Did a man named Jesus rise from the dead?

[AndyS]

BM

[Pale Rider]

Can you prove the Resurrection of Jesus Christ actually occurred? It seems to me that if a man came back from the dead that there would be more than one book about it.  I mean, seriously, he came back from the dead and the only book about it is the Bible? 

I think it can be demonstrated beyond any reasonable doubt that the Resurrection of Christ actually occured in history.  And I think William Lane Craig shows this to be true in his numerous debates with highly intelligent atheists and non-believers.

Really? Christianities entire existence hangs on this the "resurrection" if it were proved false then Christianity would go down the tubes.  But if it were not for the 16 other saviours with the same MO this might hold water.

[monkeymind]

What makes you want to resurrect the dead?
And must we revisit the grave so soon?
Let the living live and the dead remain dead.
And let this thread like the rotting corpse of Jesus remain in the tomb!

[Jim]

What makes you want to resurrect the dead?
And must we revisit the grave so soon?
Let the living live and the dead remain dead.
And let this thread like the rotting corpse of Jesus remain in the tomb!

^ heh.  +1

[Inactive_1]

Final Note on this long thread:

Fran is now gone from the forum and won't be returning. He wanted his account deleted, but I denied the request, because I feel it is important to have the person that responded to all of our patient members to have his member name attached to all of his posts for the permanent record.

This is one of the longest continuing debates we have ever had on this forum, and it taxed many members who tried to drill down into Fran's facts (or perceived facts) and were never satisfied at his explanations. It is the highest ranked thread ever by both posts and views. At this time, I am of the mind that there is no convincing evidence that a man named Jesus rose from the dead. But, as with all our debates here, it is for each member to decide for him/her self in the end.

Thanks to all who contributed to this important debate.

If anyone has any final comments for the record, please post them now.

[monkeymind]

I just want to repeat myself.

What makes you want to resurrect the dead?
And must we revisit the grave so soon?
Let the living live and the dead remain dead.
And let this thread like the rotting corpse of Jesus remain in the tomb!

[velkyn]

Not suprising that Fran wanted to "annul" this discussion and pretend it never happened.  It is also not suprising that Fran's only source for his "facts", WLC or his minions, never showed up here to support Fran. I wonder how long until we get yet another Christian presenting this nonense again.

[Graybeard]

Final Note on this long thread:

[...]

If anyone has any final comments for the record, please post them now.

Before coming to a conclusion, I suggest waiting 3 days to see if anyone resurrects the thread.

[SwayzesGhost]

But if it were not for the 16 other saviours with the same MO this might hold water.

Most of these copy cat saviors is parroted nonsense.   

[Emily]

Welcome to the site.

But if it were not for the 16 other saviours with the same MO this might hold water.

Most of these copy cat saviors is parroted nonsense.

Much like Jesus being a copy cat saviour of Horus and others? Since Jesus is a copy-cat of god-men before him what makes his life any more special?

[SwayzesGhost]

Welcome to the site.

But if it were not for the 16 other saviours with the same MO this might hold water.

Most of these copy cat saviors is parroted nonsense.

Much like Jesus being a copy cat saviour of Horus and others? Since Jesus is a copy-cat of god-men before him what makes his life any more special?

How is  Jesus a copy-cat of Horus?

[Emily]

How is  Jesus a copy-cat of Horus?

Just a copy-pasta:

Born of a virgin, Isis. Only begotten son of the God Osiris. Birth heralded by the star Sirius, the morning star. Ancient Egyptians paraded a manger and child representing Horus through the streets at the time of the winter solstice (about DEC-21). In reality, he had no birth date; he was not a human. Death threat during infancy: Herut tried to have Horus murdered. Handling the threat: The God That tells Horus’ mother “Come, thou goddess Isis, hide thyself with thy child.” An angel tells Jesus’ father to: “Arise and take the young child and his mother and flee into Egypt.” Break in life history: No data between ages of 12 & 30. Age at baptism: 30. Subsequent fate of the baptiser: Beheaded. Walked on water, cast out demons, healed the sick, restored sight to the blind. Was crucifed, descended into Hell; resurrected after three days.

Other pre-jesus-like-god-men here: http://listverse.com/2009/04/13/10-christ-like-figures-who-pre-date-jesus/

[joebbowers]

Most of that isn't true, Emily. Don't copy and paste from those websites that only exist to compare Horus to Jesus, they lie a lot or stretch the truth. Research Horus directly on websites with no anti-Jesus bent. There are similarities, and I do believe some of Jesus' story is stolen from it, but it's not nearly as similar as you've been lead to believe.

