Input and a question for you [#1312]

[DL]

Hi,

       I am an educated person who happens to be a Christian.  The presentation that
you've laid out on your YOUTUBE video is seriously flawed. I don't agree with
the questions you've asked or the way in which you present them.  In the
light you present these situations, they refer to the immovable way in which
Old Testament and it's references in the New Testament to God's Law.  As a
moderate Christian person (not a fundamentalist), I don't find your questions
insulting but ineffective.  Your presentation of the extreme unfortunately is
likely based on your experiences with coming up against fundamentalist
opposition.  You should consider broadening the scope by looking at your
cause more objectively - but first, know this:

1.  Most Christians do not follow fundamentalist viewpoints, i.e. I am a Lutheran
and we understand that no one can abide by Gods Law simply because we are born of
sin and most if not all of us, continue to sin because of it.  That being said, we
also know that we are saved thru asking for forgiveness and our belief in Jesus
Christ.

2.  A slanted view is a slanted view - period. It is a radical view for or against
anything - in this respect, I liken your video to an al Queida Madrassa, the very
fundamentalists you display, Nazism, any form of extremism.  You're putting your own
spin on what is said in the Bible and stretching or picking specifics to make your
point.  I consider it just as dangerous - no where do you mention you are
charitable, compassionate or forgiving - Oops!

3.  There should be another point you should make (unless you are going for shock);
you should renounce satan with the same fervor that you renounce God.  That would be
more convincing to a fence sitter and also "take the bullet out of the gun" of
fundamentalists - unless...well you know.

4.  God and the belief in him and his Devine Intervention is not something that can
resolve the world's problems (amputees, dying children, etc.).  We have free will,
warts and all.  People get hurt, people die, people are sad; this has nothing to do
with God but with man.  God won't just miraculously appear because we want him to;
you need to understand there is separation from what is parable & what is factual
reporting of occurances.

        In closing, I'd like to let you know also that I am aware of Ishtar, Isis,
Tommuz and all of the rest and how some people interpret we are caught up in
Idollatry but don't know it.  Yes, it is very possible that the poor people
who wanted to convert to Christianity back in the early days had no pious
images and may have felt a need to have something to pray to.  That also
being said, there aren't any in the Bible - no crosses, no Mary's no images
period - us intelligent, moderate Christians know this.  Why don't you ask
yourself why that is?  Is it because God doesn't exist or is it because
God's image isn't the message?

Sincerely,
An Intelligent Christian who isn't delusional in the least

[Nam]

1.  Most Christians do not follow fundamentalist viewpoints, i.e. I am a Lutheran
and we understand that no one can abide by Gods Law simply because we are born of
sin and most if not all of us, continue to sin because of it.  That being said, we
also know that we are saved thru asking for forgiveness and our belief in Jesus
Christ.

Are most Christians Lutheran? No. Most Christians are Roman Catholic, and for Protestant's most Christians are Baptist (or Southern Baptist).

2.  A slanted view is a slanted view - period. It is a radical view for or against
anything - in this respect, I liken your video to an al Queida Madrassa, the very
fundamentalists you display, Nazism, any form of extremism.  You're putting your own
spin on what is said in the Bible and stretching or picking specifics to make your
point.  I consider it just as dangerous - no where do you mention you are
charitable, compassionate or forgiving - Oops!

There are 38,000 Christian denominations, do they not each put their own "spin" on what to be a Christian is? Would you liken them to being the equivalent of Al-Qaeda? I don't think so. Is it not then an insult for you to liken the videos by the owner of this website to that of being just like Al-Qaeda?

4.  God and the belief in him and his Devine Intervention is not something that can
resolve the world's problems (amputees, dying children, etc.).  We have free will,
warts and all.  People get hurt, people die, people are sad; this has nothing to do
with God but with man.  God won't just miraculously appear because we want him to;
you need to understand there is separation from what is parable & what is factual
reporting of occurances.

Explain how Christians have "free-will"? Especially since you're a part of God's plan, and God knows past, present, and future. Also, is it really "free-will" when you're given two options which amount to: If you do it, you'll go to heaven if you do not do it then you will go to hell. Is that really "free-will" when the alternative is pain? Or is that just someone sticking a gun to your head and say: do it, or else? Perhaps it is free-will, one could just choose to get shot but not really a choice worth making.

