Author Topic: Why And When God Heals People  (Read 8278 times)

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Chaplain

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Why And When God Heals People
« on: July 19, 2009, 07:58:37 AM »
First a little personal story.  I have faith enough for people to be healed in my ministry so when people say "well they weren't healed because you didn't have enough faith" I get just a little bit perturbed. I believe that the Bible is the inspired Word of God and its truths are certain and true.  But I'm also a realist when it comes to application of those truths to the world.

I can't tell you how many times I've said to God.  "How about just once when I go to the bed side of a sick and dying person and pray in Jesus name they are actually healed immediatly?"  The resurrection is the way that most Christians justify the person getting sicker and sicker and dying.  Of course the resurrection is a form of healing in which one's body is restored to its perfect and healed state.  But I believe that's not proper biblical exegesis. Just once in the many times I've done those prayers for people I want them to jump out of bed and say "God touched me and I'm healed let's go home".  Now I'm not a cynic, and I have plenty of testimonies about answers to healing prayers.  It happens all the time. I'm just saying its always been long distance for me and the success rate percentages are usually much less than 50 percent.

So here is what I have determined from reading scriptures and how it is applied to today's world.  The power of miraculous healing is not designed to be a health care plan for Christians. Besides, I've heard of God healing unbelievers at times of other healing miracles happening to all kinds of people.  God's miraculous healing is not a way to undo all the damage we do to our own bodies and our environment on a general basis.  Are people healed who have lived a sinful and self damaging life?  Of course some are but its certainly not the majority of the time. And it doesn't mean that if you aren't healed that your somehow less of a person or that you necessarily are lacking in faith.

So the question is: What is the reason for God healing if it isn't simply to make people healthy for their own sake. The answer according to the scriptures is very clear.  The healing powers (and other miracles) of Jesus Christ and its application for today is to give clear evidence of the authority of Jesus Christ as to who he said he was and who we believe him to be.  God in the flesh and the creator and author of all things. Its not about us, its about who God is and God's authority. To look at it any other way is sinful and selfish of us. Healing is not a perk for being a Christian.

What I'm about to say is something most people don't want to acknowledge because its too hard for them to swallow.  If you look into it most of the greatest strides forward of Christianity in the world have come not because somebody was healed, but because somebody was martyred.  And some of the greatest testimonies of conversions have come from unbelievers who watched a Christian get sicker and sicker and die and do it with peace, assurance of what happens next, and even complete peace in their hearts.  Also people accept Christ many times because they run across those who not only have something to live for but something they are willing to die for also.  The greatest expansion to Christianity in the early days of the church was not the apostles going from city to city healing and preaching the "Good News" for that was only the seeds being planted.  The biggest expansion of Christianity came about because of the forums in which Christians were fed to the lions.  We don't want to think about that because so many people want Christianity to be a premium life and health care plan when it isn't.

So why doesn't God replace amputated legs?  See previous posting.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2009, 08:08:08 AM by Chaplain »

Offline HAL

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Re: Why And When God Heals People
« Reply #1 on: July 19, 2009, 08:02:33 AM »
People accept Christ many times because they run across those who not only have something to live for but something they are willing to die for also. 

So you accept Islam is true also?

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Re: Why And When God Heals People
« Reply #2 on: July 19, 2009, 08:12:04 AM »
Quote
I've heard of God healing unbelievers and all kinds of other healing miracles that happen to all kinds of people.

You mean you've heard of people getting better coinciding with other people uttering magic spells to their specific deity.

That happens all the time. People see a correlation, and assume causation. Those conclusions are usually coloured by their learning history, in this case religious inculcation. The human brain is wired up for this.
You believe evolution and there is no evidence for that. Where is the fossil record of a half man half ape. I've only ever heard about it in reading.

