Author Topic: Evolution Explained  (Read 30793 times)

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Offline albeto

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Re: Evolution Explained
« Reply #203 on: November 11, 2011, 02:51:00 PM »
If I am to take the word Christian as the above meaning , would that then mean that not all people claiming to be Christians (West Boro Baptist Church) are  Christians.

Wrong.  Their decoder rings are just as meritorious as yours. 

Quote
If I am to agree with that statement, then the statement of ; They are not true christian could be correct in some statements. Would that not be a fair assessment?

huh?  I read this three times and I think you're skimping on the punctuation.  If you mean to say the following statement is correct: They are not true christians, the answer is no.  It is not a correct statement.  Anyone with the decoder ring gets to make the claim of being a true-blue-make-jesus-proud christian.  That's what you protestants agreed upon when you ran out on the catholic church almighty. 

Offline riley2112

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Re: Evolution Explained
« Reply #204 on: November 11, 2011, 03:02:31 PM »
albeto:  So, are you saying that anyone that claims to be a Christian is a Christian by the mere fact of them saying so? Isn't that premises a little shallow?
Most people think they know what they know. The problem starts by not knowing what you don't know. You know?  (Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence)   (Albert Einstein)One fool can ask more questions in a minute than twelve wise men can answer in an hour.
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Offline Omen

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Re: Evolution Explained
« Reply #205 on: November 11, 2011, 03:11:54 PM »
albeto:  So, are you saying that anyone that claims to be a Christian is a Christian by the mere fact of them saying so? Isn't that premises a little shallow?

A consequence of religious belief being devoid of any objective intellectual meaning.
"Religious faith is the antithesis to knowledge, it is the opposition to education, and it has to act in animosity against the free exchange of ideas.  Why? Because those things are what cause harm to a religions place in society most." - Me

Offline riley2112

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Re: Evolution Explained
« Reply #206 on: November 11, 2011, 03:19:33 PM »
albeto:  So, are you saying that anyone that claims to be a Christian is a Christian by the mere fact of them saying so? Isn't that premises a little shallow?

A consequence of religious belief being devoid of any objective intellectual meaning.
Please excuse my lack of understanding. Could you put that in a way that I might have a better grasp on it.
Most people think they know what they know. The problem starts by not knowing what you don't know. You know?  (Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence)   (Albert Einstein)One fool can ask more questions in a minute than twelve wise men can answer in an hour.
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Offline Alzael

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Re: Evolution Explained
« Reply #207 on: November 11, 2011, 03:24:48 PM »
albeto:  So, are you saying that anyone that claims to be a Christian is a Christian by the mere fact of them saying so? Isn't that premises a little shallow?

A consequence of religious belief being devoid of any objective intellectual meaning.
Please excuse my lack of understanding. Could you put that in a way that I might have a better grasp on it.

In other words, every Christian defines the term differently, relative to their own personal beliefs. Since there is no objective definition then there is no such thing as a true Christian. So a Christian is effectively whoever calls themselves one.
"I drank what?!"- Socrates

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Offline Omen

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Re: Evolution Explained
« Reply #208 on: November 11, 2011, 03:34:08 PM »
Please excuse my lack of understanding. Could you put that in a way that I might have a better grasp on it.

You do not possess the authority to define a 'true' christian.  Your reasoning for doing so is no different from a person that would insist that you are not a true christian.  I, being an objective observer, cannot differentiate between the two.

au·thor·i·ty/??THôrit?/
Noun:   

    The power or right to give orders, make decisions, and enforce obedience: "he had absolute authority over his subordinates".
    The right to act in a specified way, delegated from one person or organization to another.

ob·jec·tive/?b?jektiv/
Adjective:   
(of a person or their judgment) Not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts.


