Author Topic: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.  (Read 22061 times)

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Offline inveni0

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Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
« Reply #29 on: June 28, 2009, 07:59:26 PM »
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You're also a liar.  You were never devoted to the Bible, else you would have remembered the story of Job.  You would have remembered the passages of Isaiah.  You would have remembered the predicaments of Paul and Silas.

If you are not a liar, then you are simply still in your living purgatory.  God will help you, as soon as you find the will to praise Him, even in suffering.  I know...it doesn't sound rational.  But if you aren't a liar, then you know it's true.  You've just been distracted.

Thank you for your "Christ Like Spirit".  You say I am a liar because I don't equate Gods' total ambivalence towards me as a Job like test, or a Paul and Silas Like test.  My answer to you is that in close to 30 years of believing in God and praising Him and all of the other, He never once did anything for me - like He did for Job or Paul and Silas.  After decades of being a follower, I realized that God was not reciprocal in our relationship.  But thanks again for the judgement.  It is a nice reminder of how peaceful my life has become since I left the fold of believers.


Judgment?  I said that you are either or.  You decided to be a liar.  That's okay.  I'm a liar, too.  You just need to be honest with yourself.  Tell me...what did God do for Job after killing his family, destroying his livelihood and cursing him with boils?  Tell me, what did God do for Paul and Silas after sending them into a cruel and hartless world, causing them to be jailed, then freed, only to die sad and alone--without material or family?  Really...tell me.

You need to decide what you want from God.  Then, decide how that fits even remotely with the Bible you were so religiously devoted to.  Peruse scripture and find a place where God promised you an easy time--or even a 'normal' time.  Then, maybe you'll realize that you were never devoted to God, but instead to the lies you were fed about him as a child.  He is not who you think he is.  And it's good that you realize that now.  But it's bad that you do not continue to seek him.
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Offline none

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Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
« Reply #30 on: June 28, 2009, 08:00:32 PM »
oh god high up the heavens set me on fire.

Offline Emily

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Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
« Reply #31 on: June 28, 2009, 08:01:35 PM »
[bookmark]
"Great moments are born from great opportunities." Herb Brooks

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Offline Cynic

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Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
« Reply #32 on: June 28, 2009, 08:06:13 PM »
Can you feel the Christian love?
Quote
At least two thirds of our miseries spring from human stupidity, human malice and those great motivators and justifiers of malice and stupidity, idealism, dogmatism and proselytizing zeal on behalf of religious or political idols.
Aldous Huxley

Offline LonestarGrandad

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Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
« Reply #33 on: June 28, 2009, 08:12:55 PM »
Initially, your post reminded me of so many Christians that I have known who pass judgment on people because we do not all walk in lockstep with what they believe.

After your second post, I can see where you are coming from.  You say that I was never devoted to the Bible because I hold God responsible for not answering my prayers.  Instead, I should have suffered in silence.  But, according to the Bible, God gave job back what had lost through his time of testing.  God also answered many prayers of Paul and Silas ( including the one where God sent angel to physically free him from prison.  According to the Bible, God was interactive with Job and Paul and Silas.  So, being a Bible devoted Christian, I believed that God would be interactive in my life as well.  Being a Bible devoted Christian, I knew that I could be tested by God, but I should also have some sort of communion with Him. 

So it is true, I was devoted to the God of the Christian Bible.  He is not who the Bible says He is.  Having said that, I don't know why I should still seek Him.
"Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards."  Soren Kierkegaard

Offline LonestarGrandad

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Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
« Reply #34 on: June 28, 2009, 08:17:52 PM »
stupid question:  what does bookmark mean?
"Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards."  Soren Kierkegaard

Offline Emily

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Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
« Reply #35 on: June 28, 2009, 08:20:26 PM »
Simply put, it means I'm going to be following this thread closer than others.
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Offline LonestarGrandad

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Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
« Reply #36 on: June 28, 2009, 08:21:04 PM »
Thanks, I thought it might be something like that.
"Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards."  Soren Kierkegaard

Offline none

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Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
« Reply #37 on: June 28, 2009, 08:22:53 PM »
can't you see...
its clear as day: an omnipresent omnipotent loving god who rapes and pillages, commits genocide and basically ignores your prayers wants you to seek him.
plus he, god, works in mysterious ways.

Offline inveni0

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Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
« Reply #38 on: June 28, 2009, 08:33:31 PM »
But, according to the Bible, God gave job back what had lost through his time of testing.  God also answered many prayers of Paul and Silas ( including the one where God sent angel to physically free him from prison.  According to the Bible, God was interactive with Job and Paul and Silas.