Offline JeffPT

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Re: Why And When God Heals People
« Reply #3 on: July 19, 2009, 09:32:13 AM »

I can't tell you how many times I've said to God.  "How about just once when I go to the bed side of a sick and dying person and pray in Jesus name they are actually healed immediatly?"  The resurrection is the way that most Christians justify the person getting sicker and sicker and dying.  Of course the resurrection is a form of healing in which one's body is restored to its perfect and healed state.  But I believe that's not proper biblical exegesis. Just once in the many times I've done those prayers for people I want them to jump out of bed and say "God touched me and I'm healed let's go home".  Now I'm not a cynic, and I have plenty of testimonies about answers to healing prayers.  It happens all the time. I'm just saying its always been long distance for me and the success rate percentages are usually much less than 50 percent.


If God were real, healings would happen like you desire them to.  If prayers were answered, people would jump out of bed screaming God touched them.  And guess what? God would have a LOT more believers, including me.  The fact that it does not happen like you want it to, is not evidence that it works differently than you think. It is evidence that he is not up there in the first place.  Your entire post is just your mind doing mental gymnastics to make up an excuse for God's ineptitude.  You are trying to fit a square peg into a round hole, all the while the truth is staring you in the face.  Square pegs don't fit in round holes, no matter how much you try to excuse them for it. 

Sick people get better and worse all the time.  The fact that someone was being prayed for does not mean that they were healed from the prayer, anymore than a person who rubs peanut butter on an open wound and finds it miraculously healed the next week can say that the peanut butter was the reason for the healing.  There is no statistical advantage to being prayed for.  None.  Also, isn't it a bit egotistical to ask God to heal someone, when it was God who allowed them to have their problem in the first place?  If you think God can heal someone, and you know God sees all things, then you can safely assume that God knew that person was going to get sick in the first place, right?  And the fact that he did nothing to stop it means that it is God's will that the person gets sick.  Why would God listen to your prayer if it was his will that allowed the person to get sick in the first place?  God stood by and did nothing while the person GOT sick.  Why do you think he would want to fix it, if he didn't step in already to stop it?  Isn't your prayer just asking God to change his mind to suit yourself?  Why would a perfect God EVER need to change his mind to suit OUR wishes?  Oh the ego. 

So here is what I have determined from reading scriptures and how it is applied to today's world.  The power of miraculous healing is not designed to be a health care plan for Christians. Besides, I've heard of God healing unbelievers at times of other healing miracles happening to all kinds of people.  God's miraculous healing is not a way to undo all the damage we do to our own bodies and our environment on a general basis.  Are people healed who have lived a sinful and self damaging life?  Of course some are but its certainly not the majority of the time. And it doesn't mean that if you aren't healed that your somehow less of a person or that you necessarily are lacking in faith.

The scriptures are man made books.  They are not from God.  You should read some biblical history to get a real feel for what early Christianity was like, and how much of the original scriptures we actually have.  Anyway... you are just proving my point here.  Look at what you are doing.  You are trying to explain why there is no advantage (in terms of healing) to being a believer.  You RECOGNIZE this, yet you can't see where it really leads you.  Believers and unbelievers get better and worse all the time.  Hell, even the pope has health problems.  People who lead a sinful life are healed just as much as people who don't.  There is no benefit (in terms of healing) between being a Christian, a Muslim, a Hindu or an atheist.  Stop trying to rationalize it.  Square peg, round hole.  By FAR the better explanation is... all gods are fake.  The world makes MUCH more sense from a healing perspective if this is true. 

So the question is: What is the reason for God healing if it isn't simply to make people healthy for their own sake. The answer according to the scriptures is very clear.  The healing powers (and other miracles) of Jesus Christ and its application for today is to give clear evidence of the authority of Jesus Christ as to who he said he was and who we believe him to be.  God in the flesh and the creator and author of all things. Its not about us, its about who God is and God's authority. To look at it any other way is sinful and selfish of us. Healing is not a perk for being a Christian.

God doesn't heal people.  People heal people.  Medicine heals people.  Prayer gives no statistical advantage.  Jesus had no healing powers.  He was a man.  A wise and interesting man. A Jewish, apocalyptic preacher.  That's it.  If God is the author of all things, as you say, then he is the author of cancer, Alzheimer's, starvation, disease, plagues, and all sorts of fun loving things.  He deserves as much blame for the bad things as he deserves credit for fixing them.  In your book, he should get credit for all of it.  You won't say that though.  I am sure "sin and the fall of man" will creep into it, but is it really just for God to punish ALL men for the sins of our ancestors?  Would you like to be punished for something your great-great-great grandmother did?  No, that's just stupid.  I don't blame God for a single thing, because the whole thing is fake, and you KNOW it makes more sense logically to think that way.  If you take your religion out of the equation, you don't need to make your excuses. The world looks as if there is no God.  People get sick and healed as if there were no God.  You just can't see it.  Faith has blinded you to the much simpler answer.

