Hello...Please read and resond to this message. [#1483]

[DL]

Okay GIIVideo...

It's apparent that you claim to find many faults with the bible and Christianity. You cited the verse in the Old Testament/ Book of Exodus that if anyone is found working on the Sabbath it was written that the offender of that law should be put to death. Yes, your right. There were indeed very severe penalties for the people of Israel (to whom this law applied) if they were found breaking these laws. But what I would suggest is that you need to read ALL OF THE BOOKS OF THE OLD TESTAMENT to truly understand were the laws were coming from (that is, if you havent read them already). In my opinion, the reason why the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob was so severe was/is because when he delivered the Israelites from Egypt and swore Himself to be their God and for them to be His people and nation...He basically said it would be on His Terms and done His Way. Reason being...this would be His "New Nation" that would represent Him and be an example of GOD to the rest of the other people throughout the world. Many of the things that God strictly forbid the people of Israel from doing (such as theft, adultery,sodomy, inscest, murder, witchcraft, swindeling, usery, human sacrifice, the practice of pagan religions/ worship of pagan gods) were what the other people of the then-known world were doing and practicing during the time of Moses and the Exodus. When The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob delivered the descendents of these Men (ie, the Hebrews/Israelites) from Egypt...he made an agreement (ie, Covenent) with them that he would continue to protect, provide, and guide them to a good land to call there own home (ie, The Promises Land in Canaan...know today as Israel and Palestine)....but this agreement was NOT unconditional. Yes, as you said, the book of Exodus does specify certain laws and yes many of them carried a death penalty if they were broken. Yes, I agree with you...this did and does sound as very severe punishment for what seem to be rather trivial transgressions. So perhaps your wondering why such severity?? The answer is that the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob was and still is not one to make a mockery and fool of. He is a caring and protective God....but he is also a very jealous and angry God when provoked, disobeyed, and/or when mocked....especially when the Israelites did this in full view of the surrounding Nations that God specifically commanded His people (Israel) not to do....and God was and still is certainly not above cutting off and destroying any person or people who continually disobeyed him. And this is EXACTLY what eventually led to Jesus Christ's death on the Cross. God Himself demanded and ordered to have HIS own Son MURDERED AND KILLED because Jesus took full responsibility for all the sin, disobediance, and evil that occured in Israel and he paid the ultimate price and consequences for that with his own life. The reason Christ HAD to die on the cross was because the Law of Moses (under which the Israelites lived) specifically demanded a death penalty for breaking those laws. God demanded and ordered His Son's death on the cross because God has ABSOLUTELY ZERO TOLERANCE FOR SIN AND DISOBEDIANCE TO HIS LAWS!! Yes...it's that simple. You break only ONE of God's laws (should you live under the Laws of Moses) and chances are very good you will pay for it with your life. Now, either you can pay for it....or you can accept the fact the Christ died and paid the cost of those sins for you....or you can chose not to believe in Christ. It's really up to you. I'm not going to try to change your mind and/or make your mind for you...I'm sure you've heard the Gospel many times and only you can chose (or not chose) to except that as truth. My reason for presenting this explaination-in-a-nutshell is so that you'll possibly understand how Judeaism, Christianity, and the Bible work the way they do. If you have any questions, comments, or remarks concerning this conversation....please feel free to do so. Thanks

[William]

....or you can accept the fact the Christ died and paid the cost of those sins for you....

Sorry, I don't get it.  Why would god kill himself to forgive me?  It just does not make sense. 
I can't relate to it.  If god wanted me to understand he'd do something I can relate to. 

I've had many people try to manipulate me into a guilt trip by telling me they've done things for me even though I didn't ask.  I'm not talking about surprise thoughtful gifts or acts of kindness - it's those times when it's really about them wanting me to owe something in return.  To obtain a hold over me.  Politicians, high pressure salespeople, relatives I don't like, god, and religious people who feel so superior to me.  It never earns my respect - generally it makes me distrust them. 

And then hey presto! Look a couple of days later Jesus "rises" from the dead, and knew he would all along.  So he didn't die anyway.

Please come onto the forum and explain.

[Ananukia]

Tell me why god could not accomplish this himself? Isn't he all powerful?

[Nick]

Silly, God died because of a plan he made Himself.  How many times do we have to explain how silly this is?  Plus, it is part of all the other god-man myth religions that came before this latest one.  All gods are man made and therefore are all imaginary.  You are an adult (I guess).  You don't need imaginary men in the sky to explain life to you.

