Author Topic: Probabilities of God's existence debate  (Read 149464 times)

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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #1740 on: July 16, 2017, 05:50:04 AM »
Have you actually healed anything that leaves obvious physical signs behind (for example, cuts, bruises, contusions, etc), or is it always things like aches and pains which can be subject to the placebo effect?
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Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #1741 on: July 16, 2017, 06:54:42 AM »
we ask if we can pray for the person, and if they say yes, we ask if we can lay hands on them,
then some gives a short prayer like: "I command pain go in the name of Jesus Christ" , the pain usually disappears within several seconds.

It sounds like you are just assuming a cause, instead of asking what the cause is?

Which natural explanations have you ruled out?

Are you actually touching people? What about the warmth of your hands?
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Offline velkyn

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #1742 on: July 16, 2017, 08:32:02 AM »
Hi there,
firstly sorry if it looked like I was dodging questions, I wasn't trying to,
2ndly, I'm going to ignore all the questions talking about me not being who I say I am, cause its a waste of both of our time

It is not a waste of time at all.  That is, again, you dodging questions.

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Anyway,
So I'm going to explain what we generally do and we can go from there:

Basically we (like a small group) generally go to some place where there are people (generally the inner city or a local market), Then we ask God who we should go to, then we go over and ask the person something like: "hi, do you have any aches or pains?"if they do, then we ask if we can pray for the person, and if they say yes, we ask if we can lay hands on them,then some gives a short prayer like: "I command pain go in the name of Jesus Christ" , the pain usually disappears within several seconds.
So, it seems that "we" are one more sect of Christians, no surprise there.   Most people have an ache or a pain, so your claims of asking your god who has a ache or pain is nothing special.   

Then there is the chance of how many people want strangers to pray for them.  That selects for people who think prayer does something.  That makes the sample already primed to believe. 

The aches and pains have no visible evidence to have ever existed nor any evidence that they have left. 
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of course sometimes its not just pains, it just that they are the most common.
like 95% of the people we pray for are not Christian and have no reason to believe that it would do anything.
unsurprisingly, you cannot or will not give examples of these other things.  And there is nothing to show that the people you pray for are not Christian.   Your claim of "like 95%" means nothing without context.  Where are these "inner city" places and these markets?  If you are from Australia, then around 50% of the population identifies as Christian, which makes your claims suspect.  Exaggeration is nothing new with some Christians.   
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you can look up the last reformation if you want, I don't agree with everything they say but they do do similar stuff.
the1j

Unsurprisingly, we have yet one more Christian who is sure that those other Christians are wrong.  The Last Reformation folks are the usual conservative Christians who make claims of miracles and who can't do anything at all.  They are they usual type who claim they can "pray the gay away" and similar nonsense.   

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Torben_S%C3%B8ndergaard (their leader). 

and here's some info on similar nonsense in Australia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentecostalism_in_Australia
 
Groups like what the1J seems to be indicating are nothing more than groups like Healing on the Streets which make baseless claims and who can't do the things that the bible claims they should be able to do (e.g. Matthew 10, Luke 10. )  Their handbook, http://www.hotsbath.uk/hotsbath_pdf/HOTS_Bath_Training_Manual.pdf , is pretty funny when they list the ways that JC supposedly healed and then insist that "We never use spit".  They are also not to wear sunglasses (?) and they must tell their people "Don’t flap like a penguin, or start making strange noises! We don’t want to draw attention to ourselves."  and "If you pray for a person in a wheelchair never drag them out of the chair and declare they are healed. If God has healed them He will give them power to get up and walk."  Curious about that "if" statement. 

Indeed, there is occasional cases of leprosy in Australia, and funny how magical healing never happens but modern medicine is used: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3650307/ 

there is also that problem that some Christians insist that the healing promised in the bible isn't for physical ailments at all but only "spiritual" ones.   Now which Christians shall we believe, if any at all?  None of you have any evidence that your claims are true. 

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Offline screwtape

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #1743 on: July 16, 2017, 09:21:25 AM »
Basically we (like a small group) generally go to some place where there are people (generally the inner city or a local market),
Then we ask God who we should go to, then we go over and ask the person something like: "hi, do you have any aches or pains?"
if they do, ...

So, sometimes they don't?  Which means your prayers about who to approach do not always work.  Do you know the accuracy rate of your selection prayers?  How does that compare to the success rate of randomly asking people whether they have aches or pains?  I bet they are identical. 

Similar situations:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/04/world/middleeast/04sensors.html

http://skepdic.com/quadro.html

then we ask if we can pray for the person, and if they say yes,


So, again, sometimes they say no, which indicates your prayer failed. 

we ask if we can lay hands on them,
then some gives a short prayer like: "I command pain go in the name of Jesus Christ" , the pain usually disappears within several seconds.

