Author Topic: Why And When God Heals People  (Read 9306 times)

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Offline MadBunny

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Re: Why And When God Heals People
« Reply #29 on: August 31, 2009, 03:08:47 PM »
Does one of those levels involve your desire to believe the story?

let's say we're talking about a doctor who witnesses one of the patients in their care miraculously and spontaneously healed from a condition after being prayed for in faith (blindness for the sake of the example, but many other conditions could be substituted).
Right.  Like if an amputee suddenly got their limb back.  That would be a good example.


Quote
I think that doctor, given the relationship and intimate knowledge of the patient, is going to place a higher degree of certainty or trust in a patient's testimony, or even what they themselves witness that simply hearing about someone being healed, correct?
Here is the thing.  It wouldn't matter if he trusted the patient or not in this case as there would be ample evidence.
But for the sake of agreement, he might also trust the patient.


Quote
So, yes, I do place a higher degree of trust in some sources than others, we all do mainly because there is too much data out there for us to be able to personally censor it all. 

It may not form the basis for believing (rarely does a single event form that basis), but it maybe the "evidence" someone needs to start a deeper inquiry.
You are entirely correct.  It would not form the basis of believing, since it could have been caused by any number of things.  A child praying to Brahmin to cure somebodies amputation, Zeus coming back to make a big scene and throw a tantrum (again), or even the space aliens that the example in my link claims to have seen.

Sure SOMETHING significant would have happened, but figuring out what it was would be another question entirely.


Give a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a night.  Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

Offline Odin

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Re: Why And When God Heals People
« Reply #30 on: August 31, 2009, 07:40:16 PM »
What I'm about to say is something most people don't want to acknowledge because its too hard for them to swallow.  If you look into it most of the greatest strides forward of Christianity in the world have come not because somebody was healed, but because somebody was martyred.

You are right!  You are one sick f****r!

So, tell me.  If god can't or won't heal me, and I have to die and be martyred to find out what really will happen, then of what possible use to me is your god?   Because I can't figure it out.

Odin, King of the Gods
« Last Edit: December 08, 2009, 06:07:27 PM by Odin »

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Why And When God Heals People
« Reply #31 on: September 01, 2009, 05:27:26 AM »
My point isn't to provide you with "proof", although, if I had some, I would be more than happy to share it with you.  There are several cases of doctors in Brazil having radical conversion experiences because of unexplained miraculous healings that have happened spontaneously in a crusade after one of their patients was prayed for.

Hmm.  Now we've moved from a single alleged case of a cure (with no accompanying references or evidence) to "several cases" - equally without accompanying evidence or reference).

But regardless - many people in the world believe in "lucky underpants" or similar, because somthing good happened to them when they were wearing their pants.  Can you see the parallel with what you are describing?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Ambassador Pony

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Re: Why And When God Heals People
« Reply #32 on: September 01, 2009, 08:03:14 AM »
There are many "cases" of little grey aliens abducting americans and conducting anal probing experiments.

People believe all sorts of ridiculous things, regardless of status and education.

Evidence. When there is non of it, you're probably wrong.   

I think the example of a doctor converting because of a miraculous healing in one of their patients is quite different from your example.    

No, it's not. There is no abduction and no miraculous healing in the first place. Both assume the conclusion in how they are presented.

In the first instance, there is no abduction at all, just "missing time", later rationalized into an anal probing adventure of galactic proportions. In the healing example, there is only an improbable, and surprising (not impossible or without precedent) recovery from an illness perceived through a filter consistant with the cultural learning of the observer and labelled accordingly.

In every meaningful way the two examples are alike.

You believe evolution and there is no evidence for that. Where is the fossil record of a half man half ape. I've only ever heard about it in reading.

Offline coatofmanycolors

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Re: Why And When God Heals People
« Reply #33 on: September 01, 2009, 04:52:13 PM »
No, it's not. There is no abduction and no miraculous healing in the first place. Both assume the conclusion in how they are presented.

In the first instance, there is no abduction at all, just "missing time", later rationalized into an anal probing adventure of galactic proportions. In the healing example, there is only an improbable, and surprising (not impossible or without precedent) recovery from an illness perceived through a filter consistant with the cultural learning of the observer and labelled accordingly.

In every meaningful way the two examples are alike.

Absolutely not.  There are indeed ways in which they are similar, and ways in which they are vastly different.  You can find similarities in almost any comparison.  However, you must qualify your statement that "in every meaningful way to you", the examples are the same.

