Author Topic: Evolution Explained  (Read 35754 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline rhocam

  • Student
  • **
  • Posts: 62
  • Darwins +0/-13
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Evolution Explained
« Reply #406 on: February 15, 2012, 03:01:27 PM »
Rhocam:

I'd like to help you get a Nobel Prize. Darwin listed ways to disprove his work in "On the Origin of Species By Means of Natural Selection."


So far, no one has been able to do it. Maybe you can. Give it a try.


http://www.literature.org/authors/darwin-charles/the-origin-of-species/


edit typo

I read his page on the problems and his "solutions". How does that confirm evolution? using confusing constructs and then insinuating that any who don't understand are fools reminds me of a similar story involing a King and his clothes. :)



Offline Omen

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 5955
  • Darwins +105/-15
  • One of the fucking bad guys; not friendly, tiger!
Re: Evolution Explained
« Reply #407 on: February 15, 2012, 03:04:15 PM »
I read his page on the problems and his "solutions". How does that confirm evolution? using confusing constructs and then insinuating that any who don't understand are fools reminds me of a similar story involing a King and his clothes. :)

You are clearly responding in a disingenuous and dishonest manner.
"Religious faith is the antithesis to knowledge, it is the opposition to education, and it has to act in animosity against the free exchange of ideas.  Why? Because those things are what cause harm to a religions place in society most." - Me

Offline rhocam

  • Student
  • **
  • Posts: 62
  • Darwins +0/-13
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Evolution Explained
« Reply #408 on: February 15, 2012, 03:12:57 PM »
Descent. The passing of genes from parent to progeny. also identified an inheritance. genes are passed along from one generation to the next.

The passing of genes is not evolution, it is certainly an aspect involved in evolution, but as literally defined it is not 'evolution' in and of itself.  Evolution is instead the measure of change of inherited characteristics.  Evolution also encompasses a wide range of evolutionary mechanisms, scientific theories that provide explanatory mechanisms on how various types of evolutionary changes occur.

emphasis mine

you state " the passing of genes is not evolution" what is the passing of genes then?

next you state " scientific theories that provide explanatory mechanisms." This is exactly what "science" i am calling out. You ignore the rule of heredity because it doesn't allow your theory. I have given three that you use interchangibly depending on what "evidence" you want to turn into "fact". The changing of what you call them does not change the actual way they work.

Heredity, randomness, natural selection. in order for one to be correct two have to be ignored.

Omen, giving me a comparative simulation built by man confirming what men think is akin to me creating a similar creation story.


Offline Omen

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 5955
  • Darwins +105/-15
  • One of the fucking bad guys; not friendly, tiger!
Re: Evolution Explained
« Reply #409 on: February 15, 2012, 03:17:57 PM »
Descent. The passing of genes from parent to progeny. also identified an inheritance. genes are passed along from one generation to the next.

The passing of genes is not evolution, it is certainly an aspect involved in evolution, but as literally defined it is not 'evolution' in and of itself.  Evolution is instead the measure of change of inherited characteristics.  Evolution also encompasses a wide range of evolutionary mechanisms, scientific theories that provide explanatory mechanisms on how various types of evolutionary changes occur.

emphasis mine

you state " the passing of genes is not evolution" what is the passing of genes then?

Reproduction.

Quote
next you state " scientific theories that provide explanatory mechanisms." This is exactly what "science" i am calling out. You ignore the rule of heredity because it doesn't allow your theory. I have given three that you use interchangibly depending on what "evidence" you want to turn into "fact". The changing of what you call them does not change the actual way they work.

Fallacy, red herring.  You've never specifically identified through description any evolutionary mechanism and you notably do not respond to the only definition in my post above.

Quote
Heredity, randomness, natural selection. in order for one to be correct two have to be ignored.

False, non-sequitur.  Your logic does not follow and make absolutely no attempt to build a logical argument that contains a valid inference.

Quote
Omen, giving me a comparative simulation built by man confirming what men think is akin to me creating a similar creation story.

Strawman.  The simulation uses natural selection as a mechanism, the results are no pre-programmed.  It is a confirmation of the mechanism as per typical experimentation with regards to scientific hypothesis in order to become a scientific theory.

You've completely obfuscated in response to everything.
"Religious faith is the antithesis to knowledge, it is the opposition to education, and it has to act in animosity against the free exchange of ideas.  Why? Because those things are what cause harm to a religions place in society most." - Me

Offline ParkingPlaces

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 6749
  • Darwins +817/-6
  • Gender: Male
  • If you are religious, you are misconcepted
Re: Evolution Explained
« Reply #410 on: February 15, 2012, 03:26:04 PM »
Heredity, randomness, natural selection. in order for one to be correct two have to be ignored.

Okay, no wise ass remarks or anything. I just want to make it clear.

