Author Topic: Your website is wonderful [#1555]  (Read 3498 times)

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Offline JT114881

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Re: Your website is wonderful [#1555]
« Reply #29 on: July 10, 2009, 10:23:46 PM »
That might be too blunt and end up causing you quite a few problems.  Even non-cultish churches tend to lash out when threatened; either you are with them or you are against them.[1]  If you are against them, you are inhuman and can be mistreated as such.  A single well placed comment or fact can be effective, though.
 1. That said, I think that all religions and denominations are cults -- just well established cults.

If they throw me out then chances are they would throw my wife out too. Which would be awesome.

One other thing I forgot to mention. One of their main doctrines is "Everything we teach is written in the bible, nothing comes from
other sources like the rosary beads of the catholics for example" so in that instance if he were to get into a debate with me, he would
have to use the bible to prove his point. Any citing of an apologetic would be admitting the bible has contradictions. 
There's a windmill in my beard, your argument is invalid.

Offline Hermes

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Re: Your website is wonderful [#1555]
« Reply #30 on: July 11, 2009, 12:31:44 AM »
That might be too blunt and end up causing you quite a few problems.  Even non-cultish churches tend to lash out when threatened; either you are with them or you are against them.[1]  If you are against them, you are inhuman and can be mistreated as such.  A single well placed comment or fact can be effective, though.
 1. That said, I think that all religions and denominations are cults -- just well established cults.

If they throw me out then chances are they would throw my wife out too. Which would be awesome.

Or decide to encourage your wife to leave you.  That's what cults do.  Don't expect anything ethical out of these people.

One other thing I forgot to mention. One of their main doctrines is "Everything we teach is written in the bible, nothing comes from other sources like the rosary beads of the catholics for example" so in that instance if he were to get into a debate with me, he would have to use the bible to prove his point. Any citing of an apologetic would be admitting the bible has contradictions.

Never underestimate the ability to pull the 'right' contradiction out of that contradictory book.

Don't assume you can out talk them.  To put this in perspective, I introduce you to Pat Condell;

Quote
Faith is non-negotiable, so where exactly is the debate? You obey the rules of reason; religion ignores them, and neutralises your argument before you've even opened your mouth. It's not interested in anything you've got to say.  It's just waiting for you to draw breath so it can say: "Yes, that's all very well, but you've still got to submit because it's written in this book."

Transcript: http://stage.dotsub.com/view/3b95169f-8aa5-40d3-9120-fc214fe8f416

Why debate dogma?
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5cXWElb-GE[/youtube]
Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons. --Michael Shermer

The history of religion is a long attempt to reconcile old custom with new reason, to find a sound theory for an absurd practice.  --Sir James George Frazer

Offline MrFriday

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Re: Your website is wonderful [#1555]
« Reply #31 on: July 11, 2009, 01:58:15 AM »
One other thing I forgot to mention. One of their main doctrines is "Everything we teach is written in the bible, nothing comes from other sources like the rosary beads of the catholics for example" so in that instance if he were to get into a debate with me, he would
have to use the bible to prove his point. Any citing of an apologetic would be admitting the bible has contradictions.
That sounds good if they will actually stick strictly to the Bible although someone exceptionally well versed in the Bible can pick parts out that can be conversation stoppers. You can't reason with the unreasonable. And he need not cite any apologetics in order to make the argument himself. No matter what anyone says, the Bible must be interpreted. He can tell you that "verse X means Y" and all you can do is say, "no it doesn't" and then you have a conflict of interpretations. Which one will he go with, yours or his?
"Faith is believing in something you know isn't true" - Mark Twain

Offline JT114881

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Re: Your website is wonderful [#1555]
« Reply #32 on: July 11, 2009, 03:46:50 AM »
One other thing I forgot to mention. One of their main doctrines is "Everything we teach is written in the bible, nothing comes from other sources like the rosary beads of the catholics for example" so in that instance if he were to get into a debate with me, he would
have to use the bible to prove his point. Any citing of an apologetic would be admitting the bible has contradictions.
That sounds good if they will actually stick strictly to the Bible although someone exceptionally well versed in the Bible can pick parts out that can be conversation stoppers. You can't reason with the unreasonable. And he need not cite any apologetics in order to make the argument himself. No matter what anyone says, the Bible must be interpreted. He can tell you that "verse X means Y" and all you can do is say, "no it doesn't" and then you have a conflict of interpretations. Which one will he go with, yours or his?

