Poll

What is your religious position?

gnostic atheist - I know for certain that there are no gods.
163 (16.3%)
gnostic monotheist - I know for certain that only one specific god exists.
97 (9.7%)
gnostic polytheist - I know for certain that there is more than one god.
4 (0.4%)
gnostic pantheist - I know for certain that that everything is god.
12 (1.2%)
gnostic deist - I know for certain that there is a god that started the universe but does not actively meddle with it or us.
6 (0.6%)
agnostic atheist - I do not know for certain, but I think there are no gods.
291 (29%)
agnostic monotheist - I do not know for certain, but I think only one specific god exists.
24 (2.4%)
agnostic polytheist - I do not know for certain, but I think there is more than one god.
4 (0.4%)
agnostic pantheist - I do not know for certain, but I think that everything is god.
25 (2.5%)
agnostic deist - I do not know for certain, but I think there is a god that started the universe but does not actively meddle with it or us.
39 (3.9%)
ignostic atheist - While the concepts of god(s) are meaningless, it is likely that there are no gods.
90 (9%)
ignostic monotheist - While the concepts of god(s) are meaningless, it is likely that only one specific god exists.
2 (0.2%)
ignostic polytheist - While the concepts of god(s) are meaningless, it is likely that there is more than one god.
1 (0.1%)
ignostic pantheist - While the concepts of god(s) are meaningless, it is likely that that everything is god.
10 (1%)
ignostic deist - While the concepts of god(s) are meaningless, it is likely that there is a god that started the universe but does not actively meddle with it or us.
7 (0.7%)
apnostic atheist - I don't care if there are any gods, but I guess there are no gods.
39 (3.9%)
apnostic monotheist - I don't care if there are any gods, but I guess only one specific god exists.
1 (0.1%)
apnostic polytheist - I don't care if there are any gods, but I guess there is more than one god.
0 (0%)
apnostic pantheist - I don't care if there are any gods, but I guess that everything is god.
7 (0.7%)
apnostic deist - I don't care if there are any gods, but I guess there is a god that started the universe but does not actively meddle with it or us.
8 (0.8%)
Any type of henotheist - There (may be/is only) more than one god, but I think of only one specific god.
8 (0.8%)
I am a god!  [checks self in mirror and grins]
83 (8.3%)
Missionary.
30 (3%)
So! Many! Choices! (Karma Sutra)
52 (5.2%)

Total Members Voted: 656

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Offline shnozzola

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Re: What is your religious position?
« Reply #812 on: August 03, 2018, 09:45:12 PM »
Also, here is the tree.

Everyone should be able to find their one true religion.



http://www.the40foundation.org/world-religions-tree.html
We have guided missiles and misguided men.  ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.

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Offline albeto

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Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
« Reply #813 on: August 04, 2018, 11:35:54 AM »
This is correct. The writers of the Bible mentions many gods and goddesses. Some true and some false.

How does one confirm which god is true?

The Hebrew word for god, El, and it's variations, means simply mighty and / or venerated. Jesus was prophetically referred to as a mighty god, (El Gibbohr Isaiah 9:6), the judges of Israel were called gods, (Elohim / Greek theoi este Latin dii estis Psalm 82:1,6 / John 10:34-35), Moses was made a God to Pharaoh by Jehovah God (Hebrew lelohim Greek theon Latin Deum Exodus 4:16; 7:1)

Interesting interpretation. So "god" just means mighty? Are dinosaurs gods? Olympic champions? My mom?

A god can be anyone or anything attributed might or venerated. Seems sort of silly to say that there are no gods, doesn't it?

So then "god" isn't a thing, it's a modifier of a thing.

Online Dictionary definition of gods

1. (in Christianity and other monotheistic religions) the creator and ruler of the universe and source of all moral authority; the supreme being.

My mom didn't do that.

2. (in certain other religions) a superhuman being or spirit worshiped as having power over nature or human fortunes; a deity.
B) an image, idol, animal, or other object worshiped as divine or symbolizing a god.
c) used as a conventional personification of fate.
3. an adored, admired, or influential person.
B) a thing accorded the supreme importance appropriate to a god.
4. the gallery in a theater, or the people seated there.

Generally, we have discussions here with people who refer to God in the biblical sense, Yahweh morphed into the Trinity. Most people don't refer to God as an image, or an idol, or an animal, or an influential person, just the character from the Western bible

As Paul said, even ones own belly could be a god. (Romans 16:18 / Philippians 3:18-19)

For reference:

Romans 16:18 For such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the minds of naive people.

