Author Topic: Thanks [#1239]  (Read 995 times)

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Offline DL

Thanks [#1239]
« on: April 05, 2009, 07:55:21 PM »
Dear Sir/Madam
 
I admire the tenacity with which you defend your faith.  You believe without
undisputable proof that God does not exists.  This fits the definition of faith.  I
have been in many arguments in my lifetime and know that an obdurate adversary will
never concede.  He will however condemn the logic of an argument by using that same
logic or some other pseudo logic.  If that fails he will then attempt to hurt the
adversary feelings by calling them or their arguments names like idiot or stupid
there by attempting to belittle them.  This hurting of other people is a sign that
our hearts are evil and wicked especially if one derives a feeling of pleasure or
satisfaction from this act.  I for one despise my own heart and know it is evil and
pray every day for God to give me a good one.  Most of your arguments are
intelligently constructed and even I admit that I have philosophical and religious
questions that man or Bible cannot answer.  Still, like you, I believe by faith.
 
I also call all religions and gods fake except the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob
in the Holy Bible.  There are over 300 different registered Christian denominations
in the world today and I have found fault with every denomination I have studied.
Most misquote, misinterpret or rewrite the Holy Scriptures.  They purposely or
unintentionally use religion to further their own gains.  They make up things that
are not in the Scriptures and tell lies that mislead the simpleminded.  This also
supports the claim that man’s heart is evil and wicked and fits the definition of
many ravenous wolves amongst the sheep predicted by the Bible for the end times.
 
Admittedly I can give no undisputable reason for you to abandon your faith.  I can
however give witness to the reasons for my own faith.
 
Archeology has proven the Bible to be the most accurate record of ancient history
that we have today.  Babylon, Jericho, and the Erastus stone are but a few of the
most recent discoveries.  These are facts not fairytales.  The most compelling
evidence comes from the Dead Sea scrolls.  Particularly the Book of Daniel and this
is why.  The Dead Sea scrolls produced a nearly one hundred percent complete Book of
Daniel which carbon dated to 125 BCE worst case view.
(http://www.harvardhouse.com/Gabriel-to-Daniel_Einstein_Method.htm).  This copy is
identical to the modern copies we have today except for some minor spelling errors.
The Book of Daniel predicts the fall of the Babylonian empire by the Medes and
Persians.  It even names the King, Cyrus which is proven by archeological evidence.
Daniel then further predicts that the Medes and Persians will be conquered by Greece
and the Greek empire conquered by another unnamed empire which history says is Rome.
 This last empire was predicted to be divided from within not conquered by another
empire and again history bears this out.  Daniel also predicted the 1260 year rule
of the Anti-Christ to arise from the divided kingdoms of “Rome”.  That is someone
who takes the place of Christ not someone who is openly against Christ.  History
calls this the dark or middle ages when a corrupt church ruled over the Kings of
Europe.  The rule of this Beast or Anti-Christ ended in 1798 when Napoleon used
military force to take the Pope captive. This is all history.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_States)  The Bible predicted how and when this
first Beast would fall but not who would do it.  The next prediction of this Book is
that shortly after the fall of the first Beast or Anti-Christ a new nation arising
from a relatively sparsely populated part of the earth, Christian in its appearance
would eventually become a second Beast power. The US is the only Christian nation to
appear around this time eventually becoming a world super power.  In fulfillment of
prophecy the US is using its military for political and economic gain under the
guise of “keeping the peace” around the world.  The Romans after all conquered the
world under the claim of “Pax Romana” or Roman Peace.  This is no coincidence.  This
second Beast will mimic the first Beast and impose its power over the rulers of the
whole earth and the first Beast would eventually recover and regain its power and
prestige being helped by the second Beast. 
 
If this last prediction is true then we should see Christian churches around the US
trying to gain control over the government and the government using these churches
to subjugate the people.  Our government should be in league with the Vatican and
start to make laws governing the spiritual morality of the people.  Laws like whom
and when we worship and whom we marry; laws outlawing all other forms of religion,
creating a world wide super church.  The only religion in the world to have its own
US ambassador is the Vatican in Rome. Remember it was Mussolini the ally of Hitler
that gave the Pope of Rome back his power, seat and authority thereby healing the
proverbial wound to the head given by Napoleon.
 
Before you scoff I suggest you watch the videos on YouTube under the titles of FEMA
camps, FEMA coffins, and FEMA pastors. 
 
Our government is planning something and I don’t believe it’s going to be good.  My
greatest fear in the world today does not come from Muslims, Jews, Buddhists,
Atheists, Hindu’s, Wicca’s, Spiritualists or any other religious or political
organization.  I fear apostate Christians those who want to force their beliefs onto
others and the governments that support and use these people for  purposes.
Atheists are my greatest allies out side of my own faith.  Their fight to keep
religion and Christianity out of the government is to every ones advantage even if I
don’t agree with their reasons.  I want to thank you all.  Liberty of conscience is
what this country was built on not Christianity.
 
If you don’t like or believe history and archeology then I offer some scientific,
mathematical and observational evidence that supports the existence of God and the
veracity of the Bible.
 
The chance of a single protein combining by random chance I am told is 1 in 1x10 to
the sixtieth power.  The chance of snatching a single atom from all the matter in
the universe is 1 in 1x10 to the thirtieth power and 1 in 1x10 to the fiftieth power
is scientifically considered to be zero or no chance.
 
Quantum theory has now proven that photons and some sub-atomic particles can be
changed and manipulated simply by observing them.  This same theory predicts that
the most basic “building blocks” of matter and energy exist only when or because
they are being observed.  Scientists around the world are now struggling to
understand this prediction.  The implications are that our universe exists only
because someone or something outside our universe is observing it.  The Bible
proclaims this very thing to be God.
 
I have heard it said that, “seeing is believing”.  The big bang theory, cosmic
background radiation and the observable astronomical evidence all point to the
universe spreading out in all directions from a fix point in space that is at or
very near the earth.  Hubble concocted his theory in his own words, “To escape the
horror of a unique place in the universe”.   I have heard that the amount energy
lost in red shift due to Hubble’s explanation exceeds the mass of the universe by
some 30 million times.  For me it takes more faith to believe in Hubble than my own
eyes.
 
