Author Topic: Did a man named Jesus rise from the dead?  (Read 93556 times)

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Online jaimehlers

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Re: Did a man named Jesus rise from the dead?
« Reply #1943 on: August 26, 2013, 01:47:04 AM »
Yes but why, did they write about a man called Jesus. And why did an alleged historian, Josephus, who's works were published in the same era, bother to write about someone that didn't exist when his Empire sponsored work made so open a claim as to the integrity of His record.   But more importantly why did Rome allow the story to persist. Now , while you have wishful thinking, I have a theory. Take it or leave it :-)
Why did Rome allow the Jesus story (and by extension, the Christian religion) to persist?  For that matter, why did it allow the Jewish religion to persist?

The answer, of course, is that Rome was cosmopolitan enough to understand that trying to crush a religion would only make bitter enemies.  Thus, they were fairly tolerant of religious sects.  Their requirement was that those sects had to honor the Roman Emperor (which is where "give to Caesar what is Caesar's" really came from).  The reason that Christians were persecuted is because they refused to honor the Roman Emperor, even on pain of death or torture.

By the way, Josephus was as much of an 'alleged' historian as Nero was an 'alleged' emperor.  Just FYI, since you don't seem to have studied this subject particularly well.

Offline eartheconomyspirit

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Re: Did a man named Jesus rise from the dead?
« Reply #1944 on: August 26, 2013, 02:25:15 AM »
Yes but why, did they write about a man called Jesus. And why did an alleged historian, Josephus, who's works were published in the same era, bother to write about someone that didn't exist when his Empire sponsored work made so open a claim as to the integrity of His record.   But more importantly why did Rome allow the story to persist. Now , while you have wishful thinking, I have a theory. Take it or leave it :-)
Why did Rome allow the Jesus story (and by extension, the Christian religion) to persist?  For that matter, why did it allow the Jewish religion to persist?
Go(o)d questions at last. It's a governance thing. If the actual Jesus sayings or the preceding corruptions by the Maccabees and Cyrus ever saw the light of day, that would be the end of empires. You do realize the ruling class were outnumbered and had been duping their subjects for years. . The second part is a little more difficult. It seems to make more sense for Rome to just rid them selves of the Pharisees. The 62 letters that Agrippa II wrote suggest an unholy alliance was required to pull the whole deal off.  Also you got to remember these Romans weren't the sharpest tools in the woodshed and they'd all but written off any issue from the Jewish sector after the massacre of 70AD. Plus this Jewish faith was a side show and all they cared about was keeping the Jewish community under some for of Godly control.   

What's that you say. You have an answer. Let's see then

Quote
The answer, of course, is that Rome was cosmopolitan enough to understand that trying to crush a religion would only make bitter enemies.  Thus, they were fairly tolerant of religious sects.  Their requirement was that those sects had to honour the Roman Emperor (which is where "give to Caesar what is Caesar's" really came from).  The reason that Christians were persecuted is because they refused to honor the Roman Emperor, even on pain of death or torture.
.

Could  have been that as well.

Quote
By the way, Josephus was as much of an 'alleged' historian as Nero was an 'alleged' emperor.  Just FYI, since you don't seem to have studied this subject particularly well.

I thing, you've forgotten Nerva's role in all of this and those mysterious and coveted awards. In time , I think you'll need to review that position. Just doesn't make any sense at all that such a character would exist let alone behave in such a way. Oh did you check his age at the time of all his heroics :-)

 

Offline TripedalInstincts

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Re: Did a man named Jesus rise from the dead?
« Reply #1945 on: August 26, 2013, 04:46:45 PM »
Mind = blown  :)
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Offline BillyM67

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Re: Did a man named Jesus rise from the dead?
« Reply #1946 on: September 04, 2013, 11:11:33 AM »
Did Jesus rise from the dead? No. No one can rise from the dead, especailly not three days later. Dead is dead. Was there a man named Jesus who is the one written about in the bible? Possibly, but he was not the "son of god" and did not perform miracles. The bible was written by primitive men based on their beliefs, which, in turn, were based on religious beliefs that were already created by men before them. Basically, like most religions, a snowball affect.

Online nogodsforme

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Re: Did a man named Jesus rise from the dead?
« Reply #1947 on: September 05, 2013, 05:50:19 PM »
Anyone who proposes that a religion "has to be true because if it was a lie it would have died out" only needs to consider, let's see,  the continued persistence of Scientology, Moonies, Jehovah's Witnesses, Rastafarianism, Appalachian snake-handling cults, Mormons, Vodun, and on and on.

These were all clearly made up by people; the social context and historical antecedents of each are laid out for all to see on the internet. Yet they remain and keep gaining converts every day.

The 5000 year old polytheistic religion of Hinduism, practiced today by nearly a billion people, many of whom are willing to die for their faith, should be enough evidence that being untrue doesn't stop a religion.

Why would Christianity be any different? :?
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline wheels5894

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Re: Did a man named Jesus rise from the dead?
« Reply #1948 on: December 24, 2013, 07:26:42 AM »
This is an interesting point, nogodsforme. For some religion we can show that there religious texts are false.

