Author Topic: If you could take a moment... [#1616]  (Read 4261 times)

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Offline DL

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If you could take a moment... [#1616]
« on: July 21, 2009, 07:56:01 AM »
If you could take a moment, could you please tell me, in your own words, what is the TOP reason you are advocating atheism?

Don't get me wrong, if you prefer to call it something else, I apologize for incorrectly labeling you. However, it is obvious by your videos that you do not believe in a God of any kind. And, to my knowledge, aethism is the most commonly accepted term for that belief (or lack thereof).

I do not wish to start an arguement, a heated debate, or anything of the sort.
I would, however, like to know WHY you do what you do. Whatever the reason, I feel you owe it to me, as I have taken the time to watch your videos, and learned that you are, at least, an educated person. If you would like to prove that standing, to me, I would only accept that on the terms of an appropriate reply by you. I am going to give you that on the benefit of the doubt, and hope that you are at least courtesous enough to reply to this message

Thank you for your time, and I look foreward to reading your response.

Offline Hermes

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Re: If you could take a moment... [#1616]
« Reply #1 on: July 21, 2009, 08:37:58 AM »
If you could take a moment, could you please tell me, in your own words, what is the TOP reason you are advocating atheism?

Here's the answer I provide to similar questions from Christians;



I have noticed, as you may have as well, that there are Christians that do things in the name of Christianity that are negative.  Christians that promote bigotry and ignorance.  Christians that advocate actions that lead to harm and even death.  Christians that advocate not caring about this world and who want it to be destroyed in a polluted and fiery apocalypse.

If there were enough Christians that effectively dealt with those problems, I would not have any concerns.  Believe as you want.  As far as I would be concerned, the real world problems would be solved.

Unfortunately, that is not the world we are in.  Most Christians aren't doing nearly enough.   Many unfortunately are actively promoting these negative goals -- from paying money passively to going out and doing these negative actions themselves.  Some of the strongest advocates for those negative actions are the leaders and congregants of the larger Christian churches and organizations; this is not a problem with a few fringe groups or eccentric cult leaders.

Too many Christians not only do not take responsibility, they are leading the charge for these negative actions.  They justify bigotry and ignorance, they justify actions that result in the deaths of others that could be easily avoided.

As a responsible person, someone who cares about the world and the future of humanity, I have to act.  Even if it is not my fault that these Christians are doing harm, it is my responsibility to do something positive.  You can consider it a moral obligation.  If that means that I have to hold up a mirror so that my fellow humans look at what they believe, then I'll take that modest step.  Maybe that will be enough to drain the air out of some of those bad ideas?

My question to you is not what you believe, but what are you doing about the acts your fellow Christians perform in the name of Christianity that spread hate, bigotry, ignorance, pain, and death?
Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons. --Michael Shermer

The history of religion is a long attempt to reconcile old custom with new reason, to find a sound theory for an absurd practice.  --Sir James George Frazer

Offline Codswallop

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Re: If you could take a moment... [#1616]
« Reply #2 on: July 21, 2009, 08:41:28 AM »
Atheism is the default position, the null hypothesis, the starting point before people begin introducing theistic claims.

Atheism is not a thing.

Atheism is not a belief.

There is no single position known as "atheism." The only characteristic common to all atheists is they do not affirm a belief in any god.

I see nothing in the observed universe requiring a god to explain it. New evidence may one day come to light which contradicts this idea, but so far it has not. When people cite the wonder of the natural world as evidence for the existence of a god, they are making an emotional (and usually cultural) claim, not an objective one. I don't have a god simply because everything seems to work very well without one.

How's that?
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Offline deconvertedone

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Re: If you could take a moment... [#1616]
« Reply #3 on: July 21, 2009, 08:56:07 AM »
I don't advocate atheism, I advocate rational thinking.  I don't believe in the god of Abraham because the bible is so full of errors - it is not the inerrant word of god.  I don't know enough about other religions to comment on them, but from what I've seen so far they are nothing but myth created by man as well.