Offline coatofmanycolors

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Re: Why And When God Heals People
« Reply #34 on: September 01, 2009, 05:01:33 PM »
Hmm.  Now we've moved from a single alleged case of a cure (with no accompanying references or evidence) to "several cases" - equally without accompanying evidence or reference).

I'm personally aware of 2 very specifically, and I also know there were others with which I am not aware of all the particulars.  I'm not here to provide you with evidence that will satisfy you (as that would be impossible short of witnessing an amputee grow a limb in a conditioned experiment :) ), I'm simply providing an example I'm aware of that illustrates an observed spontaneous and instantaneous healing resulting after prayer...in answer to Williams original request to the OP.

But regardless - many people in the world believe in "lucky underpants" or similar, because somthing good happened to them when they were wearing their pants.  Can you see the parallel with what you are describing?

I see the obvious parallels as well as those you're attempting to paint.  However, "believing in lucky underpants" is much different to most Christians than people who have, been immediately, spontaneously and miraculously healed from disease and infirmity after they have prayed for in faith.  The main parallel I see is that you don't believe either to be true, or more appropriately, that maybe you believe that there must be a rational and natural explanation even if we are not aware of what it might be.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2009, 12:27:10 AM by coatofmanycolors »

Offline Ambassador Pony

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Re: Why And When God Heals People
« Reply #35 on: September 01, 2009, 05:24:23 PM »
No, it's not. There is no abduction and no miraculous healing in the first place. Both assume the conclusion in how they are presented.

In the first instance, there is no abduction at all, just "missing time", later rationalized into an anal probing adventure of galactic proportions. In the healing example, there is only an improbable, and surprising (not impossible or without precedent) recovery from an illness perceived through a filter consistant with the cultural learning of the observer and labelled accordingly.

In every meaningful way the two examples are alike.

Absolutely not.  There are indeed ways in which they are similar, and ways in which they are vastly different.  You can find similarities in almost any comparison.  However, you must qualify your statement that "in every meaningful way to you", the examples are the same.

Your last attempt to demonstrate any objective meanngfulness, or any rationally supportable subjective meaning, failed.

It failed hard.

And, don't be sour grapes when "nuh-uh, because magic!" isn't taken seriously when presented by an adult as a rational argument.

 


You believe evolution and there is no evidence for that. Where is the fossil record of a half man half ape. I've only ever heard about it in reading.

Offline coatofmanycolors

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Re: Why And When God Heals People
« Reply #36 on: September 01, 2009, 05:46:05 PM »
Your last attempt to demonstrate any objective meanngfulness, or any rationally supportable subjective meaning, failed.

It failed hard.

As opposed your absolute assessment that:

In every meaningful way the two examples are alike.

?!?!?!?

I don't even want to get started on how we would even begin to rationalize or determine what is "meaningful". Meaningful how? To whom? why?  (Please don't answer, I'm strictly asking rhetorically).


And, don't be sour grapes when "nuh-uh, because magic!" isn't taken seriously when presented by an adult as a rational argument.

Of course not!  Besides, I wouldn't be able to say "God did it", I'd actually be saying I believe God did it.  And then, if you wanted to, we could eventually explore the reasons behind that belief.

Besides, I'm rarely ever sour grapes :)

 



« Last Edit: September 01, 2009, 06:05:57 PM by coatofmanycolors »

Offline MadBunny

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Re: Why And When God Heals People
« Reply #37 on: September 01, 2009, 06:54:02 PM »
No, it's not. There is no abduction and no miraculous healing in the first place. Both assume the conclusion in how they are presented.

In every meaningful way the two examples are alike.

Absolutely not.  There are indeed ways in which they are similar, and ways in which they are vastly different.  You can find similarities in almost any comparison.  However, you must qualify your statement that "in every meaningful way to you", the examples are the same.

Do you really not see the similarity between a claim of alien abduction or sighting made by a well respected member of the his community and a claim of miraculous healing made by a member of the medical establishment?

First there is anectotal evidence, possibly with a bit of confirmation bias in the people who reported the story.  You'll note that you don't see a lot of white house press conferences on that alien ship people say they see so often.