What I'm about to say is something most people don't want to acknowledge because its too hard for them to swallow.  If you look into it most of the greatest strides forward of Christianity in the world have come not because somebody was healed, but because somebody was martyred.  And some of the greatest testimonies of conversions have come from unbelievers who watched a Christian get sicker and sicker and die and do it with peace, assurance of what happens next, and even complete peace in their hearts.  Also people accept Christ many times because they run across those who not only have something to live for but something they are willing to die for also.  The greatest expansion to Christianity in the early days of the church was not the apostles going from city to city healing and preaching the "Good News" for that was only the seeds being planted.  The biggest expansion of Christianity came about because of the forums in which Christians were fed to the lions.  We don't want to think about that because so many people want Christianity to be a premium life and health care plan when it isn't.


So you are saying death and suffering and being fed to lions led people TOWARD God?  That these things are good things.  I'm sorry, but you can keep that to yourself.  I would never, ever want to be part of something where the most powerful being in the universe can't find something better than suffering and death to spread his word.  Think about what you are saying here.  This is the mentality that drives planes into buildings.  Martyrdom holds a lot of power because people think to themselves, "well if that person is willing to die for their belief, then they must be right."  Could God not come up with a better system of spreading his word more rapidly than feeding his biggest fans to the lions?  Please... use your head.  Can you think of any other religions where people are willing to die for their God?  A better question might be, can you think of any religions where people will NOT give up their lives in defense of it?  Willingness to die for a belief in a god does NOT mean that the particular god is real.  It only equates to a deeper delusion. 

People accept Christ for hundreds of reasons.  Sometimes they have a traumatic event in their life.  Sometimes they start dating someone religious who leads them that direction.  Sometimes they just want to think there is a heaven.  MANY times it is because they were born into a specific region with a specific religion with religious parents who indoctrinated them, and nobody ever told them both sides of the coin.   But these reasons are the same for every religion ever invented by man.  Christianity is no different.  You don't have the monopoly on this stuff.  All religions have these same problems you have.  Why do people suffer and die?  In your God driven universe, you have to come up with (really poor) excuses to explain this.  Don't think it's a poor excuse?  Original sin is probably the dumbest idea to explain suffering ever invented.  All of humanity punished horribly over thousands of years because the first 2 fools ate an apple, when they were told not to?  Laughable.  Without God, suffering is a natural part of life.  We are an imperfect animal species on an ever changing planet.  Sometimes we suffer, sometimes we don't.  No need for the gymnastics. 

It's all fake.  All of it.  You don't have to struggle with the questions you have if you just simply acknowledge the fact that the world really looks like there is no God in play.  You do this with every other God ever invented by man.  So do I.  Why can't you see that the same reasons you and I both dismiss the other Gods are the same reasons I dismiss yours? 
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Offline William

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Re: Why And When God Heals People
« Reply #4 on: July 19, 2009, 09:51:40 AM »
Now I'm not a cynic, and I have plenty of testimonies about answers to healing prayers.  It happens all the time. I'm just saying its always been long distance for me and the success rate percentages are usually much less than 50 percent.