Philippians 3:18-19  For, as I have often told you before and now tell you again even with tears, many live as enemies of the cross of Christ. Their destiny is destruction, their god is their stomach, and their glory is in their shame. Their mind is set on earthly things.

I think you misunderstand "appetites" in the first one, but the point is taken. Interesting how the gods in Moses' day weren't stomachs but understood to be active deities with powers more or less equal to Yahweh. I think this is a great illustration of the evolution of the religion from a polytheistic one to a monotheistic one. The very gods that were threats to Yahweh and his followers eventually were relegated to allegories. This is typical in religion. As secular information and ethics replace religious declarations and morals, the old declarations are demoted to allegories and the old morals are locked up in time, not to be considered appropriate any more.

Offline clip11

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Re: What is your religious position?
« Reply #814 on: August 04, 2018, 12:31:18 PM »
I am a God!!! 8)

Offline Nick

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Re: What is your religious position?
« Reply #815 on: August 04, 2018, 12:46:07 PM »
Praise Clip.  I would like a pony.
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

Tide goes in, tide goes out !!!

Offline Angel

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Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
« Reply #816 on: August 04, 2018, 02:55:59 PM »
How does one confirm which god is true?

Well, true could be a subjective term when it comes to a possibly abstract concept like god. To a man who stumbles across the cold plains a pile of dried bovine excrement could be his god, supplying fire for protection, light, warmth, not to mention the creeping things that lie beneath that could be eaten. To someone else it may just be some bullshit.

I've studied the brief histories of the major religions, Buddhism, Christianity, Confucianism, Hinduism, Islam, Judaism, Shintoism and Taoism. I've read many of the sacred texts. The Dhammapada, Four Noble Truths, Gospel Of Buddha, The Bible, Analects of Confusius, Mencius, Baghavad Gita, Quran, Pirqe Aboth, Nihongi, Kojiki, Tao Te Ching and Chuang Tzu. Most of them don't have anything to say about God, and other than the Abrahamic religions there are no substantial claims of creation. (see my website for further, but brief examination). 

The true God is the one above all the others who proves to you his promise etc is true. If you want to be a part of that promise, then follow, but if not, then forget about it. Acts 24:15 says there will be a resurrection of the unrighteous as well as the righteous. What does that mean? Romans 6:7 says that he has died has been acquitted of his sin, so he can't be punished forever in hell. These two scriptures mean that those who have not had the opportunity to be introduced to the true God will have the opportunity to choose between the true God once they are told of him, and those who choose to reject god simply are asleep in death. 

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Interesting interpretation. So "god" just means mighty? Are dinosaurs gods? Olympic champions? My mom?

Yep. Eric Clapton is a god. Frodo Baggins is a god. Real or imagined. Human or supernatural. Quixotic or mundane.

Quote
So then "god" isn't a thing, it's a modifier of a thing.

Grammatically? Use modifier in a sentence. A god is a person or thing. Uh . . . I don't believe in Zeus. I don't worship Zeus. Zeus doesn't exist. Zeus is a god. 



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My mom didn't do that.

Generally, we have discussions here with people who refer to God in the biblical sense, Yahweh morphed into the Trinity. Most people don't refer to God as an image, or an idol, or an animal, or an influential person, just the character from the Western bible.

Well, there's some confusion due primarily from the Masoretic scribes having removed the personal name of God and replaced it with the generic term LORD, stylized with all upper case. So most people think saying goddamn is using God's name in vain. It isn't. God isn't a name it's a title. Like Lord, which means someone with authority, usually but not always granted by another. Landlord.  There was a time when the name Jehovah was being used for a common name and misapplied in ways like that. That is using God's name in vain. the scribes began removing the name to prevent the common people from abusing it. It was a wrong move. The name is very important.

Quote
For reference:

Romans 16:18 For such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the minds of naive people.

Philippians 3:18-19  For, as I have often told you before and now tell you again even with tears, many live as enemies of the cross of Christ. Their destiny is destruction, their god is their stomach, and their glory is in their shame. Their mind is set on earthly things.

I think you misunderstand "appetites" in the first one, but the point is taken. Interesting how the gods in Moses' day weren't stomachs but understood to be active deities with powers more or less equal to Yahweh. I think this is a great illustration of the evolution of the religion from a polytheistic one to a monotheistic one. The very gods that were threats to Yahweh and his followers eventually were relegated to allegories. This is typical in religion. As secular information and ethics replace religious declarations and morals, the old declarations are demoted to allegories and the old morals are locked up in time, not to be considered appropriate any more.

