Author Topic: Reproduction Morality - IVF and NFP  (Read 46867 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Agent40

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 618
  • Darwins +0/-0
Re: Reproduction Morality - IVF and NFP
« Reply #29 on: May 13, 2009, 01:51:42 PM »
Ahhh . . .  love it when people have to pull out the extreme examples to make their side at least discussable. We all know having to choose between the mother’s life and the baby is rare. But to answer your question, I would not make a choice. If the doctor had to kill the baby to save me, I would say do nothing. If the doctor had to kill me to save the baby, I would say do nothing. Most likely a doctor could try his best to save both of our lives without actively killing either of us. And perhaps one of us would still die, but it would be a consequence of an appropriate action and not from a decision to purposely kill one of us.

I know those who don’t have faith or a clear view of what is right and good (moral truth) would not be able to understand this. As I mentioned before if I were raped, got pregnant, had no $, was told the baby had a disability that even if born would only survive for a couple of days – It would still be wrong to have an abortion. Every life is of value. It’s our job to be a witness to that. It’s our job to uphold truth.

Sometimes I’m not sure how people who share your worldview get thru the day. I know I’m not the one ultimately in control – and that’s a good thing! I don’t want to be. Life is pretty exciting to see where it takes you, but you have to take the good with the bad. And what’s so bad anyway? There is nothing that is insurmountable. I mean really what would be the worst thing that could happen in life? Death? I’m not afraid of death. Worse than death is living with yourself if you don’t follow moral truths. Worse than death is living a life after making some wrong choices in the so-called name of “freedom.” Oh, choosing your false “rights” might give you more $ in the bank, might give you more “me” time, and might even appear to be the easier path. But it can’t bring peace.

Offline PinkMilk

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1780
  • Darwins +0/-0
  • Gender: Female
Re: Reproduction Morality - IVF and NFP
« Reply #30 on: May 13, 2009, 02:28:01 PM »
I pulled an extreme example because you have different viewpoints from my own and made it clear that you think it is wrong in all other examples I gave you.  What you are ultimately saying in your answer that rather than making a choice to live or for your baby to live would be that you both die.  That is just absolutely absurd, and I highly doubt that that would be the decision you would make if you were in that situation.  You did a wonderful job of not answering the question in order to preserve your own viewpoint. 

You are also making the argument that without faith there can not be morality, which simply isn't true.  I again invite you to do some research into evolutionary psychology and see how there are trends of morality in animals. 

As far as your statement about not being able to afford a baby and only allowing it to live a few days, you think it is better to neglect a child (which is illegal by the way) in order to prevent from having an abortion. 

Simply admit that that is your viewpoint and that simply because that is your viewpoint does not mean that it is moral or that contradicting viewpoints are immoral.  You say that you do not want to be the one who ultimately decides what is right and wrong, and yet you are on here arguing that you know what is right and wrong. 
I can see where your coming from but on the other hand i dont want my kid to learn about evolution or see homosexualisom talked about in a scince classs ethier. <-- From Youguysarepathetic

At least I have a mother. Have you? (serious question) <---From Skylark889

Offline nogodsforme

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 11187
  • Darwins +1865/-9
  • Gender: Female
  • Jehovah's Witness Protection Program
Re: Reproduction Morality - IVF and NFP
« Reply #31 on: May 13, 2009, 03:59:59 PM »
The OP seems to live in a fantasy world, where everything natural is good, where all marriages are happy, where all pregnancies work out for the best, where 11 year olds aren't raped by their stepfathers. Where the death of a baby born with very severe disabilities (no brain, for example) is just accepted as god's will, and does not destroy the marriage.  Where an abusive man never beats up his pregnant wife in order to induce a miscarriage because he doesn't want the baby.

In the real world, without birth control of some sort, most women would "naturally" have a baby about every year until they died in childbirth or reached menopause as exhausted, worn out wrecks. That is nature, for you. I know a number of women who have had scary illegal abortions. Women have drunk bleach, put drano inside themselves, thrown themselves down flights of stairs to try to abort the pregnancy they just can't carry.  Sometimes the women die.

This is not fantasy. Until about 50 years ago, this was reality everywhere. Women literally begged doctors to give them something so "me man don't have to sleep on the roof anymore". It  is still reality in way too many places. I have worked with too many women in the US and in third world countries to blithely wave away their desperate desire to limit births as misguided feminism, the preference for a silly life of carefree sinning or modern "convenience".

I have a young friend with two kids who developed a heart condition that would kill her if she became pregnant again. She lives in a very poor Latin American country and her young husband struggles to support them all. Much of the money he earns goes for expensive medicines to treat her condition. Birth control makes it possible for them all to survive together as a family. And yes, they are Catholic, probably more devout than anyone on this site.

There are many, many women in relationships that are not stable, or where poverty has forced the man to migrate far away for work, and the lady is a de facto single parent. The man shows up once or twice a year and leaves her alone with yet another pregnancy. I know women who have been pregnant 12-15 times, with 8-10 surviving children to raise. Miscarriages and infant mortality tragically reduce the total, but there are still far too many mouths to cook for and feed, too many bodies and clothes to wash with water hauled from miles away, shoes and school notebooks to buy. Another pregnancy means a few more teeth lost to malnutrition, and a few more years of drudgery added to an already difficult life.

Birth control does not mean nobody has any babies and all women become Paris Hilton. It means that the woman has a bit more control over her life. It means she can space her pregnancies so that at least one child is walking before she has another. It means she can have 5 or 6 children instead of 10 or 12. It means she can stop having babies when her body can't take it anymore, when she is having miscarriage after miscarriage, or has diabetes and no access to health care.  It means a man does not have to watch his wife die trying to have baby number 14, leaving him alone to raise them all.