Chaplain, please share some details of the success stories with us.
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Re: Why And When God Heals People
« Reply #5 on: July 19, 2009, 10:00:28 AM »
First a little personal story.  I have faith enough for people to be healed in my ministry so when people say "well they weren't healed because you didn't have enough faith" I get just a little bit perturbed. I believe that the Bible is the inspired Word of God and its truths are certain and true.  But I'm also a realist when it comes to application of those truths to the world.
Which I would read as "I know that God doesn't do what is promised and I have excuses for it".  I also would read this as you think your interpretation of the bible is what God "really meant".  
Quote
I can't tell you how many times I've said to God.  "How about just once when I go to the bed side of a sick and dying person and pray in Jesus name they are actually healed immediatly?"  The resurrection is the way that most Christians justify the person getting sicker and sicker and dying.  Of course the resurrection is a form of healing in which one's body is restored to its perfect and healed state.  But I believe that's not proper biblical exegesis. Just once in the many times I've done those prayers for people I want them to jump out of bed and say "God touched me and I'm healed let's go home".  Now I'm not a cynic, and I have plenty of testimonies about answers to healing prayers.  It happens all the time. I'm just saying its always been long distance for me and the success rate percentages are usually much less than 50 percent.
Can you tell me why you think your version is the correct one?  
Quote
So here is what I have determined from reading scriptures and how it is applied to today's world.  The power of miraculous healing is not designed to be a health care plan for Christians. Besides, I've heard of God healing unbelievers at times of other healing miracles happening to all kinds of people.  God's miraculous healing is not a way to undo all the damage we do to our own bodies and our environment on a general basis.  Are people healed who have lived a sinful and self damaging life?  Of course some are but its certainly not the majority of the time. And it doesn't mean that if you aren't healed that your somehow less of a person or that you necessarily are lacking in faith.
So, why does your bible say that the church elders can heal?  Why did Jesus say that his followers could do miracles like him and even better? Your argument is a common one.  Why does God do such hit and miss miracles? Seems he is no better than the jug of milk.  
Quote
So the question is: What is the reason for God healing if it isn't simply to make people healthy for their own sake. The answer according to the scriptures is very clear.  The healing powers (and other miracles) of Jesus Christ and its application for today is to give clear evidence of the authority of Jesus Christ as to who he said he was and who we believe him to be.  God in the flesh and the creator and author of all things. Its not about us, its about who God is and God's authority. To look at it any other way is sinful and selfish of us. Healing is not a perk for being a Christian.
So, God needs miracles to get faith?  Funny how many of your fellow Christians say you are wrong.  Again you seem to think your versin is the right one without having any more evidence of this than any other theist.
Quote
What I'm about to say is something most people don't want to acknowledge because its too hard for them to swallow.  If you look into it most of the greatest strides forward of Christianity in the world have come not because somebody was healed, but because somebody was martyred.  And some of the greatest testimonies of conversions have come from unbelievers who watched a Christian get sicker and sicker and die and do it with peace, assurance of what happens next, and even complete peace in their hearts.  Also people accept Christ many times because they run across those who not only have something to live for but something they are willing to die for also.  The greatest expansion to Christianity in the early days of the church was not the apostles going from city to city healing and preaching the "Good News" for that was only the seeds being planted.  The biggest expansion of Christianity came about because of the forums in which Christians were fed to the lions.  We don't want to think about that because so many people want Christianity to be a premium life and health care plan when it isn't.
So why doesn't God replace amputated legs?  See previous posting.
One can see someoen being martyred.  Since there are evidenntly no witnessed healings, of course martydoms are much more believed as "evidence" for God's existence.  people would like to believe that there had to be some "reason" that someone allowed themselves to be killed or to die, other than delusion or self-aggrandizement.  But as we often see, people do stupid things for exactly those reasons.  You might want to also do some reasearch on your supposed martyrs. There isn't much evidence for many of them.  The Romans don't seem to be the horrible people that early Christians liked to claim when the actual evidence is looked at, and not just Christian propaganda.    
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Re: Why And When God Heals People
« Reply #6 on: July 19, 2009, 10:18:47 AM »
All I read was blah blah blah. And then after that: blah blah blah.

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Offline thegodiknew

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Re: Why And When God Heals People
« Reply #7 on: July 19, 2009, 12:02:33 PM »
It is fascinating to read your posts. I know exactly where you are coming from. That firm belief in the Truth you have dedicated your life to (I was a missionary for 20+ years), and all the evidence that somehow it doesn't quite work like you expect, and all the excuses why, the compulsion to let God off the hook for not fulfilling his promises. And having to point to things like "peace" and "joy" as spectacular evidence of promise fulfillment.