Isis was not a virgin, for example. She used the severed penis of her dead Husband to impregnate herself, and she was not a virgin even before that as she'd been married for many years before her husband's death.

[One Above All]

Why are you focusing on Horus? Emily posted a link with ten different dudes. Even if Horus isn't one of them, that still leaves nine. And considering that there are probably thousands of religions, most of which pre-date christianity... Well, you get the point.

[SwayzesGhost]

How is  Jesus a copy-cat of Horus?

Just a copy-pasta:

Born of a virgin, Isis. Only begotten son of the God Osiris. Birth heralded by the star Sirius, the morning star. Ancient Egyptians paraded a manger and child representing Horus through the streets at the time of the winter solstice (about DEC-21). In reality, he had no birth date; he was not a human. Death threat during infancy: Herut tried to have Horus murdered. Handling the threat: The God That tells Horus’ mother “Come, thou goddess Isis, hide thyself with thy child.” An angel tells Jesus’ father to: “Arise and take the young child and his mother and flee into Egypt.” Break in life history: No data between ages of 12 & 30. Age at baptism: 30. Subsequent fate of the baptiser: Beheaded. Walked on water, cast out demons, healed the sick, restored sight to the blind. Was crucifed, descended into Hell; resurrected after three days.

Other pre-jesus-like-god-men here: http://listverse.com/2009/04/13/10-christ-like-figures-who-pre-date-jesus/

Horus was not born of a virgin.   A Egyptian relief shows  Isis in falcon form, over an erect phallus of a dead Osiris in the Underworld


In Encyclopedia of Religions  by miller.

"But after she [i.e., Isis] had brought it [i.e. Osiris' body] back to Egypt, Seth managed to get hold of Osiris's body again and cut it up into fourteen parts, which she scattered all over Egypt. Then Isis went out to search for Osiris a second time and buried each part where she found it (hence the many tombs of Osiris that exist in Egypt). The only part that she did not find was the god's penis, for Seth had thrown it into the river, where it had been eaten by a fish; Isis therefore fashioned a substitute penis to put in its place. She had also had sexual intercourse with Osisis after his death, which resulted in the conception and birth of his posthumous son, Harpocrates, Horus-the-child. Osiris became king of the netherworld, and Horus proceeded to fight with Seth..." [CANE:2:1702; emphasis mine] [BTW, the Hebrew word 'satan' is not a 'cognate' of the name 'seth' by any means: "The root *STN is not evidenced in any of the cognate languages in texts that are prior to or contemporary with its occurrences in the Hebrew Bible" DDD, s.v. 1369f]

Not a virgin.


Birthday is irrelevant.  Jesus wasn't even born in December


He did not walked on water. No such passage exists.


Break in life history is irrelevant as well. A lot of historical figures have had a similar fate.

He did not get baptized.

Use a reliable source that cites its claims. That certainly isn't one of them. Its simply parroted nonsense that he didn't bother to research.

[SwayzesGhost]

Why are you focusing on Horus? Emily posted a link with ten different dudes. Even if Horus isn't one of them, that still leaves nine. And considering that there are probably thousands of religions, most of which pre-date christianity... Well, you get the point.

Cause the  9 others are  just as dishonest.  Or is it easier to parrot non-cited nonsense instead of actual research?

[Emily]

Most of that isn't true, Emily. Don't copy and paste from those websites that only exist to compare Horus to Jesus, they lie a lot or stretch the truth. Research Horus directly on websites with no anti-Jesus bent. There are similarities, and I do believe some of Jesus' story is stolen from it, but it's not nearly as similar as you've been lead to believe.

Isis was not a virgin, for example. She used the severed penis of her dead Husband to impregnate herself, and she was not a virgin even before that as she'd been married for many years before her husband's death.

Can you post some links for me to research then to research Horus directly?

I was only using Horus because it was the first thing to come to my mind. Some believe that Krisna was also born of a virgin, according to the Bhagavata-purana. However, not reading that book and only relying on what I find on the internet, perhaps I am wrong about him being born in a similar manner that Jesus was. But if a religious text does describe the birth of a god-man similar to jesus, before jesus, then it's possible that jesus is a copy-cat.