Freedom to control fertility and plan a family is one of the most important freedoms human beings can have. I have dedicated much of my life to make sure women esp. never lose that freedom.

soapbox now closed  8)

When all of Cinderella's finery changed back at midnight, why didn't the shoes disappear? What's up with that?

Offline PinkMilk

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1780
  • Darwins +0/-0
  • Gender: Female
Re: Reproduction Morality - IVF and NFP
« Reply #32 on: May 13, 2009, 07:10:37 PM »
The OP seems to live in a fantasy world, where everything natural is good, where all marriages are happy, where all pregnancies work out for the best, where 11 year olds aren't raped by their stepfathers. Where the death of a baby born with very severe disabilities (no brain, for example) is just accepted as god's will, and does not destroy the marriage.  Where an abusive man never beats up his pregnant wife in order to induce a miscarriage because he doesn't want the baby.

In the real world, without birth control of some sort, most women would "naturally" have a baby about every year until they died in childbirth or reached menopause as exhausted, worn out wrecks. That is nature, for you. I know a number of women who have had scary illegal abortions. Women have drunk bleach, put drano inside themselves, thrown themselves down flights of stairs to try to abort the pregnancy they just can't carry.  Sometimes the women die.

This is not fantasy. Until about 50 years ago, this was reality everywhere. Women literally begged doctors to give them something so "me man don't have to sleep on the roof anymore". It  is still reality in way too many places. I have worked with too many women in the US and in third world countries to blithely wave away their desperate desire to limit births as misguided feminism, the preference for a silly life of carefree sinning or modern "convenience".

I have a young friend with two kids who developed a heart condition that would kill her if she became pregnant again. She lives in a very poor Latin American country and her young husband struggles to support them all. Much of the money he earns goes for expensive medicines to treat her condition. Birth control makes it possible for them all to survive together as a family. And yes, they are Catholic, probably more devout than anyone on this site.

There are many, many women in relationships that are not stable, or where poverty has forced the man to migrate far away for work, and the lady is a de facto single parent. The man shows up once or twice a year and leaves her alone with yet another pregnancy. I know women who have been pregnant 12-15 times, with 8-10 surviving children to raise. Miscarriages and infant mortality tragically reduce the total, but there are still far too many mouths to cook for and feed, too many bodies and clothes to wash with water hauled from miles away, shoes and school notebooks to buy. Another pregnancy means a few more teeth lost to malnutrition, and a few more years of drudgery added to an already difficult life.

Birth control does not mean nobody has any babies and all women become Paris Hilton. It means that the woman has a bit more control over her life. It means she can space her pregnancies so that at least one child is walking before she has another. It means she can have 5 or 6 children instead of 10 or 12. It means she can stop having babies when her body can't take it anymore, when she is having miscarriage after miscarriage, or has diabetes and no access to health care.  It means a man does not have to watch his wife die trying to have baby number 14, leaving him alone to raise them all.

Freedom to control fertility and plan a family is one of the most important freedoms human beings can have. I have dedicated much of my life to make sure women esp. never lose that freedom.

soapbox now closed  8)


I completely agree with you.  Unfortunately Agent40 thinks that these things are immoral under any circumstance.
I can see where your coming from but on the other hand i dont want my kid to learn about evolution or see homosexualisom talked about in a scince classs ethier. <-- From Youguysarepathetic

At least I have a mother. Have you? (serious question) <---From Skylark889

Offline sortasuperb

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 835
  • Darwins +0/-1
  • Gender: Male
  • Tomato-based Life Form
Re: Reproduction Morality - IVF and NFP
« Reply #33 on: May 13, 2009, 07:21:49 PM »
Excellent post, ngfm. You can climb back on your soapbox any time you want!  :)
I can't think for you. But if I have to I can think against you...

Offline Kemory

  • Freshman
  • *
  • Posts: 15
  • Darwins +0/-0
Re: Reproduction Morality - IVF and NFP
« Reply #34 on: May 13, 2009, 07:26:48 PM »
Wow...just...wow....

now MARRIED people can't enjoy sex w/o worrying about getting preggers?

What about masturbation? Are we going to go back to that being wrong again, too?

Reading your posts, Agent, my heart was breaking for you. You seem like a young mother and that is why it is easy for you to feel so strongly about the connection between sex and babies. I get that. But your views on sex are so depressing and naive. What are you going to do when you catch your children touching themselves? (and they WILL) Are you going to scold them and tell them it is against nature? If you say it isn't against nature, than masturbation is natural, which means sexual acts and orgasms aren't always meant for procreation. They are "nature's" way of releasing stress and tension.

When you are older, say when your children are almost adults, you will most likely feel differently about a lot of things. You may really not want any more children for various reasons. Your health might not be great, you may have serious financial problems, or you may be at that stage where you want to know who you are besides a wife and mother. Whatever the case, you will worry about getting pregnant at some point in your life.

And by the way I GOT PREGNANT while NURSING so don't you dare believe that myth for one second!

If sex was just for procreation, why do infertile (from birth) people get aroused? And should THEY not be allowed to have sex? There would be no need to, it would be strictly for enjoyment. Should old people not have sex because they are past their prime and can't possibly get pregnant? If they had sex, it would be for pure enjoyment.