In closing, I'd like to let you know also that I am aware of Ishtar, Isis,
Tommuz and all of the rest and how some people interpret we are caught up in
Idollatry but don't know it.  Yes, it is very possible that the poor people
who wanted to convert to Christianity back in the early days had no pious
images and may have felt a need to have something to pray to.  That also
being said, there aren't any in the Bible - no crosses, no Mary's no images
period - us intelligent, moderate Christians know this.  Why don't you ask
yourself why that is?  Is it because God doesn't exist or is it because
God's image isn't the message?

There are no "Mary's" in the Bible? I think you need to read the Bible again.

-Nam

[Tails_155]

Why would I renounce Satan? Satan doesn't even bother to call anymore!

[DL]

OP replies via email:

---

Hi again,

    I read your responses to my questions - I feel sorry for you - you seem very
bitter.  For the record, I was a Catholic before I became a Lutheran; as for the
largest sect among the Christian population and how strongly they feel  - it is
very much moderate.  Here's a "tell" you can keep - the ones who make the
headlines & the noise are looking for something beyond salvation; which in
itself is a shame because that is a symptom of vanity.  Your reply to my
question one, much like your video takes much out of context and leaves more
questions than it answers.

    As for question two, what I meant was - I likened your video to an al Queida
Madrassa, in that you don't present all of the facts and the ones you do, are
out of context - I don't think your al Queida - another point you've taken out
of context.  How does what W. & his entourage did - does that give you a better
picture?  What I do think is that you're more interested in self promotion by
using athiesm  & the internet as a means to your end.  How many Christian
denominations is irrelevant - once again, peoples interpretation and how they
convey the message is paramount; do they all center around a certain theme (no
matter what it is), and do they in fact believe in forgiveness thru Christ?  If
they do - guess what - they're saved.  The road will always be different for
everyone - it's the same destination.

    Question four - we have free will - we make choices everyday - I'll make it
simple for you - did you wake up this morning & decide to have eggs for
breakfast or slaughter your family & kill yourself?  Our free will enables us to
decide what we'll do.  You've chosen your own fate if you forsake God and die -
however, I think that up until the last breath you have, you can attain
salvation - again - you use literal interpretation of the Bible to make your
point of view - very Christian fundamentalist of you -and just as wrong as
slanting the message.

    I see you have two hours in between questions - question four - did you have to
consult someone stop for dinner or T.V.?  Judging by the time lapse & your
answer, I've come to this conclusion - you want intelligent responses to post,
but you can't or may not be able formulate them yourself; and when you do
respond - frankly your answer to all of my questions, especially question four -
well, it's pubescent.   Just how old are you?

Still intelligent & not delusional

[Deus ex Machina]

Hi "intelligent and non-delusional",

I'm not the author of either of the posts to which you responded, but I thought I'd respond to just one point in your most recent comments.

I read your responses to my questions - I feel sorry for you - you seem very bitter.

How on earth do you get that from the two responses you've received in this thread?

Also, what is it about Christians (sorry to make such a generalization, but you do get to see the word 'bitter' a lot when reading submissions from Christians to this site) that say this? It's an easy charge to make. Dismiss someone's argument as if it has no value simply by waving your hands and declaring them "bitter". That's not a particularly intelligent or rational way to address someone's comments. I wonder if it's because Christians are brought up to believe that non-Christians are an embittered lot - I don't know, perhaps it's assumed that they can't possibly be happy if they're 'lost' and 'godless' - and therefore they simply assume it to be true before they start. It's like some kind of Christian form of Tourette's Syndrome. "If they say something against God or my beliefs, it must be because they're bitter." As if that makes the argument magically go away. What's to be "bitter" about? Really.

Question four - we have free will - we make choices everyday - I'll make it
simple for you - did you wake up this morning & decide to have eggs for
breakfast or slaughter your family & kill yourself?  Our free will enables us to
decide what we'll do.

