Did a man named Jesus rise from the dead?

[HAL]

Whats your point? I didn't make the claim. So you have no victory over me. 

Yes, you made a claim -

Well even if for a fact a man name Jesus came back from the dead you couldn't prove it.

Newsflash - that's a claim. Some theists come here and believe they can prove Jesus rose from the dead. You made the claim (see above) that it can't be proven.

Thanks for the claim and the admission.

[SwayzesGhost]

Whats your point? I didn't make the claim. So you have no victory over me. 

Yes, you made a claim -

Well even if for a fact a man name Jesus came back from the dead you couldn't prove it.

Newsflash - that's a claim. Some theists come here and believe they can prove Jesus rose from the dead. You made the claim (see above) that it can't be proven.

Thanks for the claim and the admission.

I meant I didn't make the claim as in the OP. I thought you were trying to assert that I was making that claim. I see you're just taking score.

[HAL]

I meant I didn't make the claim as in the OP. I thought you were trying to assert that I was making that claim.

Well even if for a fact a man name Jesus came back from the dead you couldn't prove it.

^^^ that's a claim, that you typed, a claim that it can't be proven that Jesus rose from the dead (was resurrected).

Did you type it, or did someone else in the room with you type it?

[Ambassador Pony]

HAL, I think he has agreed that what he wrote is, in fact, a claim and clarified he thought you were attributing another claim made by someone else to him.

[HAL]

HAL, I think he has agreed that what he wrote is, in fact, a claim and clarified he thought you were attributing another claim made by someone else to him.

Well I don't know if he realizes it or not yet, we'll have to see what he says next.

[SwayzesGhost]

HAL, I think he has agreed that what he wrote is, in fact, a claim and clarified he thought you were attributing another claim made by someone else to him.

Well I don't know if he realizes it or not yet, we'll have to see what he says next.

 I told you in the previous post. So how can I  realize it now if I already did? 

[HAL]

I told you in the previous post. So how can I  realize it now if I already did?

You are not a clear communicator.

Here's what you said earlier -

Well even if for a fact a man name Jesus came back from the dead you couldn't prove it.  So its kind of pointless to argue.

then -

I meant I didn't make the claim as in the OP. I thought you were trying to assert that I was making that claim. I see you're just taking score.

What? How could you come away thinking I was trying to assert that you were making the claim in the OP?
That claim you made was for yourself - that a man named Jesus cannot be proven to have been resurrected. That's not what the OP says - it's a claim that it can be demonstrated beyond a reasonable doubt. So I have no idea what you are trying to communicate. You sound like you're getting mixed-up.

[Willie]

But if it were not for the 16 other saviours with the same MO this might hold water.

Most of these copy cat saviors is parroted nonsense.

It might help the discussion here if you could clarify what you meant in the post above. Did you mean that these other saviors that are similar to Jesus are derivatives of Jesus, a.k.a. copy-cats and "parroted nonsense", or that the claims about Jesus being a derivative of earlier religious characters are parroted nonsense (presumably meaning the claims are oft-repeated without being checked)?

On first reading, I took it to be the former, and I suspect others did too. But I'm now starting to suspect that you meant the latter, and that this misunderstanding is the source of most of the contention in the latter posts of this thread.

[Graybeard]

But if it were not for the 16 other saviours with the same MO this might hold water.

Most of these copy cat saviors is parroted nonsense.

May I recommend a free download and reading of, http://www.gutenberg.org/files/38600/38600-h/38600-h.htm  "THE WORLD'S SIXTEEN CRUCIFIED SAVIORS" OR, "CHRISTIANITY BEFORE CHRIST" by Kersey Graves^Wiki (November 21, 1813 – September 4, 1883) published 1875.
Alternatively you can buy it from Amazon for $39.99 - its reviews are very favourable. The blurb says

Khrisna of India. Thammuz of Syria. Esus of the Celtic Druids. Mithra of Persia. Quexalcoati of Mexico. All were crucified gods, and all met their fates hundreds of years before Jesus appeared on the scene. In this foundational work of modern atheism, American spiritualist KERSEY GRAVES (1813-1883) breaks the Christ myth down into its component parts and ably demonstrates how the story of Jesus has its roots in the depths of antiquity. Here you'll read about the surprising prevalence throughout global folklore of: . the miraculous and immaculate conception of the gods . stars that point out the time and place of a savior's birth . angels, shepherds, and magi visiting an infant savior . the 25th of December as the universal birth date of gods . saviors who descend into Hell . and much more. This is essential reading for students of comparative mythology and modern freethinkers.