Oh, and keep this in mind: did you know it is "not natural" for a man to mate with only one female? Are you going to allow your husband to exercise his natural urge to spread his seed? Your god approves of multiple wives (and servent girls to give additional outlets for the man who "naturally" has erections throughout the day).

Peace out,

Jo






Offline Agent40

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 618
  • Darwins +0/-0
Re: Reproduction Morality - IVF and NFP
« Reply #35 on: May 13, 2009, 09:54:44 PM »
Pink,
I never said without faith there can be no morality – on the contrary. I said all can determine right from wrong regardless of faith or religion. I do however find it telling that so many of you have such trouble doing so. 


I never said I don’t want to be the one to decide right and wrong. Right and wrong are already decided. It isn’t a decision to be made. I said I wouldn’t choose evil.

Who said anything about neglecting a baby? You don’t need $ to show love. People can usually get by on far less than they think. It might mean giving up your lattes, though.


Offline Agent40

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 618
  • Darwins +0/-0
Re: Reproduction Morality - IVF and NFP
« Reply #36 on: May 13, 2009, 09:59:01 PM »
Nogodsforme, I really enjoyed the violin concert you just gave – brought me to tears – really -- but I wept even more for the people like you who think they are actually helping the people in the difficult situations like you described. Here’s the reality . . .

What you and others like you propose is not treating the whole patient. You think merely treating the symptom is going to help. But when you do that, there are always side effects to the medications you give to treat a symptom and the patient just comes back with another different problem. Now you make the mistake of giving them yet another medication in order to treat the new symptom. It never helps the whole person. It never truly heals.

Also, not using contraception absolutely does not mean babies every year. I am walking proof. I have never used bc in my life (not even NFP) and none of my children are less than 2 yrs apart and some are 3. It is an extremely naïve and ignorant position to believe women would be pregnant every year without bc. And if they are, I guarantee you they are not breastfeeding. And quite honestly this is not very smart. First of all, breastfeeding is free – so no xtra mouth to feed. 2nd, breastfeeding is best for the baby and the mother. Breastfeeding babies are healthier – so less hospital visits. But the best part is breastfeeding naturally suppresses ovulation. I couldn’t get pregnant the first year after having a baby if I tried. I wish more women were educated in these matters. It’s all science – I thought you all loved your science?

Quote
I have a young friend with two kids who developed a heart condition that would kill her if she became pregnant again. She lives in a very poor Latin American country and her young husband struggles to support them all. Much of the money he earns goes for expensive medicines to treat her condition

Then he should be told NFP is 99% effective and it’s free!

Quote
Freedom to control fertility and plan a family is one of the most important freedoms human beings can have

It’s a false freedom

Quote
I have dedicated much of my life to make sure women esp. never lose that freedom

I’m sorry to hear that.

Offline Agent40

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 618
  • Darwins +0/-0
Re: Reproduction Morality - IVF and NFP
« Reply #37 on: May 13, 2009, 10:00:42 PM »
Kemory,

Wow! Yall are so jaded.

Hey, guess what? -- masturbation is immoral. Guess what else? I’ve heard every comment you made regarding infertile people not having sex since they can’t conceive and old people not having sex, blah, blah,. Problem is these arguments don’t hold up. You can never do anything on purpose to separate the unitive nature of the sexual act. Obviously, nature designed it so older people are most likely not going to conceive – that is an obvious observation of nature. As far as those with infertility problems well those are aberrations of nature and never the norm.

And for the last time people natural doesn’t always have to do with natural moral order. It’s natural to be sexually attracted to other people, of course that doesn’t mean promiscuity is moral.

If you got pregnant while nursing the likelihood that you were doing ecological breastfeeding is unlikely. Ecological breastfeeding means nursing is the baby’s main source of nutrition. It means you nurse on  demand. It also helps if they share your bed. Statistically, if you’re doing those things your cycles will not return until you stop doing those things.

Offline PinkMilk

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1780
  • Darwins +0/-0
  • Gender: Female
Re: Reproduction Morality - IVF and NFP
« Reply #38 on: May 13, 2009, 10:34:25 PM »
Pink,
I never said without faith there can be no morality – on the contrary. I said all can determine right from wrong regardless of faith or religion. I do however find it telling that so many of you have such trouble doing so. 
You're right, religion and faith are not needed to determine what is right and wrong.  However, everything that you have stated as moral or immoral is based solely on religious views.  I have no trouble telling what is right and wrong.  You simply disagree with my views.  Morals are not absolute like religion would have you believe.

Quote
I never said I don’t want to be the one to decide right and wrong. Right and wrong are already decided. It isn’t a decision to be made. I said I wouldn’t choose evil.
How can you say that right and wrong aren't decisions to be made?  Do you not decide your own actions?

[quoteWho said anything about neglecting a baby? You don’t need $ to show love. People can usually get by on far less than they think. It might mean giving up your lattes, though.
[/quote]

You said that it is better for a baby to be born and only live a few days.  As far as getting by on less than people think, I know this all too well.  I'm dirt poor and I survive.  I could not in any way support a child though.  I have made every sacrifice to my budget possible.
I can see where your coming from but on the other hand i dont want my kid to learn about evolution or see homosexualisom talked about in a scince classs ethier. <-- From Youguysarepathetic

At least I have a mother. Have you? (serious question) <---From Skylark889

Offline CosmicScherzo

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 411
  • Darwins +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • What would Jesus brew?
Re: Reproduction Morality - IVF and NFP
« Reply #39 on: May 14, 2009, 08:50:49 AM »
40, I don't think I'm the only one here who's sick of your fallacious claims that we don't believe in truth or right and wrong.  I believe in truth.  I know right from wrong.  And you're wrong.