The age of computers has proven that chaos and random chance do not produce
information rich environments.  Intelligence is the only known mechanism to produce
such environments.  DNA is the most information rich environment known in the world
today.  I am a computer engineer and know that intelligent computer code does not
come from random chance or chaos but by intelligent design.
 
I realize that each and every argument I presented here can be effectively and
intelligently countered if one is determined to believe otherwise.  I am not a
historian, archeologist, mathematician, quantum theorist, astronomer nor geneticist.
 I just believe that the simplest explanation is most likely the correct one.  I
believe what I can see over some scientific double talk that no one can really
understand or explain.
 
Faith can not be stupid or smart only misplaced or misguided.  To call someone
stupid for believing in God is to call many great men of history stupid, Sir Isaac
Newton, Galileo, Albert Einstein, George Washington, Tomas Jefferson, Abraham
Lincoln and many more.  While history bears out many great men who did not claim to
believe in God that is really not the point here now.  Is it?
 
Here are some of the scientific facts in the Bible that ancient man could have not
known many of which have only been discovered in the past century.
 
Only in recent years has science discovered that everything we see is composed of
invisible atoms.  Here, Scripture tells us that the “things which are seen were not
made of things which do appear.” Heb 11:3
 
At a time when it was believed that the earth sat on a large animal or a giant (1500
B.C.), the Bible spoke of the earth’s free float in space:  “He...hangs the earth
upon nothing” (Job 26:7).
 
Isa  40:22 The prophet Isaiah also tells us that the earth is round: “It is he that
sits upon the circle of the earth”.  This is not a reference to a flat disk, as some
skeptics maintain, but to a sphere.  I looked this up myself and found that the
Hebrew word translated here as circle has the meaning of circuit and compassive that
is defined by Strong’s dictionary as encompassing, going around continually.
 
God told Job in 1500 B.C.: “Can you send lightnings, that they may go, and say to
you, Here we are?” (Job 38:35).  The Bible here is making what appears to be a
scientifically ludicrous statement—that light can be sent, and then manifest itself
in speech.  But did you know that radio waves travel at the speed of light?  This is
why you can have instantaneous wireless communication with someone on the other side
of the earth.  Science didn’t discover this until 1864 when “British scientist James
Clerk Maxwell suggested that electricity and light waves were two forms of the same
thing” (Modern Century Illustrated Encyclopedia).  I guess this was written before
the invention of fiber optics.
 
Job 38:19 asks, “Where is the way where light dwells?” Modern man has only recently
discovered that light (electromagnetic radiation) has a “way,” traveling at 186,000
miles per second.
 
Science has discovered that stars emit radio waves, which are received on earth as a
high pitch.  God mentioned this in Job 38:7:  “When the morning stars sang
together...”
 
 “Most cosmologists (scientists who study the structures and evolution of the
universe) agree that the Genesis account of creation, in imagining an initial void,
may be uncannily close to the truth” (Time, Dec. 1976).
 
Solomon described a “cycle” of air currents two thousand years before scientists
“discovered” them.  “The wind goes toward the south, and turns about unto the north;
it whirls about continually, and the wind returns again according to his circuits”
(Ecclesiastes 1:6).
 
Science expresses the universe in five terms: time, space, matter, power, and
motion. Genesis 1:1, 2 revealed such truths to the Hebrews in 1450 B.C.:  “In the
beginning [time] God created [power] the heaven [space] and the earth [matter] . . .
And the Spirit of God moved [motion] upon the face of the waters.”  The first thing
God tells man is that He controls all aspects of the universe.
 
The great biological truth concerning the importance of blood in our body’s
mechanism has been fully comprehended only in recent years.  Up until 120 years ago,
sick people were “bled,” and many died because of the practice.  If you lose your
blood, you lose your life.  Yet Leviticus 17:11, written 3,000 years ago, declared
that blood is the source of life:  “For the life of the flesh is in the blood.”
 
All things were made by Him (see John 1:3), including dinosaurs.  Why then did the
dinosaur disappear?  The answer may be in Job 40:15–24.  In this passage, God speaks
about a great creature called “behemoth.” Some commentators think this was a
hippopotamus.  However, the hippo’s tail isn’t like a large tree, but a small twig.
Following are the characteristics of this huge animal:  It was the largest of all
the creatures God made; was plant-eating (herbivorous); had its strength in its hips
and a tail like a large tree.  It had very strong bones, lived among the trees,
drank massive amounts of water, and was not disturbed by a raging river.   He
appears impervious to attack because his nose could pierce through snares, but
Scripture says, “He that made him can make his sword to approach unto him.”  In
other words, God caused this, the largest of all the creatures He had made, to
become extinct.  YouTube has video of dinosaur and human fossil foot prints found
together in cretaceous rock while they were being uncovered with a bulldozer in
Texas.
 
Encyclopedia Britannica documents that in 1845, a young doctor in Vienna named Dr.
Ignaz Semmelweis was horrified at the terrible death rate of women who gave birth in
hospitals.  As many as 30 percent died after giving birth.  Semmelweis noted that
doctors would examine the bodies of patients who died, then, without washing their
hands, go straight to the next ward and examine expectant mothers.  This was their
normal practice, because the presence of microscopic diseases was unknown.
Semmelweis insisted that doctors wash their hands before examinations, and the death
rate immediately dropped to 2 percent.  Look at the specific instructions God gave
His people for when they encounter disease:  “And when he that has an issue is
cleansed of his issue; then he shall number to himself seven days for his cleansing,
and wash his clothes, and bathe his flesh in running water, and shall be clean”
(Leviticus 15:13).  Until recent years, doctors washed their hands in a bowl of
water, leaving invisible germs on their hands.  However, the Bible says specifically
to wash hands under “running water.”
 
Luke 17:34–36 says the Second Coming of Jesus Christ will occur while some are
asleep at night and others are working at daytime activities in the field. This is a
clear indication of a revolving earth, with day and night at the same time.
 