[Nick]

I saw this some time ago.  I think Vynn posted it first.  Here goes, "God sacrificed Himself to Himself to exploit a loophole that He put in the plan Himself to save us from a terrible lake of fire that He made Himself that He Himself makes everyone go to if the don't believe that God sacrificed Himself to Himself to exploit a loophole in the plan He made Himself to save us from a fire that He made Himself".

And we are suppose to understand all this along with a talking snake.  Isn't religion fun!!!   I don't know why scientists just don't admit that God did it and give up trying to find answers about life and all the rest.

[kin hell]

My brother shot a bible once.

[GotMooo]

The answer is that the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob was and still is not one to make a mockery and fool of. He is a caring and protective God....but he is also a very jealous and angry God when provoked, disobeyed, and/or when mocked....

How can you not see how petty this is?  The authors of this deity clearly were SPAGing (Self-Projection-As-God).  Why is it that you would even take it as a possibility that us skeptics might believe in such utter bullshit?  The gods in the Quran and the Bible are some of the most cruel, sadistic beings man has ever invented.  These gods are the voice of men who hate freedom, knowledge, women, homosexuals, certain clothing, certain foods, and etc.

It would be easy to speculate that there was a man/men in a cave(s) during the ancient wars that thought to themselves, "I'd like there to be a God who is on my side and will kill all my enemies and do any cruel thing I want and control the masses".  Clearly seeing how religion and government were one back in the iron/bronze ages, you can see how men would invent gods (the very basis for a religion) that would very effectively control the population.  If you can control information, you can control people.

[Dkit]

the reason why the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob was so severe was/is because when he delivered the Israelites from Egypt

There is zero evidence that this story happened.  No evidences of Hebrew slaves building pyramids, no evidence of a million people roaming the dessert for 40 years, etc.  If there is nothing to support this story then your entire explaination needs reworked. 

The answer is that the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob was and still is not one to make a mockery and fool of. He is a caring and protective God....but he is also a very jealous and angry God when provoked, disobeyed, and/or when mocked....

It sounds like God is bipolar.

God Himself demanded and ordered to have HIS own Son MURDERED AND KILLED because Jesus took full responsibility for all the sin, disobediance, and evil that occured in Israel and he paid the ultimate price and consequences for that with his own life. The reason Christ HAD to die on the cross

An all-powerful God who had an eternity to map out a plan for humans, couldn't come up with something better than sacrificing himself to himself to save us from laws that he himself set up?  If Jesus took on all sin then there would be nothing left for anyone do to, but, that isn't how it's set up.  There's church, repenting, tithing, worship, prayer, choosing faith over reality, etc.  What difference would this life make to Jesus anyway since he would ultimately end up in heaven?  It would have more impressive if he had descended to hell and stayed there, thus relieving all humanity of said punishment.  Also, blood sacrifice?  Come on, sounds rather cultish.

[GotMooo]

It would have more impressive if he had descended to hell and stayed there, thus relieving all humanity of said punishment.

Indeed.  Jesus had everything going for him and he died on a cross and went to hell for 3 days?  There are children who go through much worse than dying on a cross.  He quickly went back to controlling the universe and living at his estate in paradise, not much of a loss.  A real sacrifice would be if Jesus were in hell for eternity, or at least a very long time.

[hickdive]

Yes, to pick up the above post. If god can make the universe in six days (ok, he apparently found it a little tiring and needed a day off afterwards) why is it such a big deal to come down, spend less than a blink of any eye on earth (in terms of the age of the universe), die and then bugger off back to heaven?

It's not particularly impressive is it? It's like some big-name magician coming on stage in Vegas and trying to impress by inhaling and exhaling, in the right order. As far as I can see 'dying' for our sins isn't much above 'stubbing one's toe' for our sins, if you're god.

Nah, dying means a lot to us humans but on the cosmic scale it's peanuts. Which rather makes you think that the bible was written by humans for humans rather than being written by humans inspired by god.

[VredesStal]

Sorry, I don't get it.  Why would god kill himself to forgive me?  It just does not make sense.  
I can't relate to it.  If god wanted me to understand he'd do something I can relate to.