Again, how is an action immoral if it harms no one?
"What claim has your piety on my deference?"

Offline Kemory

  • Freshman
  • *
  • Posts: 15
  • Darwins +0/-0
Re: Reproduction Morality - IVF and NFP
« Reply #40 on: May 14, 2009, 10:47:45 AM »
So, if masturbation is wrong...you're saying only your partner is allowed to touch your privates? You can't touch your own?

or is foreplay out too?

What about oral? Female orgasm?

None of those things are needed for conception, so are they 'evil'?

Where do you draw the line, 42? What is left after you cut out all the 'bad' parts of sex? I guess it would be easy to abstain if you knew it was going to be mechanical and boring anyway.

Saying birth control is wrong is one thing, but to deny yourself the most basic of human instinct (which harms NO ONE) is very very sad. But that is your choice for your life, not mine. If you had said certain sexual behaviors are wrong for YOU, I could respect that. But, this is what irks me so much about christians: that condenscending, know-it-all attitude about subjects you obviously have not researched or experienced. You don't listen to people, you don't respect other lifestyles (that harm no one), or accept differences, you think everyone is beneath you, lost and clueless.

Get over yourself. Please.

Peace out,

Jo






Offline velkyn

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 18407
  • Darwins +449/-26
  • Gender: Female
  • You're wearing the juice, aren't you?"
Re: Reproduction Morality - IVF and NFP
« Reply #41 on: May 14, 2009, 11:06:39 AM »
Kemory,

Wow! Yall are so jaded.

Hey, guess what? -- masturbation is immoral. Guess what else? I’ve heard every comment you made regarding infertile people not having sex since they can’t conceive and old people not having sex, blah, blah,. Problem is these arguments don’t hold up. You can never do anything on purpose to separate the unitive nature of the sexual act. Obviously, nature designed it so older people are most likely not going to conceive – that is an obvious observation of nature. As far as those with infertility problems well those are aberrations of nature and never the norm.

And for the last time people natural doesn’t always have to do with natural moral order. It’s natural to be sexually attracted to other people, of course that doesn’t mean promiscuity is moral.

If you got pregnant while nursing the likelihood that you were doing ecological breastfeeding is unlikely. Ecological breastfeeding means nursing is the baby’s main source of nutrition. It means you nurse on  demand. It also helps if they share your bed. Statistically, if you’re doing those things your cycles will not return until you stop doing those things.


Why is masturbation immoral? 

What is the "natural moral order"?  Let me guess, it's what God made 'written on everyone's hearts'?  Funny how that never is actually the case. 

If you keep breastfeeding beyond a certain point, 6 months on average, it is no longer a reasonable method of birth control: http://www.breastfeeding.com/reading_room/lam_page3.html.  Your information is wrong.  You also seem to be advocating that women be restricted to their homes for how long?  6 months?  A year?  More? 

"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

http://clubschadenfreude.wordpress.com/

Offline PinkMilk

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1780
  • Darwins +0/-0
  • Gender: Female
Re: Reproduction Morality - IVF and NFP
« Reply #42 on: May 14, 2009, 11:17:43 AM »
Kemory,

Wow! Yall are so jaded.
...Yes... we're the jaded ones.?.
Quote
Hey, guess what? -- masturbation is immoral.
Why is masturbation immoral?  Because the Bible says so?  You said you can make these claims separate of God and religion and yet everything you say goes hand in hand with it.  You keep spouting more religious morality at a group of people who deny your God exists.
Quote
Guess what else? I’ve heard every comment you made regarding infertile people not having sex since they can’t conceive and old people not having sex, blah, blah,. Problem is these arguments don’t hold up. You can never do anything on purpose to separate the unitive nature of the sexual act.

But you can, as we have clearly said, birth control, condoms, IVF, masturbation, homosexual sex, but you find these things immoral.  So don't say you can't do it when you can.  Simply disagreeing with it doesn't mean it can't be done.
Quote
Obviously, nature designed it so older people are most likely not going to conceive – that is an obvious observation of nature. As far as those with infertility problems well those are aberrations of nature and never the norm.
Wow, I'm sure that those "aberrations of nature" are so glad to hear you say that.  (I highly doubt that aberration is the word you wanted to use there).  Old people still have sex, by your definition that is immoral.  I may not want to see that ever, but it is definitely not immoral.  Obviously I'm not accusing you of saying it is immoral, I'm pointing out that you are saying quite the opposite since nature renders them infertile at a certain age.  However, sex no longer has that "unity" you love oh so much.  There for you have to accept that morality is not absolute.
Just admit that you are a fundie who wants everyone else to think the same way you do!!!! This song and dance is getting really old, and you only know one dance step.

« Last Edit: May 14, 2009, 08:44:23 PM by PinkMilk »
I can see where your coming from but on the other hand i dont want my kid to learn about evolution or see homosexualisom talked about in a scince classs ethier. <-- From Youguysarepathetic

At least I have a mother. Have you? (serious question) <---From Skylark889

Offline Agent40

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 618
  • Darwins +0/-0
Re: Reproduction Morality - IVF and NFP
« Reply #43 on: May 14, 2009, 02:16:02 PM »
Quote
You're right, religion and faith are not needed to determine what is right and wrong.  However, everything that you have stated as moral or immoral is based solely on religious views. .