There is no conflict between those items. Heredity happens. Random variation results. Natural selection (which may or may not be an important component, as per modern day theorists) occurs at least some of the time. That doesn't make it incompatible. It makes it possibly less relevant. The court appears to still be out on that one.

But none of us see any conflict. If you want us to, you're going to have to do some explaining. About why you think that to be the case.

What is so confusing about such a request?
Jesus, the cracker flavored treat!

Offline monkeymind

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2592
  • Darwins +44/-4
  • Gender: Male
  • I don't understand what I know about it!
    • How To Know If You Are A Real Christian
Re: Evolution Explained
« Reply #411 on: February 15, 2012, 03:27:19 PM »
Rhocam:

I'd like to help you get a Nobel Prize. Darwin listed ways to disprove his work in "On the Origin of Species By Means of Natural Selection."


So far, no one has been able to do it. Maybe you can. Give it a try.


http://www.literature.org/authors/darwin-charles/the-origin-of-species/


edit typo

I read his page on the problems and his "solutions". How does that confirm evolution? using confusing constructs and then insinuating that any who don't understand are fools reminds me of a similar story involing a King and his clothes. :)

Point is, anyone can claim evolution is wrong, but no one has been able to disprove it. If you can, you will be honored among men, and most likely rewarded with a Nobel Prize. It is how science works.

Point two: Good hypotheses and theories should always include a means of falsifying it. Darwin provided several. One he spells out clearly in chapter 6, in order to help you get your Nobel prize.

Point three: If you have an falsifiable alternative theory, please present it along with an example of how it may be shown incorrect.

If you find what Darwin said confusing, it is understandable why you don't understand modern explanations. And I agree with Omen, you are being disingenuous.
Truthfinder:the birds adapt and change through million of years in order to survive ,is that science, then cats should evolve also wings to better catch the birds
Mailbag:On a side note, back in college before my conversion, I actually saw a demon sitting next to me in critical thinking class.

Offline monkeymind

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2592
  • Darwins +44/-4
  • Gender: Male
  • I don't understand what I know about it!
    • How To Know If You Are A Real Christian
Re: Evolution Explained
« Reply #412 on: February 15, 2012, 04:15:10 PM »
Rhocam:

I have to go for now so here is a bonus to help you along in your endeavor to disprove evolution.

If you are talking about chapter 6 when you say the "page of problems and solutions" that was the chapter I was referring to and is actually entitled: Difficulties on Theory, where one can find this:

Quote
If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed, which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down.
Truthfinder:the birds adapt and change through million of years in order to survive ,is that science, then cats should evolve also wings to better catch the birds
Mailbag:On a side note, back in college before my conversion, I actually saw a demon sitting next to me in critical thinking class.

Online jaimehlers

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 5236
  • Darwins +597/-19
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Evolution Explained
« Reply #413 on: February 15, 2012, 04:20:27 PM »
Since rhocam appears to have slightly clarified what he meant as the three factors necessary for evolution, I'll take another crack at them.

So, heredity, variation, natural selection.  He claims that if one is correct, the other two have to be ignored.  Let's test that.

Heredity refers to inherited traits that offspring receive from their parents.  The very nature of heredity requires variation, because otherwise you would end up with unlimited clones of a single organism.  Since we do not see that, even in asexual reproduction which is essentially cloning, it is very clear that something is causing these organisms to vary as they pass their genes down from generation to generation.  So no conflict there at all.

Natural selection (in essence, the selection against unfavorable traits by the environment) has changed pretty significantly since it was first introduced by Darwin.  For example, we now understand the basis of heredity and variation and do not have to try to make natural selection explain everything.  But it can easily be shown that natural selection is compatible with heredity and variation.  If an organism's heredity passes down a variation to its offspring that is not as adapted to the environment (or not as effective at long-term survival), that offspring is simply less likely to survive to reproduce.  Therefore, natural selection works in conjunction with heredity and variation to select against organisms which are not as good at surviving in the current environment.  This results in the evolution of those organisms towards a greater survival potential.

So, wrong again.  Nothing incompatible here.

Offline Omen

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 5955
  • Darwins +105/-15
  • One of the fucking bad guys; not friendly, tiger!
Re: Evolution Explained
« Reply #414 on: February 15, 2012, 04:21:47 PM »
It is not even an argument; there isn't even a presentation of an inference that allows one to draw conclusions from premises.
"Religious faith is the antithesis to knowledge, it is the opposition to education, and it has to act in animosity against the free exchange of ideas.  Why? Because those things are what cause harm to a religions place in society most." - Me

Offline Anfauglir

  • Global Moderator
  • ******
  • Posts: 6207
  • Darwins +411/-5
  • Gender: Male
Re: Evolution Explained
« Reply #415 on: February 15, 2012, 04:21:59 PM »
I am waiting. evolution is built by you. so defend it now. Where are your transitional forms

Rhocam, you have been asked several times to clarify what you are asking for.  In your own words, please detail what you mean by a "transitional form". 