...twenty Messiahs, Saviors, and Sons of God, according to history or tradition, have, in past times, descended from heaven, and taken upon themselves the form of men, clothing themselves with human flesh, and furnishing incontestable evidence of a divine origin, by various miracles, marvelous works, and superlative virtues; and finally these twenty Jesus Christs (accepting their character for the name) laid the foundation for the salvation of the world, and ascended back to heaven.

1. Chrishna of Hindostan.
2. Budha Sakia of India.
3. Salivahana of Bermuda.
4. Zulis, or Zhule, also Osiris and Orus, of Egypt.
5. Odin of the Scandinavians.
6. Crite of Chaldea.
7. Zoroaster and Mithra of Persia.
8. Baal and Taut, "the only Begotten of God," of Phenicia.
9. Indra of Thibet.
10. Bali of Afghanistan.
11. Jao of Nepaul.
12. Wittoba of the Bilingonese.
13. Thammuz of Syria.
14. Atys of Phrygia.
15. Xamolxis of Thrace.
16. Zoar of the Bonzes.
17. Adad of Assyria.
18. Deva Tat, and Sammonocadam of Siam.
19. Alcides of Thebes.
20. Mikado of the Sintoos.
21. Beddru of Japan.
22 Hesus or Eros, and Bremrillah, of the Druids.
23. Thor, son of Odin, of the Gauls.
24. Cadmus of Greece.
25. Hil and Feta of the Mandaites.
26. Gentaut and Quexalcote of Mexico.
27. Universal Monarch of the Sibyls.
28. Ischy of the Island of Formosa.
29. Divine Teacher of Plato.
30. Holy One of Xaca.
31. Fohi and Tien of China.
32. Adonis, son of the virgin Io of Greece.
33. Ixion and Quirinus of Rome.
34. Prometheus of Caucasus.
35. Mohamud, or Mahomet, of Arabia.

These have all received divine honors, have nearly all been worshiped as Gods, or sons of God; were mostly incarnated as Christs, Saviors, Messiahs, or Mediators; not a few of them were reputedly born of virgins; some of them filling a character almost identical with that ascribed by the Christian's bible to Jesus Christ; many of them, like him, are reported to have been crucified; and all of them, taken together, furnish a prototype and parallel for nearly every important incident and wonder-inciting miracle, doctrine and precept recorded in the New Testament, of the Christian's Savior. Surely, with so many Saviors the world cannot, or should not, be lost.

[Emily]

Graybeard, thanks for the link to the book. However SwayzesGhost probably will dismiss your post. For example, here's a post to me when I posted a link of 10 god-men:

Emily, here's a great site that covers all the copy-cats. That cites real sources and not unfounded claims,


http://www.tektonics.org/copycathub.html

[Graybeard]

Indeed he may. Confirmation bias is a powerful master. Yet the book has enough research within it and, should he wish to double check, there is always the internet.

[HAL]

Well SwayzesGhost was the one who started this up again. Let's see if he/she has the ability to stick with it and offer up any evidence - not proof - that a man named Jesus rose from the dead. Or perhaps now that the sleeping dog is no longer lies, a guest will register after seeing this and provide evidence.

The original theist - Fran - who lasted for 64 pages, finally got "discovered" and is now long gone. He never would offer up his own opinions - he always went back to his "handlers" and got the answers they would write here, never writing his own thoughts. If someone asked him a question he couldn't answer he never would say "I don't know - good point" He would just disappear until he found something acceptable in the writings of others - or just avoid the point if he found no answer.

[Ambassador Pony]

He also couldn't evidence his conclusion sufficiently to counter the more weighty alien hypothesis.

[MadBunny]

He also couldn't evidence his conclusion sufficiently to counter the more weighty alien hypothesis.

Or for that matter why the bible should be taken more seriously than a Superman Comic. (Original credit for the idea to KCrady)

[Star Stuff]

For what it's worth:

http://www.bandoli.no/

[SwayzesGhost]

Indeed he may. Confirmation bias is a powerful master. Yet the book has enough research within it and, should he wish to double check, there is always the internet.

But if it were not for the 16 other saviours with the same MO this might hold water.

Most of these copy cat saviors is parroted nonsense.