Sorry Pink, I know you wish that were true, but you haven’t a clue about right and wrong. You don’t see it. I wish you did. You are deceiving yourself. Someday you will understand, but in the meantime you really are missing out on getting the most out of this life. Why are you settling? Don’t you think you deserve more? You could have and be so much more. It seems like you already have your life planned out. Is this what you wanted? Is it enough for you? Sounds like your living in a way that is not in your best interest – statistically this is a fact. Seems like a self-perpetuating cycle of immorality for generations to come, with no one ever being told the truth. No one ever being shown it doesn’t have to be like this. It can be so much better. You can have so much more. You have the power to change that cycle. It would be the most liberating thing you’ve ever done.

Quote
How can you say that right and wrong aren't decisions to be made?  Do you not decide your own actions?

Truth is what it is. I don’t get to decide what is truth. I have to decide if I’m going to DO that which is true (right) or DO that which is wrong (false). But I certainly don’t get to choose what is truth. 

Quote
I'm dirt poor and I survive.  I could not in any way support a child though.  I have made every sacrifice to my budget

You’ll never have enough to support a child. Do you have any idea the cost of college tuition these days? You can’t let economics determine when and if you have children. Life is too precious.


Offline Agent40

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 618
  • Darwins +0/-0
Re: Reproduction Morality - IVF and NFP
« Reply #44 on: May 14, 2009, 02:16:56 PM »
Quote
Again, how is an action immoral if it harms no one?


What action are you referring to that is immoral that doesn’t harm anyone?

Offline Agent40

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 618
  • Darwins +0/-0
Re: Reproduction Morality - IVF and NFP
« Reply #45 on: May 14, 2009, 02:18:25 PM »
Quote
So, if masturbation is wrong...you're saying only your partner is allowed to touch your privates? You can't touch your own?or is foreplay out too?What about oral? Female orgasm?None of those things are needed for conception, so are they 'evil'?Where do you draw the line, 42? What is left after you cut out all the 'bad' parts of sex? I guess it would be easy to abstain if you knew it was going to be mechanical and boring anyway.

Yes, masturbation is wrong. You are deceiving yourself. You are simulating sex and not having real sex. Also, what do people typically do before they masturbate? Often view p*rnography. P*rnography causes one to not see the whole person. To think of a person as an object. This mindset carries over into real future relationships. No good can come from masturbation. If you use p*rn you are supporting an evil industry that exploits women. You also are harming yourself. If you tell me masturbation is good for stress release and then can be considered healthy, I could give you a million other moral things you could do that are good stress releasers. Foreplay is not immoral if it is with your married spouse and leads to the completion of the sexual act. Oral sex is typically considered immoral if by oral sex you mean the sexual act is completed via oral stimulation. If you began oral sex and then shifted to completing the sexual act properly it would not be immoral. Although this is kind of risky if you or your spouse doesn’t have a lot of control. What else would you like to know? Again, it’s amazing how you guys can’t even figure out some of these basic things. Your world view has been so warped for so long, you simply are unable to determine right and wrong. As for boring sex,  I can’t even tell you how many people pull the “you must be so sexually repressed” card. I probably have more sex than all of you combined. And if you think the missionary position is the only thing out there, I assure you there are quite a few morally acceptable positions to choose from. Sex is amazing and wonderful. Masturbation, pre-marital sex, p*rnography . . . these things all cheapen it. And they can never be fulfilling.

Offline Agent40

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 618
  • Darwins +0/-0
Re: Reproduction Morality - IVF and NFP
« Reply #46 on: May 14, 2009, 02:19:44 PM »
Quote
If you keep breastfeeding beyond a certain point, 6 months on average, it is no longer a reasonable method of birth control: http://www.breastfeeding.com/reading_room/lam_page3.html.  Your information is wrong.  You also seem to be advocating that women be restricted to their homes for how long?  6 months?  A year?  More? 

I think you are the one misinformed. As long as the baby’s main nourishment is from breastfeeding, your fertility can be suppressed well beyond 6 months. Often 6 months is cited b/c this is when people begin to supplement with other food and drink, but isn’t necessary.And I have no idea why you think breastfeeding would confine a woman to her home. Quite the opposite. Have baby will travel. I don’t have to pack a bottle or food. All I need is me and the baby. It’s quite convenient and certainly doesn’t slow down most of the women I know.

Offline Agent40

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 618
  • Darwins +0/-0
Re: Reproduction Morality - IVF and NFP
« Reply #47 on: May 14, 2009, 02:20:49 PM »
Quote
(I highly doubt that aberration is the word you wanted to use there).  Old people still have sex, by your definition that is immoral. 

Aberration was referring to people with fertility problems. I already explained older people having sex is not immoral. They are completing the sexual act in exactly the way they should, it is simply that nature most likely will not allow them to conceive – but you never know.

Offline Gnu Ordure

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3833
  • Darwins +109/-9
  • Gender: Male
Re: Reproduction Morality - IVF and NFP
« Reply #48 on: May 14, 2009, 02:31:39 PM »
Agent40:
Quote
Hey, guess what? -- masturbation is immoral.




That's kind of ironic, seeing how you're such a wanker.