Well,  I doubt it. Most of those types of suppositions are based on the premise that it's all a fairy tale. If the skeptic broadened their approach while maintaining integrity they would perhaps examine the hypothetical proposition that the alleged texts were real the type of supposition you are making becomes less plausible.

An example of this is a sort of scientific approach to the book of Revelation. Science might tend to try and explain it by assuming it was written by a superstitious and ignorant people afraid of eclipses and asteroids, when in fact it is symbolic for political and social upheaval similar to the prophets of old who used the same symbolism to describe the political and social upheaval of Jerusalem in their time which was just on a smaller scale than Revelation.
"Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty." - Frank Herbert, Chapterhouse: Dune

Offline Angel

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Re: What is your religious position?
« Reply #817 on: August 04, 2018, 02:57:10 PM »
I am a God!!! 8)

A self proclaimed God? Okay. Fair enough.
"Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty." - Frank Herbert, Chapterhouse: Dune

Offline albeto

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Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
« Reply #818 on: August 04, 2018, 03:11:15 PM »
Well, true could be a subjective term when it comes to a possibly abstract concept like god. To a man who stumbles across the cold plains a pile of dried bovine excrement could be his god, supplying fire for protection, light, warmth, not to mention the creeping things that lie beneath that could be eaten. To someone else it may just be some bullshit.

I've studied the brief histories of the major religions, Buddhism, Christianity, Confucianism, Hinduism, Islam, Judaism, Shintoism and Taoism. I've read many of the sacred texts. The Dhammapada, Four Noble Truths, Gospel Of Buddha, The Bible, Analects of Confusius, Mencius, Baghavad Gita, Quran, Pirqe Aboth, Nihongi, Kojiki, Tao Te Ching and Chuang Tzu. Most of them don't have anything to say about God, and other than the Abrahamic religions there are no substantial claims of creation. (see my website for further, but brief examination). 

The true God is the one above all the others who proves to you his promise etc is true. If you want to be a part of that promise, then follow, but if not, then forget about it. Acts 24:15 says there will be a resurrection of the unrighteous as well as the righteous. What does that mean? Romans 6:7 says that he has died has been acquitted of his sin, so he can't be punished forever in hell. These two scriptures mean that those who have not had the opportunity to be introduced to the true God will have the opportunity to choose between the true God once they are told of him, and those who choose to reject god simply are asleep in death. 

In all this, you avoided answering my question.
 
Well,  I doubt it. Most of those types of suppositions are based on the premise that it's all a fairy tale. If the skeptic broadened their approach while maintaining integrity they would perhaps examine the hypothetical proposition that the alleged texts were real the type of supposition you are making becomes less plausible.

What?

Offline Angel

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Re: What is your religious position? (Now with *Henotheism!* ... hmmm.)
« Reply #819 on: August 04, 2018, 08:49:19 PM »
In all this, you avoided answering my question.


How do you confirm your insurance agent as true?
 
Well,  I doubt it. Most of those types of suppositions are based on the premise that it's all a fairy tale. If the skeptic broadened their approach while maintaining integrity they would perhaps examine the hypothetical proposition that the alleged texts were real the type of supposition you are making becomes less plausible.

Quote
What?

Most of the secular explanations for the reasoning behind making of the creation gods don't make a great deal of sense. They don't add up. They are simply failed logical approaches stemming from a gross underestimation of primitive people.
"Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty." - Frank Herbert, Chapterhouse: Dune

Offline albeto

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Re: What is your religious position?
« Reply #820 on: August 04, 2018, 09:18:31 PM »
^^^ I feel like you're trying to sound deep or spiritual or something, but I'm afraid it's going over my head. I ask how one might confirm a given god in the bible is a true god ("insurance agent"?) and you reply one should "broadened their approach while maintaining integrity." Can you be more specific? What approach should be broadened here? For example, if you were to write instructions for an objective third party to put this to the test, what might those instructions look like?
« Last Edit: August 04, 2018, 09:22:01 PM by albeto »

Offline Angel

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Re: What is your religious position?
« Reply #821 on: August 04, 2018, 09:42:41 PM »
^^^ I feel like you're trying to sound deep or spiritual or something, but I'm afraid it's going over my head. I ask how one might confirm a given god in the bible is a true god ("insurance agent"?) and you reply one should "broadened their approach while maintaining integrity." Can you be more specific? What approach should be broadened here? For example, if you were to write instructions for an objective third party to put this to the test, what might those instructions look like?