The memory of my own suffering has prevented me from ever shadowing one young soul with the superstition of the Christian religion.
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Offline Nam

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Re: If you could take a moment... [#1616]
« Reply #4 on: July 21, 2009, 01:30:11 PM »
I do not advocate atheism, nor as deconvertedone states above: rational thinking. Sometimes being and thinking irrational is a good thing; what I'm against is people forcing their beliefs or non-beliefs on others because they believe it's the right thing to do. It's not ever a right thing to do if "forcing" something on someone else is involved, no matter what it is.

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline Ambassador Pony

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Re: If you could take a moment... [#1616]
« Reply #5 on: July 21, 2009, 01:32:27 PM »
bm
You believe evolution and there is no evidence for that. Where is the fossil record of a half man half ape. I've only ever heard about it in reading.

Offline Dragnet

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Re: If you could take a moment... [#1616]
« Reply #6 on: July 21, 2009, 01:36:57 PM »
BM
I am responsible with my actions NOW so I don't HAVE to be responsible for them later.

Offline MadBunny

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Re: If you could take a moment... [#1616]
« Reply #7 on: July 22, 2009, 12:21:23 AM »
I'm an atheist, mainly because I am not a theist.

That's all it means.  Being an atheist does not mean that I'm angry at your god, or any other god.  I simply do not believe in it, for much the same reason I do not believe in Snarglepogs, or Invisible Golden Unicorns.  IF you are a theist, of a particular brand lets say: Christian, then you might believe in your god, but you don't believe in Snarglepogs, or Invisible Golden Unicorns.

If I were to rephrase your original question, and ask you exactly the samething, but substitute Snarglepog and ask you why you don't believe in them what would your answer be?

I look forward to conversing with you, please join up so we can continue.
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Offline William

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Re: If you could take a moment... [#1616]
« Reply #8 on: July 22, 2009, 01:50:50 AM »
If you could take a moment, could you please tell me, in your own words, what is the TOP reason you are advocating atheism?

In my opinion the "TOP reason" to advocate atheism is to enable the people of the world to have proper morality.

The problem is religious morality.  To eradicate religion we need to get at the root - irrational belief in deities.
 
Growth in atheism will have positive consequences for morals.  Just a few examples of what I mean:
  • Religious wars will cease.
  • "Ethnic" cleansing will diminish.
  • Women will be given the respect they deserve.
  • Animal rights and conservation will improve.
  • Human population will be managed for sustainability.
  • Anti-science propaganda will diminish.
  • Persecution of homosexuals will be relegated to history.
  • Suicide bombings will fall off a cliff.
  • Charities will focus on real good works instead of proselytizing and maintaining that there is a purpose for suffering.
Git mit uns

Offline Timtheskeptic

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Re: If you could take a moment... [#1616]
« Reply #9 on: July 22, 2009, 02:14:27 AM »
If you could take a moment, could you please tell me, in your own words, what is the TOP reason you are advocating atheism?

I don't advocate anything, especially not atheism. We just simply do not believe. Why should we advocate people to be an atheist? Only thing we do is give reasons, doubt, logical arguments on many subjects including the ludicrous claims of fairy tales being "True."

Quote
Don't get me wrong, if you prefer to call it something else, I apologize for incorrectly labeling you. However, it is obvious by your videos that you do not believe in a God of any kind. And, to my knowledge, aethism is the most commonly accepted term for that belief (or lack thereof).
No it wasn't. Atheists and non religious are a minority. Almost every culture has a religious belief. Though i dare say, intelligent people are rising and we'll hopefully see the end of religious bullshit.

Quote
I do not wish to start an arguement, a heated debate, or anything of the sort.
I would, however, like to know WHY you do what you do. Whatever the reason, I feel you owe it to me, as I have taken the time to watch your videos, and learned that you are, at least, an educated person.

I'm not doing anything but passing my knowledge of what i learned, and learning what i can learn about. I don't think i owe you anything. You chose to watch videos made by atheists and you agree that atheists are quite educated. Yes, we basically tell what we know, explain our reasoning behind all the religious beliefs, showing it as it is; false, harmful, and claims that are not supported.

Quote
If you would like to prove that standing, to me, I would only accept that on the terms of an appropriate reply by you. I am going to give you that on the benefit of the doubt, and hope that you are at least courtesous enough to reply to this message

Thank you for your time, and I look foreward to reading your response.

