Author Topic: Why And When God Heals People  (Read 8307 times)

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Offline MadBunny

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Re: Why And When God Heals People
« Reply #58 on: December 02, 2009, 06:19:02 PM »
In what way is the god that you describe any different than no god at all?
Give a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a night.  Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

Offline pied piper

Re: Why And When God Heals People
« Reply #59 on: December 02, 2009, 06:29:21 PM »
Mad Bunny,  I feel that there is a compelling force guiding me through life. 

Velkyn, As I replied to your post in another thread, I believe that the cells in our bodies are also ruled by God We have the ability to make suggestions to the cells of our bodies just as the greater being of which we are a part has the ability to make suggestions to us.  In the end, we, and our cells have free will, though.  When we treat our cells in a respectful manner, they are inclined to function well for us.

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Why And When God Heals People
« Reply #60 on: December 02, 2009, 06:31:06 PM »
Mad Bunny,  I feel that there is a compelling force guiding me through life.

Do you consider yourself not to be a compelling force guiding your life?
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Offline Ambassador Pony

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Re: Why And When God Heals People
« Reply #61 on: December 02, 2009, 06:31:22 PM »
So, your feelings.

[/thread]

thanks Madbunny, for clearing it up by initiating that succint Q&A.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2009, 09:00:54 PM by Ambassador Pony »
You believe evolution and there is no evidence for that. Where is the fossil record of a half man half ape. I've only ever heard about it in reading.

Offline MadBunny

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Re: Why And When God Heals People
« Reply #62 on: December 02, 2009, 09:19:08 PM »
Mad Bunny,  I feel that there is a compelling force guiding me through life. 

I don't understand, can you please elaborate on this?
I see earlier in the thread that you're arguing a deist viewpoint on god, which is fine, but this reply doesn't explain how there is a difference between god and no-god.
Give a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a night.  Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Why And When God Heals People
« Reply #63 on: December 03, 2009, 05:29:34 AM »
I assert that those who don't beleive in God at all beleive that there are scientifict laws which rule the universe.  What is the difference?   Something rules the universe, whatever you choose to call it! 

What is the difference?  There is a HUGE difference, when you couple it with your claim that

Quote from: pied piper
Healing takes a strong focused attentive belief, especially from the person being healed.  The people more that believe in the success of the healing, the more likely that the healing will take place.

If scientific laws rule the universe, it makes no difference whether I belive in them or not - they will still work.  YOUR claim is that this god-thing that rules the universe activates healing ONLY when enough people "believe" it will happen - an entirely different thing.

Imagine you had claimed that gravity only works because people believe in it, or electricity, or thermodynamics.  Or that spectacles only work because people believe they will, or hearing aids, or chemotherapy.  You would, quite rightly, be laughed at, long and hard. 

So your unsupported claim that "there is a god that heals ONLY when believed in" is in any way analogous to "scientific laws" is also quite laughable.  You cannot prove the claim of healing, you cannot even prove there is a "god" - which is why you try to insist that we all believe the same thing really.

I repeat: how nice it must be to be able to assert things that have no proof.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline velkyn

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Re: Why And When God Heals People
« Reply #64 on: December 03, 2009, 10:04:57 AM »
Velkyn, As I replied to your post in another thread, I believe that the cells in our bodies are also ruled by God We have the ability to make suggestions to the cells of our bodies just as the greater being of which we are a part has the ability to make suggestions to us.  In the end, we, and our cells have free will, though.  When we treat our cells in a respectful manner, they are inclined to function well for us.

You believe, so what?  Can you show any evidence that your god does anything you have claimed or your claim of we can "suggest" things to our cells?  Why can't I suggest that my cells can survive on carbon monoxide? Ah, let me guess, you want to limit it to the things that science has shown are simply impossible. How nicely convenient!  And again, where are those medical records of the supposed healings you claim? 

I find it hilarious that you want to claim that our cells have "free will".  Prove it.  I have seen people who have lived very healthly, very mind fun and their cells killed them, thanks to cancer, etc.  Why didn't thinking pretty thoughts help them? 

Really, your nonsense claims are ridiculous and rather pathetic to read.  You claim to have magically suspended your belief in god, with the implication that you can magically turn it back on again.  Just how is that accomplished, PP?  If your god is such a truth, how can you ignore that? 