Can you please share Book, Chapter, Verse, Translation?  I don't remember them ever winding up better off than I--or with more evidence of God than I.
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Offline LonestarGrandad

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Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
« Reply #39 on: June 28, 2009, 08:48:56 PM »
Acts Chapter 5 KJV
14And believers were the more added to the Lord, multitudes both of men and women.)
15Insomuch that they brought forth the sick into the streets, and laid them on beds and couches, that at the least the shadow of Peter passing by might overshadow some of them.
16There came also a multitude out of the cities round about unto Jerusalem, bringing sick folks, and them which were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed every one.
17Then the high priest rose up, and all they that were with him, (which is the sect of the Sadducees,) and were filled with indignation,
18And laid their hands on the apostles, and put them in the common prison.
19But the angel of the Lord by night opened the prison doors, and brought them forth, and said,
20Go, stand and speak in the temple to the people all the words of this life.

According to this, Peter had immensely more proof that God exists than I ever did.

My story is simple.  I didn't need God to send an angel down into a prison and set me free.  All I needed was for Him to share 3 measly little words with me:  "Don't take aspirin." 

Edit:  Translation added
Edit:  wrong apostle
« Last Edit: June 28, 2009, 08:51:22 PM by LonestarGrandad »
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Offline inveni0

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Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
« Reply #40 on: June 28, 2009, 09:02:11 PM »
All I needed was for Him to share 3 measly little words with me:  "Don't take aspirin."  

So you give your ailment to science, then blame God when it doesn't work?  Really?  I'm not against science, but there are plenty of warnings on Asprin bottles, and common sense.  Mayhap I'm alone here, but I don't need God to tell me to use common sense.  Neither should you.

EDIT:  Let me add something here.  When I was facing what I strongly believed to be schizophrenia, and I was constantly surrounded by what I now believe to be demons, I sought refuge in science.  But science wouldn't help me.  Three different doctors denied medication.  After sharing horrifying visions, I was told by three different doctors (not Christians) that they believed it would pass, and that there was nothing wrong with me.  See...I had turned my back on God--I tried to live life my own way, and he chose to reveal to me the realm of evil.  Was it real?  I'm not sure...to this day, I'm not sure.  But I do know that it only stopped when I found myself in the middle of a field, running from a demon.  I looked to the sky, I threw my hands up, and I said, "I can't do this on my own!  Please, help me!"  Immediately, the visions were gone.  Self fulfilled?  Perhaps.  But my heart tells me otherwise.  And sometimes I have to do what feels right...and not just what feels better.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2009, 09:09:39 PM by inveni0 »
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Offline LonestarGrandad

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Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
« Reply #41 on: June 28, 2009, 09:11:21 PM »
First of all,
You shouldn't ask for chapter and verse, and then when it is given, ignore it as if it is no longer important.  Wouldn't you agree that Peter had more proof that God exists than you or I?  God sent an angel to free him from prison.  That seems pretty interactive.  Doesn't it?

Secondly,
WHAT???  I'm not blaming God that I am allergic to aspirin.  I am simply stating that if God does exist, and the Bible is true, and He does answer prayer, and He knows me so well that even the hairs of my head are numbered, why wouldn't he share with me the fact that I am allergic to aspirin?  He doesn't have to take the allergy away, simply inform me of it.  It would have been a loving thing to do.  Ultimately, through testing, I learned of my allergy and it is no longer in issue - but no thanks to God.

EDIT:  I don't think you read my original post or you would have understood the aspirin comment.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2009, 09:15:01 PM by LonestarGrandad »
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Offline none

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Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
« Reply #42 on: June 28, 2009, 09:17:28 PM »
using common sense would negate the bible (something that IS worshiped).

Offline Ananukia

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Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
« Reply #43 on: June 28, 2009, 09:29:40 PM »
All I needed was for Him to share 3 measly little words with me:  "Don't take aspirin." 

So you give your ailment to science, then blame God when it doesn't work?  Really?  I'm not against science, but there are plenty of warnings on Asprin bottles, and common sense.  Mayhap I'm alone here, but I don't need God to tell me to use common sense.  Neither should you.