I want you to do this in your own words, without copy & pasting quotes, to begin to demonstrate that you understand what you are asking for.
 


Transitional form. Take me to the place where the branches on the tree of live converge. what would that transitional form look like?

It would look like me.  Or an elephant.  Or a wolf.  Or any creature alive today or any fossil that has been produced.  I did wonder if you understood what you were asking for - how I know you do not.  But its okay - if you're willing to learn I can walk you through it.

Heredity requires genes to be present before they can be passed, they must be present in the parent.
Does it?  Does heredity require that every single piece of genetic material be exactly copied in every way?  Are you an exact genetic copy of your parents?  (Hint: you aren't a clone).

Natural selection requires the progeny to be better than the parent.

Explain what you mean by "better", please.  Seriously - this is a crucial factor in the understanding of the ToE, and your use of the word here implies you don't have that understanding.

I did ask on the previous page that you state, in your own words, what you believe the ToE is.  I want to repeat that request to help me work out exactly where your understanding is flawed.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline rhocam

  • Student
  • **
  • Posts: 62
  • Darwins +0/-13
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Evolution Explained
« Reply #416 on: February 15, 2012, 04:26:13 PM »
Rhocam:

I have to go for now so here is a bonus to help you along in your endeavor to disprove evolution.

If you are talking about chapter 6 when you say the "page of problems and solutions" that was the chapter I was referring to and is actually entitled: Difficulties on Theory, where one can find this:

Quote
If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed, which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down.

Yet it has. The very mechanisms you claim verify evolution contradict each other.

Heredity, randomness, natural selection.

You still have to ignore two of them to confirm one.

I hold onto heredity. Genes must be present in order to be passed along.

Randomness ignores heredity, claiming that changes come by chance.

Which ignores natural selection, which claims that whis is is better than that which was.

which ignores heredity which claims that the genes of a progeny must be passed by the parent.

which ignores randomness through the claim that what is has been passed by one who has it already

Evolution has taken these thrown them in the soup of the past, and said it is how we were made.

Not scientific. Not rational, not logical.

Faith. That is all evolution is.

Offline rhocam

  • Student
  • **
  • Posts: 62
  • Darwins +0/-13
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Evolution Explained
« Reply #417 on: February 15, 2012, 04:27:39 PM »
I am waiting. evolution is built by you. so defend it now. Where are your transitional forms

Rhocam, you have been asked several times to clarify what you are asking for.  In your own words, please detail what you mean by a "transitional form". 

I want you to do this in your own words, without copy & pasting quotes, to begin to demonstrate that you understand what you are asking for.
 


Transitional form. Take me to the place where the branches on the tree of live converge. what would that transitional form look like?

It would look like me.  Or an elephant.  Or a wolf.  Or any creature alive today or any fossil that has been produced.  I did wonder if you understood what you were asking for - how I know you do not.  But its okay - if you're willing to learn I can walk you through it.

Heredity requires genes to be present before they can be passed, they must be present in the parent.
Does it?  Does heredity require that every single piece of genetic material be exactly copied in every way?  Are you an exact genetic copy of your parents?  (Hint: you aren't a clone).

Natural selection requires the progeny to be better than the parent.

Explain what you mean by "better", please.  Seriously - this is a crucial factor in the understanding of the ToE, and your use of the word here implies you don't have that understanding.

I did ask on the previous page that you state, in your own words, what you believe the ToE is.  I want to repeat that request to help me work out exactly where your understanding is flawed.

may I quote outside sources? I want to show that I have not made up natural selection.

Offline Omen

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 5955
  • Darwins +105/-15
  • One of the fucking bad guys; not friendly, tiger!
Re: Evolution Explained
« Reply #418 on: February 15, 2012, 04:32:40 PM »
Yet it has. The very mechanisms you claim verify evolution contradict each other.

This is a blank assertion, so far you haven't adequately even began to explain the terms you're trying to use.

Quote
Heredity, randomness, natural selection.

You still have to ignore two of them to confirm one.

Despite your ability to explain.

Quote
I hold onto heredity. Genes must be present in order to be passed along.

Randomness ignores heredity, claiming that changes come by chance.

What does one have to do with the other? 

This is a non-sequitur, it doesn't even basically tie the two terms together and your description is of entirely disparate functions.  It is as if you totally lack any informative basis for reproductive biology.  You're not even making a valid logical argument, its babbling nonsense.

Quote
Which ignores natural selection, which claims that whis is is better than that which was.

WHAT ignores natural selection? HOW does it ignore natural selection?  WHERE are you even explaining yourself?

Natural selection has nothing to do with "which claims that whis is is better than that which was"  That's not even coherent.