There may be a day when "everyone believes" but I doubt it.  I've seen threats like this again and again, little playground feet-stompings that "I'll be right, you'll see!"
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Offline pied piper

Re: Why And When God Heals People
« Reply #65 on: December 03, 2009, 06:13:01 PM »
Isn't a cancer cell a rogue cell?  How does a cell go rogue?  What is the difference between a cell that has been exposed to carcinogens and develops cancer, one that has been exposed to carcinogens and doesnt develop cancer, and one that is not exposed to carcinogens and develops cancer?  Science can't explain it right now and may never be able to completely explain it.  It was speculated that once the human genome project was complete, we would discover the reasons for this.  It has been complete for some years now, but we still don't understand how genes for anything are turned on/off.  It has been found that proteins bind to the DNA causing a gene to be turned on or off.  This is referred to as the epigenome.  Research has shown that attentive mothering results in a non-diseased offspring in mice(from what I recall), while inattentive mothering results in many different disease genes to be turned on.  These mice had the very same circumstances otherwise.  We know for a fact that stress supresses immune response and getting a good night sleep, eating a healthy diet, and moderate activity help humans to resist disease.  It is isn't that difficult to see that when we treat our bodies with respect, they respond in a positive manner.
  I have not always felt that I know God exists.  Most of my life, I have had a feeling, but was looking for a way to logically justify it in my mind.  I confess that there are many moments while on this messageboard that I honestly  question my belief.  There are many intelligent people here with lots of valid arguements, many that I had never thought of.  The most difficult arguement for me to reconcile was that utopia can exist without a God.  While I think that it is true that we can live in a wonderful world by simply having positive interactions with people, it is my belief that at the root of this is something that has been placed in all of us telling us which things are positive and which things are not.  I don't claim to have any answers for everyone, or to have all of the answers for anyone.  I know that there were many pieces of the puzzle missing for me and several things happened to cause me to conclude that there is a God.  The included: a writing assignment regarding the source of my moral compass, a friend's brother having medical, emotional, and relationship difficulties, a histology and embryology course, a course including curriculum on particle physics.  I found mapping out where I obtained my morals from to be a very difficult undertaking.  I concluded that at the foundation was "the golden rule."  I wondered if this is something that we are taught or something that we are born with.  After contemplating it for weeks, I determined that we are born with this principle and we are taught behaviors that are contrary to it.  I have heard the arguements that this is a result of evolution, in that we would not survive as a species if we did not posess this principle.  I disagree.  I find that it is the lack of this very principle that puts our species (and others) at risk for extinction.
I am not afraid to suspend my belief in God.  I know that if there is a God, I will find Him again if I lose him and that He wants me to sincerely believe in Him.  When I have the courage to question my beliefs out of logical reason, I'm sure that I will eventually find the truth.  If the truth is that there is no God, why would I be disappointed then? 

Offline velkyn

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Re: Why And When God Heals People
« Reply #66 on: December 04, 2009, 09:51:44 AM »
Isn't a cancer cell a rogue cell?  How does a cell go rogue?  What is the difference between a cell that has been exposed to carcinogens and develops cancer, one that has been exposed to carcinogens and doesnt develop cancer, and one that is not exposed to carcinogens and develops cancer?  Science can't explain it right now and may never be able to completely explain it. 
Oh here we go, the old claim that "I'm right because I claim that people will never (or maybe never) will figure it out so my ludicrous claim must be the right one."
Quote
It was speculated that once the human genome project was complete, we would discover the reasons for this.  It has been complete for some years now, but we still don't understand how genes for anything are turned on/off.
  Yep, it was speculated.  Do you know what speculated means?  Evidently not.  " 1 a : to meditate on or ponder a subject : reflect b : to review something idly or casually and often inconclusively" merriam-webster.com.  So what if it was speculated? And scientists are doing research even now to figure things out, which again doesn't mean they never will figure it out or that your nonsense is even remotely right. 
Quote
It has been found that proteins bind to the DNA causing a gene to be turned on or off.  This is referred to as the epigenome.  Research has shown that attentive mothering results in a non-diseased offspring in mice(from what I recall), while inattentive mothering results in many different disease genes to be turned on.  These mice had the very same circumstances otherwise.  We know for a fact that stress supresses immune response and getting a good night sleep, eating a healthy diet, and moderate activity help humans to resist disease.  It is isn't that difficult to see that when we treat our bodies with respect, they respond in a positive manner.
Where is this research?  Have a link?  And how does any of this support your claims that cells are beings?  That they can be communicated with?  There is precious little evidence that "positive thinking" can help medical problems, though they can help people feel better emotionally, a far cry from healing a tumor, etc: http://www.livescience.com/health/080829-happy-thoughts.html http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/10/23/2066862.htm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/475128.stm
and the guilt and grief that such claims cause, that "if only I got Wayne to people who could have told him the magic forumula for thinking positive thoughts, he would have survived" is sad: http://www.humansideofcancer.com/chapter2/chapter.2.htm
Quote
I have not always felt that I know God exists.  Most of my life, I have had a feeling, but was looking for a way to logically justify it in my mind.
Yep, like any other theist.  Humans seem to be wired to want a "reason" why things happen.  If they can imagine a magical more powerful "human" that's a great answer to them. This "god" does things for reasons they can understand.  It's a fairly recent thing, it seems that humans, now having the scientific method, have declared that their gods to be much less human and must more inscrutable to excuse their impotence.
Quote
I confess that there are many moments while on this messageboard that I honestly  question my belief.  There are many intelligent people here with lots of valid arguements, many that I had never thought of.  The most difficult arguement for me to reconcile was that utopia can exist without a God.  While I think that it is true that we can live in a wonderful world by simply having positive interactions with people, it is my belief that at the root of this is something that has been placed in all of us telling us which things are positive and which things are not.
 