EDIT:  Let me add something here.  When I was facing what I strongly believed to be schizophrenia, and I was constantly surrounded by what I now believe to be demons, I sought refuge in science.  But science wouldn't help me.  Three different doctors denied medication.  After sharing horrifying visions, I was told by three different doctors (not Christians) that they believed it would pass, and that there was nothing wrong with me.  See...I had turned my back on God--I tried to live life my own way, and he chose to reveal to me the realm of evil.  Was it real?  I'm not sure...to this day, I'm not sure.  But I do know that it only stopped when I found myself in the middle of a field, running from a demon.  I looked to the sky, I threw my hands up, and I said, "I can't do this on my own!  Please, help me!"  Immediately, the visions were gone.  Self fulfilled?  Perhaps.  But my heart tells me otherwise.  And sometimes I have to do what feels right...and not just what feels better.

God hates lairs, I hope you know that.

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    Must die unheard in

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Offline LonestarGrandad

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Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
« Reply #44 on: June 28, 2009, 09:33:15 PM »
Where have I lied?
"Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards."  Soren Kierkegaard

Offline Emily

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Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
« Reply #45 on: June 28, 2009, 09:35:00 PM »
Quote
EDIT:  Let me add something here.  When I was facing what I strongly believed to be schizophrenia, and I was constantly surrounded by what I now believe to be demons, I sought refuge in science.  But science wouldn't help me.  Three different doctors denied medication.  After sharing horrifying visions, I was told by three different doctors (not Christians) that they believed it would pass, and that there was nothing wrong with me.  See...I had turned my back on God--I tried to live life my own way, and he chose to reveal to me the realm of evil.  Was it real?  I'm not sure...to this day, I'm not sure.  But I do know that it only stopped when I found myself in the middle of a field, running from a demon.  I looked to the sky, I threw my hands up, and I said, "I can't do this on my own!  Please, help me!"  Immediately, the visions were gone.  Self fulfilled?  Perhaps.  But my heart tells me otherwise.  And sometimes I have to do what feels right...and not just what feels better.

Funny, when I turned my back on god and became an atheist I never experienced anything horrible like that. (I should note that I was very deeply devoted to god)

 It was all in your mind dude. No demons.
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Offline LonestarGrandad

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Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
« Reply #46 on: June 28, 2009, 09:37:04 PM »
Quote
EDIT:  Let me add something here.  When I was facing what I strongly believed to be schizophrenia, and I was constantly surrounded by what I now believe to be demons, I sought refuge in science.  But science wouldn't help me.  Three different doctors denied medication.  After sharing horrifying visions, I was told by three different doctors (not Christians) that they believed it would pass, and that there was nothing wrong with me.  See...I had turned my back on God--I tried to live life my own way, and he chose to reveal to me the realm of evil.  Was it real?  I'm not sure...to this day, I'm not sure.  But I do know that it only stopped when I found myself in the middle of a field, running from a demon.  I looked to the sky, I threw my hands up, and I said, "I can't do this on my own!  Please, help me!"  Immediately, the visions were gone.  Self fulfilled?  Perhaps.  But my heart tells me otherwise.  And sometimes I have to do what feels right...and not just what feels better.

Funny, when I turned my back on god and became an atheist I never experienced anything horrible like that. (I should note that I was very deeply devoted to god)

 It was all in your mind dude. No demons.


These demons didn't happen to me, they happened to the believer who thinks I am a liar.
"Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards."  Soren Kierkegaard

Offline Emily

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Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
« Reply #47 on: June 28, 2009, 09:39:02 PM »
Quote
EDIT:  Let me add something here.  When I was facing what I strongly believed to be schizophrenia, and I was constantly surrounded by what I now believe to be demons, I sought refuge in science.  But science wouldn't help me.  Three different doctors denied medication.  After sharing horrifying visions, I was told by three different doctors (not Christians) that they believed it would pass, and that there was nothing wrong with me.  See...I had turned my back on God--I tried to live life my own way, and he chose to reveal to me the realm of evil.  Was it real?  I'm not sure...to this day, I'm not sure.  But I do know that it only stopped when I found myself in the middle of a field, running from a demon.  I looked to the sky, I threw my hands up, and I said, "I can't do this on my own!  Please, help me!"  Immediately, the visions were gone.  Self fulfilled?  Perhaps.  But my heart tells me otherwise.  And sometimes I have to do what feels right...and not just what feels better.

Funny, when I turned my back on god and became an atheist I never experienced anything horrible like that. (I should note that I was very deeply devoted to god)

 It was all in your mind dude. No demons.


These demons didn't happen to me, they happened to the believer who thinks I am a liar.