To answer your question...Although Christ was/is a part of the Holy Trinity...God did not literally kill HIMSELF...obvioulsly he was still on the throne when His Son died on the cross, so you do have two
different individuals:  God The Father on the Throne...and His Son that descended from Heaven and
became a flesh and blood man.  The reason God required the killing of his Son is that, again, you have to
go back to the laws of Moses to know why this was required.  In the days of the Laws of Moses, there would be no forgiveness of sins and disobedience without the shedding of blood.  In the case of the Israelites (once they has a nation had their covenent with God) this "blood-payment sacrifice" took the form of the killing and of male sheep or lambs.  Instead of the sinner being killed for his sins (which is what should have happened) God only required that a male lamb be sacrificed instead. Overtime, the people of Israel began taking much of what God for them for granted and began rejecting God and the requirements he demanded of them....and the quality of the sacrifices they offered to them became more and more substandered.  This is what led God to having his people (the Israelites) being forced off the land of Canaan.  Since his people would not obey him....He saw to it that they would no longer live there and they went from being God's people to becoming slaves of the Babylonians, Persians, and later were exiled by the Romans for their constant disobediance.

Because the substitute lamb sacrifices were no longer effective...God required a better sacrifice.
Why?? because according to God's laws that were given by Moses...there had to be shedding of blood to remove sin.  In other words...someone had to die....either the sheep...or the sinner.  Since God apparenetley valued the life of the sinner....he found it acceptable to have the innocent sheep killed instead of the man who committed the sin.


You also said, "If God wanted me to understand, He do something I could relate to"...


I agree with you.  God did do something that you could "relate to" when his Son came down to Earth and became a Man just like the rest of us. This was a way of God "putting his money were his mouth is".
And because Jesus became a Man (instead of, let's say, a sheep)...this was why his death became
the satisfactory sacrifice that God was demanding.  Instead of becomming just another sacrifical sheep...Christ became a Man and died as a man in our place.

As far as...."Why didnt Christ just stay and remain in Hell for the Rest of us for all time??".


If you were to break out of prison....would you just stay there??

I'm assuming your answer is no.

So if Christ DEFEATED death, hell, and the grave....
Why would you think he would just stay and remain there??

How could he claim to be "victorious" if he just stayed there??

The whole point of "proving" your "not dead" as Christ did is coming back at after you died.

Which is what Christ did 3 days after he died (just as the Nation of Israel entered the Promised Land
on 3 different times).

Before he ascended back into heaven...he gave his Apostles and Disciples their marching orders
to go out into the rest of the world and to preach the Gospel.  And yes, he warned them ahead of
time that he would be sending them out as "Sheep among Wolves".....

...meaning that they world hated and attacked Christ and that they would be hated, attacked, and killed for preaching the truth.

It certainly doesnt sound like Christ was trying to sugar-coat or BS anybody if
 he said that they could easily die or get killed preaching his gospel.


I saw another question that asked, "Why doesnt God accomplish this by himself...
Isnt he all powerful??".

Yes, God is all-powerful.  This is why He and his Son were able to defeat death, hell, and the Grave once and for all.  That means that only God and his Son get all the credit for mankind's salvation and no one else (provided they accept Christ as the one who died for their sins).

Of course, if you or anybody else think that you can defeat death, hell, or the grave on your own
or perform any the acts and miracles that were performed by God and Christ...

...I personally challenge any of you to try that....and we'll see just successfull you really are.


Now, because God is all-powerful....that doesn't mean that God is somekind of "Bell-boy" who's going to come off his thrown and jump threw your hoops just so he can get you to believe in him.

I mean, think about it.  What's the point of being God if every run down schmuck could come along and tell him what to do just so he could prove his existance to you??

IMO...I think God has been quite the Gentleman.  Think about it...
Has God himself ever pounded on your door and DEMANDED that you believe in him??
No, of course he hasnt.  Only other people have tried to "force" you to think their way.
So, why do you blame God for their actions??

However....Although God is All-powerful doesnt mean he's going to do your job for you.
You do have a grey-matter between your ears as well as common sense and he does
expect you to use it.  That also means that a failure to plan on your part doesnt
require and emergency on His part.  If you set your house on fire doesnt mean God's going
to come down off his thrown and put it for you.

Even Christ refused Satan's challenge to jump off a cliff in the hope that
angles would rescue him.  Even God's Son knew better than to provoke His Father.


As far as the "Authors of the bible projecting themselves as God"....

Show me one book or one passage in the bible were this is the case.  Moses wrote the first five books of the bible and there is no place were he even tried to project himself as God.  In fact, when God called on him to lead his people out of slavery in Egypt...that was not something that Moses jumped into right away.  In fact, at first, he was rather reluctant and didnt want to do it.  