 “During the devastating Black Death of the fourteenth century, patients who were
sick or dead were kept in the same rooms as the rest of the family.  People often
wondered why the disease was affecting so many people at one time.  They attributed
these epidemics to ‘bad air’ or ‘evil spirits.’  However, careful attention to the
medical commands of God as revealed in Leviticus would have saved untold millions
of lives.  Arturo Castiglione wrote about the overwhelming importance of this
biblical medical law:  ‘The laws against leprosy in Leviticus 13 may be regarded as
the first model of sanitary legislation’ (A History of Medicine).”  Grant R.
Jeffery, The Signature of God.
 
With all these truths revealed in Scripture, how could a thinking person deny that
the Bible is supernatural in origin?  There is no other book in any of the world’s
religions
(Vedas, Bhagavad-Gita, Koran, Book of Mormon, etc.) that contains scientific truth.
In fact, they contain statements that are clearly unscientific.  Hank Hanegraaff
said, “Faith in Christ is not some blind leap into a dark chasm, but a faith based
on established evidence.”

Offline none

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Re: Thanks [#1239]
« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2009, 08:16:57 PM »

I admire the tenacity with which you defend your faith.  You believe without
undisputable proof that God does not exists.  This fits the definition of faith.
so, basically since the evidence i use to support my claim that god is imaginary is the lack of evidence, which is evident, I am imagining that god is a figment of the imagination becuase my evidence is evident.
imagine if god were real and there was evidence to support the imagined claim of a factual reality for a god.

Offline Nick

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Re: Thanks [#1239]
« Reply #2 on: April 05, 2009, 08:35:48 PM »
Man, to say this guy has some issues is an understatement.  The bible is full of error and the Koran also says it has scientific truths.  Talk to one of several of our Muslim posters.  You say the simple path is usually the truth.  How about this path...God is imaginary.  There...a much more simple and direct path to truth.
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

Tide goes in, tide goes out !!!

Offline AndroidAR

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Re: Thanks [#1239]
« Reply #3 on: April 05, 2009, 08:50:06 PM »
Quote
Archeology has proven the Bible to be the most accurate record of ancient history
that we have today.  Babylon, Jericho, and the Erastus stone are but a few of the
most recent discoveries.  These are facts not fairytales.

Just because a text has something in it that is later rediscovered does not mean the whole thing, or even the story it is mentioned in, is true. It just means that place was there.

The Youtube user sharbtur gave a good rebuttal to this:
"Say, one day, Manhattan gets destroyed. And over time the ruins are buried, and everyone forgets about it. Many years later, someone finds a comic book, say a Spider-man comic book, that talks about a city named Manhattan. More years pass, and one day, an archeologist finds the ruins of Manhattan. Does this mean Spider-man is true?"

Quote
I fear apostate Christians those who want to force their beliefs onto
others and the governments that support and use these people for  purposes.
Atheists are my greatest allies out side of my own faith.  Their fight to keep
religion and Christianity out of the government is to every ones advantage even if I
don’t agree with their reasons.  I want to thank you all.  Liberty of conscience is
what this country was built on not Christianity.

Hmm... Interesting. I'm glad you see things that way.

Quote
The age of computers has proven that chaos and random chance do not produce
information rich environments.

The *chan culture (i.e, Anonymous) has shown otherwise.

Quote
At a time when it was believed that the earth sat on a large animal or a giant (1500
B.C.), the Bible spoke of the earth’s free float in space:  “He...hangs the earth
upon nothing” (Job 26:7).

Terra does NOT hang on nothing. It is held 'up' by gravity.

Quote
Faith can not be stupid or smart only misplaced or misguided.  To call someone
stupid for believing in God is to call many great men of history stupid, Sir Isaac
Newton, Galileo, Albert Einstein, George Washington, Tomas Jefferson, Abraham
Lincoln and many more.  While history bears out many great men who did not claim to
believe in God that is really not the point here now.  Is it?

Albert Einstein was a pantheist; his 'god' is just a poetic synonym for the laws of nature.
Thomas Jefferson was a Deist. He did not believe in an active god.

Plenty of other great men have been non-believers. This is an argument from authority.

Quote
Job 38:19 asks, “Where is the way where light dwells?” Modern man has only recently
discovered that light (electromagnetic radiation) has a “way,” traveling at 186,000
miles per second.

I hope you now the quote says, "WHERE the light dwells," not "What" or "How fast is light?"

Quote
Science expresses the universe in five terms: time, space, matter, power, and
motion. Genesis 1:1, 2 revealed such truths to the Hebrews in 1450 B.C.:  “In the
beginning [time] God created [power] the heaven [space] and the earth [matter] . . .
And the Spirit of God moved [motion] upon the face of the waters.”  The first thing
God tells man is that He controls all aspects of the universe.

Ok, you got time and space, where are the other 7 postulated dimensions? Also, space contains matter, and I wouldn't use "created" as a synonym for power.

I'm not going to touch the rest, because, for instance, you think that it took mankind 3000 years to figure out that losing too much blood will kill you. Also, bloodletting was meant to be done in small amounts.

Quote
“Faith in Christ is not some blind leap into a dark chasm, but a faith based
on established evidence.”

Lemme use THE BIBLE for this one: John 20:24-29 (KJV):

Quote
29: Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Obviously it says those who have blind faith are the ones who are blessed. Looks like Jesus screwed over Thomas (my favorite apostle) for asking for proof that Jesus rose from the dead.


Offline Tails_155

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Re: Thanks [#1239]
« Reply #4 on: April 05, 2009, 09:52:58 PM »
Albert Einstein was a pantheist; his 'god' is just a poetic synonym for the laws of nature.
Thomas Jefferson was a Deist. He did not believe in an active god.

Plenty of other great men have been non-believers. This is an argument from unqualified authority.

Corrected, and question to mind: what is qualified religious authority? Since the clergy is full of crap?
« Last Edit: April 20, 2009, 12:03:20 AM by Tails_155 »
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Offline xTigerx

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Re: Thanks [#1239]
« Reply #5 on: April 05, 2009, 09:56:17 PM »
Faith?  What faith?
God, if you're real, show yourself.  ...still waiting...
...

...




...

Offline Whitney

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Re: Thanks [#1239]
« Reply #6 on: April 05, 2009, 10:12:26 PM »
Faith?  What faith?

The person who sent the mail is assuming the author of wwgha is a strong atheist.  It is common to argue that strong atheists have faith since they claim to know that a god doesn't exist.

