Author Topic: why i dont bother with the NT or Quran  (Read 431 times)

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Offline Crocoduck

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why i dont bother with the NT or Quran
« on: May 02, 2009, 12:31:04 AM »
during my studies that led to my atheism, i realized that the problem was at the root of it all- Judaism. i eventually stopped paying attention to christian and islamic literature and focused on the source. its a pretty tangled web that has been woven and i stumbled across a video that kinda sums it all up.


take a look-


[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=llCm3gLU6tM[/youtube]
*note. the term "Elohim" is a plural, the video doesnt mention that explicitly.
(this also takes down mormonism as joseph smith didnt know that "elohim" is a group of gods (plural)... not a or the god.)


if you study up on this at all, the gymnastics that are used to try and deny it are pretty amazing, but the proof is in the pottery and the archeological evidence that was supposed to prove these religions has actually uncovered a totally different story.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2009, 09:27:04 AM by Crocoduck »
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Offline bahramthered

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Re: why i dont bother with the NT or Quran
« Reply #1 on: May 02, 2009, 12:44:30 AM »
Fruit of the tainted tree.

-Legal term.

Offline Agamemnon

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Re: why i dont bother with the NT or Quran
« Reply #2 on: May 02, 2009, 01:01:54 AM »

Good video, thanks, croc.
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: why i dont bother with the NT or Quran
« Reply #3 on: May 02, 2009, 01:38:52 PM »
The deeper you dig the deeper the rabbit hole goes
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline OldChurchGuy

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Re: why i dont bother with the NT or Quran
« Reply #4 on: May 02, 2009, 04:15:47 PM »
during my studies that led to my atheism, i realized that the problem was at the root of it all- Judaism. i eventually stopped paying attention to christian and islamic literature and focused on the source. its a pretty tangled web that has been woven and i stumbled across a video that kinda sums it all up.


take a look-


[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=llCm3gLU6tM[/youtube]
*note. the term "Elohim" is a plural, the video doesnt mention that explicitly.
(this also takes down mormonism as joseph smith didnt know that "elohim" is a group of gods (plural)... not a or the god.)


if you study up on this at all, the gymnastics that are used to try and deny it are pretty amazing, but the proof is in the pottery and the archeological evidence that was supposed to prove these religions has actually uncovered a totally different story.

First time I heard or read that Elohim is a plural.  Any books or websites you can refer me to for further information?

As always,

OldChurchGuy 
Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle - Philo of Alexandria

Whether one believes in a religion or not, and whether one believes in rebirth or not, there isn't anyone who doesn't appreciate kindness and compassion - Dalai Lama

Offline Crocoduck

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Re: why i dont bother with the NT or Quran
« Reply #5 on: May 02, 2009, 04:52:00 PM »


First time I heard or read that Elohim is a plural.  Any books or websites you can refer me to for further information?

As always,

OldChurchGuy 

it is extremely difficult to weed through all the apologetics about this, as there are three different assaults on this info.

the -im at the end shows plurality of EL or Eloh, many will say it is not plural but if you notice the us, our etc... in the same sentence it is obvious.

but it can also be a singular as well (adding to the confusion) depending on the sentence structure, and some even say it is just plural to explain the trinity- not likely unless they are willing to admit that jesus and the holy spirit are lesser gods as Elohim isnt the highest.

the best direction i can point to is Prof Robert Price of the  Johnnie Colemon Theological Seminary
or
Hector Avalos Philosophy and Religious Studies at Iowa State University
as they seem to be the most unbiased of all ive spoken with.



here is another example of how the translation is altered-

Deuteronomy 32:8
(KJV)  "When the Most High divided to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel."

(NIV) "When the Most High gave the nations their inheritance, when he divided all mankind, he set up boundaries for the peoples according to the number of the sons of Israel."

the real verse says (from the dead sea scrolls)-

"When the Most High [El] divided to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, He set the bounds of the people, according to the number of the sons of Elohim, For YHWH’s portion is his people, Jacob is the lot of his inheritance."

this is where the "Most High" or El give YHWH his portion of the 11 tribes (Israel), and the other sons (Baal, etc...) get their tribes.

but the bibles translate it totally different trying to remove the other gods from the equation.


here is another link i found-
linkage
« Last Edit: May 02, 2009, 05:29:58 PM by Crocoduck »
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Offline OldChurchGuy

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Re: why i dont bother with the NT or Quran
« Reply #6 on: May 02, 2009, 06:34:34 PM »


First time I heard or read that Elohim is a plural.  Any books or websites you can refer me to for further information?

As always,

OldChurchGuy 

Interesting link.  Thank you very much.

I was aware about the early Hebrews being polytheistic such as the story in Genesis where Jacob's wife, Rebecca has stolen her father's gods and is sitting on them when he comes looking for them.  Apparently it was believed at the time that if one possessed another person's icons then one had power over the person.  Rebecca was able to get away with it by claiming she was having her period making her ritually unclean and thus not able to stand.

I recall seeing a footnote in my NIV Study Bible explaining the noun was El-Shaddai in Hebrew (God of the Mountain, as I recall) but never linked all the "Els" with Elohim.  I'll try to find articles or books written by the sources you mentioned.

As always,

OldChurchGuy



it is extremely difficult to weed through all the apologetics about this, as there are three different assaults on this info.

the -im at the end shows plurality of EL or Eloh, many will say it is not plural but if you notice the us, our etc... in the same sentence it is obvious.

but it can also be a singular as well (adding to the confusion) depending on the sentence structure, and some even say it is just plural to explain the trinity- not likely unless they are willing to admit that jesus and the holy spirit are lesser gods as Elohim isnt the highest.

the best direction i can point to is Prof Robert Price of the  Johnnie Colemon Theological Seminary
or
Hector Avalos Philosophy and Religious Studies at Iowa State University
as they seem to be the most unbiased of all ive spoken with.



here is another example of how the translation is altered-

Deuteronomy 32:8
(KJV)  "When the Most High divided to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel."

(NIV) "When the Most High gave the nations their inheritance, when he divided all mankind, he set up boundaries for the peoples according to the number of the sons of Israel."

the real verse says (from the dead sea scrolls)-

"When the Most High [El] divided to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, He set the bounds of the people, according to the number of the sons of Elohim, For YHWH’s portion is his people, Jacob is the lot of his inheritance."

this is where the "Most High" or El give YHWH his portion of the 11 tribes (Israel), and the other sons (Baal, etc...) get their tribes.

but the bibles translate it totally different trying to remove the other gods from the equation.


here is another link i found-
linkage
Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle - Philo of Alexandria

Whether one believes in a religion or not, and whether one believes in rebirth or not, there isn't anyone who doesn't appreciate kindness and compassion - Dalai Lama

Offline Hermes

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Re: why i dont bother with the NT or Quran
« Reply #7 on: May 02, 2009, 07:15:31 PM »
Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons. --Michael Shermer

The history of religion is a long attempt to reconcile old custom with new reason, to find a sound theory for an absurd practice.  --Sir James George Frazer

Offline Positiveaob

Re: why i dont bother with the NT or Quran
« Reply #8 on: May 02, 2009, 08:22:47 PM »
Great post.  There's no argument more compelling against christian fundamentalism than showing how the bible came to exist. 
If you desire peace of soul and happiness, then believe; if you would be a disciple of truth, then inquire. - Neitzsche

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