more harm will be done with this video by Comfort.  I wouldn't be surprised if clips have already made it to his Way of the Master TV show with a heading like "this is the best these Darwinist atheists can offer and look how lost he is!".

So Comfort gets another tool to preach to the already converted.  I honestly don't think that's it's going to change any minds; no one who previously agreed with TF is going to have their minds changed by Comfort's oily schmooze or TF's uncomfortable stammering. 

As much as the term "learning opportunity" is a hateful one, it can certainly apply to TF in this case.  He's already used to the idea that knowledge is always open to new information, and should have no problem using this rather hard lesson to sharpen and focus his approach.  He may have had his ass handed to him in the area of public image, but he still has a much more knowledgeable and defensible world view!  The public image is going to be an easier fix.

Offline Red McWilliams

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Re: Thunderf00t/Comfort disscussion is up
« Reply #68 on: July 29, 2009, 08:03:36 AM »
I'm not trying to pick on you, Ony, but I hear the "this debate isn't going to change anybody's mind" argument a lot.

I have to point out that if that were true, most of us would still be in church (and vice versa with a lot of believers).  Granted, it wasn't one isolated moment that made us deconvert but seeing creationist ideas exposed publicly for the fraud they are certainly prompted me to dig further.

I'd be willing to bet a large sum of money that there's at least one person who subscribes to Thunderf00t's channel who claimed to be an atheist but wasn't real sure why.  Now that person is going to pay a little more attention to Ray Comfort and he's going to see Ray dissecting the "debate" and pointing out the parts where Thunderf00t looked really bad and that quasi atheist is going to start considering the fact that Ray might actually be correct about this god business.

Sure, it probably won't happen much, but considering the huge deficit that nonbelievers are coming from, I don't think we can afford to have these kinds of high profile flubs. 
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Offline Codswallop

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Re: Thunderf00t/Comfort disscussion is up
« Reply #69 on: July 29, 2009, 08:11:32 AM »
As much as the term "learning opportunity" is a hateful one, it can certainly apply to TF in this case. 

Also known as a "teachable moment." Yuk!
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Offline Onesimus

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Re: Thunderf00t/Comfort disscussion is up
« Reply #70 on: July 29, 2009, 03:21:34 PM »
Sure, it probably won't happen much, but considering the huge deficit that nonbelievers are coming from, I don't think we can afford to have these kinds of high profile flubs. 

I guess I don't see it as "high profile".  We all might know who TF is, but that's because we all have our noses glued to the net.  Comfort has considerably more "star power" in the broadcast media, and his camp will largely see TF as a largely unknown fringe character.

Whether we can "afford" it or not, it's happened.  I still want to give TF his opportunity to make something out of this setback. 



Offline thegodiknew

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Re: Thunderf00t/Comfort disscussion is up
« Reply #71 on: July 29, 2009, 03:56:48 PM »
Isn't this the essence of the scientific method? To propose a hypothesis and then to experiment. Isn't the road to a working theory fraught with failed experiments?

So ThunderF00t came up with a hypothesis, I can sit down with an out spoken creationist and have a reasonable discussion.

He ran the experiment in Comforts office, surrounded by Comforts people, on camera, without any experience in public debate.

The experiment failed to produce the results wanted.

ThunderF00t and all of us did learn from this.

I can gaurantee that Ray learned nothing. He only had his own erroneous presuppostions strengthened. He came away emboldened. A little more sure. A little more cocky. And therefore little more vulnerable.

All of us Alpha's, from the Four Horsemen to the YouTubers to you and me on the street, are up against an entrenched foe, a fortress of unreason, an army of the imaginary indoctrinated in the cult beliefs from birth since the age of bronze. We can expect a time of probing the defenses, finding the weak spots and bloodied noses in the process.

TF probed the defenses with his experiment and we can all learn from it if we don't run away in fear of looking like a fool.

Looks are not important. Only courage.

Bravo ThunderF00t

Anything worth doing is worth doing porrly... in the beginning.

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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Thunderf00t/Comfort disscussion is up
« Reply #72 on: July 29, 2009, 04:05:04 PM »
Seems like the Christian God is not only a jealous god, but one with an unrequited stalker mentality; 'They'll love me, they know they do, and if they don't, I'm going to get my just revenge'. 

"It puts the cracker in its mouth or it gets the lake of fire!"