Offline Irish

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Re: Thanks [#1239]
« Reply #7 on: April 06, 2009, 12:18:17 AM »
Quote
I admire the tenacity with which you defend your faith

And right there, with the very first sentence, my enthusiasm to read this post died.

I then scrolled down and saw that the OP did nothing but quote me Bible verses, probabilities of proteins forming, quantum mechanics, archaeology showing the Bible is accurate yadda, yadda, yadda.

The first sentence was a FAIL... I didn't read any farther than that.
La scienze non ha nemici ma gli ignoranti.

Offline Emily

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Re: Thanks [#1239]
« Reply #8 on: April 06, 2009, 05:50:40 AM »
Quote
Quantum theory has now proven that photons and some sub-atomic particles can be
changed and manipulated simply by observing them.  This same theory predicts that
the most basic “building blocks” of matter and energy exist only when or because
they are being observed.  Scientists around the world are now struggling to
understand this prediction.  The implications are that our universe exists only
because someone or something outside our universe is observing it.  The Bible
proclaims this very thing to be God.

Well, this beats most creationists arguments that misquote the conservation of matter. You guys are getting close to making sense, but still far off. It's funny though, because VERY few scientists are ever going to proclaim it to be god (unless you count those fools are the ICR. BTW: Don't count those fools at the ICR)
« Last Edit: April 06, 2009, 05:56:24 AM by Emily »
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I edit a lot of my posts. The reason being it to add content or to correct grammar/wording. All edits to remove wording get a strike through through the wording.

Offline Dkit

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Re: Thanks [#1239]
« Reply #9 on: April 06, 2009, 08:18:21 AM »

I for one despise my own heart and know it is evil and pray every day for God to give me a good one. 
How's that working out for you?

Archeology has proven the Bible to be the most accurate record of ancient history
that we have today. 
That's hilarious.   
 

 
 

"The Bible is a Banquet table not a snack tray!" - Anonymous Facebook User

Offline Dkit

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Re: Thanks [#1239]
« Reply #10 on: April 06, 2009, 08:35:30 AM »
I would like to recommend a book:

The Bible Unearthed


Quote
You believe without undisputable proof that God does not exists.  This fits the definition of faith.
Did you look up the definition of faith?  How exactly do you find "undisputable proof" that something DOESN'T exist?  If something doesn't exist, we would expect to NOT find evidence of it's existence, which is what we find with God.  Funny that.

Faith - 1): firm belief in something for which there is no proof  < -----like God
"The Bible is a Banquet table not a snack tray!" - Anonymous Facebook User

Offline deconvertedone

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Re: Thanks [#1239]
« Reply #11 on: April 06, 2009, 09:28:42 AM »

I for one despise my own heart and know it is evil and pray every day for God to give me a good one. 
How's that working out for you?

Archeology has proven the Bible to be the most accurate record of ancient history
that we have today. 
That's hilarious. 

I find the first quote very disturbing, I understand what the OP means from a religious POV, but it still seems unhealthy to me.

I thought by the title of this post he would be telling us how he was de-converted, boy was I wrong. 
 

 
 


The memory of my own suffering has prevented me from ever shadowing one young soul with the superstition of the Christian religion.
Elizabeth Cady Stanton

Offline Dkit

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Re: Thanks [#1239]
« Reply #12 on: April 06, 2009, 09:37:30 AM »
Quote from: deconvertedone
I find the first quote very disturbing, I understand what the OP means from a religious POV, but it still seems unhealthy to me.
I agree.  Sadly, it is a common theme in the mailbag.  Isn't it all a part of the brainwashing technique?  Beat them down then tell them there is only one way to lift themselves out of the hole religion has dug for them? 

"The Bible is a Banquet table not a snack tray!" - Anonymous Facebook User

Offline deconvertedone

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Re: Thanks [#1239]
« Reply #13 on: April 06, 2009, 09:51:01 AM »
Quote from: deconvertedone
I find the first quote very disturbing, I understand what the OP means from a religious POV, but it still seems unhealthy to me.
I agree.  Sadly, it is a common theme in the mailbag.  Isn't it all a part of the brainwashing technique?  Beat them down then tell them there is only one way to lift themselves out of the hole religion has dug for them? 



Yes, it is part of the brainwashing.  You can also get out of the "hole" by sending money.
The memory of my own suffering has prevented me from ever shadowing one young soul with the superstition of the Christian religion.
Elizabeth Cady Stanton

Offline Dkit

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Re: Thanks [#1239]
« Reply #14 on: April 06, 2009, 09:54:24 AM »
Of course, because there are never too many statues of Jesus.



Money well spent.   :(
"The Bible is a Banquet table not a snack tray!" - Anonymous Facebook User

Offline deconvertedone

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Re: Thanks [#1239]
« Reply #15 on: April 06, 2009, 10:00:01 AM »
No wonder god is always broke, he spends his money on stuff like that.  How many people would the money spent on this idol feed?  How many condoms could he buy?
The memory of my own suffering has prevented me from ever shadowing one young soul with the superstition of the Christian religion.
Elizabeth Cady Stanton

Offline DL

Re: Thanks [#1239]
« Reply #16 on: April 19, 2009, 03:55:39 PM »
OP responds via email:

---

None
Using pseudo logic and verbal double talk is not really a better or different
definition it’s just confusing and evasive.  This practice is usually enacted by
people who are afraid that others will see them as simpleminded and attempt to cover
this up by ridiculing any intelligent argument that they can’t win.  I assume you
have faith in some form of science to explain the existence of our universe, life on
this planet… and I would be glad to argue any intelligent or intellectual point you
can make.
 
Nick
You are quite right the quote is not entirely true.  I’m no expert but I’ve heard
the Koran has much of the same knowledge as the Torah or the first four books of the
Old Testament all of which contain many of the same scientific truths.  In fact they
all claim to be worshiping in essence the same God.  The major difference being only
Christianity believes the concept of the Trinity or God head.  “There is no other
book in any of the world’s religions (Vedas, Bhagavad-Gita, Koran, Book of Mormon,
etc.) that contains scientific truth.  In fact, they contain statements that are
clearly unscientific.”  I added this text because it was part of the original
document given to me and I wanted to see if anyone was awake out there.  Bravo you
caught me.  Score one for Nick
 
You misquote. What I said was the simplest explanation not path.  Taking quotes out
of context is a transparent ploy enacted usually because the argument presented
can’t effectively be countered.  Offer an intellectually factual, simpler
explanation for the universe, life on this planet, etcetera.  You seem smart should
be no problem for you.
 