They quoted the bible during the marriage that the man is the head of the household and that women shall have no authority over man.
Wives are to submit to their husbands and learn in silence. They quoted this literally so why can I quote the rest?

Edit: 1 Timothy 2:11-12 is what is quoted in their doctrine:
"13. A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness.
12.     But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet."
« Last Edit: July 11, 2009, 03:54:18 AM by JT114881 »
There's a windmill in my beard, your argument is invalid.

Offline MrFriday

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Re: Your website is wonderful [#1555]
« Reply #33 on: July 11, 2009, 04:15:44 AM »
One other thing I forgot to mention. One of their main doctrines is "Everything we teach is written in the bible, nothing comes from other sources like the rosary beads of the catholics for example" so in that instance if he were to get into a debate with me, he would
have to use the bible to prove his point. Any citing of an apologetic would be admitting the bible has contradictions.
That sounds good if they will actually stick strictly to the Bible although someone exceptionally well versed in the Bible can pick parts out that can be conversation stoppers. You can't reason with the unreasonable. And he need not cite any apologetics in order to make the argument himself. No matter what anyone says, the Bible must be interpreted. He can tell you that "verse X means Y" and all you can do is say, "no it doesn't" and then you have a conflict of interpretations. Which one will he go with, yours or his?

They quoted the bible during the marriage that the man is the head of the household and that women shall have no authority over man.
Wives are to submit to their husbands and learn in silence. They quoted this literally so why can I quote the rest?
You may be able to quote that to your wife. However, the Bible also says "Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness?" —2 Corinthians 6:14 They could tell your wife that you are an unrighteous unbeliever and that nullifies what it says about submitting to her husband. They might also use Deuteronomy 7:3-4  "You shall not intermarry with them, giving your daughters to their sons or taking their daughters for your sons, for they would turn away your sons from following me, to serve other gods. Then the anger of the Lord would be kindled against you, and he would destroy you quickly."

Believe me when I tell you that you have to be very well versed in the Bible to compete with people who make it their lives. If you take on one of their ministers head to head and he makes you look foolish, how will this help you with your wife? If you go this route, here is a verse to remember: 1 Corinthians 7:13-15  "And if a woman has a husband who is not a believer and he is willing to live with her, she must not divorce him.  For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy.  But if the unbeliever leaves, let him do so. A believing man or woman is not bound in such circumstances; God has called us to live in peace."

Like I said, the Bible has many conflicts and it is possible to interpret any verse in multiple ways. Since there are conflicts, religions decide which parts supersede other parts. It is a tricky game and they hold more cards than you.
"Faith is believing in something you know isn't true" - Mark Twain

Offline JT114881

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Re: Your website is wonderful [#1555]
« Reply #34 on: July 11, 2009, 05:14:23 AM »
One other thing I forgot to mention. One of their main doctrines is "Everything we teach is written in the bible, nothing comes from other sources like the rosary beads of the catholics for example" so in that instance if he were to get into a debate with me, he would
have to use the bible to prove his point. Any citing of an apologetic would be admitting the bible has contradictions.
That sounds good if they will actually stick strictly to the Bible although someone exceptionally well versed in the Bible can pick parts out that can be conversation stoppers. You can't reason with the unreasonable. And he need not cite any apologetics in order to make the argument himself. No matter what anyone says, the Bible must be interpreted. He can tell you that "verse X means Y" and all you can do is say, "no it doesn't" and then you have a conflict of interpretations. Which one will he go with, yours or his?

They quoted the bible during the marriage that the man is the head of the household and that women shall have no authority over man.
Wives are to submit to their husbands and learn in silence. They quoted this literally so why can I quote the rest?
You may be able to quote that to your wife. However, the Bible also says "Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness?" —2 Corinthians 6:14 They could tell your wife that you are an unrighteous unbeliever and that nullifies what it says about submitting to her husband.

Good thing is they (the church and pretty much everyone except my wife) don't know that I am questioning the religion. I would go into it as a christian with some questions. If they cannot answer the questions then I will just say hmm and that is it. Also we are married in the Philippines and it is not possible to get divorced here. It's against the law and there is no process for it. She is stuck with me. Also she is pregnant 2 months...
There's a windmill in my beard, your argument is invalid.

Offline Hermes

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Re: Your website is wonderful [#1555]
« Reply #35 on: July 11, 2009, 05:21:53 AM »
Good thing is they (the church and pretty much everyone except my wife) don't know that I am questioning the religion. I would go into it as a christian with some questions. If they cannot answer the questions then I will just say hmm and that is it. Also we are married in the Philippines and it is not possible to get divorced here. It's against the law and there is no process for it. She is stuck with me. Also she is pregnant 2 months...