Prove what exactly? It is you and your religion that needs to prove its claims.
Me:What are you looking at Eminem?
Brother: Nothing, Harry Potter.

I love to read books, just not your Bible. i support gay rights and women's rights. Why? Because i'm tired of the hate, stupidity, and your desire to control us all and make up lies.

Offline SentnotPosted

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Re: If you could take a moment... [#1616]
« Reply #10 on: July 22, 2009, 05:32:00 PM »
In case you're wondering, I am the one who sent the message which was posted here.

Before I start, I would like to apologize to everyone.
I didn't know that the question I sent to the YouTube video posted was posted here, therefore, parts of the post, especially the longest paragraph, do not apply, and I didn't mean to cause any confusion.

If you could take a moment, could you please tell me, in your own words, what is the TOP reason you are advocating atheism?

Here's the answer I provide to similar questions from Christians;
First, I'd like to state that I never said I'm a Christian.



I have noticed, as you may have as well, that there are Christians that do things in the name of Christianity that are negative.  Christians that promote bigotry and ignorance.  Christians that advocate actions that lead to harm and even death.  Christians that advocate not caring about this world and who want it to be destroyed in a polluted and fiery apocalypse.

If there were enough Christians that effectively dealt with those problems, I would not have any concerns.  Believe as you want.  As far as I would be concerned, the real world problems would be solved.

Unfortunately, that is not the world we are in.  Most Christians aren't doing nearly enough.   Many unfortunately are actively promoting these negative goals -- from paying money passively to going out and doing these negative actions themselves.  Some of the strongest advocates for those negative actions are the leaders and congregants of the larger Christian churches and organizations; this is not a problem with a few fringe groups or eccentric cult leaders.

Too many Christians not only do not take responsibility, they are leading the charge for these negative actions.  They justify bigotry and ignorance, they justify actions that result in the deaths of others that could be easily avoided.
That isn't actually an answer to my question.
I'll say this, though.  Looking into it myself, I have realized that many Christians have done things "in the name of Christianity" that were inherently "bad".  However, I have also noticed that most, if not all, other religions have had radicals that did things "in the name of [insert religeon here]", but that doesn't mean that everyone of the religion believe that.

My question to you is not what you believe, but what are you doing about the acts your fellow Christians perform in the name of Christianity that spread hate, bigotry, ignorance, pain, and death?
Again, I never said I am a Christian, so saying my "fellow Christians" does not apply.

EDIT:  I apologize for the quote-mess, I am not used to this forum's style.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2009, 05:44:49 PM by SentnotPosted »

Online Emily

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Re: If you could take a moment... [#1616]
« Reply #11 on: July 22, 2009, 05:34:15 PM »
If you are not a christian what are you? Do you follow any religion?
"Great moments are born from great opportunities." Herb Brooks

I edit a lot of my posts. The reason being it to add content or to correct grammar/wording. All edits to remove wording get a strike through through the wording.

Offline SentnotPosted

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Re: If you could take a moment... [#1616]
« Reply #12 on: July 22, 2009, 05:37:29 PM »
Atheism is the default position, the null hypothesis, the starting point before people begin introducing theistic claims.

Atheism is not a thing.

Atheism is not a belief.

There is no single position known as "atheism." The only characteristic common to all atheists is they do not affirm a belief in any god.
Bringing this to your attention:
Don't get me wrong, if you prefer to call it something else, I apologize for incorrectly labeling you. However, it is obvious by your videos that you do not believe in a God of any kind. And, to my knowledge, aethism is the most commonly accepted term for that belief (or lack thereof).


I see nothing in the observed universe requiring a god to explain it. New evidence may one day come to light which contradicts this idea, but so far it has not. When people cite the wonder of the natural world as evidence for the existence of a god, they are making an emotional (and usually cultural) claim, not an objective one. I don't have a god simply because everything seems to work very well without one.