As for as the other Authors/ Leaders of the Old Testament such as Moses, Joshua, Samuel, King David, King Solomon, Job, Daniel, Ezekiel, Isahiah and the 12 prophets....

....there is not ONE person who tried to set themselves up as God.  In fact, the Israelites were a people who (like the rest of us here) were very skeptical of anyone who tried to act or claim to be God.  This is the exact kind of attitudes that Christ ran head first into when he said he was the Son of God and the Jewish Pharisees immidiately lableled him as a liar, drunkard, mad-man, fool, and heretic and demanded his arrest and death...and eventually they got it.

Wether or not the idead of "blood sacrifice" sounds "rather cultish"....

Hey, that was the Law given to Moses and the people of Israel.
If you have a problem with it...take up with God.
He set up the rules...not me.

Ultimately, everyone here had free will to choose what they believe....

You make that choice....
God wont make it for you.

[Emily]

As far as the "Authors of the bible projecting themselves as God"....

SPAGing is kind of like saying the writers of the bible included their own thoughts when writing the book that they wrote. Since there is no evidence for god and no solid evidence for Jesus, it is safe to say that the writers of the bible were writing their own feelings and thoughts towards certain situations. The idea of god is all in their mind and in the books that they write they are projecting their thoughts onto the pages.

No one is saying that the authors of the bible were trying to set themselves up as god. They were just writing their own desires and giving god their own values.

You make that choice....
God wont make it for you.

Good. I like to do things my own way; make my own choices.

[Dkit]

Wether or not the idead of "blood sacrifice" sounds "rather cultish"....

Hey, that was the Law given to Moses and the people of Israel.
If you have a problem with it...take up with God.
He set up the rules...not me.

You missed the point.  It sounds just like other religious cultures which claimed their god needed a blood sacrifice to appease it/them.  The bible was not written in a vaccum, nor were many of the writers' ideas/stories/laws original to them.  They can be seen in other surrounding cultures centuries before the bible was written.

Of course, if you or anybody else think that you can defeat death,

Um, no, that would be religious folks.  When I die, I will cease to exist.  We aren't the ones who believe we will live on AFTER we die. 

Has God himself ever pounded on your door and DEMANDED that you believe in him??
No, of course he hasnt.  Only other people

This is true for anything in our world.  God is nowhere to be found.  He is credited as having a hand in the events of this world, yet he is completely undetectable by any observer.  People make things happen, good or bad.

[VredesStal]

Quote from Emily:
They were just writing their own desires and giving god their own values.:


So what you're saying is that they we're enslaved for 400 years, wandered in the desert for 40 years,
were invaded and sent into slavery by the babylonians, Persians, and Romans....

...All because that was their desire to be treated that way or because
that's exactly what they wanted to happen to them??

Did it ever occur to you they wrote it down and recorded it because that's
exactly how they saw it happen??

Quote:
Good. I like to do things my own way; make my own choices.

...Did God ever say that you didn't have a free-will??


Quote from Hickdive:
If god can make the universe in six days why is it such a big deal to come down, spend less than a blink of any eye on earth (in terms of the age of the universe), die and then bugger off back to heaven?

It's not particularly impressive is it? It's like some big-name magician coming on stage in Vegas and trying to impress by inhaling and exhaling, in the right order. As far as I can see 'dying' for our sins isn't much above 'stubbing one's toe' for our sins, if you're god.

Nah, dying means a lot to us humans but on the cosmic scale it's peanuts. Which rather makes you think that the bible was written by humans for humans rather than being written by humans inspired by god.

Why are you contradicting yourself??  If these people wrote the bible for their own benefit...
Dont you think that they could've done or acted better than what we see in the bible??
There are examples over and over againg were these people did what they wanted to on their terms
and the consequences they paid for doing that.  There are also many passages in the bible that arent
quite pleasant or nice to read. It is a brutally honest book and does record many actions that these
people did that they probably wouldnt want us to know about.


Also...
When God's Son came down from Heaven to live and die as a man...that's exactly what he was doing.
He didnt come down here to live as a God...but to live as a natural, human-being.  He could've sent Christ down here instantly as a 30 year old man with a beard...but he didnt do that.

God created natural laws and he does not break them.  
He may at times accelerate them....but he does not break them or leap over them.  