Again, it's only a belief, a fairly common one but one with no evidence, other than evolution seems to have favored the tendency to work together in humans.
Quote
I don't claim to have any answers for everyone, or to have all of the answers for anyone.  I know that there were many pieces of the puzzle missing for me and several things happened to cause me to conclude that there is a God.  The included: a writing assignment regarding the source of my moral compass, a friend's brother having medical, emotional, and relationship difficulties, a histology and embryology course, a course including curriculum on particle physics.  I found mapping out where I obtained my morals from to be a very difficult undertaking.  I concluded that at the foundation was "the golden rule."  I wondered if this is something that we are taught or something that we are born with.  After contemplating it for weeks, I determined that we are born with this principle and we are taught behaviors that are contrary to it.  I have heard the arguements that this is a result of evolution, in that we would not survive as a species if we did not posess this principle.  I disagree.  I find that it is the lack of this very principle that puts our species (and others) at risk for extinction.
All of which have had the exact opposite effect on other people.  And consider your claim that we are born with the "golden rule".  If so, why do no feral children evince this?  And then you say, after you claim that we are born with this thing, that we dont' have it since you say "it is the lack of this principle that puts our species at risk".  Which is it? Are we born with it or not? 
Quote
I am not afraid to suspend my belief in God.  I know that if there is a God, I will find Him again if I lose him and that He wants me to sincerely believe in Him.  When I have the courage to question my beliefs out of logical reason, I'm sure that I will eventually find the truth.  If the truth is that there is no God, why would I be disappointed then? 
The question wasn't if you were afraid, the question was how can you do it?  I can't simply turn off my trust in the scientific method.  The reason I find that many theists are afraid to consider no god is that they have wrapped up a lot of their self-worth in beleiving that they are special in that they have the attentions of a magical omnipotent being.  Another reason is that they are simply afraid of death, and they want a foot in the pearly gates. 
"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

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Offline pied piper

Re: Why And When God Heals People
« Reply #67 on: December 04, 2009, 07:20:27 PM »
Mad Bunny,  I feel that there is a compelling force guiding me through life.

Do you consider yourself not to be a compelling force guiding your life?

I'm not positive, but I often have conflicting compelling factors.  They don't necessarily pull me in just two directions, but there is always a clear right choice, whether I acknowledge it or not.

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Why And When God Heals People
« Reply #68 on: December 04, 2009, 07:22:57 PM »
How is that different from a situation without a god, then?  That was the context of your initial comment.
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Offline Zankuu

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Re: Why And When God Heals People
« Reply #69 on: December 05, 2009, 04:47:12 PM »
I'm not positive, but I often have conflicting compelling factors.  They don't necessarily pull me in just two directions, but there is always a clear right choice, whether I acknowledge it or not.