While I'm on the topic I'd really like you to read what confirmation bias actually means.  We see it on the forums here a lot.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias
This is it in a nutshell
Quote
Confirmation bias is an irrational tendency to search for, interpret or remember information in a way that confirms one's preconceptions or working hypotheses. It is a type of cognitive bias and a systematic error of inductive reasoning. These biases in information processing are distinguished from the behavioral confirmation effect (also called self-fulfilling prophecy), in which a person's expectations influence their own behavior.[1]

Biases can occur in the collection, interpretation or recall of information.[2] Some psychologists use "confirmation bias" for systematic biases in any of these three processes, while others restrict the term to selective collection of evidence, using "assimilation bias" for biased interpretation.[3] In many reasoning situations, people avoid confirmation bias and test hypotheses in a genuinely informative way.[2] The bias appears in particular for issues that are emotionally significant (such as personal health or relationships) and for established beliefs which shape the individual's expectations.[2] Biased search, interpretation and/or storage have been invoked to explain belief perseverance (a well-established finding that beliefs remain when the evidence for them is taken away)[4] and attitude polarization (when a disagreement becomes more polarized as the different parties are exposed to the same evidence).[5]

Confirmation bias can lead to disastrous decisions, especially in organizational, military and political contexts.[6][7] Attempts to teach critical thinking can be counter-productive if confirmation biases are not addressed, since by applying logical thinking only to one side of an argument, thinkers can become "actively closed-minded".[8]

It is in large part the reason double blind studies are so important.

If someone were to tell a story of an angel coming down from the sky, and showing them a vision of heaven you might be inclined to believe it.  You'd be even more inclined to believe it if the story confirmed some things that you already hold as true. Like whatever you think Angels are like and whatever you think heaven is like.

If you heard the same story, but the person said an angel came and took him to heaven, and stuck an anal probe in him and then killed all his livestock you'd be a whole lot less inclined to believe that.

Change it up only slightly and you have aliens taking a person to their space ship, and either showing them wonders of the universe in the spirit of 'Contact' or you have a story about anal probing.  The livestock seem to lose no matter what.

Now, lets look at the medical doctor and this miraculous healing.

First, this sort of thing happens a lot.  People heal all the time, and all over the world regardless of religion or location.  That's why I said that if it was an amputation that was healed then that would be a true miracle.  A woman regaining her sight is great, but we don't know what it was that caused her blindness in the first place.  It could have been mega-pink eye or zombie bile or something.  If her eyes were missing, or made of glass that's another story and on par with the amputation criteria.

(note: amputation criteria being an example of an unambiguious miracle that can't be explained by medical science.)

All that we know are claims.
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Offline Ambassador Pony

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Re: Why And When God Heals People
« Reply #38 on: September 01, 2009, 06:56:00 PM »
Big-up yourself MB.
You believe evolution and there is no evidence for that. Where is the fossil record of a half man half ape. I've only ever heard about it in reading.

Offline coatofmanycolors

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Re: Why And When God Heals People
« Reply #39 on: September 01, 2009, 10:21:41 PM »
Do you really not see the similarity between a claim of alien abduction or sighting made by a well respected member of the his community and a claim of miraculous healing made by a member of the medical establishment?

Of course, I already said I saw the similarity...apparently you must have missed that?  What I find more interesting is that you fail to see the difference in the example as a whole (or simply don't want to confirm it).  For example, using exactly the information at hand, I think there is a huge difference between someone who claims something happened to them (which your example(s) clearly highlights), and someone who is healed with multiple eye witnesses and confirmation from the person's doctor and/or medical team.  Right there we've already created a clear demarcation between a singular claim and one with multiple witnesses. And this doesn't even take into account their family, friends, and anyone else intimately aware of their situation/condition who could clearly see the immediate difference in their condition from blindness to full sight...a truly amazing event.  

I realize you place little stock in the "evidence", and that these are essentially still claims without proof (and will never be proven)...I'm not debating that.  But, the examples are vastly different in many, many respects.  I understand that part of the strategy on the forums is to try and discredit or disparage through marginalization, patronizing speech (masquerading as sly wit or humor), confusion, intellectual grandstanding, etc., but I hope you really can (and I'm reasonably certain you do) see the difference in these examples, especially since you've made such a concerted effort to try and make them seem exactly the same.  I think if I can admit the aspects that are similar, you should have no trouble owning up to what is different. 

I'm also keenly aware of confirmation bias, but I definitely think there is value in posting the information in case anyone who comes to the thread isn't aware of what you're talking about.  I disagree that things like miraculous healings (i.e. someone blind from birth suddenly sees immediately after being prayed for) happen "all the time".  I agree people do heal regularly, but I'm making the assumption that you are not familiar with anyone blind from birth (or other remarkable healing) within your immediate personal sphere of influence, or you probably would have made mention of it. Please feel free to correct me on that point, however, since I am also aware that these things can and do happen even though they are rare (and since I'm not aware of your past experience in this area, it very well could be a faulty assumption).

