Author Topic: RE: why God won't heal amputees. [#1456]  (Read 358 times)

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Offline DL

RE: why God won't heal amputees. [#1456]
« on: June 02, 2009, 08:20:51 PM »
I was looking over your Chapter 5 about amputees and I saw some flaws in your logic. While I am not a religious person, I have studied on both sides of this argument andcan see objectively on things.

I understand you are trying to disprove the existence of God. However, you do need to rewrite some of your arguments to tak it tha actual rationals behind religion, not ones you made up to prove your point.

Take the list following "Isn't that odd? The situation becomes even more peculiar when you look at who God is. According to the Standard Model of God: " You describe God, Jesus and the Bible. However, you don't actually describe them as they are, you do it as you want them to be.

Once you make the conclusion that God will do anything at any time in the way you want it, you cut off all debate that is still in evidence.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2009, 08:23:58 PM by DL »

Offline DL

Re: RE: why God won't heal amputees. [#1456]
« Reply #1 on: June 02, 2009, 08:23:12 PM »

However, you don't actually describe them as they are, you do it as you want them to be.


Please describe them as they are.

Offline velkyn

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Re: RE: why God won't heal amputees. [#1456]
« Reply #2 on: June 02, 2009, 09:06:17 PM »
I was looking over your Chapter 5 about amputees and I saw some flaws in your logic. While I am not a religious person, I have studied on both sides of this argument andcan see objectively on things.
I rather doubt that.  Most people who come here inssiting that they aren't "religious" are just theists who don't want the baggage that the term "religion" has.  But let's assume you aren't one of those.  Just what have you studied?  We have former pastors, various types of Christians, etc here.  You'll find that atheists and agnostics here are very interested in facts and objective claims and are very well-versed in religions, logic, etc.
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I understand you are trying to disprove the existence of God. However, you do need to rewrite some of your arguments to tak it tha actual rationals behind religion, not ones you made up to prove your point.
So, please tell us these "actual rationals" about religion.  Many of us were theists at some point.  We are quite familiar with religion and its practice.
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Take the list following "Isn't that odd? The situation becomes even more peculiar when you look at who God is. According to the Standard Model of God: " You describe God, Jesus and the Bible. However, you don't actually describe them as they are, you do it as you want them to be.
so, you are claiming that your Bible is wrong about God then?  That's where this "standard model" of God comes from.  I suspect you are simple one more theist who thinks that they have some magical ability to know what God "really is" and not so strangely it's what reflects what you like. 
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Once you make the conclusion that God will do anything at any time in the way you want it, you cut off all debate that is still in evidence.
Your bible gives that conclusion.  Your issue is with that. 
"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

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Offline Hermes

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Re: RE: why God won't heal amputees. [#1456]
« Reply #3 on: June 02, 2009, 09:54:48 PM »
Thank you for your calmly stated comments.  If you see any gaps in my reply below, please send a reply or join the forums and let me know.

I was looking over your Chapter 5 about amputees and I saw some flaws in your logic. While I am not a religious person, I have studied on both sides of this argument andcan see objectively on things.

I understand you are trying to disprove the existence of God.

Not really.  Proof is a concept of logic and math.  Outside of those disciplines, we generally take the preponderance of the evidence, and then make judgments based on that.

For example, are there sea nymphs that stir up the foam on the beaches, or do we have a more likely explanation?  If we did not, would the top of our list have nymphs on it?  Is a disproof of these foam making nymphs even necessary?  Claims about other unseen entities fall into the same category, though the details ascribed to each differ mainly based on the details of those claims.  A mouse that steals socks is possible, and even probable even if uncommon.  A world-wide conspiracy of smart mice that steal socks with a long-range goal is not.

The Christian deity -- as it is normally described by Christians, and in their religious texts -- is clearly not credible.  It is more unlikely than the mice or the nymphs.  It needs no formal disproof, just a description of what it is said to be, and then from that connecting the dots.  Anyone who wants to say it exists has to jump through many hoops, that's why Christians tend to talk about faith so much -- a concept that was not nearly as important to regular Christians a few hundred years ago.

As any deity drifts more towards the description of the god of the Deists (or generic deists), though, it becomes more credible even if not supported or likely.

However, you do need to rewrite some of your arguments to tak it tha actual rationals behind religion, not ones you made up to prove your point.

OK.  If there is an error or a weakness in the argument, I'll ask the moderators to pass it along to the maker of the videos and the web site's book.

(I didn't make either the videos or the book, so no promises.)

Take the list following "Isn't that odd? The situation becomes even more peculiar when you look at who God is. According to the Standard Model of God: " You describe God, Jesus and the Bible. However, you don't actually describe them as they are, you do it as you want them to be.

Note: I'm sure that the person(s) who wrote the text doesn't have any desire for any deity to exist in any specific way.  The Christian Bible makes claims and makes promises.  When compared to reality, it is clear that those promises are not kept, thus, as I see it there are only a limited number of logically possible conclusions (and only one credible one).   As I've written this many times, I'll just refer to my previous comments on this topic;

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Specifically;

1. The Christian Bible has promises in it.
2. The promises are said to be kept in ambiguous situations.
3. The promises are not kept in unambiguous situations, such as but not limited to amputees.

The potential conclusions are;

1. The book is wrong, but the Christian deity exists.
2. The book was right, but the Christian deity no longer honors the book though it could.
3. The book was right, but the Christian deity no longer honors the book because it can't.
4. The book is not relevant to the questions it raises because the Christian deity doesn't exist.
5. The book is not relevant the the questions it raises because some other deity or deities exist, not the Christian one.

As I see it, the most credible one in the list is #4 as it doesn't require any twisted explanations, nor supernatural acts.

Once you make the conclusion that God will do anything at any time in the way you want it, you cut off all debate that is still in evidence.

I'd need more details, though keep this in mind;

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Understanding the rationalizations

You can see that the amputee experiment reframes our conversation. No longer are we talking about "religion" or "faith" or "God's existence". What we are talking about here is the basic human ability to process factual information. Jesus makes a number of promises about prayer in the Bible:

    * If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer. [Matthew 21:21]

    * If you ask anything in my name, I will do it. [John 14:14]

    * Ask, and it will be given you. [Matthew 7:7]

    * Nothing will be impossible to you. [Matthew 17:20]

    * Believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. [Mark 11:24]

Are Jesus' promises true or false? By looking at amputees we can see that they are false. Jesus/God never answer prayers to spontaneously restore lost limbs, despite the promises in the Bible.

If you are a believer, and if this is the first time you have thought about the situation faced by amputees seriously, you may have a set of rationalizations and excuses swirling through your head right now. Let's examine them one by one.

Source: http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/rationalizations.htm
Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons. --Michael Shermer

The history of religion is a long attempt to reconcile old custom with new reason, to find a sound theory for an absurd practice.  --Sir James George Frazer

Offline MrFriday

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Re: RE: why God won't heal amputees. [#1456]
« Reply #4 on: June 03, 2009, 07:04:39 AM »
No one is saying you can "prove" god doesn't exist. All we're saying is that it is very apparent that God is imaginary. Proof is for mathematics.
"Faith is believing in something you know isn't true" - Mark Twain