Are you mentally ill?
"Religious faith is the antithesis to knowledge, it is the opposition to education, and it has to act in animosity against the free exchange of ideas.  Why? Because those things are what cause harm to a religions place in society most." - Me

Offline rhocam

  • Student
  • **
  • Posts: 62
  • Darwins +0/-13
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Evolution Explained
« Reply #419 on: February 15, 2012, 04:36:30 PM »
Since rhocam appears to have slightly clarified what he meant as the three factors necessary for evolution, I'll take another crack at them.

So, heredity, variation, natural selection.  He claims that if one is correct, the other two have to be ignored.  Let's test that.

Heredity refers to inherited traits that offspring receive from their parents.  The very nature of heredity requires variation, because otherwise you would end up with unlimited clones of a single organism.  Since we do not see that, even in asexual reproduction which is essentially cloning, it is very clear that something is causing these organisms to vary as they pass their genes down from generation to generation.  So no conflict there at all.

Natural selection (in essence, the selection against unfavorable traits by the environment) has changed pretty significantly since it was first introduced by Darwin.  For example, we now understand the basis of heredity and variation and do not have to try to make natural selection explain everything.  But it can easily be shown that natural selection is compatible with heredity and variation.  If an organism's heredity passes down a variation to its offspring that is not as adapted to the environment (or not as effective at long-term survival), that offspring is simply less likely to survive to reproduce.  Therefore, natural selection works in conjunction with heredity and variation to select against organisms which are not as good at surviving in the current environment.  This results in the evolution of those organisms towards a greater survival potential.

So, wrong again.  Nothing incompatible here.

If you are combining the genes of two, wait, here is another thing you overlook. If bacteria repoduce by division and are still around why is there sex?

right randomness, ok so now randomness is the rule, wait a minute, if randomness is the rule what about heredity, how can I be sure my wife and I will produce human babies? o right heredity, I can't pass on genes I don't have, which are combined with the genes of my wife to carry on my genes, so heredity is the rule. Unless there is something that could possibly make my children better able to survive, then they would through some mysterious force, have that ability and pass it on to their children. So Natural selection is the rule, unless the change is random. which brings me back to the beginning.

This is what you have done for 200 years now, trying to keep people off balance and confused.

Time to grow up.

Offline Cyberia

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 907
  • Darwins +35/-0
Re: Evolution Explained
« Reply #420 on: February 15, 2012, 04:49:23 PM »
Omen is right, this guy is just babbling incoherent nonsense.  +1 for second opinion on him having a mental illness.
Soon we will judge angels.

Offline Omen

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 5955
  • Darwins +105/-15
  • One of the fucking bad guys; not friendly, tiger!
Re: Evolution Explained
« Reply #421 on: February 15, 2012, 04:50:51 PM »
If you are combining the genes of two, wait, here is another thing you overlook. If bacteria repoduce by division and are still around why is there sex?

right randomness, ok so now randomness is the rule, wait a minute, if randomness is the rule what about heredity, how can I be sure my wife and I will produce human babies? o right heredity, I can't pass on genes I don't have, which are combined with the genes of my wife to carry on my genes, so heredity is the rule. Unless there is something that could possibly make my children better able to survive, then they would through some mysterious force, have that ability and pass it on to their children. So Natural selection is the rule, unless the change is random. which brings me back to the beginning.

This is what you have done for 200 years now, trying to keep people off balance and confused.

Time to grow up.

You're not even responding to anything Jaime said, its just a string of utter nonsense.  The only thing that can garnered out of it is this question:

" If bacteria repoduce by division and are still around why is there sex?"

They are not.

Quote
"Bacterial Reproduction: Asexual
Most bacteria reproduce by binary fission. During binary fission, the single DNA molecule replicates and both copies attach to the cell membrane.

The cell membrane begins to grow between the two DNA molecules. Once the bacterium just about doubles its original size, the cell membrane begins to pinch inward.

A cell wall then forms between the two DNA molecules dividing the original cell into two identical daughter cells.
Bacterial Recombination:
Binary fission is an effective way for bacteria to reproduce, however it does produce problems. Since the cells produced through this type of reproduction are identical, they are all susceptible to the same types of antibiotics. In order to incorporate some genetic variation, bacteria use a process called recombination. Bacterial recombination can be accomplished through conjugation, transformation, or transduction.

Conjugation

Some bacteria are capable of transferring pieces of their genes to other bacteria that they come in contact with. During conjugation, one bacterium connects itself to another through a protein tube structure called a pilus. Genes are transferred from one bacterium to the other through this tube.

Transformation

Some bacteria are capable of taking up DNA from their environment. These DNA remnants most commonly come from dead bacterial cells. During transformation, the bacterium binds the DNA and transports it across the bacterial cell membrane. The new DNA is then incorporated into the bacterial cell's DNA.