AndroidAR
Sharbtur’s Spiderman makes no prediction about future events or people. Your
effective counter is also missing the proof of events by some occupants of said city
that are recorded by governmental officials.  Like the trials of Shadrach, Meshach,
and Abed-nego recorded in ancient cuneiform tablets by the Babylonian King who just
happened to stamp his name on every single brick of said city.  Your Spiderman
theories fail to address these important details and many more.  I am ever so
thankful that Sharbtur is not doing the archaeology of this world.  Sharbtur’s story
bears no resemblance to the facts.  It is at best a witty subterfuge seeming to
dispute while cleverly omitting anything that doesn’t achieve his objective. 
 
If what you mean by “that way” is truth, then, yes I see thing that way.
 
Searching for the *Chan culture produced nothing more than a web page.  Please
provide a URL if you really have proof I wish to examine it.  Otherwise provide the
mathematical proof that disputes the possibility of chaos and random chance
producing information rich environments and let skip the unmitigated subterfuge it
is a poor reflection of intellect and character.
 
The earth is hanging on gravity.  Well I have to admit that you almost had half of a
complete thought here.  I could hear the gears turning and could smell the wood
burning.  Please allow me to complete what you almost said. Gravity pulls the earth
towards the sun and centrifugal force pulls the earth away from the sun.  If we
remove these two forces simultaneously the earth would stop moving aside from its
own angular momentum.  Nothing would be keeping the earth in its place.  If you
argue that the sun’s gravity is holding the earth up then the next logical question
to ask is what is holding the sun up.  Please tell us if you have some mathematical
proof that gravity has substance or how exactly it fits into the grand scheme of the
universe.  Quantum theorists have been struggling with this very question for
decades now.  If you know more than they do please enlighten us so they can finish
their Grand Unification Theory.
 
Albert Einstein was a pantheist.  He mistakenly believed that an impersonal God was
everything and everywhere.  This was very common in his day.  I argued only that he
believed in God not that his belief was correct.
 
Thomas Jefferson was a deist.  A deist is someone who believes in God but not blind
obedience to established religion again I never said his belief was correct.
 
This statement is I believe not wholly supported by the text.  He obviously had the
right idea but was working with a handicap.
 
“6. Job 38:19 asks, “Where is the way where light dwells?” Modern man has only
recently discovered that light (electromagnetic radiation) has a “way,” traveling at
186,000 miles per second.”
 
Here is the entire quote in its original translation (KJV) of the Hebrew.  Since the
original translators had no factual information about light they had no idea how to
translate this passage.  All punctuation in the Bible was added by the translators.
I also removed all the words translators added for clarity.
 
Job 38:19-20 - Where the way light dwelleth and darkness where the place thereof
that thou shouldest take it to the bound thereof and that thou shouldest know the
paths the house thereof
 
The New Living Translation is in many ways far worse:
Where does light come from and where does the darkness go?  Can you take it to its
home?  Do you know how to get there?
 
You’ll excuse me but that translation was nothing but utter nonsense.  I’m no Bible
translator but I have the original Hebrew text including English definitions of the
Hebrew words so I’ll take a stab at it.
 
Job 38:19 – Where is the way of light from its dwelling? And darkness where is the
place of it?  That you should take it to its boundary and that you should know the
path to its home.
 
God is saying that light has some way of traveling from its source to whatever it’s
illuminating and that we can’t see it in between.  Man only recently discovered that
light travels in straight lines and we only see the photons that actually strike our
eyes either directly or reflected off matter.  We live in an age where lasers and
other DEW’s have proven this beyond any doubt.  God then proclaims that light has
limits (186,000 miles a second is one) and that we can use photons to locate any
light source. You do realize that nothing can travel faster than the speed of light.
 It is the ultimate limit or boundary governing the very relativity of our universe
and its discovery has led to what we now know as the science of Quantum mechanics.
 
Please describe our universe with these other postulated dimensions as proof.  While
these theoretical dimensions are mathematically feasible they are by definition not
part of our universe.   If creation takes no power then you obliviously dispute
Albert Einstein’s Theory of Relativity E=MC*2.  I will assume you have the
mathematical evidence that proves you can create matter without energy.  Please
enlighten us.  We are all waiting.  Space has motion, power, and time too not just
matter.  That doesn’t mean that they are all one and the same.  While seemingly
clever on the surface your arguments have no substance only unmitigated misdirection
and subterfuge.  Please try again
 
You misquote.  No one said it took 3000 years to figure out that losing too much
blood will kill you.  The quote is it took 3000 years for man to fully comprehend
the importance of blood in the body’s mechanism i.e.: transporting oxygen, healing
infection, clotting and the many other essential jobs that the blood does for us.
Good use of subterfuge but only a transparent ploy at best.
 
Jesus never says that we are blessed for having blind faith.  He says that we are
blessed because we believe He was raised without seeing Him.  We don’t see other
star’s planets and can’t see black holes by definition but believe they exist none
the less because of the evidence.  What Jesus means by blessed is that we are gifted
that is to say wise for believing because we understand and accept the evidence that
supports his existence.  Not that Thomas was in any way less fortunate because he
needed proof.
 
While your clever use of subterfuge and misdirection is a clear testimony to your
intellect and character you failed to successfully argue a single point.  I believe
that makes the score for scientific claims: God: 21 and you: 0 and as for everything
else, well your score is still zero.  I’ll take those odds any day.
 
Tails_155
Albert Einstein was a pantheist.  He mistakenly believed that an impersonal God was
everything and everywhere.  This was very common in his day.  I argued only that he
believed in God not that his belief was correct.
 
Whitney & xTigerx
I assume you have faith in some form of science to explain the existence of our
universe, life on this planet… and I would be glad to argue any intelligent point
you can make.
 