At this point if you do not possess the basic means to understand rudimentary sentences in english that individuals have repeatedly tried to convey to you in this thread, it fundamentally cannot be made any simpler.   Judging by your past insincerity and dishonesty ( as observed by Alzel ), this is likely an attempt at a sarcastic red herring on your part.
"Religious faith is the antithesis to knowledge, it is the opposition to education, and it has to act in animosity against the free exchange of ideas.  Why? Because those things are what cause harm to a religions place in society most." - Me

Offline Alzael

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Re: Evolution Explained
« Reply #209 on: November 11, 2011, 03:55:26 PM »

At this point if you do not possess the basic means to understand rudimentary sentences in english that individuals have repeatedly tried to convey to you in this thread, it fundamentally cannot be made any simpler.   Judging by your past insincerity and dishonesty ( as observed by Alzel ), this is likely an attempt at a sarcastic red herring on your part.

At least he acknowledged the possibility of it.

I think you're jumping the gun a bit on this one though. It could have been a genuine lack of understanding on his part.
"I drank what?!"- Socrates

"Dying for something when you know you'll be resurrected is not a sacrifice.It's a parlour trick."- an aquaintance

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Offline riley2112

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Re: Evolution Explained
« Reply #210 on: November 11, 2011, 04:09:34 PM »
Alzael: Isn't the very definition of a Christian to live his life like Christ. To follow the ways of Christ.  Doesn't that qualify for an objective definition?


Omen: I made a promise to myself the other day when I got nailed by Alzael. 1. I was going to try my best to be as honest on here and also with myself as possible. 2. I am going to take what is said to me here and give it open minded thought.

If I sound stupid,, so be it. I did not understand what you were trying to say. So I asked for the statement to be simplified so I could understand it. I may ask alot of foolish questions until I understand something.

As for me trying to make a sarcastic red herring. I truly wish I was smart enough to. You have read my posts. You have seen my grammar. If it was not for spell check I would really be in trouble. Now do you truly think I am smart enough to have a war of words with you are anyone on here. Not yet, but given enough time I hope to be able to argue a point as well as the rest of you. 


Most people think they know what they know. The problem starts by not knowing what you don't know. You know?  (Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence)   (Albert Einstein)One fool can ask more questions in a minute than twelve wise men can answer in an hour.
--Nikolai Lenin

Offline Alzael

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Re: Evolution Explained
« Reply #211 on: November 11, 2011, 04:56:03 PM »
Alzael: Isn't the very definition of a Christian to live his life like Christ. To follow the ways of Christ.  Doesn't that qualify for an objective definition?


But what does that entail?

Every single Christian would give you a different answer to that. They all think that Jesus said exactly what backs up their own personal beliefs. And they can all support their ideas with the same material, the same arguments (they think it's true), and the same evidence.

So the term "true Christian" ceases to have any actual meaning.
"I drank what?!"- Socrates

"Dying for something when you know you'll be resurrected is not a sacrifice.It's a parlour trick."- an aquaintance

Philip of Macedon: (via messenger) If we enter Sparta, we will raze all your buildings and ravage all your women.
Spartan Reply: If.

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Evolution Explained
« Reply #212 on: November 11, 2011, 06:41:46 PM »
Here's something that might help, riley.  You have certain scriptures from the Bible that you approve of, correct?  When you read them, you might feel like those are things no Christian could find fault with, because they make so much sense to you.  Now, consider that every Christian does the same thing, and feels the same way about certain scriptures.  Except that since they are different people, who think differently and have different experiences, their lists of essential scriptures are going to be different.  Each list is valid, but only to the person who came up with it, thus they are subjectively valid but not objectively valid.

It goes the same way with revering Jesus.  Jesus is depicted differently in each Gospel, and sometimes shifts behavior within each Gospel, so therefore you can have two people revering Jesus without agreeing on what Jesus represents to them.  I mean, you have the Jesus who abhors rich men (the famous "camel through the eye of the needle" saying), the Jesus who blesses the meek, the Jesus who brings not peace but a sword, the Jesus who expected followers to abide by Jewish laws, etc.  In essence, each believer constructs their own image of what Jesus means.  While they agree in general, most disagree on the specifics.