That means Christ was carried by Mary for 9 months, he was born, grew up, matured,
and expericanced the life that we as humans experiance as "normal".

And if you think dying isnt such a big deal...maybe you should do yourself in a be done with it...
oh yeah...be sure to let us know what it's like on the other side once you get there.

[Emily]

So what you're saying is that they we're enslaved for 400 years, wandered in the desert for 40 years,
were invaded and sent into slavery by the babylonians, Persians, and Romans....

...All because that was their desire to be treated that way or because
that's exactly what they wanted to happen to them??

OK, ok, ok, I'm just telling you what SPAG means.
We here at WWGHA have our own definitions for things.
See this thread;
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=5767.0
It's the vocabulary of WWGHA.

Ahh yes, they may have been enslaved for all that time, but did they really wander the desert for 40years. I mean, did they? How do you know that they did? Because the bible says so. But seriously, they must not have had any idea what they were doing or where they were going, because it's not going to take you 40 years to walk from Egypt to Israel. It'll probably take a significantly less amount of time to walk the entire length of Africa.

Sure, they were brought from slavery, but they write about how "god" saved them. But really. How do you know that there were seven plagues? Because the bible says so?

Isn't it funny that, whenever talking about the being saved from slavery they manage to bring up god?

Did it ever occur to you they wrote it down and recorded it because that's
exactly how they saw it happen??

How do you know it really happened though? I mean, sure they wrote it down and recorded it, but Plato wrote things too...

Did it ever appear to you that the idea of a god is nothing more than a scapegoat for not understanding existence. At one time in history I personal think that religion did have it's place in society because it provided answers for things to which there were no answers for. But now adays, in the year 2009, religion has no place because we have science to rely on. Evolution, while still a theory, is made up of facts. The big bang, while still a theory, is make up of facts. Those two theories, as well as others, are used to provide answers, at which one time, the bible was.

...Did God ever say that you didn't have a free-will??

What? What are you talking about. You said,
"You make that choice.... God wont make it for you."
And I made a comment on it, a comment that really wasn't meant to be taken by you too seriously. All I'm saying is I'm going to chose my own path in life.  And yeah, it will be influenced by people like my fiance and friends, but all in all, it's going to be final decision which path to follow. I believe in free will; I want people to be able to set their own directions. But what I hate is when people bring god into the equation by saying that, "If you don't follow God's laws, and obey his commandments, you are going to hell!" All the while they say, "but yeah, you have free will".

[VredesStal]

You missed the point.  It sounds just like other religious cultures which claimed their god needed a blood sacrifice to appease it/them.  The bible was not written in a vaccum, nor were many of the writers' ideas/stories/laws original to them.  They can be seen in other surrounding cultures centuries before the bible was written.

Your right.  These people were NOT living in a vacuum and were indeed within the relm and influence of other cultures and their pratices....and no...they were not the oldest culture nor were they the largest with the biggest influence.

This is acknowledged many times throughout the Old Testament....and The God of Israel warned them many times not to get involved with these peoples practices. Now, since you claim that these writer's ideas and LAWS were not original to them....can you please provide me with at least a weblink or something that would demonstrate a group of people that were living under the exact same laws as those of the Israelites. Or if these laws and ideas were not original to these people and came from some other group of people.....can you tell me were they got them....
because that would interest me know where they got them from....if not from God.

Um, no, that would be religious folks.  When I die, I will cease to exist.  We aren't the ones who believe we will live on AFTER we die.

What proof do YOU have that we cease to exist??  How do you know that to be true??  Yes, I'll be the first to admit
that I myself do not know what will happen once I die.  I've never been there....so I dont know and I certainly cant say for certain.  But then again...neither have you.  So how can you say with such certainty you will cease to exist??  What "proof" do you have of that??
 

God is nowhere to be found.  He is credited as having a hand in the events of this world, yet he is completely undetectable by any observer.  People make things happen, good or bad.

As far as God being undetectable...look at the universe around you.  I'm assuming you think the sun, moon, stars, and planets got here one way or another.....As far as you saying "People make things happen"....there's not a single person living or dead that can claim to have created or have had a hand in any of that.
If you think you can do it....try it and see what happens.

As far as I'm concerned...there is just far much organization to this natual world and to the universe and how it's keeping it's self together for me to think that it "just happened by accident" or "by random chance".
It's far to organized and complicated to be explained away like that.