Usually?  What is the success rate?  Are you sure they aren't just obliging you?  Have you,checked on the long term effects?

You see, people believe bullshit.  Following is a video of people who, like you, have deluded themselves. Until you rigorously test your hypothesis, it doesn't mean shit.  People smarter than you actually have tested intecessory prayer, and it fails.

Some instances where belief in bullshit come up against reality.



You are no different than these people.  Sorry.
What's true is already so. Owning up to it does not make it worse.

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #1744 on: July 16, 2017, 10:18:11 AM »
That video was funny in places, tragic in others.

I've practiced martial arts (aiki) for several years, though I'm not particularly good at it.  Never ran into anyone who could use magic chi powers in all that time[1].  It is possible to learn some impressive feats, but they're not based on supernatural powers.

For example, the "unbendable arm" is the same idea as how it's harder to bend a hose with water flowing through it than an empty hose.  You just push out with your arm, and it makes it harder for someone to bend the elbow.  Same thing with a finger or a leg, really.  When you get right down to it, real martial arts are based on similar principles, things the body can actually do, since they're based on ways people actually fought.  Go into a fight with the idea that you can use magic powers (whether you call them chi or ki or qi or whatever) and you'll be lucky if all that happens is ending up flat on your back, wondering what hit you.
 1. I did get a good laugh at the ad my sensei showed us once about the "tenth degree dragon belt ninja master" who promised to teach people how to use "throwing sharps" and a "bow staff".  Oh, and an uzi.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2017, 10:20:56 AM by jaimehlers »
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Offline kaziglu bey

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #1745 on: July 18, 2017, 04:44:41 PM »
Hi there
On the topic of this chat:
If I said that I have performed hundreds of miracles and seen hundreds more, what would you say?

I'd say that I have a patient whose wife ran him over with a car, and he had to have his leg amputated. He would love a new one. Can you pray his leg back please? I promise you that if this works, I will convert to Christianity. All you have to do is exactly what you say you do all of the time. When can we arrange this?

I also have a patient who was hit with a chunk of shrapnel in the Persian Gulf War. It went in him crossways, ripping through his ribs and tearing his lung up before becoming embedded in his spine. They were able to remove the shrapnel after tearing him half apart, and he will be in pain the rest of his life without medication. Can you cure this please? He would be grateful.

Or how about this one. Since Jesus clearly states that his followers will do way better shit than he did, and he was able to RAISE PEOPLE FROM THE DEAD, how about resurrecting my son's mom? She was cremated, but that SURELY won't be much of a complication for someone as talented as yourself with a line to the divine. She was destroyed by the abuse done to her by religious people. Maybe you could use your divine powers to bring justice to all of the people that raped her?

See, when you come on and say that you have talents that you KNOW you don't, because you live in the real world, it is repulsive. Because there are PLENTY of people whose sorrow and grief and pain you take advantage of for your own egotistical reasons, making a mocking of their suffering. I honestly don't know what is more despicable than this.
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Offline wheels5894

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #1746 on: July 19, 2017, 03:10:40 AM »
Well, if we are putting in requests for healings.....


How about curing my MS. I was diagnosed in 1984 and a wheelchair user since - hence my avatar. It would be great to have this fixed before my arms start failing and I need a powered wheelchair to get around.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline One Above All

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #1747 on: July 19, 2017, 09:44:46 AM »
My baby cousin could do with some healing too. I prayed every day for it as a believer, but I guess I just wasn't as in-tune with DA LAWD as you are.

I won't hold my breath, you charlatan.
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Offline kaziglu bey

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #1748 on: July 19, 2017, 02:38:11 PM »
Hi again
So Firstly I'm Christian
My Condolences.
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so that might clear a few things up
Actually, it barely clears anything up at all. I remember Christopher Hitchens saying in a debate once that he had come to find that he would have to write a book for every single religious person he  met, because even among members of the same religion, such as "Christianity", there is such a wide breadth of what people ACTUALLY believe. And most people take it a la carte, choosing the bits that confirm to their own world view based on their upbringing, the community they live in, what values they have learned outside their family, what aligns with their politics, etc. When someone says "I'm a Christian" I literally know almost nothing about what they believe except that they probably believe a dude named Jesus was nailed to a cross. After that, it's never really safe to assume what someone means by that.

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I'm 18 with no money
Jesus was an unemployed, homeless, wandering beggar. Your excuse reeks of indolence.