How does that illustrate free will? Apart from the fact that it's a biased sample - no-one who might have opted to slaughter their family and kill themselves would be in a position to respond to your message, after all - the very fact that you ask the rhetorical question illustrates how we don't have free will. You expect and predict that in general, people faced with a binary choice of having breakfast or going on a killing-spree are going to opt for the former course. This demonstrates quite clearly that people are generally predictable (a fact that religious institutions and hustlers are equally able to manipulate to their benefit), which is, if anything, an observation rather destructive to the notion of free will.

You've chosen your own fate if you forsake God and die

Nope. I can no more "choose" to believe in your deity than I could "choose" to believe I can fly.

[subtleinspiration]

Still intelligent & not delusional

If you were intelligent, you would have examined your beliefs with a critical eye and wouldn't have e-mailed here with the same lame-ass typical responses that we get from theists on a daily basis. Since you have failed to do so, the only explanation is that you have preferred to believe in something that gives you positive emotions, regardless of whether it is true or not. That in and of itself is fine, but your belief is not just something that makes you feel good, but that also colors how you view the world and the people in it. Because you have this belief which you use to interpret the events that happen to you and around you, and because you have not seriously examined what you believe with a critical eye and have resorted to the same old tactics of many before you (which have been debated to death and are simply not valid explanations and contain numerous logical fallacies) then the conclusion is that not only are you are not intelligent, you are delusional.

[Irish]

I read your responses to my questions - I feel sorry for you - you seem very
bitter.

And you were able to discern emotional traits based upon electronic text on a computer screen?

Still not intelligent & not delusional

You had a word in the wrong place in that last sentence.  I fixed it for you.

Edit: If you want to have an actual conversation with us then register with the forum and we'll go from there.

[Petey]

1.  Most Christians do not follow fundamentalist viewpoints, i.e. I am a Lutheran
and we understand believe that no one can abide by Gods Law primitive man's law projected upon a mythical being simply because we are born of
sin a man-made idea to make us feel unworthy and most if not all of us, continue to sin go against the current interpretation of our particular variety of Christianity because of it.  That being said, we
also know believe with no evidence that we are saved can live forever in perfection thru asking for forgiveness and our belief in Jesus
Christ.

I hope you don't mind me taking the liberty of making a few corrections.

2.  A slanted view is a slanted view - period. It is a radical view for or against
anything - in this respect, I liken your video to an al Queida Madrassa, the very
fundamentalists you display, Nazism, any form of extremism.  You're putting your own
spin on what is said in the Bible and stretching or picking specifics to make your
point.  I consider it just as dangerous - no where do you mention you are
charitable, compassionate or forgiving - Oops!

You're all over the place here.  From an undefined "slanted view", to extremism, to misinterpretation, then over to compassion and forgiveness.  Were you trying to make some kind of a point with this, or were you just rambling?

3.  There should be another point you should make (unless you are going for shock);
you should renounce satan with the same fervor that you renounce God.  That would be
more convincing to a fence sitter and also "take the bullet out of the gun" of
fundamentalists - unless...well you know.

Renouncing satan (along with all other deities not mentioned in the video) goes without saying.  Satan is not the focal point of the religion that the video is debunking, therefore it need not be the focal point of the video.  Remember, the video assumes an intelligent audience...which should be able to figure out those basics on their own.

4.  God and the belief in him and his Devine Intervention is not something that can
resolve the world's problems (amputees, dying children, etc.).  We have free will,
warts and all.  People get hurt, people die, people are sad; this has nothing to do
with God but with man.  God won't just miraculously appear because we want him to;
you need to understand there is separation from what is parable & what is factual
reporting of occurances.

If god can't solve the world's problems, then he is neither omnipotent nor omniscient.  But that's not the issue here.  The issue is why nobody can even give one modern example (with verifiable evidence) of a "miracle" that can't be explained naturally.


Edit: fixed quotes

[velkyn]

Well, considering that the OP has managed to insult with each post,  and hitting ever stereotypical thing that a Christian has ever said on these forums, they seem to be neither intelligent nor Christian (assumign this means turnign the other cheek). 

OP, nothing you have said is new.  The old claim that anyone who doesn't agree with you couldn't possibly be a Christian is repeated by nearly every Christian on this forum. 

You accuse atheists of being "bitter".  Now, do you want to go for "sad", "lonely", "angry" etc, to make you feel better? 