"Uhhh, I think I'll go for the Lake of Fire for all eternity, Alex."
"And that's an audio Daily double!" cue tape of horrible screaming amid crackling flames....
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Red McWilliams

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Re: Thunderf00t/Comfort disscussion is up
« Reply #73 on: July 29, 2009, 04:21:34 PM »
I guess I don't see it as "high profile".  We all might know who TF is, but that's because we all have our noses glued to the net.  Comfort has considerably more "star power" in the broadcast media, and his camp will largely see TF as a largely unknown fringe character.

I promise you Comfort can, and will, sell this as a huge win to his constituency.

Quote
Whether we can "afford" it or not, it's happened.  I still want to give TF his opportunity to make something out of this setback. 

Sure, but I want all of us to make something out of this setback.  Namely, don't try debating in the major leagues until you've cut your teeth in the minors.
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Offline Emily

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Re: Thunderf00t/Comfort disscussion is up
« Reply #74 on: July 29, 2009, 04:23:46 PM »
One thing is for certain, you gotta thank thunderf00t for keeping his word by posting it on his channel for the creationists to see his mistakes.
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Offline Red McWilliams

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Re: Thunderf00t/Comfort disscussion is up
« Reply #75 on: July 29, 2009, 04:34:29 PM »
So ThunderF00t came up with a hypothesis, I can sit down with an out spoken creationist and have a reasonable discussion.

Absolutely, but he should have done this testing on a small scale first, not in a major league venue.  It was reckless and arrogant for him to think he could waltz into Comfort's office with zero practice face to face and hold his own.

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He ran the experiment in Comforts office, surrounded by Comforts people, on camera, without any experience in public debate.

Yes, and shame on him for doing so.

Quote
The experiment failed to produce the results wanted.

The experiment could not have produced any other result than failure.  Comfort is a master at his craft.  It's idiocy to assume a complete virgin could hold his own against that guy.  The points of fact mean almost nothing here.  What's important is how you represent your position to the other side.  Thunderf00t should have known that there's no way he was going to be able to give a good showing.

Quote
ThunderF00t and all of us did learn from this.

So what do you think the lesson here is?

Quote
I can gaurantee that Ray learned nothing. He only had his own erroneous presuppostions strengthened. He came away emboldened. A little more sure. A little more cocky. And therefore little more vulnerable.

He's only vulnerable if we learn how to exploit it.  That's why I'm railing on Thunderf00t so hard; so that everyone can see clearly what his mistakes were so that we don't repeat them.

Quote
TF probed the defenses with his experiment and we can all learn from it if we don't run away in fear of looking like a fool.

Those defenses need to be probed off camera in a small setting where you're fuck-ups won't be broadcast to hundreds of thousands of people.

Did you see my baseball analogy?

Quote
Looks are not important. Only courage.

No.  Looks are incredibly important.  If we don't look like we know what we're doing, no one will listen to us.  If we don't make the Ray Comforts of the world look like the idiotic mouth breathers that they are, people will continue to listen to them.

Quote
Anything worth doing is worth doing porrly... in the beginning.

Definitely, that's why in the beginning you don't stick your chest out like a banty rooster and challenge the seasoned pros before you've even learned the game.  That's stupid.  Can you imagine a football team made up of entirely of people who'd been playing the game less than a month who then tries to compete with real NFL teams?  They'd get killed and everyone would laugh at them.

I sure hope everyone has learned from this.
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Offline Onesimus

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Re: Thunderf00t/Comfort disscussion is up
« Reply #76 on: July 29, 2009, 05:19:25 PM »
So what do you think the lesson here is?

To have a public career, one must cultivate a public image and be ready to inhabit it at all times. 

Offline thegodiknew

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Re: Thunderf00t/Comfort disscussion is up
« Reply #77 on: July 29, 2009, 05:29:02 PM »
Quote
Quote
ThunderF00t and all of us did learn from this.

So what do you think the lesson here is?

...in the beginning you don't stick your chest out like a banty rooster and challenge the seasoned pros before you've even learned the game. 

The lesson is there is a game to learn if you are going toe to toe. It seems to me that TF didn't fully grasp this before the charged in.

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Offline Hermes

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Re: Thunderf00t/Comfort disscussion is up
« Reply #78 on: July 29, 2009, 05:59:23 PM »
He stepped up.  He did it.  More than I can say for myself.
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Offline Ambassador Pony

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Re: Thunderf00t/Comfort disscussion is up
« Reply #79 on: July 29, 2009, 06:50:45 PM »
I hereby challenge Ray Comfort to a debate!

You believe evolution and there is no evidence for that. Where is the fossil record of a half man half ape. I've only ever heard about it in reading.