Transduction

Transduction is a type of recombination that involves the exchanging of bacterial DNA through bacteriophages. Bacteriophages are viruses that infect bacteria. There are two types of transduction: generalized and specialized transduction.

Once a bacteriophage attaches to a bacterium, it inserts its genome into the bacterium. The viral genome, enzymes, and viral components are then replicated and assembled within the host bacterium. The newly formed bacteriophages then lyse or split open the bacterium, releasing the replicated viruses.

During the assembling process however, some of the host's bacterial DNA may become encased in the viral capsid instead of the viral genome. When this bacteriophage infects another bacterium, it injects the DNA fragment from the previous bacterium. This DNA fragment then becomes inserted into the DNA of the new bacterium. This type of transduction is called generalized transduction.

In specialized transduction, fragments of the host bacterium's DNA become incorporated into the viral genomes of the new bacteriophages. The DNA fragments can then be transfered to any new bacteria that these bacteriophages infect."

http://biology.about.com/od/bacteriology/a/aa080907a.htm

Also:

Quote
"Horizontal gene transfer (HGT), also lateral gene transfer (LGT) refers to the transfer of genetic material between organisms other than vertical gene transfer. Vertical transfer occurs when there is gene exchange from the parental generation to the offspring. LGT is then a mechanism of gene exchange that happens independently of reproduction.

Horizontal gene transfer is the primary reason for bacterial antibiotic resistance [1][2][3][4]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horizontal_gene_transfer

Again, this only emphasizes what is already apparent, you have no working knowledge on basic science or biology.  You don't even know what the terminology means, much less possess the ability to construct an argument that can be understood as possessed of a valid inference.  I have to keep pointing out the obvious Rhocam, you're not producing statements that are coherent, which invites a serious question as to your mental stability.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2012, 04:53:47 PM by Omen »
"Religious faith is the antithesis to knowledge, it is the opposition to education, and it has to act in animosity against the free exchange of ideas.  Why? Because those things are what cause harm to a religions place in society most." - Me

Offline JeffPT

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2118
  • Darwins +252/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm a lead farmer mutha fucka
Re: Evolution Explained
« Reply #422 on: February 15, 2012, 04:56:35 PM »
I hold onto heredity. Genes must be present in order to be passed along.

This is true.

Randomness ignores heredity, claiming that changes come by chance.

Hmm, no, not really.  The changes do come by chance, but the random mutation aspect of it does not ignore heredity at all.  In fact, its an integral part of the process.

You see, we know random mutations happen.  They are errors in the copying process.  How do we know they happen?  Because of genetic disorders and how they present.  There are lots of them to chose from. 

But let me show a little bit about how it works.  Lets say we have a strand of DNA that looks like this....

A-C-G-G-C-T-A-T-C-G-C-T 

T-G-C-C-G-A-T-A-G-C-G-T

There are a few ways we can get things to happen here.  First, we can have a single letter change... for example the third letter somehow (randomly, by chance. As an error in the copying process) is changed to a T.  Now, when that DNA strand codes for a protein, (or is part of the on / off sequencing of the coding), that random mutation gives a certain characteristic that is different than it would have been previously.  (For the sake of understanding, lets say it is... fur pigmentation in a rabbit or something).   If that particular difference makes a change that is beneficial to the individual (for our rabbit, if they live in the arctic, lets assume that maybe the fur is a bit more white than that of his neighbors), then that particular individual will be more likely to pass on its DNA (new and improved) to the next generation simply by being better adapted to survive in that particular environment.   You've already agreed to heredity, so that's not up for discussion. 

Another way it can happen is to have an ADDITIONAL letter added in.  Maybe add a T in between the first 2 G's up there.  In that respect, everything on down the line is going to be effected (pushed down one), and depending on where this addition is, this can have massive effects on the DNA sequence.  If the addition is late in the DNA strand, the effects might be less noticeable than if it were early in the sequence pushing everything on down the line. 

There are a few other ways that I can't remember off hand right now, but you get the point here.  These random changes (errors in the copying process for whatever reason) can be either good, bad or completely benign to the organism.  Do you see that now? 

Which ignores natural selection, which claims that whis is is better than that which was.

Really?  So with our rabbit in the previous example... if his random mutation gives him fur that is a bit more white than other individuals of his species... and he's living in the arctic; does that offer him it a better chance at survival?  Of course it does.  That one tiny copying error just happened to give the rabbit less fur pigmentation, and therefore an increased chance of survival over its neighbors.  What is the deciding factor between passing the genes on or not?  It's whether the rabbit gets killed (maybe by a wolf with good eyesight) before it mates.  In the arctic, does a white rabbit or an off white rabbit have a better chance to pass on it's genes?  The white rabbit does, obviously. 