There is nothing "slanted" in the video.  If so, please demosntrat how the facts aren't being presented correctly.  I find that accusations of bias only come from those who are angry that their bias isn't being lauded as the only correct answer.

If you would read your bible, there is little to support God's interest in free will, starting with daming humanity for crimes they didnt' commit.  No free will there at all.  No free wll for Pharoah, no free will for those who have been on the opposite side of miracles, etc etc. 

You claim to have the usual magic decoder ring that tells you what is literal and which is metaphor.  Unfortunately every other Christian has one too and none of you agree.

I renounce Satan the same I renouce God.  They are both little invisible friends that theists (even Satanists) like to claim will beat up on non-believers like bullies in a play ground.

[Nam]

OP replies via email:

---

Hi again,

    I read your responses to my questions - I feel sorry for you - you seem very
bitter.  For the record, I was a Catholic before I became a Lutheran; as for the
largest sect among the Christian population and how strongly they feel  - it is
very much moderate.  Here's a "tell" you can keep - the ones who make the
headlines & the noise are looking for something beyond salvation; which in
itself is a shame because that is a symptom of vanity.  Your reply to my
question one, much like your video takes much out of context and leaves more
questions than it answers.

You're confusing me speaking about people who "make headlines", I'm talking about people I know or have come across in my life. And, these people think this way, not the way you state.

As for question two, what I meant was - I likened your video to an al Queida
Madrassa, in that you don't present all of the facts and the ones you do, are
out of context - I don't think your al Queida - another point you've taken out
of context.

You implied with your statement exactly what I stated. You "likened" this website to being Al-Qaeda based on the fundamental aspect (you see, which I admit has some bearing) but the difference between the two are very quite different.

What I do think is that you're more interested in self promotion by
using athiesm  & the internet as a means to your end.

I'm not an Atheist. I'm Ignostic. So, how is that self-projection concerning me?

How many Christian denominations is irrelevant - once again, peoples interpretation and how theyconvey the message is paramount; do they all center around a certain theme (no matter what it is), and do they in fact believe in forgiveness thru Christ?

It's not irrelevant. It's irrelevant to you; there's a difference.

If they do - guess what - they're saved.  The road will always be different for
everyone - it's the same destination.

Your opinion, and not one a lot of Christians hold for other Christians who are not their denomination; especially those who are a part of the SBC and carm.org who find that Catholics are not Christian, or many other denominations are not Christian.

Question four - we have free will - we make choices everyday - I'll make it
simple for you - did you wake up this morning & decide to have eggs for
breakfast or slaughter your family & kill yourself?  Our free will enables us to
decide what we'll do.  You've chosen your own fate if you forsake God and die -
however, I think that up until the last breath you have, you can attain
salvation - again - you use literal interpretation of the Bible to make your
point of view - very Christian fundamentalist of you -and just as wrong as
slanting the message.

I interpret the Bible for what it says; some of it is parables, allegory, and figurative, however most Christians take it literal, and therefore my opinion, based on such things, is based on how they interpret it moreso than how I interpret it; and it's "universal" in that sense. And, these are "everyday" Christians interpreting this way not just Fundamental Christians as you relay.

I see you have two hours in between questions - question four - did you have to
consult someone stop for dinner or T.V.?  Judging by the time lapse & your
answer, I've come to this conclusion - you want intelligent responses to post,
but you can't or may not be able formulate them yourself; and when you do
respond - frankly your answer to all of my questions, especially question four -
well, it's pubescent.   Just how old are you?

This is a forum -- not everyone is online at the same time. Are you an adolescent? 'Cause you sound like one if you're stating such a thing.

Still intelligent & not delusional

That's up for debate. I thought you were intelligent at first but with your reply; I'm thinking that's not true.

-Nam

[Tails_155]

Okay. ALL posts aside (I don't have time to read them)

You broke Godwin's Law, you mentioned Free Will, and you state parables vs fact...

As a OneTrueChristian™

FOR US, PLEASE, I AM YELLING AND BEGGING AT AND TO YOU, create a totally factual bible, and replace all parables with plain explanation, sell it on Amazon, and we'll check it out, if it's affordable.