The Mormon texts tell us the origin of the native Americans as being from Israel yet the DNA testing has shown that they came across from Russia some 13,000 years ago. We know the L Ron Hubbard started his religion because he wasn't allowed to practice his strange style of psychiatry. That's just two examples.

Given we have no idea and no way of knowing if any religion is, in fact, based on any actual god, we might as well as teat all as human inventions. I rather think that Paul is responsible for Christianity for example. of course, any believer in any religion could engage with others to show their religion is, actually, true but I don't think that will happen. After all, for a certain religion, killing people who leave it makes sure most people don't!  ;D
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Offline Hatter23

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Re: Did a man named Jesus rise from the dead?
« Reply #1949 on: December 24, 2013, 11:25:47 AM »


Why would Christianity be any different? :?

Special pleading, that's why.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline wheels5894

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Re: Did a man named Jesus rise from the dead?
« Reply #1950 on: December 24, 2013, 02:59:49 PM »


Why would Christianity be any different? :?

Special pleading, that's why.

Yet for ever Chistian claiming special pleading there are even more non-christian theists who claim a 'special pleading' for their own religion. It doesn't work.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Did a man named Jesus rise from the dead?
« Reply #1951 on: December 25, 2013, 01:44:29 PM »


Why would Christianity be any different? :?

Special pleading, that's why.

Yet for ever Chistian claiming special pleading there are even more non-christian theists who claim a 'special pleading' for their own religion. It doesn't work.

"But they aren't Christian so they aren't right." No it doesn't have to make sense, or be logical, or consistent. It just has to leave them secure in their worldview.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline God is good

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Re: Did a man named Jesus rise from the dead?
« Reply #1952 on: August 01, 2014, 02:50:39 AM »
Can you prove the Resurrection of Jesus Christ actually occurred? It seems to me that if a man came back from the dead that there would be more than one book about it.  I mean, seriously, he came back from the dead and the only book about it is the Bible? 


I think it can be demonstrated beyond any reasonable doubt that the Resurrection of Christ actually occured in history.  And I think William Lane Craig shows this to be true in his numerous debates with highly intelligent atheists and non-believers.

Jesus was like a celebrity back then. The higher ups hated him because he was claiming to be God. But the thing is, Jesus said that he was going to come back to life. And if Jesus didn't do what he said he was going to do, his body would have been shown to all of the people. Then he would be known as Jesus, the liar. But was that ever said? Nope. Furthermore, there are tons and tons of witnesses to his coming back. The people saw the holes on his hands and feet and saw him alive and well, (as I said before, he was like a celebrity back then), and so it was a huge deal.

And not just the people but also Jesus's apostles saw him and that's why they started to go out and witness to people like crazy after Jesus went to heaven. They too were shocked even though Jesus told them that was going to happen.


Offline Timo

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Re: Did a man named Jesus rise from the dead?
« Reply #1953 on: August 01, 2014, 06:41:30 AM »
If Jesus was so widely known and so problematic for the local government, then why did they allow him to have an honorable burial in the first place?  Why not let him rot on the cross to serve as a warning to others, which was standard practice?
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Offline kcrady

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Re: Did a man named Jesus rise from the dead?
« Reply #1954 on: August 01, 2014, 08:02:18 AM »
Jesus may never have come back, but this thread has apparently emerged from the grave...

Jesus was like a celebrity back then. The higher ups hated him because he was claiming to be God.

If Jesus was so famous, why wasn't he...you know...famous?  How is it that only a small group of his own followers ever bothered to write about him, decades after the time he was supposed to have lived?  How is it that no contemporary historian or commentator on religious issues (e.g. Philo of Alexandria) seemed to have noticed such a "famous" and putatively remarkable person?

But the thing is, Jesus said that he was going to come back to life. And if Jesus didn't do what he said he was going to do, his body would have been shown to all of the people.

There is no evidence that claims of Jesus' resurrection received any degree of wide currency until decades after his (alleged) death.  The Jewish Revolt (66-70 A.D.) and its aftermath would have put the kabosh on any attempts to "produce Jesus' body" or locate "eyewitnesses" and validate their stories. 

Then he would be known as Jesus, the liar. But was that ever said? Nope.

Citation needed.  We have no records of any attempts to debunk Christianity prior to Celsus in the Third Century, and his writings only survive in quoted passages in Contra Celsum, a Christian rebuttal written by Origen in 248.  Whatever critiques of Christianity or other non-Christian responses to it that may have existed prior to Celsus have been completely lost to history. 


Furthermore, there are tons and tons of witnesses to his coming back.

"Tons and tons?"  Really?  By all means, please name some, and demonstrate the provenance of their writings, i.e., that they are independent, contemporary sources.


The people saw the holes on his hands and feet and saw him alive and well, (as I said before, he was like a celebrity back then), and so it was a huge deal.

Then why did nobody, except the tiny sect of Christians, seem to notice?  Where are the Roman and Jewish writings about this "huge deal" that took place?

Since you're picking up the torch where the long-lost Fran left off (and this thread has been dead since December of 2013), would you be willing to engage me in a formal debate on this subject?
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