OH, I know, I was commenting on invenl0.
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Offline LonestarGrandad

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Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
« Reply #48 on: June 28, 2009, 09:40:21 PM »
annanukia, Why call me a liar?
"Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards."  Soren Kierkegaard

Offline LonestarGrandad

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Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
« Reply #49 on: June 28, 2009, 09:42:55 PM »
envinio, what is your response to post 41?
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Offline inveni0

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Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
« Reply #50 on: June 28, 2009, 09:54:16 PM »
First of all,
You shouldn't ask for chapter and verse, and then when it is given, ignore it as if it is no longer important.  Wouldn't you agree that Peter had more proof that God exists than you or I?  God sent an angel to free him from prison.  That seems pretty interactive.  Doesn't it?

Secondly,
WHAT???  I'm not blaming God that I am allergic to aspirin.  I am simply stating that if God does exist, and the Bible is true, and He does answer prayer, and He knows me so well that even the hairs of my head are numbered, why wouldn't he share with me the fact that I am allergic to aspirin?  He doesn't have to take the allergy away, simply inform me of it.  It would have been a loving thing to do.  Ultimately, through testing, I learned of my allergy and it is no longer in issue - but no thanks to God.

EDIT:  I don't think you read my original post or you would have understood the aspirin comment.

I understand the aspirin comment.  I just think you're being unreasonable.  I'm allergic to coconut...I found that out the hard way.  Never once did it even cross my mind to blame God for not giving me a handbook with all of my earthly weakness laid out and numbered.

I asked for chapter and verse so that you would read it again.  I hoped that you would think about "after" the "miracles" these people experienced.  Let's make it clear:  Lost family, pain and suffering, brutal beatings...these are things you don't just rectify.  Job didn't get his family back.  Paul and Silas saw an angel that saved them from prison?  They were locked in a dark, damp dungeon with hardly any food and drink...I don't know if I trust any of what they saw.  Regardless, where were the angels any other time?  Why did they still die alone and suffering?


Funny, when I turned my back on god and became an atheist I never experienced anything horrible like that. (I should note that I was very deeply devoted to god)

 It was all in your mind dude. No demons.

I wasn't going to reply to anyone else, but I have to agree with you.  The only thing that makes me wonder is that I have several accounts of others experiencing these things when around me.  For instance, my girlfriend at the time (now my wife) had been talking to me on the phone.  One of my ears was pressed against my pillow.  The other had my earpiece.  As she was speaking, I heard a female voice (I became convinced that the primary demon following me was female).  What freaked me out was that I heard it only in the ear pressed against the pillow.  I tried to ignore it, but my wife said, "What was that?"  I didn't want to feed her any information, so I said, "What was what?"  She said, "I thought I heard a voice."  I asked, "What kind of voice."  She said, "A girl's voice."  Could that still be in my head?  Perhaps I made the sound myself...some sort of split personality thing coming through...I honestly don't know.

Another instance was after we were married.  I was having a dream that I was holding my son when a demon entered my body.  I immediately put him down so that I/the demon wouldn't hurt him.  I ran downstairs as the demon took full control.  I started writhing on the floor, licking the carpet.  At that exact moment, my wife called my name and I woke up.  I rolled over, my mouth dry, and said, "What do you want?"  She asked, "What's going on?"  I said, "What do you mean?"  She said, "You were just sitting up, and your eyes were glowing."  Again...was this in my head?

My mind tells me none of this happened.  My wife vouches for this and many other tales, (as well as some other people and friends).  If not for that, I wouldn't question my insanity.  But when I asked to be set free...I was.  Maybe it was of my own doing...maybe not.  But I choose to follow what my heart tells me is true, and that's my choice to make.

EDIT: Were you deeply devoted to God, or to religion, instruction and ritual?

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« Last Edit: June 28, 2009, 10:00:53 PM by inveni0 »
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Offline Ananukia

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Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
« Reply #51 on: June 28, 2009, 09:57:59 PM »
annanukia, Why call me a liar?

I was talking to envinio
        Songs that the Hyades shall sing,
    Where flap the tatters of the King,
    Must die unheard in

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Offline LonestarGrandad

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Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
« Reply #52 on: June 28, 2009, 10:05:31 PM »
But, according to the Bible, God gave job back what had lost through his time of testing.  God also answered many prayers of Paul and Silas ( including the one where God sent angel to physically free him from prison.  According to the Bible, God was interactive with Job and Paul and Silas.