[Nam]

FOR US, PLEASE, I AM YELLING AND BEGGING AT AND TO YOU, create a totally factual bible, and replace all parables with plain explanation, sell it on Amazon, and we'll check it out, if it's affordable.

Didn't Thomas Jefferson already do this?



-Nam

[Hermes]

        In closing, I'd like to let you know also that I am aware of Ishtar, Isis,
Tommuz and all of the rest and how some people interpret we are caught up in
Idollatry but don't know it.  Yes, it is very possible that the poor people
who wanted to convert to Christianity back in the early days had no pious
images and may have felt a need to have something to pray to.  That also
being said, there aren't any in the Bible - no crosses, no Mary's no images
period - us intelligent, moderate Christians know this.  Why don't you ask
yourself why that is?  Is it because God doesn't exist or is it because
God's image isn't the message?

Who said it was?

I'm curious if you had a question in your letter to this web site, yet I don't see one that seems to be aimed at me.  Do you wish to rephrase or clarify what you are interested in getting a response to?

(Note: I've read your second message also, and I'm still a bit puzzled about what you're asking.)

[Tails_155]

FOR US, PLEASE, I AM YELLING AND BEGGING AT AND TO YOU, create a totally factual bible, and replace all parables with plain explanation, sell it on Amazon, and we'll check it out, if it's affordable.

Didn't Thomas Jefferson already do this?



-Nam

Those arguments aside, I want to see this OneTrueChristian™'s version

[DL]

OP replies via email:

---

Hi - for the last time -

        When I said I felt you were bitter I meant JUST YOU not all athiests - I
have aquaintences & close family members who are athiests - not only do I
not tell them how to live and respect them, they respect me and my choice to
worship.  But let's get back to you - JUST YOU - you are, bitter - but since
I don't know you I don't think it's about who worships God or I know it's
not your atheism; it's your personality or maybe this is the way you get
"hits" on your blog - hey, maybe it's just an act.  If you think I'm
attacking you then maybe I've hit a nerve and there is some truth in what I
say.  In closing, you can say whatever you want & do whatever you want
because - you will anyway - that's FREE WILL!  Unless you're living in Iran,
Cuba, Venezuela or China, you still have some.  As for me, I've made my
statements to you, have been honest with you and concise but you take what I
say, break it into "ebites" and tweek it until it makes YOUR point.  Much
Later.

Beam me up Scotty, there's no INTELLIGENT ATHIESTS on this blog!

[subtleinspiration]

Beam me up Scotty, there's no INTELLIGENT ATHIESTS on this blog!

Pot, meet kettle.

[Ambassador Pony]

Beam me up Scotty, there's no INTELLIGENT ATHIESTS on this blog!

It's there are.

And, I won't bother correcting the rest of that train wreck.

[Irish]

When I said I felt you were bitter I meant JUST YOU not all athiests - I
have aquaintences & close family members who are athiests...

...Beam me up Scotty, there's no INTELLIGENT ATHIESTS on this blog!

It shows your intelligence when you can't even spell that which you are mocking.  The word is 'atheist'.  Dictionaries don't have the word 'athiest'.  Since you spelled the word 'atheist' incorrectly multiple times I know it wasn't just a typo but you in fact have no idea what you are talking about.

Nice to meet you and goodbye.

[Emily]

So, OP, how old are you?

[Hermes]

As for me, I've made my statements to you, have been honest with you and concise but you take what I say, break it into "ebites" and tweek it until it makes YOUR point.  Much Later.

I couldn't understand what you meant, so I have no idea if you were honest or not ... it was all gibberish to me.

Beam me up Scotty, there's no INTELLIGENT ATHIESTS on this blog!

You know, I just don't feel insulted.