Irish
I imagine you quite the scholar all those books you must have read.  Your arguments
and unique intellect are clearly present in you rebuttal and an unmistakable
reflection of your character.  Allow me to give you some advice.  If you’re in
school stay there and medical science has proven that alcohol and drugs destroy
brain cell at alarming rates.
 
Emily
You misquote.  I said the Bible not scientist proclaim this very thing to be God.
Since you appear to know more than world renown author and physicist Paul Davies
feel free to cross out those deductions but please offer another one as a point of
contention or could it be that no simpler or sensible deduction exist.  Your
rebuttal lacks any substance and therefore has no intellectual value.  Your tactics
are typically enacted by those who reject any truth that interferes with their
sinful lifestyles or makes them accountable to a Holy God.
 
Dkit
Offering pseudo logic and verbal double talk to support you arguments is counter
productive.  I assume you have faith in some form of science to explain the
existence of our universe, life on this planet… and I would be glad to argue any
intelligent point you can make.
 
Your argument to dispute the history and archaeology of the Bible is amazingly short
and lacks a single fact.  This usually happens when the argument is already lost and
the proponent attempts to belittle what he knows he can’t logically disprove.  I
don’t have “The Bible Unearthed” but from what I’ve been able to gather it argues
the lack of archaeological evidence is proof.  These arguments never stand the test
of time, are unscientific and many archaeologists disagree with his findings.
Israel Finkelstien
http://www.ask.com/bar?q=israel+finkelstein&page=1&qsrc=0&ab=4&u=http%3A%2F%2Fprophetess.lstc.edu%2F%7Erklein%2FDocuments%2Fgrounds.htm
 
As for Finkelstein’s lack of evidence I suggest you watch these videos and use
Google Earth to search for “Pilar of Salomon”.  This was a monument King Salomon
erected to mark the crossing of the Red Sea.
Ron Wyatt Discovering the Exodus Part 1

Proving the Bible through Archaeology Part 1

 
Deconvertedone & Dkit
You say you are disturbed by someone who knows that they are wicked in nature and
prays for God’s help everyday.  I say your concern comes from your own heart that is
to say you know the evil your own heart is capable of and fear this in others
because you have no faith in God to save you from it or them.  You mistakenly
believe that all religious people are demented.  The real danger comes from the man
who thinks God has purified him so that he can do no wrong or that thinks he is good
in nature to begin with.  These are the people who commit terrible atrocities many
times in the very name of God never questioning their own actions.
 
By the way religious statues are an abomination unto God as are all the apostate
religions that make them.  Your intellectual prowess is amazing to be able to debate
the Bible without thoroughly reading it or clearly understanding its foundational
principles.  I am hard pressed to dispute your findings.
 
Everyone
Many of the claims of Darwinism have been effectively disproved mathematically or
otherwise which makes any further claims of other proofs the acts of desperate men.
Here is a link to a list of nearly 700 scientists that no longer believe in Darwin’s
theory of evolution and the list is growing bigger everyday.
http://www.dissentfromdarwin.org/
You are all smart enough to recognize many of the deceptive practices of evil men
but not diligent enough to uncover the real truth about God. 

Offline Nam

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Re: Thanks [#1239]
« Reply #17 on: April 19, 2009, 06:28:43 PM »
I admire the tenacity with which you defend your faith.

Faith is defined as:

[src: wiktionary.com]
Quote
Mental acceptance of and confidence in a claim as truth without proof supporting the claim.

I believe in facts not truth without facts. Therefore: I have no Faith.

Quote
You believe without undisputable proof that God does not exists.

I do not know whether God exists or not. There are Atheists who state that they believe 100% that there is no god but then those same Atheists would probably state that though they believe that, they can't prove it, therefore that is not Faith, either. They are not living in the delusion that they can without any evidence to back it up.

Quote
I
have been in many arguments in my lifetime and know that an obdurate adversary will
never concede.

Such as yourself?

Quote
He will however condemn the logic of an argument by using that same
logic or some other pseudo logic.

Such as yourself?

Quote
If that fails he will then attempt to hurt the
adversary feelings by calling them or their arguments names like idiot or stupid
there by attempting to belittle them.

Such as yourself?

Quote
This hurting of other people is a sign that our hearts are evil and wicked especially if one derives a feeling of pleasure or satisfaction from this act.

Speaking of yourself?

Quote
I for one despise my own heart and know it is evil and pray every day for God to give me a good one.

So, you are speaking of yourself?

Quote
Most of your arguments are intelligently constructed and even I admit that I have philosophical and religious questions that man or Bible cannot answer.

It's nice of you to say.

Quote
Still, like you, I believe by faith.

No, you believe by Faith. I do not. I explained this above. Can't you read? Oh, you haven't received the message yet. My bad.
 
Quote
I also call all religions and gods fake except the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob
in the Holy Bible.

So, Judaism is a real? Islam is real?

Quote
There are over 300 different registered Christian denominations in the world today and I have found fault with every denomination I have studied.

Yes but there are over 38,000 Christian denominations in total. I don't know if they are "registered" (how does one get registered? Is it like registering to vote? Is there an application?) but they exist, nonetheless.

Quote
Most misquote, misinterpret or rewrite the Holy Scriptures.

I'm sure just like your particular denomination does, as well.

Quote
They purposely or unintentionally use religion to further their own gains.

Like yours, right?

Quote
They make up things that are not in the Scriptures and tell lies that mislead the simpleminded.

Like yours, right?

Quote
This also supports the claim that man’s heart is evil and wicked and fits the definition of many ravenous wolves amongst the sheep predicted by the Bible for the end times.

So, when are these End of Times? I heard it was back in 1999 for 2000 yet nothing happened. Why not? Let's Party-Hearty, Dudes!
 
Quote
Admittedly I can give no undisputable reason for you to abandon your faith.

Again: Not a Faith.

Quote
I can however give witness to the reasons for my own faith.

When are you going to be doing that?

Quote
Archeology has proven the Bible to be the most accurate record of ancient history that we have today.

Proof?

Quote
Babylon, Jericho, and the Erastus stone are but a few of the most recent discoveries.  These are facts not fairytales.

That doesn't mean that Jesus existed nor does it mean that God exists. Buildings can be proven to exist so far I've seen none for the former two.

Quote
The most compelling evidence comes from the Dead Sea scrolls.

How so?