And even if she had been married 'for years', how long was Joseph married to Mary.

[SwayzesGhost]

Most of that isn't true, Emily. Don't copy and paste from those websites that only exist to compare Horus to Jesus, they lie a lot or stretch the truth. Research Horus directly on websites with no anti-Jesus bent. There are similarities, and I do believe some of Jesus' story is stolen from it, but it's not nearly as similar as you've been lead to believe.

Isis was not a virgin, for example. She used the severed penis of her dead Husband to impregnate herself, and she was not a virgin even before that as she'd been married for many years before her husband's death.

Can you post some links for me to research then to research Horus directly?

I was only using Horus because it was the first thing to come to my mind. Some believe that Krisna was also born of a virgin, according to the Bhagavata-purana. However, not reading that book and only relying on what I find on the internet, perhaps I am wrong about him being born in a similar manner that Jesus was. But if a religious text does describe the birth of a god-man similar to jesus, before jesus, then it's possible that jesus is a copy-cat.

And even if she had been married 'for years', how long was Joseph married to Mary.

Emily, here's a great site that covers all the copy-cats. That cites real sources and not unfounded claims,


http://www.tektonics.org/copycathub.html

[One Above All]

Emily, here's a great site that covers all the copy-cats.

Do you know what "copycat" means? A copycat comes AFTER the original. Those religions pre-date (meaning they came BEFORE) christianity.

[SwayzesGhost]

Emily, here's a great site that covers all the copy-cats.

Do you know what "copycat" means? A copycat comes AFTER the original. Those religions pre-date (meaning they came BEFORE) christianity.

I'm referring to copy cat theories. But of course  go off on a tangent.

So before you start crying  more

"Emily, here's a great site that covers all the copy cat theories"

But I guess this is easier to respond to then the fact you accept parroted nonsense about copy cat saviors than doing actual research. 

[One Above All]

I'm referring to copy cat theories.

Next time you might want to write what you mean.

[SwayzesGhost]

I'm referring to copy cat theories.

Next time you might want to write what you mean.

It was pretty obvious in what was being discussed in the last 6-7 posts.   

[Emily]

http://www.tektonics.org/copycathub.html

Regarding that site, I find it might be biased, since it's banner is:



'Education and Aplogetic Ministry" Perhaps that site is just a reliable as Got Questions
I'm sleepy and going to bed, but when I wake up I will check into the citations listed on the site you provided.

[HAL]

SwayzesGhost,

You "resurrected" a thread that died over two years ago, which is considered necromancy and bad form. I was Admin at the time and the conclusion from the debate was that - no  - a man named Jesus did not rise from the dead.

If you have information that would convince us please bring it. After 64 pages of debate, I doubt you'll be able to add any convincing evidence but I'm all ears.

[SwayzesGhost]

SwayzesGhost,

You "resurrected" a thread that died over two years ago, which is considered necromancy and bad form. I was Admin at the time and the conclusion from the debate was that - no  - a man named Jesus did not rise from the dead.

If you have information that would convince us please bring it. After 64 pages of debate, I doubt you'll be able to add any convincing evidence but I'm all ears.

Well even if for a fact a man name Jesus came back from the dead you couldn't prove it.  So its kind of pointless to argue.

Also its bad form to have a 2 year inactive thread pinned

[HAL]

Well even if for a fact a man name Jesus came back from the dead you couldn't prove it.  So its kind of pointless to argue.

OK, good, you admit it can't be proven. That was easy.

Also its bad form to have a 2 year inactive thread pinned

Not if you want people to read the information Einstein.

[SwayzesGhost]

Not if you want people to read the information Einstein.

Then its reasonable and not bad form to assume people will respond in it.

[HAL]

Then its reasonable and not bad form to assume people will respond in it.

Nevertheless, you admitted it can't be proven that Jesus rose from the dead, which is a nice addition nonetheless.

Thanks for that.

Well even if for a fact a man name Jesus came back from the dead you couldn't prove it.  So its kind of pointless to argue.

[SwayzesGhost]

Then its reasonable and not bad form to assume people will respond in it.

Nevertheless, you admitted it can't be proven that Jesus rose from the dead, which is a nice addition nonetheless.

Thanks for that.

Well even if for a fact a man name Jesus came back from the dead you couldn't prove it.  So its kind of pointless to argue.

Whats your point? I didn't make the claim. So you have no victory over me.