Well, usually I'm against government intervention in private affairs, but in your case all I'll say is I hope she's worth it, because you're stuck with her too!   ;D
Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons. --Michael Shermer

The history of religion is a long attempt to reconcile old custom with new reason, to find a sound theory for an absurd practice.  --Sir James George Frazer

Offline MrFriday

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Re: Your website is wonderful [#1555]
« Reply #36 on: July 11, 2009, 05:24:23 AM »
Good thing is they (the church and pretty much everyone except my wife) don't know that I am questioning the religion. I would go into it as a christian with some questions. If they cannot answer the questions then I will just say hmm and that is it.
I'm not sure I completely understand your plan.

Also we are married in the Philippines and it is not possible to get divorced here. It's against the law and there is no process for it. She is stuck with me.
I did not know that. I was in the Philippines about thirty years ago but I guess the topic never came up. I was already married before I went there so I had no need to discuss getting married.

Also she is pregnant 2 months...
Congratulations!
"Faith is believing in something you know isn't true" - Mark Twain

Offline JT114881

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Re: Your website is wonderful [#1555]
« Reply #37 on: July 11, 2009, 05:46:26 AM »
Good thing is they (the church and pretty much everyone except my wife) don't know that I am questioning the religion. I would go into it as a christian with some questions. If they cannot answer the questions then I will just say hmm and that is it.
I'm not sure I completely understand your plan.

Also we are married in the Philippines and it is not possible to get divorced here. It's against the law and there is no process for it. She is stuck with me.
I did not know that. I was in the Philippines about thirty years ago but I guess the topic never came up. I was already married before I went there so I had no need to discuss getting married.

Also she is pregnant 2 months...
Congratulations!

THANKS  ;D ;D ;D I was kind of shocked when I found out heh.

http://www.socyberty.com/Law/Divorce-in-the-Philippines.20634
Quick Google search of "Philippines Divorce"

Also the church is highly against divorce as well, even if it were legal. Worst that can happen is she leaves me I guess, not saying that's a GOOD thing.
There's a windmill in my beard, your argument is invalid.

Offline JT114881

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Re: Your website is wonderful [#1555]
« Reply #38 on: July 11, 2009, 06:23:40 AM »
Damn there is just no talking to her about it, she simply does not want to hear it. It's childish the way she dismisses logic.
Any suggestions? What will I do if she wont even listen?
There's a windmill in my beard, your argument is invalid.

Offline Hermes

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Re: Your website is wonderful [#1555]
« Reply #39 on: July 11, 2009, 10:28:57 AM »
Imagine that I'm a hockey fan.  24/7, I'm talking hockey.  Hockey is the greatest sport on the planet, and if you don't live somewhere that a lake freezes over for a few months out of the year, you just aren't living.  Imagine that I'm funny, and animated, smart, caring, and generally a good guy to hang out with.

Now, imagine I'm your roommate and work with you.  Imagine that I have decided to convince you to move to Siberia.  Half of the day, it's the only thing I'm talking about.

Don't be that insistent.
Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons. --Michael Shermer

The history of religion is a long attempt to reconcile old custom with new reason, to find a sound theory for an absurd practice.  --Sir James George Frazer

Offline JT114881

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Re: Your website is wonderful [#1555]
« Reply #40 on: July 11, 2009, 05:25:18 PM »
I am not incessant about it, I only bring it up when she brings god up which thankfully isn't too often.

She has, however, pushed me into asking the minister about the following verses, I am interested to hear his excuses.

1 Timothy 2:9-15
1 Corinthians 14:34-36
1 Corinthians 11:5–10

My main argument: Why don't we teach these things from the bible?
Why do we teach 1 Tim 2:12 but not the verses around it?
If INC's teachings all come from the bible why don't they teach all of it?

Wish me luck, although I am not sure it's going to be too hard to stump him. The ministers
at this church mostly study scripture that involves the lessons that they teach and ignore
other parts of the bible. If he doesn't know his shit then this will be to my advantage.
There's a windmill in my beard, your argument is invalid.