An insurance agent is deep and spiritual? What is a true God. One that is true. In order to confirm this examine the Bible with an open mind. Ok, I take it you were a former Christian. That doesn't necessarily mean much. You probably were taught bad people go to hell. Jesus died on a cross. The soul either goes to heaven or hell forever. Silly nonsense like that. First, you have to get past all of that, I would think. As an skeptic you probably think that the Bible says the earth is flat, the universe was created in 6 literal days. Silly nonsense like that. You have to get rid of that. IF they are in fact silliness. But that's just clearing your head of nonsensical preconceptions. What other obstacles might be in your way? The supernatural. Then you can move on to establishing whether or not there is any truth to Jehovah God. Much the same as you would establish the true or false nature of an insurance agent. If He promises does he deliver? Does he lie? Can he deliver what he promises? 

And just because Jehovah God comes out looking like a true God in your eyes doesn't mean that you approve of him or want to be a part of what he promises. It may be that you don't. You are under no obligation upon discovering his true existence.   
"Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty." - Frank Herbert, Chapterhouse: Dune

Offline albeto

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Re: What is your religious position?
« Reply #822 on: August 04, 2018, 10:13:19 PM »
An insurance agent is deep and spiritual?

You say insurance agent, and I think Geico. We're not connecting. Can you be more concrete for me?

What is a true God.

I don't know. That's the point of this line of inquiry. Upthread you gave a lot of silly, or were they supposed to be profound, answers. None of them answered the question for anyone but you. But I'm not you. If you wish for me to understand, you'll have to appeal to information I can relate to. I cannot read your mind, feel your thoughts, and bask in your faith. Try to be specific, if you can.

One that is true.

Circular reasoning, and pretty much on the level of SpongeBob philosophy. I mean, come on. Throw me a bone here.

In order to confirm this examine the Bible with an open mind. Ok, I take it you were a former Christian. That doesn't necessarily mean much. You probably were taught bad people go to hell. Jesus died on a cross. The soul either goes to heaven or hell forever. Silly nonsense like that. First, you have to get past all of that, I would think. As an skeptic you probably think that the Bible says the earth is flat, the universe was created in 6 literal days. Silly nonsense like that. You have to get rid of that. IF they are in fact silliness. But that's just clearing your head of nonsensical preconceptions.

Fair enough. I'm thinking of an objective observer, someone without any stake in this concept, one who is simply looking for information. I can absolutely suppress what I might have been taught or learned, even academically. Let's get to the bottom of this.

What other obstacles might be in your way? The supernatural. Then you can move on to establishing whether or not there is any truth to Jehovah God.

I understand you to suggest first I have to accept the existence of the supernatural, and then can I determine if Jehovah God is the most likely explanation.

Much the same as you would establish the true or false nature of an insurance agent. If He promises does he deliver? Does he lie? Can he deliver what he promises? 

Okay, you mean insurance agent like some kind of spiritual being? Is this a euphemism for a god? For Jehovah God specifically?

And just because Jehovah God comes out looking like a true God in your eyes doesn't mean that you approve of him or want to be a part of what he promises. It may be that you don't. You are under no obligation upon discovering his true existence.   

Fair enough. It sounds to me as if your methodology, terribly simplified is this:

Read founding documents of Xian religion.
Study said documents (history, interpretation, culture, analysis, what other's have suggested, etc etc).
Pray.
Analyze events.

More or less, is this about right?


Offline Angel

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Re: What is your religious position?
« Reply #823 on: August 04, 2018, 11:16:48 PM »
You say insurance agent, and I think Geico. We're not connecting. Can you be more concrete for me?

Are you trying to fuck with me?! Or are you greatly over thinking? To determine if a God is true or false is much the same as trying to determine if anything is true or false. It either is true or false to it's claims.

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I don't know. That's the point of this line of inquiry. Upthread you gave a lot of silly, or were they supposed to be profound, answers. None of them answered the question for anyone but you. But I'm not you. If you wish for me to understand, you'll have to appeal to information I can relate to. I cannot read your mind, feel your thoughts, and bask in your faith. Try to be specific, if you can.

I don't know how much much more specific I can be. Either Jehovah God is true to his word, able and willing to deliver on his promises, and has demonstrated this trustworthiness in the past or he has proved false to it.

One that is true.

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Circular reasoning, and pretty much on the level of SpongeBob philosophy. I mean, come on. Throw me a bone here.


Well, that's alright, I ain't proud. If Spongebob works then Spongebob will do the trick.