May I recommend a free download and reading of, http://www.gutenberg.org/files/38600/38600-h/38600-h.htm  "THE WORLD'S SIXTEEN CRUCIFIED SAVIORS" OR, "CHRISTIANITY BEFORE CHRIST" by Kersey Graves^Wiki (November 21, 1813 – September 4, 1883) published 1875.
Alternatively you can buy it from Amazon for $39.99 - its reviews are very favourable. The blurb says

Khrisna of India. Thammuz of Syria. Esus of the Celtic Druids. Mithra of Persia. Quexalcoati of Mexico. All were crucified gods, and all met their fates hundreds of years before Jesus appeared on the scene. In this foundational work of modern atheism, American spiritualist KERSEY GRAVES (1813-1883) breaks the Christ myth down into its component parts and ably demonstrates how the story of Jesus has its roots in the depths of antiquity. Here you'll read about the surprising prevalence throughout global folklore of: . the miraculous and immaculate conception of the gods . stars that point out the time and place of a savior's birth . angels, shepherds, and magi visiting an infant savior . the 25th of December as the universal birth date of gods . saviors who descend into Hell . and much more. This is essential reading for students of comparative mythology and modern freethinkers.

...twenty Messiahs, Saviors, and Sons of God, according to history or tradition, have, in past times, descended from heaven, and taken upon themselves the form of men, clothing themselves with human flesh, and furnishing incontestable evidence of a divine origin, by various miracles, marvelous works, and superlative virtues; and finally these twenty Jesus Christs (accepting their character for the name) laid the foundation for the salvation of the world, and ascended back to heaven.

1. Chrishna of Hindostan.
2. Budha Sakia of India.
3. Salivahana of Bermuda.
4. Zulis, or Zhule, also Osiris and Orus, of Egypt.
5. Odin of the Scandinavians.
6. Crite of Chaldea.
7. Zoroaster and Mithra of Persia.
8. Baal and Taut, "the only Begotten of God," of Phenicia.
9. Indra of Thibet.
10. Bali of Afghanistan.
11. Jao of Nepaul.
12. Wittoba of the Bilingonese.
13. Thammuz of Syria.
14. Atys of Phrygia.
15. Xamolxis of Thrace.
16. Zoar of the Bonzes.
17. Adad of Assyria.
18. Deva Tat, and Sammonocadam of Siam.
19. Alcides of Thebes.
20. Mikado of the Sintoos.
21. Beddru of Japan.
22 Hesus or Eros, and Bremrillah, of the Druids.
23. Thor, son of Odin, of the Gauls.
24. Cadmus of Greece.
25. Hil and Feta of the Mandaites.
26. Gentaut and Quexalcote of Mexico.
27. Universal Monarch of the Sibyls.
28. Ischy of the Island of Formosa.
29. Divine Teacher of Plato.
30. Holy One of Xaca.
31. Fohi and Tien of China.
32. Adonis, son of the virgin Io of Greece.
33. Ixion and Quirinus of Rome.
34. Prometheus of Caucasus.
35. Mohamud, or Mahomet, of Arabia.

These have all received divine honors, have nearly all been worshiped as Gods, or sons of God; were mostly incarnated as Christs, Saviors, Messiahs, or Mediators; not a few of them were reputedly born of virgins; some of them filling a character almost identical with that ascribed by the Christian's bible to Jesus Christ; many of them, like him, are reported to have been crucified; and all of them, taken together, furnish a prototype and parallel for nearly every important incident and wonder-inciting miracle, doctrine and precept recorded in the New Testament, of the Christian's Savior. Surely, with so many Saviors the world cannot, or should not, be lost.

Graves' scholarship was quickly criticized by Reverend John Taylor Perry of Cincinnati.[4] Perry contended that all sources Graves used were Freethought texts, which in turn had synthesised random, misunderstood and half-digested pieces of mis-information. Graves constructed from this a theory that religion was concocted by priests and made up of superstition and myth. This belief was consistent with the movement in Royal Arch Freemasonry then to revive Gnosticism as a challenge to church teaching.

Graves made leaps of logic similar to those of Alexander Hislop. Graves's central thesis that Christendom is a mere retelling of Pagan myths, mirrors the opposite claim of Alexander Hislop, author of The Two Babylons, that Catholicism, a mixture of Pagan myths with Christian belief, is a Satanic counterfeit of the true Christianity found in Protestantism.