[Deus ex Machina]

OP replies via email:

---

Hi - for the last time -

        When I said I felt you were bitter I meant JUST YOU not all athiests - I
have aquaintences & close family members who are athiests - not only do I
not tell them how to live and respect them, they respect me and my choice to
worship.  But let's get back to you - JUST YOU - you are, bitter - but since
I don't know you I don't think it's about who worships God or I know it's
not your atheism; it's your personality or maybe this is the way you get
"hits" on your blog - hey, maybe it's just an act.  If you think I'm
attacking you then maybe I've hit a nerve and there is some truth in what I
say.  In closing, you can say whatever you want & do whatever you want
because - you will anyway - that's FREE WILL!  Unless you're living in Iran,
Cuba, Venezuela or China, you still have some.  As for me, I've made my
statements to you, have been honest with you and concise but you take what I
say, break it into "ebites" and tweek it until it makes YOUR point.  Much
Later.

Beam me up Scotty, there's no INTELLIGENT ATHIESTS on this blog!

You know, it sounds very much like you're the one who's bitter. As far as 'free will' is concerned, I wouldn't be so sure you have it. After all, how much do you have, really? You act according to patterns that are set according to your predispositions. In reading material critical of your position, you (predictably) lash out - as you have done here? Tell me, is that 'free will'? It's certainly not an indicator of the ideals you purport to uphold as a Christian. Is it 'intelligent'? It wouldn't seem so, given that it's a rather puerile tirade that does nothing to address the counterpoints made against your position. And on the subject of 'intelligent', once you get around to making an intelligent point, then one might be in a position to demonstrate such an attribute. As it is, it's Garbage In, Garbage Out.

Take care.

[Ashe]

Oh my. And he/she never even knew me.  :'(

[velkyn]

OP replies via email:

---

Hi - for the last time -

        When I said I felt you were bitter I meant JUST YOU not all athiests - I
have aquaintences & close family members who are athiests - not only do I
not tell them how to live and respect them, they respect me and my choice to
worship.  But let's get back to you - JUST YOU - you are, bitter - but since
I don't know you I don't think it's about who worships God or I know it's
not your atheism; it's your personality or maybe this is the way you get
"hits" on your blog - hey, maybe it's just an act.  If you think I'm
attacking you then maybe I've hit a nerve and there is some truth in what I
say.  In closing, you can say whatever you want & do whatever you want
because - you will anyway - that's FREE WILL!  Unless you're living in Iran,
Cuba, Venezuela or China, you still have some.  As for me, I've made my
statements to you, have been honest with you and concise but you take what I
say, break it into "ebites" and tweek it until it makes YOUR point.  Much
Later.

Beam me up Scotty, there's no INTELLIGENT ATHIESTS on this blog!

oh, we could only hope it was for the last time.  Always nice to have a theist claim to be able to read minds *and* who avoids questions. 

[Nam]

OP replies via email:

---

Hi - for the last time -

        When I said I felt you were bitter I meant JUST YOU not all athiests - I
have aquaintences & close family members who are athiests - not only do I
not tell them how to live and respect them, they respect me and my choice to
worship.  But let's get back to you - JUST YOU - you are, bitter

Explain how, I am specifically, bitter? You can't. Why? 'Cause I'm not. I give a shit if you're a Christian, if anyone is a Christian, if you wish to worship feet or whatever. You can do whatever the fuck you want in such regard. What I, and most of us, do care about is people who are religious forcing their ideals of morality and what they constitute being right/wrong on myself, and those who disagree with their standpoint. Be who you are without forcing your ideals on others. If your Atheist friends outside this website agree with you, or anyone else who does this, then, they're idiots.

but since I don't know you I don't think it's about who worships God or I know it's not your atheism; it's your personality or maybe this is the way you get
"hits" on your blog - hey, maybe it's just an act.

Blog, what blog? Are you still thinking you're speaking to the owner of the website? You're not. You're speaking to the members of the website, individually.

If you think I'm attacking you then maybe I've hit a nerve and there is some truth in what I say.  In closing, you can say whatever you want & do whatever you want
because - you will anyway - that's FREE WILL!  Unless you're living in Iran, Cuba, Venezuela or China, you still have some.

I think Saudi Arabia would be a better example of lack of free-will since the countries you list actually allow their citizens some free-will compared to Saudi Arabia that doesn't.

As for me, I've made my statements to you, have been honest with you and concise but you take what I say, break it into "ebites" and tweek it until it makes YOUR point.  Much
Later.

Beam me up Scotty, there's no INTELLIGENT ATHIESTS on this blog!

I'm not an Atheist.

-Nam