Quote
Particularly the Book of Daniel and this is why.  The Dead Sea scrolls produced a nearly one hundred percent complete Book of Daniel which carbon dated to 125 BCE worst case view. (http://www.harvardhouse.com/Gabriel-to-Daniel_Einstein_Method.htm).  This copy is
identical to the modern copies we have today except for some minor spelling errors. The Book of Daniel predicts the fall of the Babylonian empire by the Medes and Persians.  It even names the King, Cyrus which is proven by archeological evidence.  Daniel then further predicts that the Medes and Persians will be conquered by Greece and the Greek empire conquered by another unnamed empire which history says is Rome.  This last empire was predicted to be divided from within not conquered by another empire and again history bears this out.  Daniel also predicted the 1260 year rule of the Anti-Christ to arise from the divided kingdoms of “Rome”.  That is someone who takes the place of Christ not someone who is openly against Christ.  Historycalls this the dark or middle ages when a corrupt church ruled over the Kings of Europe.  The rule of this Beast or Anti-Christ ended in 1798 when Napoleon used military force to take the Pope captive. This is all history. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_States)  The Bible predicted how and when this first Beast would fall but not who would do it.  The next prediction of this Book is that shortly after the fall of the first Beast or Anti-Christ a new nation arising
from a relatively sparsely populated part of the earth, Christian in its appearance
would eventually become a second Beast power. The US is the only Christian nation to
appear around this time eventually becoming a world super power.  In fulfillment of
prophecy the US is using its military for political and economic gain under the
guise of “keeping the peace” around the world.  The Romans after all conquered the
world under the claim of “Pax Romana” or Roman Peace.  This is no coincidence.  This
second Beast will mimic the first Beast and impose its power over the rulers of the
whole earth and the first Beast would eventually recover and regain its power and
prestige being helped by the second Beast. 

What a story. Did you take a breath in all that? Or did you just copy/paste that from somewhere? Let's find out, shall we? No, you did it all in one breath. Congratulations.

Quote
If this last prediction is true then we should see Christian churches around the US trying to gain control over the government and the government using these churches
to subjugate the people.  Our government should be in league with the Vatican and
start to make laws governing the spiritual morality of the people.

Ever heard of "Separation of Church and State"? Should look into it.

Quote
Before you scoff I suggest you watch the videos on YouTube under the titles of FEMA
camps, FEMA coffins, and FEMA pastors. 

Oh, are you an "End of Times" maniac? Oh, say it ain't so, Joe? Say it ain't so?

Quote
Our government is planning something and I don’t believe it’s going to be good.  My
greatest fear in the world today does not come from Muslims, Jews, Buddhists,
Atheists, Hindu’s, Wicca’s, Spiritualists or any other religious or political
organization.  I fear apostate Christians those who want to force their beliefs onto
others and the governments that support and use these people for  purposes.
Atheists are my greatest allies out side of my own faith.  Their fight to keep
religion and Christianity out of the government is to every ones advantage even if I
don’t agree with their reasons.  I want to thank you all.  Liberty of conscience is
what this country was built on not Christianity.

You are...so sad. No point in speaking to you any further.

:'(

-Nam
A god is like a rock: it does absolutely nothing until someone or something forces it to do something. The only capability the rock has is doing nothing until another force compels it physically to move.

The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously - Humphrey

Offline Sheep Extreme

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Re: Thanks [#1239]
« Reply #18 on: April 19, 2009, 06:40:40 PM »
Quote
I admit that I have philosophical and religious
questions that man or Bible cannot answer.

OP, please explain to me why it's necessary to believe beyond this point?  Especially with regards to questions about religion, seeing as how that's the whole purpose of the Bible in the first place.
Theists are like Helen Keller.  Deaf, blind, and dumb.

Deaf to reason.
Blind to the truth.
And, well... just dumb.

Offline Dkit

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Re: Thanks [#1239]
« Reply #19 on: April 20, 2009, 09:11:52 AM »
Quote from: op
Dkit
Offering pseudo logic and verbal double talk to support you arguments is counter productive.  I assume you have faith in some form of science to explain the existence of our universe, life on this planet… and I would be glad to argue any intelligent point you can make.
What are you talking about?  I don't need to have faith in science.  Science shows us it works.  If it doesn't, it goes back to the drawing board, so to speak.  I also don't need to know how the universe came into existence to live my life.  Since my life is not dependent on this, I don't need to fill in the blanks with made up information.
 
Quote
Your argument to dispute the history and archaeology of the Bible is amazingly short and lacks a single fact.  This usually happens when the argument is already lost and the proponent attempts to belittle what he knows he can’t logically disprove.  I don’t have “The Bible Unearthed” but from what I’ve been able to gather it argues the lack of archaeological evidence is proof.  These arguments never stand the test of time, are unscientific and many archaeologists disagree with his findings.
Israel Finkelstien
http://www.ask.com/bar?q=israel+finkelstein&page=1&qsrc=0&ab=4&u=http%3A%2F%2Fprophetess.lstc.edu%2F%7Erklein%2FDocuments%2Fgrounds.htm

Please show how the lack of evidence for 1 million people roaming the desert for 40 years does not support the logical conclusion that the exodus didn't happen as described?

Quote
Ron Wyatt Discovering the Exodus Part 1
Ron Wyatt was not an archeologist.  How can someone set out to find the truth in history when they've already determined what that truth is? 

Overview of the claims of RW

Quote from: op
Proving the Bible through Archaeology Part 1

Please show how Pascal's Wager has anything to do with biblical archeology.  FAIL.  I'm willing to admit that some people and places in the bible are historical.  I'll even admit to some events in the bible, such as being exiled to Babylon, but that in no way means the enitirety of the bible and the supernatural claim within are also historical and based in reality. 

Quote
Deconvertedone & Dkit
You say you are disturbed by someone who knows that they are wicked in nature and prays for God’s help everyday.  I say your concern comes from your own heart that is to say you know the evil your own heart is capable of and fear this in others because you have no faith in God to save you from it or them. 
Please speak only for yourself.  I have no concern about my heart being evil, since my heart is used to bump the blood that circulates oxygen in my body.  No evil can reside in a heart. 