Offline Red McWilliams

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Re: Thunderf00t/Comfort disscussion is up
« Reply #80 on: July 29, 2009, 07:56:18 PM »
The lesson is there is a game to learn if you are going toe to toe. It seems to me that TF didn't fully grasp this before the charged in.

We are in agreement on that.

To have a public career, one must cultivate a public image and be ready to inhabit it at all times. 

Maybe not at all times, but you're certainly on to something.
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Offline Red McWilliams

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Re: Thunderf00t/Comfort disscussion is up
« Reply #81 on: July 29, 2009, 07:57:52 PM »
He stepped up.  He did it.  More than I can say for myself.

I wish he hadn't.  I don't think we should award points for effort here.  The issue is too big and too serious.  Results should be our focus, not effort.
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Offline Not on the fence

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Re: Thunderf00t/Comfort disscussion is up
« Reply #82 on: July 29, 2009, 09:26:38 PM »
I actually enjoyed all of these. All Comfort could say basically is "because God says so"
I like TF remark that our future is bright and we have growth in Knowledge, and Comfort (religion) is basically stopping that growth of knowledge.
Im thinking that someone here that is more educated on the bible should have a debate with Comfort.

Did anyone else notice the analogy Comfort gave that if a guy came into his house to rape his wife he would have a gun and use it to protect his wife??
Could it be that Comfort is here amoung us debating?  I remember a post about this almost the same?? :?
Or Im just speculating.
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Offline KNOX

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Re: Thunderf00t/Comfort disscussion is up
« Reply #83 on: July 29, 2009, 09:49:35 PM »
I thought he did pretty good.  What are his mistakes?  Did you notice comfort getting squirmy when he was talking about the lizards and aspeciation (sp?)?  Comfort said "That happens with people too."  Or something.

No matter how uneducated you prove Comfort to be, you can never refute his 'god created everything' nonsense or get him to admit it isn't proven.
I argue that Maths works because God invented it to keep everything in order.

Offline Hermes

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Re: Thunderf00t/Comfort disscussion is up
« Reply #84 on: July 30, 2009, 07:17:20 PM »
I don't think the whole conversation was a waste.  Should it have happened?  Probably not, yet TF was able to get a few solid responses from RC that I was not aware of before.  These can be used to deconstruct and pin RC and his fans in the future.

For example, here are a few good responses to the open discussion on the Atheist Experience blog;

Quote
Zurahn said...

    I think Thunderf00t took a bit too long getting to direct points and he was out of place trying to talk about issues with the Bible itself, but that didn't stop Ray sounding as ridiculous as always.

    The best points were these:

    Ray on forked speciation of salamanders, "That little frog's got an infertility problem"
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKJUnZRptIM#t=5m37s

    Thunderf00t: "Do you believe in demons?"
    Ray: "Of course"
    Thunderf00t: "Do you believe in sorcerors?"
    Ray: "Of course"
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FC8fuTfVWTg#t=4m38s

    Thunderf00t: "So who defines morality?"
    Ray: "God"
    Thunders00t: "Society plays no part in it?"
    Ray: "No"
    Thunderf00t: "... So if God says pedophelia is ok, then pedophelia is ok"
    Ray: "... I wouldn't go there"
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jauUjxWpcyc#t=9m0s

    But perhaps the best of all--or at least, the most startling--was Ray on speciation again,
    Ray: "Yeah, they just can't interbreed. If you do that with dogs, if you keep interbreeding dogs, there comes a point of time where they're so different they won't be able to breed. That's not proof of evolution."
    Thunderf00t: "That's speciation"
    Ray: "OK, there's such a thing as speciation"
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKJUnZRptIM#t=7m58s

    WTF Ray, W-T-F.
    7/26/2009 8:56 AM

Quote
Andrew said...

    I don't understand all the "Thunderf00t didn't hit it home" criticisms. I thought he went very in depth with the biological leash concept, the brain chemistry thing with criminals, and human psychology.

    As for the painter analogy, I don't know what else Thunderf00t could of said to refute that. I thought his refutation was sufficient. He pointed out how Ray only concludes a painting was created by a painter based on empirical observations, so he's making an inductive argument, while with the Universe having a creator there is no such empirical observation, so therefore the analogy fails.

    I think this whole discussion brought to light on why Ray Comfort is a believer. Because we can't create matter that therefore some higher power had to be there to create matter. Yeah, it's a really fucking shitty argument, but if anything this discussion at least got to the core of why he believes. It was meant to be a probing discussion, not a debate. I think people expecting some sort of debate are the ones who were disappointed by the discussion.