Offline riley2112

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Re: Evolution Explained
« Reply #213 on: November 11, 2011, 07:26:44 PM »
 jaimehlers:    Just so I understand,  the very concept of the word Christian is like a chameleon. Being that it changes from person to person depending on their own views and thus is never the same at any given moment. Which would make it impossible to be explained with any true valve that you could rely on.
Most people think they know what they know. The problem starts by not knowing what you don't know. You know?  (Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence)   (Albert Einstein)One fool can ask more questions in a minute than twelve wise men can answer in an hour.
--Nikolai Lenin

Offline albeto

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Re: Evolution Explained
« Reply #214 on: November 11, 2011, 07:49:58 PM »
jaimehlers:    Just so I understand,  the very concept of the word Christian is like a chameleon. Being that it changes from person to person depending on their own views and thus is never the same at any given moment. Which would make it impossible to be explained with any true valve that you could rely on.

In other words, SPAG [self projection as god].  In essence, the conceptualization of the biblical god reveals the character of the believer rather than the character of the stories. 

Offline riley2112

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Re: Evolution Explained
« Reply #215 on: November 11, 2011, 08:08:09 PM »
jaimehlers:    Just so I understand,  the very concept of the word Christian is like a chameleon. Being that it changes from person to person depending on their own views and thus is never the same at any given moment. Which would make it impossible to be explained with any true valve that you could rely on.

In other words, SPAG [self projection as god].  In essence, the conceptualization of the biblical god reveals the character of the believer rather than the character of the stories.
That is an interesting thought. I wish I had something to argue the point you are making, but I don't. And for some reason that causes me concern. I will have to think about this for awhile.
   
Most people think they know what they know. The problem starts by not knowing what you don't know. You know?  (Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence)   (Albert Einstein)One fool can ask more questions in a minute than twelve wise men can answer in an hour.
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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Evolution Explained
« Reply #216 on: November 11, 2011, 08:16:09 PM »
Yes, and that's why you have however many sects of Christianity there are.  Every member of every sect considers themselves to be legitimate Christians, and who can tell them otherwise?  They are operating based on their own personal conception of what it means to be a Christian, and they are all subjectively valid.  Even though the members of a given sect agree for the most part, they still have those little differences between each other.  That is why you end up with all the different sects, because eventually the differences between different parts of a sect diverge too much for them to still consider themselves to be part of the same sect.  And as an added irony, both halves consider themselves to be the original sect, and the other to be the ones who changed.

Offline jetson

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Re: Evolution Explained
« Reply #217 on: November 11, 2011, 08:33:54 PM »
Yes, and that's why you have however many sects of Christianity there are.  Every member of every sect considers themselves to be legitimate Christians, and who can tell them otherwise?  They are operating based on their own personal conception of what it means to be a Christian, and they are all subjectively valid.  Even though the members of a given sect agree for the most part, they still have those little differences between each other.  That is why you end up with all the different sects, because eventually the differences between different parts of a sect diverge too much for them to still consider themselves to be part of the same sect.  And as an added irony, both halves consider themselves to be the original sect, and the other to be the ones who changed.

You just described the evolution of Christianity!  In Darwinian terms!

Offline riley2112

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Re: Evolution Explained
« Reply #218 on: November 11, 2011, 08:43:47 PM »
Yes, and that's why you have however many sects of Christianity there are.  Every member of every sect considers themselves to be legitimate Christians, and who can tell them otherwise?  They are operating based on their own personal conception of what it means to be a Christian, and they are all subjectively valid.  Even though the members of a given sect agree for the most part, they still have those little differences between each other.  That is why you end up with all the different sects, because eventually the differences between different parts of a sect diverge too much for them to still consider themselves to be part of the same sect.  And as an added irony, both halves consider themselves to be the original sect, and the other to be the ones who changed.
Is this behavior the same with most religions or is this just reflective of the Christian religion?
Most people think they know what they know. The problem starts by not knowing what you don't know. You know?  (Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence)   (Albert Einstein)One fool can ask more questions in a minute than twelve wise men can answer in an hour.
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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Evolution Explained
« Reply #219 on: November 11, 2011, 08:51:44 PM »
I don't know other religions well enough to honestly say for sure.  I suspect so, though.