And no, the big-bang theory doesnt quite wash with me, either,
and it's not a satisfactory answer....
That would be akin to saying that a paper and ink factory exploded and then
we just so happened to get the thousands of voulumes of the Encyclopedia Britannica
to come together simply by accident or by chance.

[Emily]

What proof do YOU have that we cease to exist??  

Since there is no proof in the afterlife, there you go... Can you prove the afterlife? As you said, no you can't. I am not going to believe in something for which there is no proof.

As far as I'm concerned...there is just far much organization to this natual world and to the universe and how it's keeping it's self together for me to think that it "just happened by accident" or "by random chance".

I hate seeing people attribute this beautiful universe that we have to god, instead of actually studying it. ARG it makes me sick.

To quote thunerf00t;
"The true beauty of a self-inquiring sentient universe is lost on those who elect to walk the intellectually vacuous path of comfortable paranoid fantasies."

As far as organization is concerned. Have you ever heard of the Andromeda galaxy.  Also, have you ever heard of galactic collision[1] Sure the universe has organization, but it's a very violent place out there. There is a proposed time when Andromeda collides with the Milky Way and completely destroying our precious galaxy.[2]

Also, take for example the finding of the WMAP[3]. While they obviously don't disprove god, they do give answers to how the universe came to be. And it goes against the whole YEC thought.

And no, the big-bang theory doesnt quite wash with me, either,
and it's not a satisfactory answer....
That would be akin to saying that a paper and ink factory exploded and then
we just so happened to get the thousands of voulumes of the Encyclopedia Britannica
to come together simply by accident or by chance.

Ahh, not really. The big bang THEORY has been accepted by the scientific community, and has been published in scientific journals. There have been tests done on how old the universe is, and how it got this way[4]As far as I know, there has not been ONE TRUSTWORTHY SCIENTIFIC journal to publish anything on Young Earth Creationism.

1.	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interacting_galaxy
2.	http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2009/jan/06/milky-way-andromeda
3.	http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/
4.	http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/

[Dkit]

You missed the point.  It sounds just like other religious cultures which claimed their god needed a blood sacrifice to appease it/them.  The bible was not written in a vaccum, nor were many of the writers' ideas/stories/laws original to them.  They can be seen in other surrounding cultures centuries before the bible was written.

Your right.  These people were NOT living in a vacuum and were indeed within the relm and influence of other cultures and their pratices....and no...they were not the oldest culture nor were they the largest with the biggest influence.

This is acknowledged many times throughout the Old Testament....and The God of Israel warned them many times not to get involved with these peoples practices. Now, since you claim that these writer's ideas and LAWS were not original to them....can you please provide me with at least a weblink or something that would demonstrate a group of people that were living under the exact same laws as those of the Israelites. Or if these laws and ideas were not original to these people and came from some other group of people.....can you tell me were they got them....
because that would interest me know where they got them from....if not from God.

Never made a claim about "the exact same laws".  I only claimed an outside influence.

The Code of Hammurabi
42 Negative Confessions

If I recall, there is also a third influence that has been mentioned, but I cannot remember what it was.

What proof do YOU have that we cease to exist??  How do you know that to be true??  Yes, I'll be the first to admit that I myself do not know what will happen once I die.  I've never been there....so I dont know and I certainly cant say for certain.  But then again...neither have you.  So how can you say with such certainty you will cease to exist??  What "proof" do you have of that??

I have no reason to believe that my death will be any different from anything else on the planet that dies.  There is no evidence to support a heaven/hell scenario, therefore I don't believe in such things.  There could be alternatives, such as reincarnation, but as stated, I have no reason to believe them.   There are a number of alternatives that have been claimed by religions, but I'm not going to adjust my life to incorporate each and every one of them. 

As far as God being undetectable...look at the universe around you.  I'm assuming you think the sun, moon, stars, and planets got here one way or another.....As far as you saying "People make things happen"....there's not a single person living or dead that can claim to have created or have had a hand in any of that.
If you think you can do it....try it and see what happens.

I wasn't referring to the universe and it contents.  This was your statement to which I was replying:  Has God himself ever pounded on your door and DEMANDED that you believe in him??
No, of course he hasnt.  Only other people. . .

My point was that God never comes down from his throne to tell us anything.  We can only rely on a contradictory and confusing book claiming to be inspired, yet no one can agree on what the inspired interpretation is.  If God cared so much about our eternal soul(if there is such a thing), then he should come down to straighten everyone out instead of us needing to rely on pastors, priests, lunatics, imams, rabbis, faith healers, psychics, etc. 