« Last Edit: September 02, 2009, 12:11:54 AM by coatofmanycolors »

Offline kevyrat69

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Re: Why And When God Heals People
« Reply #40 on: September 02, 2009, 12:21:35 AM »

      Re: Why And When God Heals People
« Reply #19 on: August 30, 2009, 03:00:26 AM » Quote 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote from: kevyrat69 on August 30, 2009, 02:48:06 AM
So Chaplain, this would all clear up if you came over to The dark side buhahahahhaha



*snicker*
 
 Okay RaptorJesus that was funny as hell.  Thank you for that laugh!!!  I died lol ;D
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whatever people are experiencing when they experience God, it's not something they're perceiving in the external world. It's something their brains are making up.
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Offline MadBunny

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Re: Why And When God Heals People
« Reply #41 on: September 02, 2009, 01:34:08 AM »
Tell you what.  I get what you're saying.

Do yourself a favor though and look up UFO stuff.  There is at least as much 'evidence' eyewitnesses and testimony as any of the miraculous healings you are mentioning.  I'm not particularly interested in delving into the UFO subculture again having already done it once for a movie I was working on.  I found a whole and thriving niche culture that has it's own inertia.  I personally find most of the people who are part of it just as weird and out of place as I find fundies that go on about hell, end of times and apocalypse.

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/Health/story?id=1551891
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,485704,00.html
Long ass url

Stories like these are like the UFO buffs version of a weather balloon.

Here is a picture "masquerading as sly wit or humor" for you. 
Give a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a night.  Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

Offline coatofmanycolors

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Re: Why And When God Heals People
« Reply #42 on: September 02, 2009, 01:39:54 AM »

Here is a picture "masquerading as sly wit or humor" for you.  


lol... Touché  ;D

That was a great post!
« Last Edit: September 02, 2009, 02:17:27 AM by coatofmanycolors »

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Why And When God Heals People
« Reply #43 on: September 02, 2009, 04:07:03 AM »
Hmm.  Now we've moved from a single alleged case of a cure (with no accompanying references or evidence) to "several cases" - equally without accompanying evidence or reference).

I'm personally aware of 2 very specifically, and I also know there were others with which I am not aware of all the particulars.  I'm not here to provide you with evidence that will satisfy you (as that would be impossible short of witnessing an amputee grow a limb in a conditioned experiment :) ),

And, to everone except you, it is meaningless as you refuse to give any detail that can be verified.
All you've given is unsubstantiated "oooh, but it happened!" - not very helpful.

But regardless - many people in the world believe in "lucky underpants" or similar, because somthing good happened to them when they were wearing their pants.  Can you see the parallel with what you are describing?

I see the obvious parallels as well as those you're attempting to paint.  However, "believing in lucky underpants" is much different to most Christians than people who have, been immediately, spontaneously and miraculously healed from disease and infirmity after they have prayed for in faith.  The main parallel I see is that you don't believe either to be true, or more appropriately, that maybe you believe that there must be a rational and natural explanation even if we are not aware of what it might be.

Until you provide the details of the disease of which they were healed, and the circumstances, then they are exactly parallel.  Wearing my lucky underpants every day for a week healed the pain in my shoulder.  I have several witnesses that will testify to the fact that one day I was in pain, and the next was cured - and this was clearly and miraculously down to my wearing those lucky pants.

Please don't forget that - to us - you are an anonymous internet poster.  You could be one person, or a group.  You could be a Christian, or an atheist, or a troll.  You can say "miracles caused a doctor to believe in Yahweh!", or you could say "all of us were abducted together!" or you could say "we all saw Bigfoot".  You can claim whatever you like about whatever you like, but unless you are prepared to give some detail you can't really complain that people are viewing your claims through a particular bias.  So far, you've given us nothing to even consider.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Ambassador Pony

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Re: Why And When God Heals People
« Reply #44 on: September 02, 2009, 06:29:55 AM »
Of course, I already said I saw the similarity...apparently you must have missed that?  What I find more interesting is that you fail to see the difference in the example as a whole (or simply don't want to confirm it).  For example, using exactly the information at hand, I think there is a huge difference between someone who claims something happened to them (which your example(s) clearly highlights), and someone who is healed with multiple eye witnesses and confirmation from the person's doctor and/or medical team.  Right there we've already created a clear demarcation between a singular claim and one with multiple witnesses. And this doesn't even take into account their family, friends, and anyone else intimately aware of their situation/condition who could clearly see the immediate difference in their condition from blindness to full sight...a truly amazing event.