So do you view the world in black and white? There is always a clear correct choice and an obviously incorrect one? I make choices everyday, some serious, some not so. I decided to choose between cereal and a hotpocket this morning. There was no "clear right choice". Plus, those weren't my only two options, I simply limited myself to those two. I live in a world of grey.

Edit: Ugh, scatterbrained post.
Leave nothing to chance. Overlook nothing. Combine contradictory observations. Allow yourself enough time. -Hippocrates of Cos

Offline MadBunny

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Re: Why And When God Heals People
« Reply #70 on: December 05, 2009, 06:50:19 PM »
Mad Bunny,  I feel that there is a compelling force guiding me through life.

Do you consider yourself not to be a compelling force guiding your life?

I'm not positive, but I often have conflicting compelling factors.  They don't necessarily pull me in just two directions, but there is always a clear right choice, whether I acknowledge it or not.

I'm not sure I understand fully what you mean.
For one thing, this in no way implies that there is any difference between god/no god.

Out of curiosity, how to you deal with a moral dilemma where all choices are equally bad/good.
Give a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a night.  Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

Offline pied piper

Re: Why And When God Heals People
« Reply #71 on: December 05, 2009, 10:25:20 PM »
If scientific laws rule the universe, it makes no difference whether I belive in them or not - they will still work.  YOUR claim is that this god-thing that rules the universe activates healing ONLY when enough people "believe" it will happen - an entirely different thing.

Imagine you had claimed that gravity only works because people believe in it, or electricity, or thermodynamics.  Or that spectacles only work because people believe they will, or hearing aids, or chemotherapy.  You would, quite rightly, be laughed at, long and hard. 

So your unsupported claim that "there is a god that heals ONLY when believed in" is in any way analogous to "scientific laws" is also quite laughable.  You cannot prove the claim of healing, you cannot even prove there is a "god" - which is why you try to insist that we all believe the same thing really.

I repeat: how nice it must be to be able to assert things that have no proof.
I want to begin with the statement that all scientist assert things without proof.  They then go forward and test their assertion.  It is only when they present it for publication that the assertion is compiled with observations in order to come to a conclusion. 
Do you have to believe in photons for radiation therapy to work?  They are also a theoretical entity, in case you didn't know.

None of these things that are used presently for improving our lives would exist if no one ever persisted in their belief in their idea.  Just as chemotherapy uses chemicals, spiritual healing uses spirit, which is belief.

A relationship with God is very personal, this is why no one can point to something to prove their is a God.  Each person needs to make his/her own assertions/questions, experiment, observations, and conclusions. 

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Why And When God Heals People
« Reply #72 on: December 05, 2009, 10:38:32 PM »
PP, it would be nice if you made it clear not only to whom you are responding, but also which words are their as opposed to yours.
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Offline velkyn

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Re: Why And When God Heals People
« Reply #73 on: December 06, 2009, 08:54:12 PM »

None of these things that are used presently for improving our lives would exist if no one ever persisted in their belief in their idea.  Just as chemotherapy uses chemicals, spiritual healing uses spirit, which is belief.
one important difference, we see that chemotherapy works. 

Quote
A relationship with God is very personal, this is why no one can point to something to prove their is a God.  Each person needs to make his/her own assertions/questions, experiment, observations, and conclusions. 
Ah, the "relationship" argument.  However, this doesnt' make much sense if your God is indeed the same one every Christian claims as it must be.  To claim that everyone gets their "own" answer begs the question of what happens when your supposed "one true" God gives contradictory answers and you have no more evidence that your version is what God "really meant" than anyone else. 
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Offline Azdgari

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Re: Why And When God Heals People
« Reply #74 on: December 06, 2009, 10:21:30 PM »
A better explanation would be that PP has a relationship with another aspect of his own mind.
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Why And When God Heals People
« Reply #75 on: December 07, 2009, 08:28:37 AM »
Quote from: Anfauglir
If scientific laws rule the universe, it makes no difference whether I belive in them or not - they will still work.  YOUR claim is that this god-thing that rules the universe activates healing ONLY when enough people "believe" it will happen - an entirely different thing.

Imagine you had claimed that gravity only works because people believe in it, or electricity, or thermodynamics.  Or that spectacles only work because people believe they will, or hearing aids, or chemotherapy.  You would, quite rightly, be laughed at, long and hard. 