« Last Edit: May 15, 2009, 06:07:11 AM by Gnu Ordure »

Offline velkyn

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 18407
  • Darwins +449/-26
  • Gender: Female
  • You're wearing the juice, aren't you?"
Re: Reproduction Morality - IVF and NFP
« Reply #49 on: May 14, 2009, 02:53:43 PM »
Quote
If you keep breastfeeding beyond a certain point, 6 months on average, it is no longer a reasonable method of birth control: http://www.breastfeeding.com/reading_room/lam_page3.html.  Your information is wrong.  You also seem to be advocating that women be restricted to their homes for how long?  6 months?  A year?  More? 
I think you are the one misinformed. As long as the baby’s main nourishment is from breastfeeding, your fertility can be suppressed well beyond 6 months. Often 6 months is cited b/c this is when people begin to supplement with other food and drink, but isn’t necessary.And I have no idea why you think breastfeeding would confine a woman to her home. Quite the opposite. Have baby will travel. I don’t have to pack a bottle or food. All I need is me and the baby. It’s quite convenient and certainly doesn’t slow down most of the women I know.
please inform the website I cited if you are so sure that you are right.  And the WHO paper it cited.  Anything to support your claims?  Anything at all?  And do your children ever get to eat real food or are they just a convenient form of contraception? Oh, and just how many times can you whip out your boob to feed the child, you who think it's much more convenient to keep them in bed with you?  I suspect you don't hold a formal job.  Do you?  Would this make a difference to "have baby will travel"? 

oh, and you are a lovely example of the Christian that appeals to fear to try to get atheist to believe their nonsense. "Oooh aren't you missing something,dear?" No, sorry, I don't feel like I'm missing anything but a misogynistic religion that calls me a second class citizen.  I am not settling for such a crappy religion.  I have so much more than your narrow little view of your religion.   

And this nonsense
Quote
Yes, masturbation is wrong. You are deceiving yourself. You are simulating sex and not having real sex. Also, what do people typically do before they masturbate? Often view p*rnography. P*rnography causes one to not see the whole person. To think of a person as an object. This mindset carries over into real future relationships. No good can come from masturbation. If you use p*rn you are supporting an evil industry that exploits women. You also are harming yourself. If you tell me masturbation is good for stress release and then can be considered healthy, I could give you a million other moral things you could do that are good stress releasers. Foreplay is not immoral if it is with your married spouse and leads to the completion of the sexual act. Oral sex is typically considered immoral if by oral sex you mean the sexual act is completed via oral stimulation. If you began oral sex and then shifted to completing the sexual act properly it would not be immoral. Although this is kind of risky if you or your spouse doesn’t have a lot of control. What else would you like to know? Again, it’s amazing how you guys can’t even figure out some of these basic things. Your world view has been so warped for so long, you simply are unable to determine right and wrong. As for boring sex,  I can’t even tell you how many people pull the “you must be so sexually repressed” card. I probably have more sex than all of you combined. And if you think the missionary position is the only thing out there, I assure you there are quite a few morally acceptable positions to choose from. Sex is amazing and wonderful. Masturbation, pre-marital sex, p*rnography . . . these things all cheapen it. And they can never be fulfilling.


No, you are attempting to claim that your opinion is the truth.  And it isn't.  Not even remotely.  I'm not decieving myself, you are trying to deceive me by these claims.  You make baseless claims about p*rnography.  Now, some pron does exploit women, but a lot doesn't.   Sex is fun.  Sex is a way to be intimate. Oral sex, a well placed hand my own or another's, etc too. Yep, an orgasm is even better than way sometimes.  And what is completeing the sex act "properly"?  Only missionary style?  What about the other positions? "Doggy-style"?  Sitting up?  Oh, how do you tell which is more moral than the other?  Hilarious!  The Christian's Kama Sutra, you should write it! 

I had pre-marital sex and it was great and with the guy I have been with for the last 20 years (sex, then living together then marriage for the taxes).  It did nothing to cheapen the sex I had after I was married, sorry to disappoint you.  You are assuming your opinions are truth again and you are lying.    Sorry, but you haven't a clue about what you are talking about.  Maybe for *you* they aren't fulfilling but I find them quite fulfilling.  I'm not you, a fact I am quite thrilled about.   

I find your ignorance about sex sad.  You are not repressed, just ignorant.  Do you advocate waking up teen guys every 30 minutes so they daren't have a wet dream?  How "immoral" is that?  And you may have more sex but quantity isn't quality.  ;D   
"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

http://clubschadenfreude.wordpress.com/

Offline Gnu Ordure

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3833
  • Darwins +109/-9
  • Gender: Male
Re: Reproduction Morality - IVF and NFP
« Reply #50 on: May 14, 2009, 02:55:32 PM »
Quote
If you began oral sex and then shifted to completing the sexual act properly it would not be immoral. Although this is kind of risky if you or your spouse doesn’t have a lot of control.

Hey, this is soooo unfair. You mean in your world women can orgasm through oral sex but men can't ?

And every time a fundie guy gets a blow-job, he has to worry about the 'risk' of coming in her mouth, and therefore committing an 'immoral act' ?


Hee-hee.

No wonder fundie guys are so pissed off all the time - they know the joy of a anxiety-free mind-blowing blow-job is forever denied them.


Offline CosmicScherzo

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 411
  • Darwins +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • What would Jesus brew?
Re: Reproduction Morality - IVF and NFP
« Reply #51 on: May 14, 2009, 03:14:03 PM »
Quote
Again, how is an action immoral if it harms no one?


What action are you referring to that is immoral that doesn’t harm anyone?


Masturbation.  Oral to the finish line.  Non-marital sex.  Etc.

I've experienced all these things, and they've done nothing but make my life (and my partner's, where applicable) more enjoyable and fulfilling.  By what authority do you claim these are immoral?  How can you back up the validity of your views when so many others have experienced differently first-hand?  (pun intended)

Yet again you claim that your views are the absolute truth and your interpretation of reality is a priori, while neglecting to provide any real-life reason to take you seriously.  I've known people like you.  Their company is unpleasant.
"What claim has your piety on my deference?"