Now that one tiny error MIGHT have given the rabbit increased muscle length, or better vision, or better hearing.. or it might have made it slower, or darker in color, or decreased it's sense of smell.  Natural selection determines whether or not it was beneficial simply by whether or not the new trait helps the individual live or die.  That's it.  It's as simple as that, really. 
 
which ignores heredity which claims that the genes of a progeny must be passed by the parent.

which ignores randomness through the claim that what is has been passed by one who has it already

No, and no. 

Evolution has taken these thrown them in the soup of the past, and said it is how we were made.

Because it offers the very best explanation as to how all life came to be.  Not because we like it, or because it's super cool and all we want to do is mash any silly creationist nonsense.  It's because it explains in great detail how all the facts fit together. 

Really, its not a conspiracy against you.  Even if evolution wasn't true, creationism or ID would still be utter bullshit.  It just so happens that evolution IS true.  It would be true regardless of what invisible sky man you or anyone else thinks exists. 

Not scientific. Not rational, not logical.

You're absolutely wrong here.  It's all 3.  Very much all 3. 

Faith. That is all evolution is.

No, it's not.  Faith is belief in the absence of evidence.  The evidence for evolution is overwhelming.  You may claim what you like, but you're just wrong here.  Evolution happens.  Sorry. 
Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Offline Azdgari

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 12537
  • Darwins +300/-32
  • Gender: Male
Re: Evolution Explained
« Reply #423 on: February 15, 2012, 04:58:44 PM »
Randomness ignores heredity, claiming that changes come by chance.

This is akin to saying that a dice-roll ignores the sides of the dice, since the result comes by chance.  In other words, it's nonsense.
I have not encountered any mechanical malfunctioning in my spirit.  It works every single time I need it to.

Offline Ambassador Pony

  • You keep what you kill.
  • Administrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 6858
  • Darwins +71/-4
  • Gender: Male
  • illuminatus
Re: Evolution Explained
« Reply #424 on: February 15, 2012, 05:58:39 PM »
Rhocam, what do the names Nostradamus and PZ Myers mean to you?
You believe evolution and there is no evidence for that. Where is the fossil record of a half man half ape. I've only ever heard about it in reading.

Offline monkeymind

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2592
  • Darwins +44/-4
  • Gender: Male
  • I don't understand what I know about it!
    • How To Know If You Are A Real Christian
Re: Evolution Explained
« Reply #425 on: February 15, 2012, 05:59:28 PM »
Rhocam:

I have to go for now so here is a bonus to help you along in your endeavor to disprove evolution.

If you are talking about chapter 6 when you say the "page of problems and solutions" that was the chapter I was referring to and is actually entitled: Difficulties on Theory, where one can find this:

Quote
If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed, which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down.

Yet it has.
The very mechanisms you claim verify evolution contradict each other.

Heredity, randomness, natural selection.

You still have to ignore two of them to confirm one.

I hold onto heredity. Genes must be present in order to be passed along.

Randomness ignores heredity, claiming that changes come by chance.

Which ignores natural selection, which claims that whis is is better than that which was.

which ignores heredity which claims that the genes of a progeny must be passed by the parent.

which ignores randomness through the claim that what is has been passed by one who has it already

Evolution has taken these thrown them in the soup of the past, and said it is how we were made.

Not scientific. Not rational, not logical.

Faith. That is all evolution is.

Yes what has? 

I haven't said anything about heredity, randomness, and natural selection. You need to pay better attention to who you are talking to. Please confirm or deny  what I say, not someone else.

I'm the one that tried to help you win a Nobel for disproving ToE. I  pointing out one way this could be done (according to Darwin). Please provide an example.

And...I'm the one that asked you for an alternative theory. Please provide one.
Truthfinder:the birds adapt and change through million of years in order to survive ,is that science, then cats should evolve also wings to better catch the birds
Mailbag:On a side note, back in college before my conversion, I actually saw a demon sitting next to me in critical thinking class.

Online jaimehlers

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 5236
  • Darwins +597/-19
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Evolution Explained
« Reply #426 on: February 15, 2012, 06:21:34 PM »
If you are combining the genes of two, wait, here is another thing you overlook. If bacteria repoduce by division and are still around why is there sex?
Because it does a more effective job at varying heredity than asexual reproduction, which depends on other factors to share genes between organisms.

Quote from: rhocam
right randomness, ok so now randomness is the rule, wait a minute, if randomness is the rule what about heredity, how can I be sure my wife and I will produce human babies? o right heredity, I can't pass on genes I don't have, which are combined with the genes of my wife to carry on my genes, so heredity is the rule. Unless there is something that could possibly make my children better able to survive, then they would through some mysterious force, have that ability and pass it on to their children. So Natural selection is the rule, unless the change is random. which brings me back to the beginning.
The fact that you make no effort to even try to understand how these things actually work doesn't mean that they're contradictory just on your say-so.  Heredity determines what can be passed down, "randomness" (variation) determines what actually is passed down, and natural selection determines whether what got passed down works.  It's really that simple.  If you want an even simpler analogy, heredity is the sides of the dice you roll, variation is the result you get, and natural selection is whether the roll is good enough to succeed.