So your unsupported claim that "there is a god that heals ONLY when believed in" is in any way analogous to "scientific laws" is also quite laughable.  You cannot prove the claim of healing, you cannot even prove there is a "god" - which is why you try to insist that we all believe the same thing really.

I repeat: how nice it must be to be able to assert things that have no proof.
I want to begin with the statement that all scientist assert things without proof.  They then go forward and test their assertion.  It is only when they present it for publication that the assertion is compiled with observations in order to come to a conclusion. 
Do you have to believe in photons for radiation therapy to work?  They are also a theoretical entity, in case you didn't know.

None of these things that are used presently for improving our lives would exist if no one ever persisted in their belief in their idea.  Just as chemotherapy uses chemicals, spiritual healing uses spirit, which is belief.

A relationship with God is very personal, this is why no one can point to something to prove their is a God.  Each person needs to make his/her own assertions/questions, experiment, observations, and conclusions. 

Ah - but don't stray away from what you actually said:

Quote from: pied piper
The people more that believe in the success of the healing, the more likely that the healing will take place.
- asserting that "divine healing" depends on belief, and also that there was NO DIFFERENCE between a universe runs along "mindless" scientific laws, and one run by an interested and actively interventionist god.

Point being, if we forgot everything we knew about the science behind chemotherapy, say, and just knew enough to press the button on the drug dispenser, we would still see it work.  Knowledge of the process, or belief in the process, would not in itself affect the results.

However, there is an admitted placebo effect - and I would suggest that your statement about "belief in healing" is no different to that.  God is nothing more than a placebo that makes people feel better.

But you are right - you HAVE no evidence or proof for your hypothesis that there is a god.  And the scientists you quote above would discount the god-hypothesis when they discovered that two people with the same conditions, and the same belief in god, experienced dramatically different results.

Although - to be fair - they may amend their hypothesis to "there may be a god, but we have no idea how he decides who to help and who to ignore, or what he wants, or anything solid about him" - which, frankly, is no different from saying "we have no clue what is going on".  Certainly, it does not point to any kind of fair, just, or loving god.

And why would anyone choose yo follow an unfair, unjust, and malicious god, other than for self-interest?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
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Offline RaymondKHessel

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Re: Why And When God Heals People
« Reply #76 on: December 21, 2009, 02:26:02 PM »
anal probing adventure of galactic proportions

That could totally be the name of a George Clinton record.
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Offline kevyrat69

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Re: Why And When God Heals People
« Reply #77 on: January 03, 2010, 06:17:32 PM »
Velkyn, As I replied to your post in another thread, I believe that the cells in our bodies are also ruled by God We have the ability to make suggestions to the cells of our bodies just as the greater being of which we are a part has the ability to make suggestions to us.

WTF :o

This statement is insane pp.  You are a smart man and the only thing you are using your brain for is crap like this.  What a waste of thought.  I cannot see how you can think such a stupid thing with your brains and come on to a atheist site to tell us this ridiculous crap :?

If I became a theist, would I have to believe this and say stupid idiotic things like this!!!????

Go find your logical thinking brains and then think about your statement then come back to us. &)


« Last Edit: January 03, 2010, 06:23:52 PM by kevyrat69 »
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Offline Odin

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Re: Why And When God Heals People
« Reply #78 on: January 04, 2010, 08:24:19 PM »
Isn't a cancer cell a rogue cell?  How does a cell go rogue?  What is the difference between a cell that has been exposed to carcinogens and develops cancer, one that has been exposed to carcinogens and doesnt develop cancer, and one that is not exposed to carcinogens and develops cancer?  Science can't explain it right now and may never be able to completely explain it.

Because science can't explain it doesn't mean, therefore, it's god.  There are too many variables to explain it. 

One possible explanation has to do with statistics.  Some percentage of cells exposed to carcinogens will develop cancer, some percentage of cancers will go into spontaneous remission, some percentage of cancers will be handled by the body's normal defenses, and some percentage of normal cells will  develop cancer. 

god only appears to heal cancers because the causes of those healings are ambiguous, and could have many sources.  god never heals amputees, because the causes of those healing are unambiguous, and everyone would be able to tell the sources. 

Quote
Mad Bunny,  I feel that there is a compelling force guiding me through life. 

Is this not the very definition of delusion?  If I said, "I feel that a small, flying cherub made of spaghetti guides me through life," would you not consider me to be quite mad?