He often failed to cite proper sources for verification; although, "many of the most important facts collated in this work were derived from Sir Godfrey Higgins' Anacalypsis"[5]

Historian Richard Carrier, a proponent of the Jesus myth hypothesis, has heavily criticized Graves' work, particularly his book The World's Sixteen Crucified Saviors, as being unreliable and unscholarly.[6]

Brian Flemming, director of Christ myth theory documentary The God Who Wasn't There, has cautioned against using Graves as a source due to his lack of scholarship and unreliability of his claims.[7]
Present-day readers

Graves' writings today are read mainly by people involved in the Jesus myth hypothesis, although many scholars in that field have denounced Graves as unfactual and unreliable (see criticism section). He is discussed in The Christ Conspiracy and Suns of God by Acharya S.[8] His writings even make a brief showing in The Da Vinci Code.[citation needed]

Tom Harpur has used Graves as a source for his books on Jesus Christ in comparative mythology. Atheist activist Madalyn Murray O'Hair was also an admirer of Graves' work.[9]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kersey_Graves

Well so much for' confirmation bias'.The book is total BS and I wouldn't spend 40 dollars on unreliable information. As I said previously, parroted nonsense.. Not even Flemming or Richard seem to be supporting it. 

[SwayzesGhost]

Graybeard, thanks for the link to the book. However SwayzesGhost probably will dismiss your post. For example, here's a post to me when I posted a link of 10 god-men:

Emily, here's a great site that covers all the copy-cats. That cites real sources and not unfounded claims,


http://www.tektonics.org/copycathub.html

Yep a much more reliable source. Which of course you won't read cause it conflicts with your worldview.

[SwayzesGhost]

Well SwayzesGhost was the one who started this up again. Let's see if he/she has the ability to stick with it and offer up any evidence - not proof - that a man named Jesus rose from the dead. Or perhaps now that the sleeping dog is no longer lies, a guest will register after seeing this and provide evidence.

The original theist - Fran - who lasted for 64 pages, finally got "discovered" and is now long gone. He never would offer up his own opinions - he always went back to his "handlers" and got the answers they would write here, never writing his own thoughts. If someone asked him a question he couldn't answer he never would say "I don't know - good point" He would just disappear until he found something acceptable in the writings of others - or just avoid the point if he found no answer.

See. You did it right there. Why Should I provide evidence that Jesus rose from the dead?

[Azdgari]

^^ You're the one who posted in this thread...

[SwayzesGhost]

^^ You're the one who posted in this thread...

Then provide proof of Jesus's resurrection . Since  you posted here.

[Azdgari]

I'm on the opposite side of the fence, SG.  I'll assess such evidence whenever a believer sees fit to provide it.

[SwayzesGhost]

I didn't make any claim. So I don't see how it falls on me? Are some of you that hard up?

[Azdgari]

My first post to you was basically to try to get at the following question:
Why are you in this thread so much if you don't want to talk about the evidence (or lack thereof) of a guy named Jesus rising from the dead?

My own post was to point that out.  Your posts necessarily have a different motivation behind them.  Which is...?

[SwayzesGhost]

My first post to you was basically to try to get at the following question:
Why are you in this thread so much if you don't want to talk about the evidence (or lack thereof) of a guy named Jesus rising from the dead?

My own post was to point that out.  Your posts necessarily have a different motivation behind them.  Which is...?

I thinks it pretty obvious. Since I was responding to a specific claim.

[HAL]

I thinks it pretty obvious. Since I was responding to a specific claim.

Do you believe Jesus rose from the dead (was resurrected)?

Yes or No.

[pianodwarf]

Why Should I provide evidence that Jesus rose from the dead?

If you're interested in convincing other people that it's true, there's you answer right there.  If not, I suppose there's no reason at all.

[SwayzesGhost]

Why Should I provide evidence that Jesus rose from the dead?

If you're interested in convincing other people that it's true, there's you answer right there.  If not, I suppose there's no reason at all.

Yet somehow, Hal thinks its appropriate to push a viewpoint on me and defend it. Quite dishonest.

[none]

Why Should I provide evidence that Jesus rose from the dead?

If you're interested in convincing other people that it's true, there's you answer right there.  If not, I suppose there's no reason at all.

Yet somehow, Hal thinks its appropriate to push a viewpoint on me and defend it. Quite dishonest.

this makes for a good laugh.
the only resurrection that occurred is you posting in this thread...
it will soon die again...

[lotanddaughters]

Yet somehow, Hal thinks its appropriate to push a viewpoint on me and defend it. Quite dishonest.

His question doesn't have that "pushing" effect on me.

Do you believe Jesus rose from the dead (was resurrected)?

Yes or No.

I say, "No".