Offline Cyberia

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Re: Evolution Explained
« Reply #220 on: November 11, 2011, 08:55:23 PM »
Is this behavior the same with most religions or is this just reflective of the Christian religion?

eg: Sunnis vs Shiites
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Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: Evolution Explained
« Reply #221 on: November 11, 2011, 11:18:33 PM »
So, given the individual nature of subjective reality, it is fair to say that the only thing Christians have in common with each other is a belief in Jesus. Given the fact that Jesus means something different for each individual person you can hardly lump them all together in one group. Same goes for all people of all faith...or lack therof.
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Offline Historicity

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Re: Evolution Explained
« Reply #222 on: November 11, 2011, 11:47:18 PM »
Is this behavior the same with most religions or is this just reflective of the Christian religion?

Why, Riley, it's not reflective of ANY religion.  Don't you know the words:

   We are not divided
   All one body we
   One in Hope and Doctrine
   One in Charity?

Ask a member of any religion (other than your own) and they'll tell you they don't have divisions.  There has been the question of are their universal morals, one that everyone agrees on and I can say yes.

I've recently read a Moslem in the HuffPo claiming that unlike Christianity, Islam doesn't have denominations.   This, despite all the Sunni/Shiite violence we've seen in Iraq.   That split goes all the way to the beginning of Islam.  Mohammed designated his nephew Ali as his inheritor.  But his daughter Fatima was supported by some guys and they split to form the Sunnis.  Ali operated separately.  Then the Sunnis ambushed Ali and killed him.  Yet TIME magazine once reported that the Moslems don't have bitter divisions like the Catholic/Protestant split.  Where did they get that info?  Probably from a Moslem.

Now, the Buddhists.  There's a religion of peace and serenity.  Like Christianity they had ecumenical councils.  They had 3 and they were all in agreement.

Then the southern Buddhists held a council in Sri Lanka.  It set the doctrine of Theravada and they wrote the whole Tripitaka (Buddhist Bible).  This was the Fourth Council.

Then in 78 CE there was a Fourth Council in Kashmir which codified Mahayana Buddhism.  The Theravadans gave that Council the pleasant appellation of The Council of the 500 Heretics.  And they've despised each other ever since.  Except when they're presenting a smiling face to Moslems or Christians and deny it.

Everybody lies about it when speaking about it.

BTW, the Orthodox won't tell a Christian what they think of the "Self Hating Jews" aka the Reform and Conservative denominations.  Or what the Heredim (aka Ultra-Orthodox) think of all the other slackers.


Offline riley2112

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Re: Evolution Explained
« Reply #223 on: November 12, 2011, 12:30:21 AM »
If most if not all, ( and I am not saying all, as I would not know) religions sway from the very beliefs of what ever God they confess to following, then why would they follow any? I mean, what would be the point?
Does anyone have a logical reason for that sort of behavior? Do they truly believe that they can just make up the rules as they go along? If that be the case, how do I know beyond a reasonable doubt that I am worshipping the Lord in the correct way?

It seems like knowing which religion is the true religion of the one and only God ( if one exists, I believe one does) is an unreachable quest.