As far as I'm concerned...there is just far much organization to this natual world and to the universe and how it's keeping it's self together for me to think that it "just happened by accident" or "by random chance".  It's far to organized and complicated to be explained away like that.

And no, the big-bang theory doesnt quite wash with me, either, and it's not a satisfactory answer....That would be akin to saying that a paper and ink factory exploded and then we just so happened to get the thousands of voulumes of the Encyclopedia Britannica to come together simply by accident or by chance.

I never made any comments regarding the universe and its origins. 

[Nam]

There were indeed very severe penalties for the people of Israel (to whom this law applied)

If the laws of the OT do not apply to anyone but those people back then, then why do so many Christians obey certain laws of the OT today? Are they in the wrong? Also, in the NT, Matthew states that Jesus says that he didn't come to abolish the old law but to fulfill it. So, how doesn't the "Old law" apply to Christians, in such regard?

if they were found breaking these laws. But what I would suggest is that you need to read ALL OF THE BOOKS OF THE OLD TESTAMENT to truly understand were the laws were coming from (that is, if you havent read them already).

Perhaps you should, or at least read the parts of Matthew where Jesus states he didn't come to abolish, as I previously stated.

Many of the things that God strictly forbid the people of Israel from doing (such as theft, adultery,sodomy, inscest, murder, witchcraft, swindeling, usery, human sacrifice, the practice of pagan religions/ worship of pagan gods) were what the other people of the then-known world were doing and practicing during the time of Moses and the Exodus.

So, you actually aren't one of those who've read the OT, huh? You're getting your information from your church, or an online website, or what?

God Himself demanded and ordered to have HIS own Son MURDERED AND KILLED because Jesus took full responsibility for all the sin,

That's not taking responsibility, especially if "Daddy" is giving the order, and especially if one believes that "Daddy" and "Son" are the same entity.

God demanded and ordered His Son's death on the cross because God has ABSOLUTELY ZERO TOLERANCE FOR SIN AND DISOBEDIANCE TO HIS LAWS!! Yes...it's that simple. You break only ONE of God's laws (should you live under the Laws of Moses) and chances are very good you will pay for it with your life.

So, Jesus was not only sinful but disobedient? That's what you're saying, right? I think many Christians would disagree with you on that one.

Now, either you can pay for it....or you can accept the fact the Christ died and paid the cost of those sins for you....or you can chose not to believe in Christ. It's really up to you.

It's not a matter of believing if this Jesus person existed, or that he actually did this for everyone else out of his love for man kind. It's not about that. You should get that through your head.

I'm not going to try to change your mind and/or make your mind for you

That's exactly what you're here to do or you wouldn't have ranted on and on as you have and are still going to do after this.

-Nam

[hickdive]

Why are you contradicting yourself??  If these people wrote the bible for their own benefit...
Dont you think that they could've done or acted better than what we see in the bible??
There are examples over and over againg were these people did what they wanted to on their terms
and the consequences they paid for doing that.  There are also many passages in the bible that arent
quite pleasant or nice to read. It is a brutally honest book and does record many actions that these
people did that they probably wouldnt want us to know about.


Also...
When God's Son came down from Heaven to live and die as a man...that's exactly what he was doing.
He didnt come down here to live as a God...but to live as a natural, human-being.  He could've sent Christ down here instantly as a 30 year old man with a beard...but he didnt do that.

God created natural laws and he does not break them.  
He may at times accelerate them....but he does not break them or leap over them.  

That means Christ was carried by Mary for 9 months, he was born, grew up, matured,
and expericanced the life that we as humans experiance as "normal".

And if you think dying isnt such a big deal...maybe you should do yourself in a be done with it...
oh yeah...be sure to let us know what it's like on the other side once you get there.

Nope, no contradictions in my post, try again without the mental gymnastics and do try to think about who wrote the bible and to what purpose (think cost/benefit, this is really simple stuff). Oh and your last little comment, very nice, you kiss your mother with that mouth? I don't kill myself inter alia because this life is what I've got and, TBH, it's pretty good. You, OTH, are the good little god-botherer with the afterlife to look forward to, so what's stopping you? According to your religion no matter how good/bad/indifferent your life is, that's just nothing to your reward in heaven, if you're a true believer, for all eternity. Meantime; Hitler and the wankers are in hell. Personally, I prefer to make a difference for the here and now, not the hereafter.