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Fair enough. I'm thinking of an objective observer, someone without any stake in this concept, one who is simply looking for information. I can absolutely suppress what I might have been taught or learned, even academically. Let's get to the bottom of this.

You are the objective observer. The skeptic. Though you won't find anyone without a stake in this concept, you can be simply looking for information at this point. You don't necessarily need to suppress what you have learned, just be open to the possibility that it wasn't accurate. Or maybe it was, I don't know.

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I understand you to suggest first I have to accept the existence of the supernatural, and then can I determine if Jehovah God is the most likely explanation.

No. I don't think you have to accept the supernatural right away, but rather eventually you will have to come to grips with what it means to be supernatural and take an objective look at the possibility. This might be contrary to your academic pursuit of a truth that can't possibly be tested by scientific means. Like most things can't be.

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Okay, you mean insurance agent like some kind of spiritual being? Is this a euphemism for a god? For Jehovah God specifically?

Now I know you are messing with me.

Quote
Fair enough. It sounds to me as if your methodology, terribly simplified is this:

Read founding documents of Xian religion.
Study said documents (history, interpretation, culture, analysis, what other's have suggested, etc etc).
Pray.
Analyze events.

More or less, is this about right?

Well, I suppose. If that works for you. Don't over complicate it. What would you expect to find in reading founding documents of the Christian religion? What are those documents, the Bible? How reliable are history, interpretation, culture, analysis and commentary? All of those things are subjective, imperfect, subject to error. Do you have to be absolutely certain and possess 100% accurate knowledge, which would be unreasonable in just about any search for truth.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2018, 11:19:21 PM by Angel »
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Offline albeto

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Re: What is your religious position?
« Reply #824 on: August 05, 2018, 10:50:34 AM »
Are you trying to fuck with me?!

Lighten up, Francis.

It either is true or false to it's claims.

Makes much more sense than, "What is a true God. One that is true." That was a meaningless sentiment I suspect you thought would sound deep or profound. This answer is unambiguous, so thank you.

I don't know how much much more specific I can be. Either Jehovah God is true to his word, able and willing to deliver on his promises, and has demonstrated this trustworthiness in the past or he has proved false to it.

This is helpful. If we are looking at an entity that is "true to his word, able and willing to deliver on his promises, and has demonstrated this trustworthiness," then it's simple. Thus far no evidence to support this has ever been found.

No. I don't think you have to accept the supernatural right away, but rather eventually you will have to come to grips with what it means to be supernatural and take an objective look at the possibility.

So what does it mean to be supernatural? How would one who is limited to the natural realm explore and study what is supernatural? All our instruments to observe and measure effects would observe and measure natural phenomenon, so in what way would the supernatural be isolated and identified?

When a natural explanation suffices, would one still look at the possibility of a supernatural component? Can you share an example of a phenomenon for which a natural explanation does not work but a supernatural one might? It would have to be more than prayer, guidance, or comfort, which have all been explained through natural means.

This might be contrary to your academic pursuit of a truth that can't possibly be tested by scientific means. Like most things can't be.

If this entity made claims, they should be identifiable, as should testing them through scientific means. Using scientific means only means relying on an objective methodology. There's no trickery there.

Well, I suppose. If that works for you. Don't over complicate it.

It's as simple as I can make it. Let me ask you this, why do you think this process is unreliable in general for the Xian faith, much less for other religions? How would you confirm your conclusions to be right?

What would you expect to find in reading founding documents of the Christian religion?

I suppose the claims you were talking about for starters - Jehovah God's word, his promises, what he's supposed to have accomplished.

Do you have to be absolutely certain and possess 100% accurate knowledge

No.

Offline Emma286

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Re: What is your religious position?
« Reply #825 on: August 05, 2018, 11:12:58 AM »
Is Angel Francis from IGI?

Offline albeto

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Re: What is your religious position?
« Reply #826 on: August 05, 2018, 11:23:15 AM »
Is Angel Francis from IGI?

No, sorry, it's a reference from the movie Stripes. In his introduction, Angel reminded me of Francis a bit when he said,

I try to get along with everybody, and listen to what you have to say. I may disagree with you but there's no reason we can't get along, unless you just want to be an asshole, in which case I may or may not be in the mood to humor you.

Introducing oneself as a tough guy always reminds me of Francis. I mean, good grief, we're just talking.

Offline Emma286

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Re: What is your religious position?
« Reply #827 on: August 05, 2018, 12:12:33 PM »
Ah, understood!