How's that?
Thank you for actually answering the question.
I would like to point out that all in science swore the earth was flat, and it turned out to be round.  It swore the center of the universe was earth, then the sun, and both were wrong.  It swore an atom was the smallest particle, then it disproved that.  Now that the big thing is the "Big Bang", but who's to say it isn't true?  I'm not saying how it was created, I'm just saying it's still just a theory, and therefore not proven true.
No, I am not saying all scientests believed these things, but it was the generally accepted theories at their respective times, and that is what I am baseing this post off of.
Just as few disagreed with those theories, there are few scientists today that believe in "creation-evolution" (the term varies) and many who fight strongly on both sides.

Offline SentnotPosted

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Re: If you could take a moment... [#1616]
« Reply #13 on: July 22, 2009, 05:40:00 PM »
I do not advocate atheism, nor as deconvertedone states above: rational thinking. Sometimes being and thinking irrational is a good thing; what I'm against is people forcing their beliefs or non-beliefs on others because they believe it's the right thing to do. It's not ever a right thing to do if "forcing" something on someone else is involved, no matter what it is.

-Nam


I completely agree.  However, I also see that many of those who try to "force their religion" are not only Christians, but every religion, and although they do it "for their religion" those who follow those practices are not generally supported by the followers of "their religion".

Offline HAL

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Re: If you could take a moment... [#1616]
« Reply #14 on: July 22, 2009, 05:44:23 PM »
I would like to point out that all in science swore the earth was flat, and it turned out to be round.  It swore the center of the universe was earth, then the sun, and both were wrong.  It swore an atom was the smallest particle, then it disproved that.  Now that the big thing is the "Big Bang", but who's to say it isn't true?  I'm not saying how it was created, I'm just saying it's still just a theory, and therefore not proven true.

Do you see what happens? Science is self-correcting. The truth will always come out in the end. This is not the case with religion, because it despises critical thinking.

Offline SentnotPosted

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Re: If you could take a moment... [#1616]
« Reply #15 on: July 22, 2009, 05:48:07 PM »
Growth in atheism will have positive consequences for morals.  Just a few examples of what I mean:
  • Religious wars will cease.
  • "Ethnic" cleansing will diminish.
  • Women will be given the respect they deserve.
  • Animal rights and conservation will improve.
  • Human population will be managed for sustainability.
  • Anti-science propaganda will diminish.
  • Persecution of homosexuals will be relegated to history.
  • Suicide bombings will fall off a cliff.
  • Charities will focus on real good works instead of proselytizing and maintaining that there is a purpose for suffering.

As far as I know, not all religions are inherently responsible for any of that stuff, but rather have fallen into it like so much of the world today.  However, there are still religions out there which still try to better the world out there.  Again, as far as I know.  However, I doubt there is anyone out there who can disprove this, as it would be virtually impossible to become such an expert on EVERY religion....

Offline Azdgari

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Re: If you could take a moment... [#1616]
« Reply #16 on: July 22, 2009, 05:48:19 PM »
First, I'd like to state that I never said I'm a Christian.

The video specifically addresses Christians.  If you are not a Christian, then the video does not directly address you.  Since you responded to the video, Hermes supposed - reasonably - that you were a Christian.  Most of those who respond to the videos are Christian.

By the way, I may have missed it, but as far as I can tell you have not yet specifically said you aren't a Christian.  Are you?

EDIT again:  You responded during my edit.  And addressed the text I inserted, no less.   :)
« Last Edit: July 22, 2009, 05:56:51 PM by Azdgari »
I have not encountered any mechanical malfunctioning in my spirit.  It works every single time I need it to.

Offline SentnotPosted

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Re: If you could take a moment... [#1616]
« Reply #17 on: July 22, 2009, 05:53:41 PM »
@Timtheskeptic:

1: I never said all atheists are educated.  Just like any selection of people, there can be smart and stupid all accepted.
2: "intelligent people are rising and we'll hopefully see the end of religious bulls**t."  Two points:  Your hostility shows your lack of maturity, and don't you know that almost every critically acclaimed scientist for the last thousand years or so has had some kind of religious background?
3: Perhaps prove wasn't the right word, I simply wanted a definite answer as to why you (or, as I have since learned, the many people on the forum where it was posted) do not believe in God.