Quote from: rhocam
This is what you have done for 200 years now, trying to keep people off balance and confused.

Time to grow up.
The only person keeping you off-balance and confused...is you.  You want the certainty of having a god who you can use to explain everything so that you don't have to think about it, but deep down, you aren't convinced.  You know there are problems with the God explanation that your religion gives; a god who had everything planned out from the beginning, yet was somehow completely stymied by two humans and a snake, all of which were created by him.  And it just gets more confusing and less convincing from there.  Scientific discoveries like evolution are not keeping people like you off-balance and confused; you were already off-balanced and confused in the first place.  The reason you blame evolution is because it is making you face up to that.

Offline ParkingPlaces

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 6749
  • Darwins +817/-6
  • Gender: Male
  • If you are religious, you are misconcepted
Re: Evolution Explained
« Reply #427 on: February 15, 2012, 07:14:02 PM »
I think I've figured it out. Rhocam things that random means ANYTHING can happen, while the rest of us understand that the randomness of evolution has to happen within the confines of what the particular genes in any given organism are capable of. Mouse genes that code for fur can make long fur, short fur, heavy fur, light fur, no fur. But they can't suddenly cause the poor little critter to sprout 99 wings and fly around in circles.

Randomness means a range or normal variation is always available and occasionally a new genetic combination will pop up that changes what happens in that animal. The fur falls out and the poor guy freezes to death and it didn't do a darned bit of good. Or the fur may fall out and it's a hot climate and suddenly the creature doesn't have to spend so much time underground during the days and he can start eating things never before available, and if that particular genetic combination gets passed down, there will start to be more hairless critters living a different way than their fore bearers.

Those genes defined some normal fur happenstance for the critter. The random change that caused the fur to fall out happened to be an advantage in warm weather and allowed the little guy to explore new niches. And in this hypothetical situation, the environment was such that the lack of fur and ability to survive hotter situations was to the animal's advantage, and perhaps it was then able to flourish. Over time, the furry ones would still live under the ground during the day and the naked ones would eventually become a different species, because their genetic material would not be the same as their forebearers.

Most random genetic variations are either harmless and don't manifest themselves in any useful way. Or they are bad and shorten the life of, or just plain kill, the affected organism. Because random means just that, and most rearrangements of genetic material, when done naturally like that, either make no difference or do something bad. Occasionally a change takes place that is helpful and gives the plant or animal an advantage it's parents didn't have. And if it survives to pass on those genes, and they are dominant and can express themselves in ensuing generations, then poof, something new and survivable and possibly species changing has happened.

What is so hard about that?
Jesus, the cracker flavored treat!

Offline Astreja

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3082
  • Darwins +280/-3
  • Gender: Female
  • Agnostic goddess with Clue-by-Four™
    • The Springy Goddess
Re: Evolution Explained
« Reply #428 on: February 15, 2012, 07:23:11 PM »
But let me show a little bit about how it works.  Lets say we have a strand of DNA that looks like this....

A-C-G-G-C-T-A-T-C-G-C-T 

T-G-C-C-G-A-T-A-G-C-G-T...

Great post, Jeff!

Rhocam, evolution isn't a zero-sum game with *either* random changes in genes *or* hereditary *or* environmental pressures.  There's a little bit of this and a little bit of that, with occasional changes in very small segments of DNA (caused by anything from sunlight to more of a certain chemical in the food), aggregated over immensely long periods of times through millions, billions, even trillions of generations.

Current conditions in the immediate environment of an organism affect its ability to feed and to live long enough to reproduce.  It takes a very small advantage (say, a 1% increase in speed) to make an entity more likely to survive than its competitors.

And there is a natural bias to see mainly the surviving gene lines, mainly because they represent the ones who are a good match for their environments.  Their competitors who weren't quite as fast, didn't have those pretty blue feathers or couldn't figure out how to crack open a certain type of nut were voted off the island generations ago.
Reality Checkroom — Not Responsible for Lost Articles

Offline caveat_imperator

  • Undergraduate
  • ***
  • Posts: 198
  • Darwins +6/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: Evolution Explained
« Reply #429 on: February 15, 2012, 09:56:41 PM »
I'm not the one polishing a turd and calling it science
Even you don't believe that shit you posted.
"In the end theologians are jealous of science, for they are aware that it has greater authority than do their own ways of finding “truth”: dogma, authority, and revelation. Science does find truth, faith does not. " - Jerry Coyne