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Lol, the whole free will argument like that is dumb,
How so? Christians often assert that we have free will, and that the reason God doesn't conclusively demonstrate his powers is that it would violate people's free will, but then they also assert that God and Jesus used to do conclusive demonstrations of miraculous power all of the time, and that totally did not violate free will. You are 18 so I assume you are not yet in college, I suggest you start with some logic and critical thinking course. But I would agree that the free will argument provided by Christianity is dumb. Of course, if that it not what you think about free will, then that just proves my point about the term "Christian" being meaningless.
 
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  no the reason I'm not going to is from past experience, if I show some sort of media or something, like 99% of the time people will reply with: no that's fake, scripted, etc.
Again another weak excuse. Show a video of you restoring the limb of an amputee, or regenerating a face for someone who needs a face transplant. That would be ludicrously difficult for a broke 18 year old to fake, so I, and probably a few others, would be at minimum impressed by such a demonstration. All we are asking for is clear, conclusive evidence that is objectively measurable, and it has to be something that could ONLY EVER HAPPEN through supernatural phenomena. Going up to a dude limping across the street and doing a laying on of hands and asking if he feels better and he says yes is simply not convincing. Do you know what is causing him to limp? What his diagnosis is? Bad knees, bad back, injury, illness? Did you have them follow up with their physician to see if the condition is completely gone? Where they receiving any other REAL medical treatment? See all I am asking for is the same type of evidence that we would ask for in literally any other situation. Like I said though, I am entirely open to changing my mind given new evidence. It happens all of the time. That's what it is to be a rational person. If you can satisfy the same level of evidence  that would required about any claim about how the universe is, then you will change a lot of minds. I won't hold my breath.


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haha, if only! sadly God isn't quite a pocket God.. (though saying that I do know people who do just that (the hospital thing))
Do I know why that is? No idea, but that's not really something that overly bothers me, I've seen enough to justify my own beliefs, it makes sense when you see lots of it and other things that go along with it
The obvious implication was that if you have miraculous, inexplicable super duper divine healing powers, why aren't you making the most of it by going to those places to heal everyone? I know that if I possessed such powers, I would feel obligated by my duty to my fellow humans to do the absolute most good possible with it. You do not seem inclined to do so.


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Yeah, to a point that's definitely true, I'm asking what you thinks on something you have never seen or think is possible, which is understandable given its not something that many people have seen or are open to.
This sounds like the type of vapid woo that Deepak Chopra is known for, but with a less erudite sounding vocabulary.
"A resurrected person who is also the son of a virgin could still be talking nonsense. There's no logic that says he must be right. " Christopher Hitchens

Offline albeto

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #1749 on: July 19, 2017, 03:45:57 PM »
haha, if only! sadly God isn't quite a pocket God.. (though saying that I do know people who do just that (the hospital thing))
Do I know why that is? No idea, but that's not really something that overly bothers me, I've seen enough to justify my own beliefs, it makes sense when you see lots of it and other things that go along with it

I hope you return to answer the questions asked. I have a few more, if you would care to take the time to answer.

You say your god isn't a "pocket" god. What does this mean? I mean, I can guess what you might mean by it, but I'm wondering what it means to you. What would you want me to know about your god from this? I assume you know more about what it's not that what it is, but can you share anything that you do know it is?

You say you don't know why certain things are the way they are and that doesn't bother. I interpret this to mean you essentially don't care, that you're fine with your interpretation of events and have no more curiosity regarding the circumstances. Are you willing to explore them with someone who does care? For example, I'm curious about how this works, what's the mechanics behind it? I ask because knowing the method would ideally allow one to increase its efficiency, don't you think? As I presume you imagine yourself to be a compassionate person, sympathetic to the pains and sufferings of others, I presume you'd want to help alleviate more pain if possible.

Along those lines, I wonder why you aren't more curious. Why would someone who thinks they have the key to relieving some measure of suffering *not* be interested in increasing their efficiency? Why do you think a sympathetic person might withhold compassion by refusing helping more if indeed it was possible? Do you think it's possible, or have you maxed out your god's ability to help, in your opinion?

You say you've seen things that justify this belief of yours. Have you tested it? Have you, for example, prayed not to Jesus but to Zeus for healing, just to see if the outcome is different? Would you consider praying to Satan, the archangel who gave knowledge to the human race, to give you knowledge to prevent suffering? Would you consider praying to the stars or think hard about certain numerical patterns? What about calling on the spirits of your ancestors? Calling on the powers of a milk jug? I'm just curious how you decide to attribute your experiences to one god when there are so many different, genuinely held beliefs, each one credited for similar, and even greater effects. I'm curious if you've worked out somehow that your beliefs are right, or did your lack of curiosity stop you from pursuing if you're even right?

And lastly, what do you think the function of these events are? What purpose do they serve?