Offline SentnotPosted

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Re: If you could take a moment... [#1616]
« Reply #18 on: July 22, 2009, 05:55:49 PM »
If you are not a christian what are you? Do you follow any religion?
First, I'd like to state that I never said I'm a Christian.

The video specifically addresses Christians.  If you are not a Christian, then the video does not directly address you.

If you must know, I was raised a Christian, but I have since started to question....
I was simply trying to broaden my understanding of religion in general.

Although the videos (not video, plural) says "Christian" they could all be applied to any religion that believes in God.

Offline MadBunny

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Re: If you could take a moment... [#1616]
« Reply #19 on: July 22, 2009, 05:59:08 PM »
In case you're wondering, I am the one who sent the message which was posted here.

Welcome to the forum.

You appear to be surprised at the replies to your letter.  Many are, who don't see the disclaimer that the letter will be reposted for response.  On the plus side of things, you can get an actual response to your letter instead of a generic auto-reply.
Give a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a night.  Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

Offline SentnotPosted

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Re: If you could take a moment... [#1616]
« Reply #20 on: July 22, 2009, 05:59:54 PM »
I would like to point out that all in science swore the earth was flat, and it turned out to be round.  It swore the center of the universe was earth, then the sun, and both were wrong.  It swore an atom was the smallest particle, then it disproved that.  Now that the big thing is the "Big Bang", but who's to say it isn't true?  I'm not saying how it was created, I'm just saying it's still just a theory, and therefore not proven true.

Do you see what happens? Science is self-correcting. The truth will always come out in the end. This is not the case with religion, because it despises critical thinking.

Science is "self-correcting", as you put it, because it is always being changed.
Religion is does not react to criticism at all, it is set in stone (err... religious books) and it is the people who represent it that despise criticsm.  However, I'm sure if the ideas of religion and science could talk to eachother, they would find that they have more in common than those who represent them try to believe... and instead of fighting, no matter if one was "right" or not, they would work together for the better good....
Well, that's how I see it anyway... xD

Offline Azdgari

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Re: If you could take a moment... [#1616]
« Reply #21 on: July 22, 2009, 06:02:04 PM »
What are these things that you believe they have in common?
I have not encountered any mechanical malfunctioning in my spirit.  It works every single time I need it to.

Offline SentnotPosted

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Re: If you could take a moment... [#1616]
« Reply #22 on: July 22, 2009, 06:02:51 PM »
By the way, I may have missed it, but as far as I can tell you have not yet specifically said you aren't a Christian.  Are you?

EDIT again:  You responded during my edit.  And addressed the text I inserted, no less.   :)

Sorry, there were a lot of posts, and I tried getting to them one at a time.

In case you're wondering, I am the one who sent the message which was posted here.

Welcome to the forum.


Thanks for the welcome!  :)

Offline HAL

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Re: If you could take a moment... [#1616]
« Reply #23 on: July 22, 2009, 06:06:29 PM »
Science is "self-correcting", as you put it, because it is always being changed.

No it isn't. What on Earth are you talking about? Science is a process. The scientific process doesn't change. The results of scientific investigation will improve due due advancements in technology that enable us to investigate finer and finer details of matter, but science does not change sir.

Offline SentnotPosted

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Re: If you could take a moment... [#1616]
« Reply #24 on: July 22, 2009, 06:07:50 PM »
What are these things that you believe they have in common?

As far as I see it, most religions (not the people who "represent them" but the actual ideals of the religions themselves) aspire for the "greater good" of humankind, albeit usually through some kind of ordeal.  Science does this also, though in different ways.
IE: Christianity: God flooded the earth, killing many, but in order to make the best people survive and make the world a better place... (also, saving the animals, @william: "Animal rights and conservation will improve.")
IE: Science:  We nuked Japan to end the war.  They killed plenty of people, but were intended to end wars and save lives (in the example of the end of WWII) even if that isn't the case with nukes now....

Offline SentnotPosted

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Re: If you could take a moment... [#1616]
« Reply #25 on: July 22, 2009, 06:10:59 PM »
Science is "self-correcting", as you put it, because it is always being changed.