The minutiae of a story beginning with "grampy told me" are irrelevant. That was the spirit of my original complaint in the matter. I see you've read it, having now taken out the word 'miraculous' (even thought you still know it in your heart).

Also, you are adding details to my anal probing aliens that I did not give you. You don't think that grampy doesn't report these things having happened to groups, or pairs? With scientists and/or professionals present to witness them?

FTR, Here's my post:

No, it's not. There is no abduction and no miraculous healing in the first place. Both assume the conclusion in how they are presented.

In the first instance, there is no abduction at all, just "missing time", later rationalized into an anal probing adventure of galactic proportions. In the healing example, there is only an improbable, and surprising (not impossible or without precedent) recovery from an illness perceived through a filter consistant with the cultural learning of the observer and labelled accordingly.

In every meaningful way the two examples are alike.

There are chrches full of people jumping around like monkeys, babbling and later claiming it was a foreign language. This disgusting display is a group behaviour. As long as the room is full of people who have the same general conditioned perceptual set, your going to get the same interpretation of a perceived event, especially if they have access to each other in the moments directly after the event, to implicitly haggle over and reinforce the "correct" interpretation.

The same process occurs with any belief set.   
You believe evolution and there is no evidence for that. Where is the fossil record of a half man half ape. I've only ever heard about it in reading.

Offline pied piper

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Re: Why And When God Heals People
« Reply #45 on: December 02, 2009, 12:28:26 AM »
God can't heal amputees right now because God is a collaboration.  God is greater than we are because he is composed of those that let him live through their lives.  Healing takes a strong focused attentive belief, especially from the person being healed.  The people more that believe in the success of the healing, the more likely that the healing will take place.  God can heal all wounds, including amputations, but to heal all wounds and take away all bad things requires the universal (meaning everyone must take part) belief in God.

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Why And When God Heals People
« Reply #46 on: December 02, 2009, 05:38:42 AM »
God can't heal amputees right now because God is a collaboration.  God is greater than we are because he is composed of those that let him live through their lives.  Healing takes a strong focused attentive belief, especially from the person being healed.  The people more that believe in the success of the healing, the more likely that the healing will take place.  God can heal all wounds, including amputations, but to heal all wounds and take away all bad things requires the universal (meaning everyone must take part) belief in God.

How nice it must be to be able to assert things that not only HAVE no proof, but are in fact impossible to EVER prove!
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline pied piper

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Re: Why And When God Heals People
« Reply #47 on: December 02, 2009, 08:02:46 AM »
They are not impossible to prove.  Some are just too stubborn to try it.

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Why And When God Heals People
« Reply #48 on: December 02, 2009, 08:29:50 AM »
They are not impossible to prove.  Some are just too stubborn to try it.

Bullcrap.  Your claim was that "God can heal all wounds (provided there is) universal belief in God."

Do you honestly think that is something that can be proved?  That all the Muslims and atheists and Buddhists will suddenly turn to your god?

But more importantly, it is impossible to believe in something you don't believe in.  If you claim it IS possible to just bring yourself to believe in something you are sure is false, I have a little experiment for you to try....
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline pied piper

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Re: Why And When God Heals People
« Reply #49 on: December 02, 2009, 08:52:30 AM »
There is only one God that is made up of many parts.  I'm not proclaiming that Buddhists or Muslims turn to my God.  My God is their God.  As for atheists, I have looked at the polls on this website, most of the atheists here have at least a sliver of a belief that there may be a God.  I assert that those who don't beleive in God at all beleive that there are scientifict laws which rule the universe.  What is the difference?  Something rules the universe, whatever you choose to call it!  I have suspended my beleif in God, only about 20 minutes ago. I questioned my beleif in God, I was ready to accept atheism if I could reconcile certain things. 

Online Azdgari

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Re: Why And When God Heals People
« Reply #50 on: December 02, 2009, 08:54:00 AM »
You said "universal belief in God".  If you did not mean "universal belief in God", then why didn't you say what you meant?
I have not encountered any mechanical malfunctioning in my spirit.  It works every single time I need it to.