Quote
You mistakenly believe that all religious people are demented. 
Again, speak only for yourself.  I never said religious people are demented.  I said the people emailing the site are needlessly overcome with the idea that they are evil and undeserving.  It is sad.
That hardly summarized ALL religous people.
 
Quote
The real danger comes from the man who thinks God has purified him so that he can do no wrong or that thinks he is good in nature to begin with.  These are the people who commit terrible atrocities many times in the very name of God never questioning their own actions.

So, what exaclty does religion do for anyone?  There is no way to objectively show who is "purified" and who is not.  You cannot support anything you are claiming is a part of reality.

Quote from: op
By the way religious statues are an abomination unto God as are all the apostate religions that make them.  Your intellectual prowess is amazing to be able to debate the Bible without thoroughly reading it or clearly understanding its foundational principles.  I am hard pressed to dispute your findings.

Nice jab.  There is no reason to believe your interpretations of the bible are better or more accurate than anyone else's.  If they are an abomination, why doesn't God do anything about it?  He had no problems straightening people out in the OT, but now, with the ability to use technology to evaluate the claims made, he is no where to be found.  I wonder why?

Quote from: op
Everyone
Many of the claims of Darwinism have been effectively disproved mathematically or otherwise which makes any further claims of other proofs the acts of desperate men.  Here is a link to a list of nearly 700 scientists that no longer believe in Darwin’s theory of evolution and the list is growing bigger everyday.  http://www.dissentfromdarwin.org/ You are all smart enough to recognize many of the deceptive practices of evil men but not diligent enough to uncover the real truth about God.
How does evolution impact my life?

Evolution is a fact.  Get over it.  I'm sure you have no problems with the Theory of Gravity or any other theory that doesn't directly conflict with your holy book. 
« Last Edit: April 20, 2009, 09:32:33 AM by Dkit »
"The Bible is a Banquet table not a snack tray!" - Anonymous Facebook User

Offline Dkit

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Re: Thanks [#1239]
« Reply #20 on: April 20, 2009, 09:35:46 AM »
And here is a link to The Clergy Letter Project.  It is signed by 11,891 Christian clergy who have no problem with the ToE.
"The Bible is a Banquet table not a snack tray!" - Anonymous Facebook User

Offline Cycle4Fun

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Re: Thanks [#1239]
« Reply #21 on: April 20, 2009, 12:46:56 PM »
Quote
I admire the tenacity with which you defend your faith

And right there, with the very first sentence, my enthusiasm to read this post died.

I then scrolled down and saw that the OP did nothing but quote me Bible verses, probabilities of proteins forming, quantum mechanics, archaeology showing the Bible is accurate yadda, yadda, yadda.

The first sentence was a FAIL... I didn't read any farther than that.

I did the same thing Irish.  Only I noted that he used incorrect probabilities of proteins forming and a complete misrepresentation and false statement of quantum mechanics and the fantastic argument that Jerusalem exists, therefor the Bible is true.
How do you define soul?
"A baseless assertion by simple-minded, superstitious individuals"
   -Starstuff

Offline Cycle4Fun

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Re: Thanks [#1239]
« Reply #22 on: April 20, 2009, 12:57:35 PM »
While the Clergy letter project is nice, I prefer Project Steve.  Approximately 1% of people in the US are qualified to sign Project Steve.  There are currently 1082 signatories of Project Steve.  The majority of signatories work in biology or a related field.  Most have a PhD in science.

We can infer that at least 108,200 scientists support the theory and fact of evolution.  It is at least this number as many people are indifferent or have never heard of project Steve.  Either way, Project Steve has the equivalent of 155 times more signatories than your list.  How many Steve's have signed your list?
How do you define soul?
"A baseless assertion by simple-minded, superstitious individuals"
   -Starstuff

Offline Odin

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Re: Thanks [#1239]
« Reply #23 on: April 20, 2009, 01:10:53 PM »
Archaeology has proven the Bible to be the most accurate record of ancient history
that we have today.  Babylon, Jericho, and the Erastus stone are but a few of the
most recent discoveries.  These are facts not fairytales.

No.  Read "The Bible Unearthed" by Finkelstein and Silberman.  Written in 2001, they find no evidence to support most of the OT claims.  In fact, they refute one of the biggest assumptions, that the Israelites were enslaved in Egypt and escaped during the Exodus.


Quote
The chance of a single protein combining by random chance I am told is 1 in 1x10 to
the sixtieth power.  The chance of snatching a single atom from all the matter in
the universe is 1 in 1x10 to the thirtieth power and 1 in 1x10 to the fiftieth power
is scientifically considered to be zero or no chance.

Each time you shuffle and deal all the cards in a deck of 52 cards, you have odds of a little over 8 x 10 to the 67th power to one against having that exact deal (52 factorial). 

If there were a trillion worlds in the universe, each one with a trillion people, and each person had a trillion computers, and each computer could deal a trillion deals each second, and no two deals could be repeated, and the computers had been dealing for 13 billion years since the big bang happened, all that would have to exist in 197 parallel universes for all those deals to have been dealt.

So, every time you shuffle and deal the cards, an impossibility, from a statistical standpoint, has taken place.  A miracle has occurred!

So, no.  You have not stated any proof.

Odin, Statistical King of the Gods

« Last Edit: April 20, 2009, 02:15:28 PM by Odin »

Offline Dkit

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Re: Thanks [#1239]
« Reply #24 on: April 20, 2009, 02:12:38 PM »
While the Clergy letter project is nice, I prefer Project Steve
Thanks for that.  I completely forgot about it. 
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Offline none

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Re: Thanks [#1239]
« Reply #25 on: June 14, 2009, 09:47:59 PM »
OP responds via email:
None
Using pseudo logic and verbal double talk is not really a better or different
definition it’s just confusing and evasive.  This practice is usually enacted by
people who are afraid that others will see them as simpleminded and attempt to cover
this up by ridiculing any intelligent argument that they can’t win.  I assume you
have faith in some form of science to explain the existence of our universe, life on
this planet… and I would be glad to argue any intelligent or intellectual point you
can make.
 
for crying out loud, it was a summary of what you posted!!
you couldn't even begin to qualify what is intelligent or intellectual.
keep trying though its good for laughs.
see ya, but not your imaginary god.