No it isn't. What on Earth are you talking about? Science is a process. The scientific process doesn't change. The results of scientific investigation will improve due due advancements in technology that enable us to investigate finer and finer details of matter, but science does not change sir.

I mean we thought the earth was flat, then that CHANGED to a belief that it is round.  We thought that the Earth was the center of the universe, then that CHANGED to the sun, then that CHANGED to, what, we still don't know.  We thought the atom was the smallest, then that CHANGED to the electron, then that CHANGED to antimatter and everything we found inside an atom.

Sorry if I put it in terms you don't agree with, but what I meant you have already agreed with me upon.  Different terminology does not mean either of us are wrong.

Offline HAL

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Re: If you could take a moment... [#1616]
« Reply #26 on: July 22, 2009, 06:14:59 PM »

Sorry if I put it in terms you don't agree with, but what I meant you have already agreed with me upon.  Different terminology does not mean either of us are wrong.


Yes it does. It means you are wrong. Terminology is very important, becasue if you don't adhere to accurate terminology, then we won't have a very productive conversation.

Do you know the difference between an agreed upon fact and the process that determined that fact (It doesn't sound like you do)?

Offline Seank

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Re: If you could take a moment... [#1616]
« Reply #27 on: July 22, 2009, 06:19:14 PM »
Science and religion have little in common. We do need to separate methodology from the output. The basic methodology of science remains constant, and it applies to all the sciences. Theories may change or be discarded, but the methodology remains the same.

The basic methodology of religion is faith without the need for evidence. The output of religion can alter over time, but as with science, the methodology remains constant.

There is a vague kind of similarity there, but it's a purely structural thing that ignores the actual workings of the components. Scientific methodology has obviously changed over time, but as it stands right now any alteration would likely mean that it's no-longer science.
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Offline Hermes

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Re: If you could take a moment... [#1616]
« Reply #28 on: July 22, 2009, 06:20:22 PM »
SentnotPosted, welcome to the forums.  Thanks for dropping by.

If you could take a moment, could you please tell me, in your own words, what is the TOP reason you are advocating atheism?

Here's the answer I provide to similar questions from Christians;
First, I'd like to state that I never said I'm a Christian.

Got it.  That's part of the reason for my comment that only referenced other people, not you specifically, as Christians.  Till you let me know, I did not assume anything about your religious point of view.



I have noticed, as you may have as well, that there are Christians that do things in the name of Christianity that are negative.  Christians that promote bigotry and ignorance.  Christians that advocate actions that lead to harm and even death.  Christians that advocate not caring about this world and who want it to be destroyed in a polluted and fiery apocalypse.

If there were enough Christians that effectively dealt with those problems, I would not have any concerns.  Believe as you want.  As far as I would be concerned, the real world problems would be solved.

Unfortunately, that is not the world we are in.  Most Christians aren't doing nearly enough.   Many unfortunately are actively promoting these negative goals -- from paying money passively to going out and doing these negative actions themselves.  Some of the strongest advocates for those negative actions are the leaders and congregants of the larger Christian churches and organizations; this is not a problem with a few fringe groups or eccentric cult leaders.

Too many Christians not only do not take responsibility, they are leading the charge for these negative actions.  They justify bigotry and ignorance, they justify actions that result in the deaths of others that could be easily avoided.

That isn't actually an answer to my question.

You asked for my top reason.  This is actually the reason, and it's not explicitly for advocating atheism as it is to deal with problems caused by Christians by multiple levels.

I'll say this, though.  Looking into it myself, I have realized that many Christians have done things "in the name of Christianity" that were inherently "bad".  However, I have also noticed that most, if not all, other religions have had radicals that did things "in the name of [insert religeon here]", but that doesn't mean that everyone of the religion believe that.

Of course.  The letter I wrote isn't to a Muslim or a Hindu or some other group.  I'm also not asking the Christians to do something about the group of all theists either, or the acts of people who happen to be Christians not performed in the name of their religious group.

EDIT:  I apologize for the quote-mess, I am not used to this forum's style.

Looks good to me.
Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons. --Michael Shermer

The history of religion is a long attempt to reconcile old custom with new reason, to find a sound theory for an absurd practice.  --Sir James George Frazer