Offline pied piper

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Re: Why And When God Heals People
« Reply #51 on: December 02, 2009, 08:59:28 AM »
That is what I meant.  How is that different just because you have a different name for it?

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Re: Why And When God Heals People
« Reply #52 on: December 02, 2009, 09:12:09 AM »
Angauglir pointed out that your proof-test was totally impossible, as it requires "universal belief in God".  You disagreed.  So, unless you have some plausible way to give the entire world a "universal belief in God", you're wrong.  Unless, of course, you didn't actually mean "universal belief in God" when you initially used those words.
I have not encountered any mechanical malfunctioning in my spirit.  It works every single time I need it to.

Offline jedweber

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Re: Why And When God Heals People
« Reply #53 on: December 02, 2009, 09:37:14 AM »
http://www.skepdic.com/faithhealing.html

Quote
When an alleged cure by faith healing occurs in a religious context it is usually called a  miracle. Those who have investigated these claims have not found a single case that stands up to scrutiny and that can be explained only by appealing to a miracle (Mackay 1841; Rose 1968; Nolen 1974; Randi 1989; Nickell 1993; Hines 2003;  Barrett 2003).

Offline pied piper

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Re: Why And When God Heals People
« Reply #54 on: December 02, 2009, 12:26:53 PM »
Azdgari & Angauglir,
  I do have a plausible way to give the entire world the universal belief in God.  I think I explained it in this thread, if not, please look through my other posts for more understanding of what I am trying to convey: there will be a day when everyone believes, whether you choose to now or not.  This may not happen quickly according to our time frame, but according to the Bible (I'm aware that you are discarding this, but I am only offering explanation on my personal beliefs), 1000 days for us is a day to God.  As long as it is being pursued by at least one person, it will happen in due time.  I'm not asserting that you will choose to follow God at anypoint in your life, but just as your ancestors are a part of you, if you choose to procreate, you will not have a choice in the matter.  This sounds condescending, but I think the same thing about me.  Only the good ideas will persist, the bad ideas will die off. 

Online Azdgari

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Re: Why And When God Heals People
« Reply #55 on: December 02, 2009, 12:36:20 PM »
That's not a test that you can actually carry out, though.  Without commenting on what you think is actually going to happen (I disagree, but that's a tangent), I can say that we both agree that as a test, it's currently useless.  It might as well not be a test at all, for our purposes - wouldn't you agree?
I have not encountered any mechanical malfunctioning in my spirit.  It works every single time I need it to.

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Re: Why And When God Heals People
« Reply #56 on: December 02, 2009, 12:50:29 PM »
Okay. I agree that we may not see the results of this test.  I would like to argue that any scientific experiment is only a component of an ultimate test of which we will likely not see the result.
  I have witnessed healing, though, in those that felt that there were no barriers for their healing.  I find that medicine is alot like religion.  There are many beliefs on how to best treat the body.  In Western medicine, we tend to not incorporate many of the aspects of healing that are beneficial.  In order to treat our bodies in the best way possible, we must learn from each practice with open minds.

Offline velkyn

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Re: Why And When God Heals People
« Reply #57 on: December 02, 2009, 03:37:27 PM »
God can't heal amputees right now because God is a collaboration.  God is greater than we are because he is composed of those that let him live through their lives.  Healing takes a strong focused attentive belief, especially from the person being healed.  The people more that believe in the success of the healing, the more likely that the healing will take place.  God can heal all wounds, including amputations, but to heal all wounds and take away all bad things requires the universal (meaning everyone must take part) belief in God.

what nonsense.  No healing does not take any magical belief, it takes cells etc.  Your god hasn't healed ANY amputations.  And allowing all wounds to heal sure leaves a lot more bad things left.  Ah, the creative lies of a theist to explain why their god is impotent. And the ol' "my god is their god" attempt of a theist to claim that any good is just rom their God and others are "really" worshipping that.  Oh, you claim you've "witnessed" healings, okay, where is the evidence?  Where are the medical records before and after?  Oh, none of those? gee how strange that no one has those.

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I have suspended my beleif in God, only about 20 minutes ago. I questioned my beleif in God, I was ready to accept atheism if I could reconcile certain things. 

ROFL! 

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there will be a day when everyone believes, whether you choose to now or not.
DOUBLE ROFL!
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1000 days for us is a day to God
so hey, is your savoir coming back in 365x40x1000 years (14,600,000 years) since a 1000 years is like a  day to your god and your god should be back within a "generation" (liberally taken to be 40 years)? 
"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

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