Can you please share Book, Chapter, Verse, Translation?  I don't remember them ever winding up better off than I--or with more evidence of God than I.

You say that you only asked for chapter and verse so that I would look it up and read it again.  But look at your quote above.  "Please share chapter and verse . . . I don't remember them winding up . . . with more evidence of God than I.  Clearly you wanted chapter and verse to show they were better off and had more evidence of God than you.  Angels walking up to you, talking to you, opening locked doors for you, are all examples of these people having more evidence of God than you or I - If you believe the Bible.
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Offline Emily

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Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
« Reply #53 on: June 28, 2009, 10:09:55 PM »
Quote
EDIT: Were you deeply devoted to God, or to religion, instruction and ritual?

I went to two church serviced on Sunday, service on Wednesday, youth on Friday and choir practice. Also My devotion ran very deep. I'd pray, worship, witness, everything. Not to mention I attended church camps and conferences.
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Offline LonestarGrandad

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Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
« Reply #54 on: June 28, 2009, 10:21:47 PM »
I understand the aspirin comment.  I just think you're being unreasonable.  I'm allergic to coconut...I found that out the hard way.  Never once did it even cross my mind to blame God for not giving me a handbook with all of my earthly weakness laid out and numbered.

You are missing the entire point of this thread.  I am not blaming God for not giving me a handbook.

This site claims that since God doesn't work miracles, He doesn't exist.  This thread is my response to that supposition.

If the Bible is true, if God answers prayer, if anything we ask believing we shall receive, if God knows how to give His children what they need more than we do, if God talks to us through a still small voice, if God will heal the sick, give sight to the blind, raise up the dead, if we can do all the works that Jesus did and more because He went to the Father, if Peter's shadow could heal the sick, if Paul could be bitten by a serpent and not die and if all the other miraculous things in the Bible are true . . . then God would be doing these things today.

But my personal story doesn't require God to do any of these miraculous things.  I am simply stating the fact that over the course of decades of being a steadfast believer, God could have shown Himself to be what the bible says He is and given me a moment of His attention.  Not a miracle, just a moment.
"Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards."  Soren Kierkegaard

Offline LonestarGrandad

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Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
« Reply #55 on: June 28, 2009, 11:01:10 PM »
How about I dumb down the words of Epicurus and apply them to my situation.

Is God willing to tell me how to avoid breaking out in hives, but not able?
   Then He is not omnipotent.
Is God able to tell me but not willing?
   Then He is malevolent.
Is God both able and willing to keep me from breaking out in hives?
   Then why am I still breaking out?
Is God neither able nor willing?
   Then why believe in Him.

As a father, if you knew how to ease the pain of your child, would you? 


Thanks Cynic
"Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards."  Soren Kierkegaard

Offline Mar

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Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
« Reply #56 on: June 29, 2009, 04:01:50 AM »
inveni0, do not insult human beings just because your God is doing a s**tty job convincing us that he is real. No evidence, no belief. That's called reason, dear. I'm sorry that we threaten your little delusion with our stories. You know this or you wouldn't be calling LonestarGrandad a liar. Usually, when I want to HELP someone I don't call them a liar merely because I want them to be one. You live with US, not God. Treat us with a little respect and learn a little something called "reading comprehension." I know it makes you feel "special" and powerful when you convert people, but please leave that up to God because you are doing a terrible job. If God doesn't convince us of his existence then we're destined to Hell then. While enjoying our current pain-free lives, we would prefer if you did not give us headaches. Thanks.

P.S. If the Muslims are right, I guess I'll see you in Hell, also. Don't bother me too much.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2009, 04:03:57 AM by Mar »
On Permanent Hiatus. :D

Offline Agga

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Re: Either God loathes my very existence or He is imaginary.
« Reply #57 on: June 29, 2009, 04:44:11 AM »
Tell me...what did God do for Job after killing his family, destroying his livelihood and cursing him with boils?

Won the bet between him and satan?  Undo all the horrible thngs that he allowed satan to do to win that bet?

What a pal.



What's your point, that because god undone the horrible things that he allowed satan to do to Job that we should all believe that god will do that same for to us?


So, god did it for 'X' 'Y' 'Z' person in scripture which means that a person is a liar because god doesn't do that same thing for them.

Is that, and calling someone a liar, your basic counter-argument to the experiences of the thread starter?


That's it?


Dear oh dear..
I've left WWGHA now, so do everyone else a favour and don't bother replying to my old posts and necromancing my threads.