As I read your posts I can't help you are here with deep questions about the disconnects you are describing in the Faith.

I encourage you to step back and read your own posts from a position outside the Faith - just as a thought experiment - and see if you see what I see.

All the best on your journey.
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Re: Why And When God Heals People
« Reply #8 on: July 19, 2009, 04:38:45 PM »
So why doesn't God replace amputated legs?  See previous posting.
nice segway.

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Re: Why And When God Heals People
« Reply #9 on: July 19, 2009, 04:52:11 PM »
So why doesn't God replace amputated legs?  See previous posting.
nice segway.
just to clarify things, I have a feeling that Chaplain doesn't understand circular logic.

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Re: Why And When God Heals People
« Reply #10 on: July 20, 2009, 09:54:32 AM »
So why doesn't God replace amputated legs?  See previous posting.
nice segway.

nah, THIS is a nice segway: http://www.segs4vets.org/  And it's done by humans who don't need an excuse for not helping their fellow man. 

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Re: Why And When God Heals People
« Reply #11 on: July 20, 2009, 07:02:13 PM »
geesh... it was a segway to circular logic that Chaplain eluded to.

Offline MadBunny

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Re: Why And When God Heals People
« Reply #12 on: July 22, 2009, 06:27:46 PM »
Welcome to the forum Chaplain.
I suspect you are in for a rough ride after that initial post.

I do have to say, I was pleasantly surprised by it.
None of the usual apologetics about not having enough faith, or free will or any of that.


I do have a couple of basic questions though, if it isn't too much trouble.

1) You say God heals Christians and Non-Christians alike.  Statistically we do in fact see recovery rates stay the same regardless of religion.  People of all religions (exceptions may exist) pray for recovery, and all of them so far as I know have supposed success stories, but they are just as statistically in line with yours.

First question is: How do you know it is your god doing the healing rather than someone elses god?


2) You say that people do in fact get healed, but on Gods own terms.

Second Question: Is prayer effective at all?  Can man effect a change in the plan via prayer.

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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Why And When God Heals People
« Reply #13 on: July 23, 2009, 04:44:10 AM »
.....the success rate percentages are usually much less than 50 percent.....

So faith/prayer healings work LESS than half the time?  LESS than what might be expected by chance?

Better stop praying....you're making people worse....!
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
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Re: Why And When God Heals People
« Reply #14 on: July 23, 2009, 05:16:21 AM »
Hello Chaplain, welcome to the forum.

Have you considered that God isn't behind the healing? That the less than 50% success rate is because people are able to fight out what is wrong with them? Or medical science has saved them? Also modern hygiene. Without what we know your success rate would be even lower. Because we know that it is not smell that makes you ill but germs, we're able to be much more hygienic. If the black plague came back a lot more people would survive and medical science and hygiene is also why flu epidemics haven't been as bad as they could have been. It is not God's mercy that saves people, it's their immune systems, the strength of disease bacteria and medicine.


But have you ever asked yourself, why does God have it that way? He requires us to suffer (even to a horrific degree) and continue to worship him, yet thank him each time he cuts one of us a break, why would a benevolent God get people's hopes up by saying, "I'll answer all of your prayers" and leave them to find out that he only answers the ones he feels like answering? Why would a benevolent God do the things he did in the Old Testament and why does he offer a terrible fate for non-believers? Why is his solution extreme, yet is meant to be benevolent and omnipotent? To me that says he is either horrid or weak. With the power of creation and healing, I don't see how he can be weak, so he must be malevolent.

As humanity has developed we've better ourselves morally, medically and technologically, we have expanded our knowledge of how the world works greatly and applied it to saving lives, to helping people - it's medical science that helps amputees and it is becoming clearer and clearer that there is no God to protect us from the cruel world he was supposed to have created. Whilst we can't save everyone and can't grow limbs back, we're doing more than God ever did, if he ever existed at all. On the moral front, whilst there's a horrible world out there, there are a lot of good people doing something about it, I'm sure you've read the bible and know what kind of immoral ways of 'solving things' He has, mauling children, murdering first borns, drowning people, murdering families, destroying civilisations, burning people, stoning them to death, enslaving them, rape and pillage and the list goes on. Then he tries to tell us that he's loving. If he really changed in the New Testament, then he hasn't changed enough, look at the world, it still doesn't show a benevolent God and look at Revelations and see the fate we non-believers has, are you really convinced that the God you believe in is good? And do your really trust that this God is willing to heal all of those you pray for?