Odin, King of the Gods


Offline SherB

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Re: Why And When God Heals People
« Reply #79 on: January 27, 2010, 02:05:47 AM »
God can't heal amputees right now because God is a collaboration.  God is greater than we are because he is composed of those that let him live through their lives.  Healing takes a strong focused attentive belief, especially from the person being healed.  The people more that believe in the success of the healing, the more likely that the healing will take place.  God can heal all wounds, including amputations, but to heal all wounds and take away all bad things requires the universal (meaning everyone must take part) belief in God.

Is it OK if I break in with a point/question regarding healing? I read of a study rcently---and I have no proof and no axe to grind---that some people may be able to 'heal' themselves in a way that could appear supernatural. Anyway, they did functional MRI's on them when they were meditating or 'praying' or whatever , and found that their brainwaves did some things the researchers hadn't seen before. (Of course, fMRI's are pretty new.).
I personally think that some physical problems can be improved by the application of the unconscious mind, for lack of a better term. Which seems to me could be seen as a supernatural force, which it isn't. Of course, that could only work for the individual himself, not anyone else, and obviously wouldn't work on much of anything that could really be proven one way or the other. I have had some success at dealing with chronic pain through meditation, but I don't believe that means that there is or isn't a God. Just that the human mind can do some very interesting thinggs, and throughout history, my gyess is rhhat this is where some of the claims have come for God healing people. Just my two cents.  ---SherB
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Why And When God Heals People
« Reply #80 on: January 27, 2010, 05:37:03 AM »
Just that the human mind can do some very interesting thinggs, and throughout history, my gyess is rhhat this is where some of the claims have come for God healing people. Just my two cents.  ---SherB

Yeah, I'd agree with that.  Placebos clearly have an effect, so there must be SOME element of the mind assisting or impeding healing.  It's all chemical and biological messages, after all.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Gimpy

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Re: Why And When God Heals People
« Reply #81 on: January 27, 2010, 11:59:13 AM »
God can't heal amputees right now because God is a collaboration.  God is greater than we are because he is composed of those that let him live through their lives.  Healing takes a strong focused attentive belief, especially from the person being healed.  The people more that believe in the success of the healing, the more likely that the healing will take place.  God can heal all wounds, including amputations, but to heal all wounds and take away all bad things requires the universal (meaning everyone must take part) belief in God.

Is it OK if I break in with a point/question regarding healing? I read of a study rcently---and I have no proof and no axe to grind---that some people may be able to 'heal' themselves in a way that could appear supernatural. Anyway, they did functional MRI's on them when they were meditating or 'praying' or whatever , and found that their brainwaves did some things the researchers hadn't seen before. (Of course, fMRI's are pretty new.).
I personally think that some physical problems can be improved by the application of the unconscious mind, for lack of a better term. Which seems to me could be seen as a supernatural force, which it isn't. Of course, that could only work for the individual himself, not anyone else, and obviously wouldn't work on much of anything that could really be proven one way or the other. I have had some success at dealing with chronic pain through meditation, but I don't believe that means that there is or isn't a God. Just that the human mind can do some very interesting thinggs, and throughout history, my gyess is rhhat this is where some of the claims have come for God healing people. Just my two cents.  ---SherB

Biofeedback?
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Offline SherB

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Re: Why And When God Heals People
« Reply #82 on: January 27, 2010, 12:07:37 PM »
Biofeeback, yeah. That's a way to focus the power of the mind to affect a physical manifestation. And while it's certainly been scientifically proven that it works, there's a lot about it that still need to be studied. If you're interested in such things, check out some of the things they're doing with fMRI's. I saw a special on one of the science channels where by studying someone's brain waves, once they knew what to look for, they could accurately predict when people were lying. Quite big brother-ish but fascinating.   ---SherB
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Offline lectricpharaoh

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Re: Why And When God Heals People
« Reply #83 on: March 03, 2010, 04:54:15 PM »
God can't heal amputees right now because God is a collaboration.  God is greater than we are because he is composed of those that let him live through their lives.  Healing takes a strong focused attentive belief, especially from the person being healed.  The people more that believe in the success of the healing, the more likely that the healing will take place.  God can heal all wounds, including amputations, but to heal all wounds and take away all bad things requires the universal (meaning everyone must take part) belief in God.
Let me get this straight: God needs the belief of billions of people in order to do some grand miracle like curing disease for everyone on Earth, correct?