Sheesh! What is it with these people and their lame 'I didn't think that through' comments and poor reading comprehension skills? I do better when pissed.

[William]

To answer your question...Although Christ was/is a part of the Holy Trinity...God did not literally kill HIMSELF...obvioulsly he was still on the throne when His Son died on the cross, so you do have two
different individuals:  God The Father on the Throne...and His Son that descended from Heaven and
became a flesh and blood man.  

The reason God required the killing of his Son is that, again, you have to
go back to the laws of Moses to know why this was required.  In the days of the Laws of Moses, there would be no forgiveness of sins and disobedience without the shedding of blood.  In the case of the Israelites (once they has a nation had their covenent with God) this "blood-payment sacrifice" took the form of the killing and of male sheep or lambs.  Instead of the sinner being killed for his sins (which is what should have happened) God only required that a male lamb be sacrificed instead. Overtime, the people of Israel began taking much of what God for them for granted and began rejecting God and the requirements he demanded of them....and the quality of the sacrifices they offered to them became more and more substandered.  This is what led God to having his people (the Israelites) being forced off the land of Canaan.  Since his people would not obey him....He saw to it that they would no longer live there and they went from being God's people to becoming slaves of the Babylonians, Persians, and later were exiled by the Romans for their constant disobediance.

Because the substitute lamb sacrifices were no longer effective...God required a better sacrifice.
Why?? because according to God's laws that were given by Moses...there had to be shedding of blood to remove sin.  In other words...someone had to die....either the sheep...or the sinner.  Since God apparenetley valued the life of the sinner....he found it acceptable to have the innocent sheep killed instead of the man who committed the sin.


You also said, "If God wanted me to understand, He do something I could relate to"...


I agree with you.  God did do something that you could "relate to" when his Son came down to Earth and became a Man just like the rest of us. This was a way of God "putting his money were his mouth is".
And because Jesus became a Man (instead of, let's say, a sheep)...this was why his death became
the satisfactory sacrifice that God was demanding.  Instead of becomming just another sacrifical sheep...Christ became a Man and died as a man in our place.

Thanks for your answer VredesStal.  I appreciate your effort but I'm getting even more confused now.

You say "God did not literally kill HIMSELF", but then you go on to explain that he himself required the blood sacrifices, but the substandard offerings were not doing the job to satisfy god, so he sent his only son to fulfill that purpose.  How is sending your son to a sacrificial death that you yourself require not the same as killing your son ... er a piece of yourself split off and existing independently - but still one God.
It's bizarre - I cannot relate to it!

On the "laws of Moses", who was calling the shots, Moses or god?  Why did god have to comply with Moses laws to have a "shedding of blood" for there to be "forgiveness of sins and disobedience"?  Why not just give some new prophet/leader a revised set of laws together with some special effects (like thunder and lightning or whatever) to get everybody's attention?  That special effects tactic worked elsewhere in the bible so why not for the quality of sacrifice?  But no! God shows people what he really likes, a human sacrifice, and then having shown the people what he wanted all along, he says they don't need to do it anymore!  Go figure?

[Odin]

To answer your question...Although Christ was/is a part of the Holy Trinity...God did not literally kill HIMSELF...obvioulsly he was still on the throne when His Son died on the cross, so you do have two
different individuals:  God The Father on the Throne...and His Son that descended from Heaven and
became a flesh and blood man.

Wait.  Are you saying god was constipated when Jesus was crucified?  He was STILL on the throne?  How long did he stay there?  Is he still on there?

On a more serious note:  The whole discussion about slavery and wandering in the desert is moot, because there is zero archaeological evidence that it happened.  It's all Jewish mythology.

Odin, King of the Gods

[Hermes]

FWIW, a thread on the afterlife with details;

No souls, no way to get to an afterlife
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=6546

[Tails_155]

The opportunity is just too good: murdered AND killed you say?

[Irish]

Wall o' text = I don't read

[deconvertedone]

 
Because the substitute lamb sacrifices were no longer effective...God required a better sacrifice.
Why?? because according to God's laws that were given by Moses...there had to be shedding of blood to remove sin.  In other words...someone had to die....either the sheep...or the sinner.  Since God apparenetley valued the life of the sinner....he found it acceptable to have the innocent sheep killed instead of the man who committed the sin.

Why is it considered a sacrifice if God already knew what was going to happen to Jesus - he knew he would be resurrected and ascend to heaven before he died on that cross, where is the big sacrifice in that?