It may seem harsh and I can see that you're a caring person, and we need caring people, but it seems you, like many others, have it wrong about the God of the bible and are blind to see that if he really does exist, then he is neither good nor loving.
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Re: Why And When God Heals People
« Reply #15 on: July 23, 2009, 06:52:05 AM »
Seppuku, an excellent post.

It made me think - what is the Christian god actually for?  What benefits and problems does he give to his worshippers?

From most of what I hear - and this OP in particular - it seems that the benefits of belief on earth are very few.  Or, rather, that there is nothing one gets as a believer in Yahweh that one would not get to the same degree from belief in the comfort of Allah, or Osiris, or in Machester United.  The benefits of belief here seem to be psychological in the forms of peace and happiness and a sense of community - all things that you can get from any faith (or from none).  God - any god - seems to deliberately NOT intercede in a physical and practical way, so there is no benefit in belief in the "I will be healed if I pray" or "I will get a good job if I pray".

So the benefits of belief in any particular god are only received on death, when one goes to punishment or reward.  But - and here's the twin rubs - because of the one true god's (whichever it may be) inability or unwillingness to prove its existence through answered prayers, it is purely down to chance and guesswork and luck whether you choose the correct path.

Which means that god (whichever it may be) deliberately created a place of punishment to bring suffering to people for making the wrong choice, while simultaneously ensuring that it was impossible to be sure of what the right choice actually is.

And so I echo Seppuku's question: are you really convinced that the God you believe in is good?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

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Re: Why And When God Heals People
« Reply #16 on: July 23, 2009, 04:47:15 PM »
This one looks like a drive-by. The OP hasn't been back since...
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Re: Why And When God Heals People
« Reply #17 on: July 23, 2009, 05:16:18 PM »
This one looks like a drive-by. The OP hasn't been back since...

What a shame.  I liked the honest perpective and willingness to accept real world numbers.
This poster seems like he/she might be an intelligent person, who can speak to us in a rational way unlike so many of the bizarre fundies that seem to cluster to the forums.

Give a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a night.  Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

Offline kevyrat69

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Re: Why And When God Heals People
« Reply #18 on: August 30, 2009, 01:48:06 AM »
So Chaplain, this would all clear up if you came over to The dark side buhahahahhaha
http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/

whatever people are experiencing when they experience God, it's not something they're perceiving in the external world. It's something their brains are making up.
Greta Christina

Offline RaptorJesus

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Re: Why And When God Heals People
« Reply #19 on: August 30, 2009, 02:00:26 AM »
So Chaplain, this would all clear up if you came over to The dark side buhahahahhaha


*snicker*
Jamie: I understanding these things [SCUBA tanks] have about a million—or actually, it's 1.3 million—pounds of explosive force. I'm not sure what that means, but it sounds like a lot.

Offline coatofmanycolors

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Re: Why And When God Heals People
« Reply #20 on: August 31, 2009, 02:16:52 AM »
Chaplain, please share some details of the success stories with us.

A blind teenager (blind from birth) healed instantaneously when David Wilkerson prayed for him.  It was at a crusade (not a healing crusade like you see on tv with Benny Hinn) where my grandfather was translating for Wilkerson in Portuguese.  The reason I use this example is it was an instantaneous, unambiguous response to a simple prayer of faith. 

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Why And When God Heals People
« Reply #21 on: August 31, 2009, 02:19:08 AM »
Is there evidence for this claim, coatofmanycolors?  What was the condition that caused him to be blind?

Simply put, how do any of us know that what you cite is true?
The highest moral human authority is copied by our Gandhi neurons through observation.

Offline coatofmanycolors

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Re: Why And When God Heals People
« Reply #22 on: August 31, 2009, 02:34:31 AM »
Is there evidence for this claim, coatofmanycolors?  What was the condition that caused him to be blind?