Offline Fiji

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1353
  • Darwins +97/-2
  • Gender: Male
Re: Evolution Explained
« Reply #430 on: February 16, 2012, 01:57:40 AM »
Quote from: rhocam
right randomness, ok so now randomness is the rule, wait a minute, if randomness is the rule what about heredity, how can I be sure my wife and I will produce human babies? o right heredity, I can't pass on genes I don't have, which are combined with the genes of my wife to carry on my genes, so heredity is the rule. Unless there is something that could possibly make my children better able to survive, then they would through some mysterious force, have that ability and pass it on to their children. So Natural selection is the rule, unless the change is random. which brings me back to the beginning.
The fact that you make no effort to even try to understand how these things actually work doesn't mean that they're contradictory just on your say-so.  Heredity determines what can be passed down, "randomness" (variation) determines what actually is passed down, and natural selection determines whether what got passed down works.  It's really that simple.  If you want an even simpler analogy, heredity is the sides of the dice you roll, variation is the result you get, and natural selection is whether the roll is good enough to succeed.

Alos, rhocam, remember that Japanese fellow you mentioned a few posts back. Since you probably just copy/pasted that quote mine from somewhere, I doubt that you do remember him. If you had bothered to read about the man, beyond that one phrase, you would have seen that he demonstrated that the vast majority of this 'randomness' doesn't actually DO anything in the resulting organism.
So, if your worry is, 'oh no! there's so much randomness that me and my wife are going to have puppies!' ... first of all, the genetic changes needed for something like that are so enormous that you'd only see them in a universe where magic is real ... like in the fictional world described in Tolkien's work, or in the bible.  Second, the actual physical changes in your offspring, compared to you and your wife will be minor.
Science: I'll believe it when I see it
Faith: I'll see it when I believe it

Schrodinger's thunderdome! One cat enters and one MIGHT leave!

Without life, god has no meaning.

Offline Anfauglir

  • Global Moderator
  • ******
  • Posts: 6207
  • Darwins +411/-5
  • Gender: Male
Re: Evolution Explained
« Reply #431 on: February 16, 2012, 06:46:51 AM »
I did ask on the previous page that you state, in your own words, what you believe the ToE is.  I want to repeat that request to help me work out exactly where your understanding is flawed.

may I quote outside sources? I want to show that I have not made up natural selection.

No, you may not - you misunderstand what I'm asking of you.

It doesn't matter whether you believe what you will type in your response.
It doesn't matter if what you type is supported by every scientist under the sun, or if you just dreamed it last night.

What matters is that you tell us exactly what you think the theory of evolution is.  Because I have yet to be convinced that what YOU think it is bears any relation to what anyone ELSE thinks it is.

I just want to be absolutely clear on what you think you are objecting to, since most of your posts seem to show no real understanding of the subject.

So I want it all in your own words, NOT copy and pasted, please.  Any teacher will tell you that one of the best ways of understanding a subject is to put it in your own words.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline jetson

  • Administrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 7312
  • Darwins +170/-6
  • Gender: Male
  • Meet George Jetson!
    • Jet Blog
Re: Evolution Explained
« Reply #432 on: February 16, 2012, 06:51:27 AM »
Rhocam, what do the names Nostradamus and PZ Myers mean to you?

+1 to the admin.  Do I get a cookie?

Online jaimehlers

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 5236
  • Darwins +597/-19
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Evolution Explained
« Reply #433 on: February 16, 2012, 09:37:25 AM »
If I'm understanding correctly, rhocam thinks that randomness in genetics means that if you had a six-sided dice, you could roll a ten.  It doesn't.  Heredity constrains the results that can come up, exactly in the way a dice constrains the numbers that can be rolled from it.

Offline Ivellios

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1077
  • Darwins +52/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • Seek and Ye Shall Find
Re: Evolution Explained
« Reply #434 on: February 16, 2012, 09:56:20 AM »
I just find it funny that rhocam keeps claiming that evolution is faith based without evidence (at least he acknowleged what faith based meant...) though he applies it to the wrong thing.

Some goat herder says, "The Earth is Flat! There is an ocean held up by a dome and that's why the sky is blue!"
Rhocam: He said it, so it MUST be true.
Scientist: Ummm... the Earth is spherical (shows proof), and the blue sky is caused by (shows proof), rain comes from (shows proof). See?
Rhocam: WHAAAAAT!? You're showing me this FAITH BASED CRAP!? The goat herder is right! You don't even understand what you're saying.. it's absolute garbage. The Earth is flat! There is no beeple-boople glipple-boppers! This is false!
Scientist: Beeple... What!? Do you even understand what I'm saying?
Rhocam: Of course! Take your doodad-doohickey fik-a-nobs too!
Scientist: Please tell me in your own words what you think I'm saying.
Rhocam: Sorry, can't do that. I need to copy-paste someone else's words.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2012, 09:59:27 AM by TruthSeeker »