I am some how sadden that I have no argument against what you are saying.
Most people think they know what they know. The problem starts by not knowing what you don't know. You know?  (Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence)   (Albert Einstein)One fool can ask more questions in a minute than twelve wise men can answer in an hour.
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Offline Cyberia

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Re: Evolution Explained
« Reply #224 on: November 12, 2011, 01:19:36 AM »
Richard Dawkins made an excellent point about the falsehood of religions.  If you had grown up in a Jewish family you would be Jewish and believe deeply that you are worshiping your god correctly.  If you had grown up in a Muslim family you would be Muslim.  If you had grown up in Viking Norway, you would have deeply worshiped Thor and Odin.  If you had grown up in ancient Rome, you would have worshiped Zeus.  If you had grown up in India, you would be Hindu.  If you had grown up in Japan you would be Shinto.

RELIGIONS CANNOT BE TRUTHS!

Truth is NEVER determined by geographical location or your familial group or the time period you grew up during.

Science is Truth.  People in India, or any location in the world, don't disbelieve in electricity or aerodynamics or medical science or any other field of science.  Science is Truth because it's true EVERYWHERE, ALWAYS.  Science isn't always right, but it is willing to admit when it's WRONG (it requires it, in fact) and then change accordingly.  The Scientific Method is THE BEST tool humans have EVER developed to FIND the truth.  Bar none.  Period.

We have NEVER found any evidence at all for ANY supernatural entities or powers.  Every single problem we have tried to explain has eventually yielded a natural explanation.  The two great questions remaining are the Origin of the Universe, and the Origin of Life.  BOTH of these are obviously not worked out yet, but enough is known about them to strongly suspect that a natural solution is possible, and even probable.

Religions, ALL OF THEM, EVER, ARE FALSE.  They do not lead to the truth, instead they cause one to give up attempting to find the truth.  You've heard the phrase "The truth hurts"?  Sometimes it does.  Science doesn't ease the pain, it doesn't even attempt to.  But in pursuit of the truth, sometime you have to be brave and face an answer you don't want to hear. 

Religions only shield you from the truth.
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Offline wright

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Re: Evolution Explained
« Reply #225 on: November 12, 2011, 02:37:23 AM »
riley, I commend you for your honesty in admitting to a forum of (mostly) atheists that you have serious questions about religious belief. That is more than most theists who post here are willing to do.

If most if not all, ( and I am not saying all, as I would not know) religions sway from the very beliefs of what ever God they confess to following, then why would they follow any? I mean, what would be the point?
Does anyone have a logical reason for that sort of behavior? Do they truly believe that they can just make up the rules as they go along?

Your first question here was crucial to my letting go of my own faith (Evangelical Christian). I realized I was cherry-picking Biblical scripture and making up my own doctrine to fit my needs. What was more, so was every other "Christian" that I knew. How could this be, if we were really all worshipers of the same god?

A logical reason? Not many, though there are some; material success, for the pastors and staff of prosperous religious institutions. Many, many more emotional reasons though: the comfort of the familiar, the appeasement of fear (of dying, of being excluded, of eternal punishment), confirmation and affirmation of one's beliefs...

I think most believers don't see it as "making it up as they go along". Since religious doctrines are so prone to individual interpretation, it seems obvious to them that their self-projection is being confirmed by the doctrine itself.

 
Quote
If that be the case, how do I know beyond a reasonable doubt that I am worshipping the Lord in the correct way?

One of the big weaknesses of Pascal's Wager. Again, kudos to you for realizing this.

Quote
It seems like knowing which religion is the true religion of the one and only God ( if one exists, I believe one does) is an unreachable quest.

I am some how sadden that I have no argument against what you are saying.

Leaving faith behind is a far from painless process. But if that's where your questions really lead you, take some comfort that you're not the first. A moral, happy and fulfilling life as an atheist is certainly possible.