Simply put, how do any of us know that what you cite is true?

I don't.  Unfortunately, this happened before my birth, so there was no opportunity for me specifically to be a first-hand witness.  Although, I was quite close with my grandfather and I'm familiar with many other things that did happen in his ministry both in Brazil and here in the United States.

My point isn't to provide you with "proof", although, if I had some, I would be more than happy to share it with you.  There are several cases of doctors in Brazil having radical conversion experiences because of unexplained miraculous healings that have happened spontaneously in a crusade after one of their patients was prayed for.


Offline Ambassador Pony

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Re: Why And When God Heals People
« Reply #23 on: August 31, 2009, 08:36:19 AM »
There are many "cases" of little grey aliens abducting americans and conducting anal probing experiments.

People believe all sorts of ridiculous things, regardless of status and education.

Evidence. When there is non of it, you're probably wrong.   

You believe evolution and there is no evidence for that. Where is the fossil record of a half man half ape. I've only ever heard about it in reading.

Offline coatofmanycolors

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Re: Why And When God Heals People
« Reply #24 on: August 31, 2009, 10:00:21 AM »
There are many "cases" of little grey aliens abducting americans and conducting anal probing experiments.

People believe all sorts of ridiculous things, regardless of status and education.

Evidence. When there is non of it, you're probably wrong.   

I think the example of a doctor converting because of a miraculous healing in one of their patients is quite different from your example.  To the doctor, the fact that someone under their care receives spontaneous healing is "evidence" that at least something currently unexplainable (in their mind) has happened.   

Offline MadBunny

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Re: Why And When God Heals People
« Reply #25 on: August 31, 2009, 01:01:18 PM »
There are many "cases" of little grey aliens abducting americans and conducting anal probing experiments.

People believe all sorts of ridiculous things, regardless of status and education.

Evidence. When there is non of it, you're probably wrong.   

http://www.histories-mysteries.com/index.php/mystery/49-a-ufo-almost-triggered-a-nuclear-launch

There is probably more anecdotal evidence of aliens' existence than a great many things we take as 'true'.
The article I linked is some guy who was supposedly in charge of one of the nuclear missiles the US has on standby.  Just to reiterate so CoatOfManyColors catches it NUCLEAR MISSILES, so this was a pretty responsible guy.

The reason we can't take this stuff seriously is because there isn't any evidence for it.  Just a whole crapload of anecdotal stuff.  Why is it that space ships never land on the white house lawn, or float around like in the movie district 9, or for that matter just sit still long enough for some regular news stations to photograph them?
Give a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a night.  Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

Offline coatofmanycolors

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Re: Why And When God Heals People
« Reply #26 on: August 31, 2009, 02:15:31 PM »
Just to reiterate so CoatOfManyColors catches it NUCLEAR MISSILES, so this was a pretty responsible guy.

No need to reiterate, but I still think the comparison is different on many levels.

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Why And When God Heals People
« Reply #27 on: August 31, 2009, 02:17:59 PM »
Does one of those levels involve your desire to believe the story?
The highest moral human authority is copied by our Gandhi neurons through observation.

Offline coatofmanycolors

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Re: Why And When God Heals People
« Reply #28 on: August 31, 2009, 02:44:34 PM »
Does one of those levels involve your desire to believe the story?

Well, let's take me out of the example, and let's say we're talking about a doctor who witnesses one of the patients in their care miraculously and spontaneously healed from a condition after being prayed for in faith (blindness for the sake of the example, but many other conditions could be substituted).

I think that doctor, given the relationship and intimate knowledge of the patient, is going to place a higher degree of certainty or trust in a patient's testimony, or even what they themselves witness that simply hearing about someone being healed, correct?

So, yes, I do place a higher degree of trust in some sources than others, we all do mainly because there is too much data out there for us to be able to personally filter it all.  

It may not form the basis for believing (rarely does a single event form that basis), but it maybe the "evidence" someone needs to start a deeper inquiry.

« Last Edit: August 31, 2009, 03:19:01 PM by coatofmanycolors »