Yet a 'miracle' of much grander scope, the creation of not only Earth, but the sun, the rest of the solar system, and the rest of the universe was accomplished without the support of any believers?  Remember, we didn't exist when God started his creation efforts!

You can't have it both ways.

Isn't a cancer cell a rogue cell?  How does a cell go rogue?  What is the difference between a cell that has been exposed to carcinogens and develops cancer, one that has been exposed to carcinogens and doesnt develop cancer, and one that is not exposed to carcinogens and develops cancer?
There are numerous ways for a cancerous cell to come into being.  When cells replicate, the DNA needs to be copied.  This is not a flawless process, so spontaneous errors can arise, some of which result in a cancerous cell.  Other causes can be radiation from a number of sources and carcinogenic substances.  When you consider just how many cells there are in a human body, there are a great many opportunities for this situation to arise.  Of course, once a single cancerous cell arises, it tends to multiply rapidly, as this is the very nature of cancer.

Science can't explain it right now and may never be able to completely explain it.
This is only true if you mean that science can't explain with 100% certainty the origin of every cancer case in existence.  If someone smokes a pack of cigarettes every day for 40 years and then develops lung cancer, you might be inclined to blame the smoking for it, but it's possible that the smoking is not the cause.  After all, people who do not smoke develop lung cancer as well, so in the smoker, it could have been a genetic predisposition, a fluke, radiation from abusing the X-ray machine in med school, asbestos fibers, or any number of other causes.

The fact that it's uncertain does not lend credence to your idea of cells having free will (haha, that was a good one) or God existing.

We know for a fact that stress supresses immune response and getting a good night sleep, eating a healthy diet, and moderate activity help humans to resist disease.  It is isn't that difficult to see that when we treat our bodies with respect, they respond in a positive manner.
This has to do with meeting our biological needs, and nothing to do with 'free will' of our cells.

Tell me, if I have two bars of metal, and bend one back and forth multiple times until it is cracking while leaving the second one alone, are the molecules in the non-stressed bar 'thanking' me by still having strong bonds?  Your line of reasoning here is just laughable.

I found mapping out where I obtained my morals from to be a very difficult undertaking.
That's you.  The fact that you found it difficult does not support your belief in God.  I'm bad with directions, but this doesn't mean that God is guiding all the cabbies and bus drivers in the world.

I concluded that at the foundation was "the golden rule."  I wondered if this is something that we are taught or something that we are born with.  After contemplating it for weeks, I determined that we are born with this principle and we are taught behaviors that are contrary to it.  I have heard the arguements that this is a result of evolution, in that we would not survive as a species if we did not posess this principle.  I disagree.  I find that it is the lack of this very principle that puts our species (and others) at risk for extinction.
First you suggest the golden rule, then say you're aware of the arguments of how this altruism is beneficial from an evolutionary perspective, and then say that you disagree because we'd be at risk for extinction without it.  Huh?

If it's beneficial to the survival of the species, then that is perfectly consistent with evolution (or more precisely, natural selection).  As a beneficial trait, it would tend to be propagated through the gene pool.  How you use this to disagree with a natural basis for this trait and instead ascribe it a supernatural origin is beyond me.
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Offline GodIsDead

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Re: Why And When God Heals People
« Reply #84 on: March 03, 2010, 05:05:47 PM »
Everyone has such good points it's hard to say something that hasn't already been touched upon.

All I come back to.

God never answers prayers, because there is no god to answer prayers.

Sometimes people get better. Sometimes they don't. Also, some times for the sake of theatrics and money, people pretend to be blind, and then miraculously see again after some charlatan "lays hands on them" ... There is a reason they're call charlatans after all. 

But very interesting thread all around.
"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything." -- Friedrich Nietzsche

Offline dmnemaine

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Re: Why And When God Heals People
« Reply #85 on: March 03, 2010, 09:24:45 PM »
geesh... it was a segway to circular logic that Chaplain eluded to.

Hate to be picky, but the word is "segue". :) 

Offline ReasonIsOutToLunch

Re: Why And When God Heals People
« Reply #86 on: March 07, 2010, 12:50:30 AM »
geesh... it was a segway to circular logic that Chaplain eluded to.

Hate to be picky, but the word is "segue". :) 

Look, I don't care how you spell it, I want one.

God, doesn't know pi.