    He also got Ray on the divine command theory. Ray wasn't willing to go there because he knew he dug himself a hole with his line of argument. As Thunderf00t stated in the sidebar he saw a man full of doubt. I honestly think Ray's certainty is for show.
    7/27/2009 1:51 AM


Quote
Kaz Dragon said...

Though I'll admit it was difficult to dig through the stammering and general niceties, there were a number of mortal blows dealt by Thunderf00t.

...

The other killer blow was the Tod/God argument, I think. Frankly, I think when the difference was revealed to be "God is in a book," Thunderf00t could have stopped and declared victory there and then.

I also enjoyed some of the science presented as well. The psychology of authority figures, the concept of setting hazard to maximum and so on. Also the fork speciation was cool, which Ray was totally unable to grasp (hint: it's not an infertility problem if the salamander is able to mate with thousands of nearby salamanders).

...

I noticed two things from Ray. Whenever Thunderf00t made any assertion, Ray immediately said "you cannot know that." As science-loving people, we know the concept of provisional truth. But we also know the card Ray is playing: Thunderf00t's knowledge is limited because mankind is limited, Ray's knowledge is infinite because his god is infinite.

("Yeah, whatever.")

I think it may have been better for Thunderf00t to challenge Ray on that. After all, Ray can equally not be certain of his god, by the same rule. There is a possibility (!) that he is deluded, and that the stuff in the book is made-up.

The other thing that Ray harped on about is the inability of mankind to "create." That is, all we do is move bits around into new arrangements.

Well, perhaps someone should mention to Ray that the net energy of the universe is 0, and therefore it appears that his god can't create either (by the same rule).

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The Invisible Pink Unicorn said...

    In my opinion, there are only two kinds of creationists: the ignorant and the willfully ignorant. I would imagine that at one point Ray was ignorant. But think about this; he's written somewhere near 30 books, and has several hundred items for sale on his website. Also, he has had more evidence to crush creationism(especially for someone who claims to have spent every day of the last 37 years reading the bible)in the last 3 years than the average person gets in 20.

    The only way a debate with Ray Comfort can be successful is to study his arguments, watch the way he tries to snake out of said arguments, and construct counter-arguments that paint him into a corner. Then when he contradicts himself, point out the contradiction. Even then he won't admit defeat, if you can get him to slip up or unwittingly out himself and then shine a light on that, you have a much better chance in exposing him for the fraud he is.

    Think James Randi vs James Hydrick or Peter Popoff.
    7/27/2009 12:35 PM

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gfunkusarelius said...

    After trying to watch this, all i could think was "man, that the 'Attention, every atheist alive: Why aren't we ignoring Ray?' post was pretty dead-on."

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Valdemar said...

    The thing that comes to mind immediately having watched that last night was at the beginning, Ray trying to win a point by saying he "knew" what created the universe whereas Thunderf00t did not. I think it would have been easy for Thunderf00t to just say along the lines of "your definition of 'know' wouldn't meet the criteria of anything that we would consider knowledge" and continue along that, backing Ray into the "I know it because the Good Book says so" and then Ray has to go on full bullshitting mode.
    7/28/2009 3:25 AM
Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons. --Michael Shermer

The history of religion is a long attempt to reconcile old custom with new reason, to find a sound theory for an absurd practice.  --Sir James George Frazer

Offline Red McWilliams

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Re: Thunderf00t/Comfort disscussion is up
« Reply #85 on: July 30, 2009, 07:58:29 PM »
My problem with Thunderf00t's performance wasn't about the points he raised, but on his whole approach to the discussion.  With someone like Comfort, in a highly public setting like that, your focus has to be on exposing the flaws of the other person's position.  That's what debates are all about and why so many people can claim that creationists are so good at winning debates.  I think he went way too far with trying to showcase and build up his side.  He does that every day in his wonderful videos.  Sitting face to face with Ray Comfort is not the time to be doing that.

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Valdemar said...

    The thing that comes to mind immediately having watched that last night was at the beginning, Ray trying to win a point by saying he "knew" what created the universe whereas Thunderf00t did not. I think it would have been easy for Thunderf00t to just say along the lines of "your definition of 'know' wouldn't meet the criteria of anything that we would consider knowledge" and continue along that, backing Ray into the "I know it because the Good Book says so" and then Ray has to go on full bullshitting mode.
    7/28/2009 3:25 AM

Yes, Thunderf00t should have started calling Comfort's BS right there and not let up.  And when I say 'calling his BS' I mean literally saying "sorry, Ray, that's bullshit" and then explaining why.  That's what playing offense is all about and Thunderf00t didn't do nearly enough of it.
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