Offline Hermes

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Re: Your website is wonderful [#1555]
« Reply #41 on: July 11, 2009, 09:12:42 PM »
If she asked (and is stuck with you!), then go for it.  Expect to be outflanked; it's not your career that is being challenged, though it is the ministers.  If you hold your own or even stump him, then that's a definite bonus -- especially when talking to someone without the benefit of search engines and edit buttons!
Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons. --Michael Shermer

The history of religion is a long attempt to reconcile old custom with new reason, to find a sound theory for an absurd practice.  --Sir James George Frazer

Offline JT114881

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Re: Your website is wonderful [#1555]
« Reply #42 on: July 11, 2009, 11:35:35 PM »
If she asked (and is stuck with you!), then go for it.  Expect to be outflanked; it's not your career that is being challenged, though it is the ministers.  If you hold your own or even stump him, then that's a definite bonus -- especially when talking to someone without the benefit of search engines and edit buttons!

She decided the minister "is very busy" earlier today (and she is right, he is busy counting the money no joke) so I didn't have
a change to have a chat. She told me to do it tomorrow night. We will see.
There's a windmill in my beard, your argument is invalid.

Offline Hermes

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Re: Your website is wonderful [#1555]
« Reply #43 on: July 12, 2009, 07:47:43 AM »
If you can get in the frame of mind that you are passive, open, and inquisitive (while still not suckered into the BS), then do that.  Nothing flusters someone selling BS more than someone who is insistent yet somehow uninvolved yet deeply "skeptical".
Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons. --Michael Shermer

The history of religion is a long attempt to reconcile old custom with new reason, to find a sound theory for an absurd practice.  --Sir James George Frazer

Offline JT114881

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Re: Your website is wonderful [#1555]
« Reply #44 on: July 12, 2009, 02:10:43 PM »
If you can get in the frame of mind that you are passive, open, and inquisitive (while still not suckered into the BS), then do that.  Nothing flusters someone selling BS more than someone who is insistent yet somehow uninvolved yet deeply "skeptical".

Exactly.

"Mr. Pastor I am confused about why the bible doesn't make sense can you explain it for me?"
There's a windmill in my beard, your argument is invalid.

Offline Hermes

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Re: Your website is wonderful [#1555]
« Reply #45 on: July 12, 2009, 06:33:12 PM »
If you can get in the frame of mind that you are passive, open, and inquisitive (while still not suckered into the BS), then do that.  Nothing flusters someone selling BS more than someone who is insistent yet somehow uninvolved yet deeply "skeptical".

Exactly.

"Mr. Pastor I am confused about why the bible doesn't make sense can you explain it for me?"

Have you ever seen the TV show Columbo?  That's the attitude!  I had a phrase for it "The Columbo Method", though I can't tell you if that phrase is my own invention or not.  A refresher or an introduction if you haven't seen that old show before;

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=leybGZjiqoE[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6jyyTmgrFc[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXlUzu2SPkY[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEf5lFkQXVQ[/youtube]
« Last Edit: July 12, 2009, 06:35:22 PM by Hermes »
Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons. --Michael Shermer

The history of religion is a long attempt to reconcile old custom with new reason, to find a sound theory for an absurd practice.  --Sir James George Frazer

Offline JT114881

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Re: Your website is wonderful [#1555]
« Reply #46 on: July 14, 2009, 01:18:25 AM »
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEf5lFkQXVQ[/youtube]

LOL@ Columbo rubbing up on the Fox news chick.
There's a windmill in my beard, your argument is invalid.

Offline eaterjolly

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Re: Your website is wonderful [#1555]
« Reply #47 on: July 16, 2009, 04:18:05 PM »
I have seen both your websites and I love them. My wife is Iglesia Ni Cristo a
Filipino christian religion and I hope to break her of her delusion with your
websites along with other material. I know she is a smart person I just hope she can
see through the delusion. Since prayer doesn't work and luck doesn't work either and
technically wishing for the best wouldn't help, please hope for the best and I am
successful.

[name]
I wish her luck O.o!!!
I'm back.. I've grown in faith and in dispute for the church, which cares more for itself than God!

I thirst for debate! I bet I can challenge everything thing you say about the faith! I'm only 15 so I can't be on all the time but I'll jump-on once in a while...

Do you accept my challenge?

Offline JT114881

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Re: Your website is wonderful [#1555]
« Reply #48 on: July 17, 2009, 04:00:17 AM »
I wish her luck O.o!!!

That's funny because she believes her religion is the only true christian religion and all other Catholics and Christians will go to hell, including you.
There's a windmill in my beard, your argument is invalid.