Offline Emily

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 5771
  • Darwins +64/-0
  • Gender: Female
Re: Reproduction Morality - IVF and NFP
« Reply #52 on: May 14, 2009, 03:24:58 PM »
I love sex... It's great, and it's enjoyable and it's a sign of love. I have it because I love my fiance. That's not being immoral.

I'm reminded of this video;
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x45EOzMJA5o&feature=channel_page[/youtube]

haha

Nowhere in the bible does it say that masturbation is immoral and wrong. The bible mentions sexual immorality, but that can be a number of things, like sleeping around, homosexuality (not that I find homosexuality bad, but the bible does), or having sex out of wedlock. What you are doing to giving immorality your own definition. But that's a common thing for Christians to do. Just one more thing for the bible to tell us that can be left in the air...
"Great moments are born from great opportunities." Herb Brooks

I edit a lot of my posts. The reason being it to add content or to correct grammar/wording. All edits to remove wording get a strike through through the wording.

Offline nogodsforme

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 11187
  • Darwins +1865/-9
  • Gender: Female
  • Jehovah's Witness Protection Program
Re: Reproduction Morality - IVF and NFP
« Reply #53 on: May 14, 2009, 03:25:41 PM »
Nogodsforme, I really enjoyed the violin concert you just gave

I am not sure why you called my [admittedly longwinded] rant a "violin concert".

Whatever. I still think you live in fantasy land.

Third world people, esp. in Catholic countries have been getting the NFP line for years now.  This is nothing new. The problem is, it does not work under real world conditions. The science is sound, and in theory, it can help space pregnancies.  But the assumption is that both partners are committed to the NFP program.  The men in third world countries are not much into any kind of family planning. It is all on the women, in most cases. The men are definitely not into NFP. If one or both are migrant workers who are only together for a few days at a time, telling them to use NFP is ridiculous.

There are women who have to hide the birth control pills under the floorboards of the house because the man wants her to be constantly pregnant. There are men who think that women will be unfaithful if they use birth control. There are women who have relationships with (and children with) several men. There are men who have relationships with (and children with) several women. Some women don't dare tell the man he can't have sex with her a particular night. He may beat her up, force her to have sex anyway, or just go elsewhere for sex, and possibly bring her home a disease.  

You may not want to think about these situations. It is much easier to write off the people as immoral and bound for hell.  I think that people and their kids deserve the best life they can have, even if I don't personally approve of their behavior.

I have heard priests lie to women, telling them that if they use artifical birth control they will get cancer, become sterile, become promiscuous, go to hell. The women leave the church and go straight to the clinic for their birth control. (As I recall, hardly any men ever went to the church family planning classes, or even showed up for Mass. I figure they were not about to have some celibate man lecture them about sex!  :D)

I have worked with doctors who performed tubal ligations (usually after the woman has had one more baby than she really wanted), even though it is not sanctioned by the church. The same doctors performed abortions, even though it was actually illegal at that time. I asked some of them how they reconciled their actions with their religion. The response was that they were committed to helping women here on earth, and that god would have to judge them in heaven. I have huge respect for them, risking their careers and even eternal damnation to do what they think is right.

I agree that nursing is by far best for babies and moms. I advocated that bigtime when I did development work. (I nursed mine until she was nearly two!) However, there is the reality that many women around the world have to work away from their children for long periods of time. They can't nurse their kids no matter how much sense it makes. If you are sewing in a sweatshop, it's a bit inconvenient to take a break and run home to breastfeed. A lot of the moms only see their kids a few times a year because grandma is caring for them back in the village.

As for people being able to afford more kids, the rural folks I worked with ate twice a day when they were waiting for the harvest. Breakfast was coffee with a lot of sugar and a piece of bread that had been covered with roaches all night. Lunch was rice and boiled pumpkin. Sometimes just the squash when there was no money for the rice. For dinner we all enjoyed rich helpings of conversation. If someone got sick or died, they borrowed from the local loan shark. If they miss payments, bad things happen. You want to tell these people that they should cut back so they can fit a few more kids into the budget?

And, oh yes, people worldwide are already sleeping with their babies. When there are seven kids, two adults and three beds, nobody is sleeping alone!

This has been my experience in other countries. In my years as a social worker in US housing projects I worked with people who, while materially somewhat better off, had the same kind of chaos and disruption in their lives produced by poverty everywhere. Most poor people can't control much that happens to them, but they should at least be able to control their reproduction when they want to.

soapbox closed again  8)
When all of Cinderella's finery changed back at midnight, why didn't the shoes disappear? What's up with that?

Offline Gnu Ordure

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3833
  • Darwins +109/-9
  • Gender: Male
Re: Reproduction Morality - IVF and NFP
« Reply #54 on: May 14, 2009, 03:27:32 PM »
Quote
If you began oral sex and then shifted to completing the sexual act properly it would not be immoral. Although this is kind of risky if you or your spouse doesn’t have a lot of control.


I just realized that this doesn't make sense on another level.

It seems to imply that oral ejaculation means the completion of the sex act. Why should it ?

Agent40, I have documentary evidence of sperm travelling from penis to vagina via the mouth. I imagine I am unable to post this evidence on this Forum, but I assure you it does exist. Sperm goes into the mouth, from where it is transferred back over the penis, and thence to the vagina. Or by hand straight from the mouth to the vagina.

Either way, conception is possible. Some sperm get lost in the transfer, but there's millions of them, so it doesn't really matter.

So that's not immoral. Or is it ? You tell me.


So your husband doesn't need control, Agent40 - you do...