Heck, even if you don't abandon your faith, asking these questions is useful. It shows a willingness to consider other points of view that, again, a lot of theist posters here decidedly lack.
Live a good life... If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones. I am not afraid.
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Offline Alzael

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Re: Evolution Explained
« Reply #226 on: November 12, 2011, 12:19:04 PM »
If most if not all, ( and I am not saying all, as I would not know) religions sway from the very beliefs of what ever God they confess to following, then why would they follow any? I mean, what would be the point?
Does anyone have a logical reason for that sort of behavior? Do they truly believe that they can just make up the rules as they go along? If that be the case, how do I know beyond a reasonable doubt that I am worshipping the Lord in the correct way?

It seems like knowing which religion is the true religion of the one and only God ( if one exists, I believe one does) is an unreachable quest.

I am some how sadden that I have no argument against what you are saying.

That is the problem with religion.

Logic and the scientific method are the only way that we have yet discovered to differentiate fantasy from reality. Religion however sidesteps this by relying on the opposite, faith.

What this means is that religion can never actually tell you the truth about anything. At best all it can ever do is offer you an opinion. This is why they try to portray faith as being the highest of virtues. The only way they can get you to believe is to convince you not to think about it too much.
"I drank what?!"- Socrates

"Dying for something when you know you'll be resurrected is not a sacrifice.It's a parlour trick."- an aquaintance

Philip of Macedon: (via messenger) If we enter Sparta, we will raze all your buildings and ravage all your women.
Spartan Reply: If.

Offline riley2112

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Re: Evolution Explained
« Reply #227 on: November 12, 2011, 12:37:34 PM »
 Alzael: As stupid as this may sound, part of me wishes I had never came to the forum. But now that I have , it seems I can not stop thinking about what my future beliefs may be.
Most people think they know what they know. The problem starts by not knowing what you don't know. You know?  (Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence)   (Albert Einstein)One fool can ask more questions in a minute than twelve wise men can answer in an hour.
--Nikolai Lenin

Offline jetson

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Re: Evolution Explained
« Reply #228 on: November 12, 2011, 12:55:25 PM »
Alzael: As stupid as this may sound, part of me wishes I had never came to the forum. But now that I have , it seems I can not stop thinking about what my future beliefs may be.

Don't run away and hide behind your personal beliefs.  Challenge them, always.

Offline riley2112

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Re: Evolution Explained
« Reply #229 on: November 12, 2011, 01:01:38 PM »
Alzael: As stupid as this may sound, part of me wishes I had never came to the forum. But now that I have , it seems I can not stop thinking about what my future beliefs may be.

Don't run away and hide behind your personal beliefs.  Challenge them, always.
The truth will set you free.  Well let's see where it takes me. Should be an interesting trip.
Most people think they know what they know. The problem starts by not knowing what you don't know. You know?  (Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence)   (Albert Einstein)One fool can ask more questions in a minute than twelve wise men can answer in an hour.
--Nikolai Lenin

Offline Alzael

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Re: Evolution Explained
« Reply #230 on: November 12, 2011, 01:12:08 PM »
Alzael: As stupid as this may sound, part of me wishes I had never came to the forum. But now that I have , it seems I can not stop thinking about what my future beliefs may be.

It's ok.  It's a common feeling for someone in your position. I don't hold it against you. I was never religious myself but I understand that it gets better in the long run.

You may wish to talk to some of the former theists here.
"I drank what?!"- Socrates

"Dying for something when you know you'll be resurrected is not a sacrifice.It's a parlour trick."- an aquaintance

Philip of Macedon: (via messenger) If we enter Sparta, we will raze all your buildings and ravage all your women.
Spartan Reply: If.

Offline riley2112

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Re: Evolution Explained
« Reply #231 on: November 12, 2011, 03:22:45 PM »
Is this behavior the same with most religions or is this just reflective of the Christian religion?

eg: Sunnis vs Shiites
Thank you. That was interesting reading.
Most people think they know what they know. The problem starts by not knowing what you don't know. You know?  (Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence)   (Albert Einstein)One fool can ask more questions in a minute than twelve wise men can answer in an hour.
--Nikolai Lenin