Offline JT114881

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Re: Your website is wonderful [#1555]
« Reply #49 on: July 17, 2009, 04:04:33 AM »
Also, I sent the minister that oversees the extension in Boston an email (there's like 6000 of these damn churches all over the world scary eh?) and this is the email:


Quote from: Email
pls call me around 10:00 am here, we'll discuss your questions.

ka benj

--- On Thu, 7/16/09, Josh Thompson <jt114881@yahoo.com> wrote:


    From: Josh Thompson <jt114881@yahoo.com>
    Subject: Hello
    To: "Ka Benji" <benjiexxxxxxxxxs@xxxxxxxx.com>
    Date: Thursday, July 16, 2009, 9:52 PM

    Hello Ka Benjie I just had a couple questions about some of the verses in the bible. I don't have time to ask Ka Jun dito sa lokal ng bago bantay so I figured I would ask you instead:


    1 Timothy 2:9-15
    9.       Likewise, I want women to adorn themselves with proper clothing, modestly and discreetly, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly garments,
    10.      but rather by means of good works, as is proper for women making a claim to godliness.
    11.      A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness.
    12.      But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet.
    13.      For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve.
    14.      And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.
    15.      But women will be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint.

    Here it says that women are not allowed to braid their hair, wear gold or pearls, or expensive clothing, but most of the women inside the church do this things. Why is this allowed? It not only condemns this things inside the church but outside as well.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    1 Corinthians 14:34-36
    34.       The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says.
    35.      If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church.
    36.      Was it from you that the word of God first went forth? Or has it come to you only?

    These verses say that women are not allowed to speak inside the church, and if they have a question they should ask their husbands while they are at home because it is improper for a women to speak at all inside the church. Why are women inside the church allowed to sing and speak inside the church if God condemns it?
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    1 Corinthians 11:5–10
    5.      But every woman who has her head uncovered while praying or prophesying disgraces her head, for she is one and the same as the woman whose head is shaved.
    6.     For if a woman does not cover her head, let her also have her hair cut off; but if it is disgraceful for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, let her cover her head.
    7.     For a man ought not to have his head covered, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man.
    8.     For man does not originate from woman, but woman from man;
    9.     for indeed man was not created for the woman's sake, but woman for the man's sake.
    10.     Therefore the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels.

    Here it states that women should have their heads covered why praying, because if she doesn't then it disgraces her head. If she chooses not to cover her head God allows the women to shave her head as an alternative. The men in the church should not cover their head because they are the glory of God but women are the glory of men because women came from man and man came from God. Why does the church allow these women to pray with their heads not covered inside and outside of the church?
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I hope you can answer my questions.
    Oh by the way we just found out Therry is pregnant :-D

    -Josh

« Last Edit: July 17, 2009, 04:06:04 AM by JT114881 »
There's a windmill in my beard, your argument is invalid.

Offline JT114881

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Re: Your website is wonderful [#1555]
« Reply #50 on: July 22, 2009, 09:46:09 AM »
Ok I had my conversation with the pastor and I recorded the conversation. All of the answers were bs and it's really funny to hear some of the stuff
he pulls directly from his ass. I will post the audio later for everyone to enjoy.
There's a windmill in my beard, your argument is invalid.

Offline Hermes

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Re: Your website is wonderful [#1555]
« Reply #51 on: July 22, 2009, 10:28:22 AM »
Sounds like an instant classic.  ;D
Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons. --Michael Shermer

The history of religion is a long attempt to reconcile old custom with new reason, to find a sound theory for an absurd practice.  --Sir James George Frazer

Offline Arakk

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Re: Your website is wonderful [#1555]
« Reply #52 on: July 22, 2009, 12:12:11 PM »
Yes when I saw her start to get uncomfortable I backed off. The problem with her specific case is its basically cult Christianity. You can get a basic idea of her religion by reading the wikipedia article.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iglesia_ni_Cristo


Basically this is the only church and all the other Christian churches are wrong.


I think the fact that she got uncomfortable shows she isn't all the way down the rabbit-hole just yet. I also think you did the right thing to back off, it has to be gradual, too much discomfort will trigger her to put up all the defenses and it will be like trying to convince Ray Comfort that god doesn't exist. She cannot feel like her beliefs are under attack, but it sounds like it may still be able to lead her discomfort to personal curiosity, which may lead to free and uninfluenced rational thought...which always leads to atheism.

I would say you've planted the seed, now just nurture it a little. Conveniently leave some literature around the house when you know she's home alone, "accidently" leave atheist videos open on the computer. Basically provide her with the tools to investigate on her own.
To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin.

   ?? Cardinal Bellarmine (Trial of Galileo)