... you mustn't swallow, OK ?

Try it. You might like it.

I bet your husband will.

Gnu.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2009, 03:38:39 PM by Gnu Ordure »

Offline PinkMilk

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1780
  • Darwins +0/-0
  • Gender: Female
Re: Reproduction Morality - IVF and NFP
« Reply #55 on: May 14, 2009, 03:41:29 PM »

Sorry Pink, I know you wish that were true, but you haven’t a clue about right and wrong. You don’t see it. I wish you did. You are deceiving yourself. Someday you will understand, but in the meantime you really are missing out on getting the most out of this life. Why are you settling? Don’t you think you deserve more? You could have and be so much more. It seems like you already have your life planned out. Is this what you wanted? Is it enough for you?

Actually my life is going exactly how I want.  I am finishing school to get my Ph.D. I have a great house, a dog, a wonderful boyfriend.  So yes this is what I wanted.  Do I have my life planned out? To an extent, I know that there are things that I want to accomplish with my life and I am well on the way to doing so.  Who are you to question my quality of life or my choices? And don't tell me that I have no idea of what is right and wrong simply because my views vary from your own and aren't in the Bible.

Quote
Sounds like your living in a way that is not in your best interest – statistically this is a fact.

How do you know what is in my best interest?  What is statistically a fact?

Quote
Seems like a self-perpetuating cycle of immorality for generations to come, with no one ever being told the truth. No one ever being shown it doesn’t have to be like this. It can be so much better. You can have so much more. You have the power to change that cycle. It would be the most liberating thing you’ve ever done.

Again, I ask you who are you to question what it is that I do with my life.  Further more you are speculating on something with which you have no idea. My parents are Catholic and follow the same line of thinking you do.  They freaked out on me when I became an egg donor.  So don't tell me that I have never heard your position or act as if it is the first time I'm hearing your arguments.  It is your opinion that what you say is true and the only possibility.  Is there anything wrong with someone choosing not to have an abortion? Or having a baby via IVF? No.  But there is also nothing wrong with them deciding to do those things either.  You live in a fantasy world where everything goes according to your book and you don't have to face reality.

Quote
Truth is what it is. I don’t get to decide what is truth. I have to decide if I’m going to DO that which is true (right) or DO that which is wrong (false). But I certainly don’t get to choose what is truth. 

Truth is completely different from right and wrong.  Truth can be anything, it can be something as simple as saying the sky is blue (true).  Truth is what it is, and it is supported by facts and intense scientific inquiry, research, and studies.  Show me this information about your viewpoints and I will completely succeed the point to you.  Until then do not claim that you know the truth.

Quote
You’ll never have enough to support a child. Do you have any idea the cost of college tuition these days? You can’t let economics determine when and if you have children. Life is too precious.

While I may never be able to pay for my child's college tuition in full, there certainly will be a time when I can support a child.  I'm still in classes right now, and so I know how expensive schooling is as I pay for it myself.  So there is no way I would bring a child into this world while I know I can't pay for diapers and food.  I never said anything about not having children, I will one day, I said this before.  I will allow for my financial situation to determine if I will have a child though as I refuse to provide a substandard of living for any child I bring into this world.  I will be having a child once I can afford to support a child and once I can afford to go through IVF as I mentioned before.  My boyfriend is an agent Orange baby and his mother was considerably older when she became pregnant with him and I think it is wrong to know that I have over a 50% chance of bringing a child into this world that suffers from Downs Syndrome or any other of the birth defects that are caused by these things.  So don't sit here and tell me that life is too precious to allow me to determine when I'm ready for it.  My life is precious too.

« Last Edit: May 14, 2009, 04:39:28 PM by PinkMilk »
I can see where your coming from but on the other hand i dont want my kid to learn about evolution or see homosexualisom talked about in a scince classs ethier. <-- From Youguysarepathetic

At least I have a mother. Have you? (serious question) <---From Skylark889

Offline nogodsforme

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 11187
  • Darwins +1865/-9
  • Gender: Female
  • Jehovah's Witness Protection Program
Re: Reproduction Morality - IVF and NFP
« Reply #56 on: May 14, 2009, 03:48:49 PM »
Masturbation, too? Please. Can you imagine how much better off our society would be if we all just admitted that we did it, knowing that it was perfectly natural and okay? Teenagers should be required to masturbate! By law. We should give them learner's permits, licenses and tests.   :D

Do you think that unmarried people, some of whom may never marry, should be celibate, ie have no sexual outlet whatsoever? I know a young woman who is in her early 20's with two small children. Her husband recently died of cancer and she is a now widow. So if she decided not to remarry, she should basically give up on any sexual activity, perhaps for the rest of her life? :P

I am glad people generally ignore the likes of you.

When all of Cinderella's finery changed back at midnight, why didn't the shoes disappear? What's up with that?

Offline Gnu Ordure

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3833
  • Darwins +109/-9
  • Gender: Male
Re: Reproduction Morality - IVF and NFP
« Reply #57 on: May 14, 2009, 04:04:54 PM »
Me:
Quote
PS Pinkmilk, you messed up the quotes at the end of your last, post, somewhat difficult to understand...

... and you did it again in your last post ! Hey, Pink, what are you doing your Ph.D in ? Don't tell me Computer Science.  ;)

By the way, I entirely support your dignified response to Agent40's ridiculous slurs about you and your lifestyle. Which, as you point out, she knew nothing about.

Now please go back and edit your posts, so they make sense. Or not. As you wish.

I couldn't care, more or less.

Gnu.