Christians - Fess up to your beliefs

[Tealeaf]

When confronted with the horrific events of the OT, many Christians either choose to ignore them or attempt to explain them in a piss poor manner that always contradicts itself or one of the basic teachings of the faith. Thing is, many so called Christians don't even read the bible and simply take the word of anyone pretending to be wise on the subject. First, you need to actually read the damn thing, through and through.

When doing so, ask yourself why this all-mighty god is so primitive in his methods and why much of the content is completely absurd when faced with modern science and modern standards of morality. God commands and/or condones the torture and murder and rape and more, of numerous people, yet he is all-loving. People need to carry out the actions of god yet he is all-powerful. This god has emotions just like any mortal man. Why?

That's just a start. When engaging those of the Christian faith on these topics of the absurdity of the OT, I often hear this defence of 'the significance of Jesus' or rather 'that all changed in the NT with the addition of Jesus'.

So 'the significance of Jesus' is a line those ignorant of the absurdity of their own religion often use to try and justify the atrocities and insanity of the OT. It is true that the NT is a little more tame than the OT but it still does contain a great deal of non-sense. Then of course the grand complex that makes no sense at all. The god of the bible is the same guy the whole way through. There is no escaping this. Especially since god is 'forever'. If he is present in Jesus thus making Jesus the 'son of god' then it totally nullifies the 'loving sacrifice' that Christians love to boast about. If god has anything AT ALL to do with Jesus, the entire complex is pointless and null. Observe:

*Jesus is the son of god. Meaning he was sent by god, according to his plan, and he is in Jesus. He was sent to die. Die for our sins. The sins of course are made up by god (whatever is sinfull is made up by god, just as politicians/officials make the laws). Right right. So, exactly why does god need to come down in human form or simply inspired human form, have himself knowingly nailed to a cross by his own creations (everyone is god's creation), to pay for the sins of said creations, for breaking the rules that he (god) created? How the fuck is that a sacrifice?? How can all-powerful god die?? How does a half-man, half-god who both knows he is going to die and that he is going to everlasting paradise have anything to really worry about anyway? In a nut-shell, god is sacrificing himself....to HIMSELF. That is the harsh reality of the absurdity of the Christian faith. You have all-mighty god up in heaven, shaking his head at how 'bad' we are, how 'lost' we are....so he decides to come down to earth and impregnate a virgin woman (who is also his creation in the end, so this is divine inscest right here, or rather, divine masterbation) to give birth to a son that is just him in human form (well actually him and the mother....who he also inevitabley had a hand in creating), with the plan to inevitabley be executed and sent right back up to heaven (so god....sends himself back to....himself) meanwhile god has now forgiven all of us because he killed himself down here....to go back up there.

Why this intricate, diabolical plan? Why does all-powerful god have to do this and even if he did, why is it a sacrifice and how does it change anything? Again, we have god killing himself, for himself, to pay for a punishment that would be carried out by himself, on his creations that he created....by himself.*

Couple this with the fact that the bible hardly teaches anything moral and you can piece together why Chrisitanity is just another piece of fiction created by primitive men. You have nothing to gain from it other than feel-good delusions of answered prayers and the false-hope of everlasting life. It's a drug, like any other. You are going to get a 'high' from trying to rationalize what I have just explained. That, or from completely ignoring what I have just explained. Don't get off on the fact that the bible contains a few accurate statements either. It has nothing to do with the extreme teachings and the overall basis of it. It has a couple good moral teachings too. But remember, it's over a thousand years old and over a thousand pages long....I can think of many shorter and much younger, modern work that contains much more moral guidance.
-------------------
Of course, there will be a horde of zombie Christians on here who will refuse to criticize the basic points of their own religion and tell me somehow I'm wrong. They are complete zombies. A zombie does not examine it's world and only has one figuritive objective....to not think. What exactly have I stated that is not a basic "fact" of Christianity? Ironically, many of the sentences/thoughts I've used have been thrown at me by people explaining the faith.

Now, those of you Christians who have kept it together to read this far: I want you to address the Jesus complex between the *'s I have conveniently put around the two paragraphs containing it. That is my point. Forget everything else I said. Focus on that. Hell, print it off and hand it to your local religious official.

And for fuck sakes, if you are a Christian attempting to rationalize this, stay ON TOPIC, keep at least some sort of constant stream of thought and do not pull things out of no where or that hole on your lower backside.

Faith is not even an excuse on this matter, let alone an answer. When you take the basic things said about Jesus to their very end, this is what happens. What do you have faith in? There is nothing to have faith in at this point that I can see.

(yes, I copied my post from the other section, this one seems to get much more traffic)

[Hermes]

Related blog post;

Why won't Christians and Jews admit the immorality of what is actually written in the Bible?
http://www.atheistmissionary.com/2009/03/why-wont-christians-and-jews-admit.html

David Hodgson (born 1939) is an author and Australian appellate judge. He has written an excellent article entitled "Dawkins and the Morality of the Bible (first published in Quadrant 436 (May 2007), 38-43)which you can find at: http://users.tpg.com.au/raeda/website/Dawkins.htm

In this article, Hodgson notes that it is right for Christians and Jews to condemn genocide and terrorism. However, he then suggests that in order for them to be consistent they should acknowledge the following 8 statements:

1. It would have been wrong for God to order Abraham to kill his son, as the Bible says He did.

2. It would have been wrong for Abraham to set about doing so.

3. It is wrong to kill an innocent person because you believe God has told you to.

4. It would have been wrong for God to kill children to induce Pharaoh to release the Israelites. (It would have been terrorism.)

5. It would have been wrong for God to order the Israelites to kill all occupants of defeated cities. (It would have been to order genocide.)

6. It would have been wrong for Joshua and his followers to kill all occupants of Jericho. (It would have been genocide.)

7. If Jesus believed that God had killed children to induce Pharaoh to release the Israelites, it would have been wrong for him to celebrate the Passover. (It would have been to condone terrorism.)

8. The Bible stories of Abraham and Isaac, the Passover and the battle of Jericho were written by fallible human beings and convey wrong messages about God and morality.

What Hodgson is calling for is a frank admission of the immorality of what is actually written in the Bible. The fact that many fundamentalist Christians and Jews refuse to make these admissions and instead engage in apologetics to defend the indefensible scares me (see the discussion thread following this post: Scripture warns, if "you did not hate bloodshed, b... ). It is precisely what fuels this blog.

Of course, this is the tip of the brimstone.

[Tealeaf]

Hey, I'm even giving them the benefit of sitting there and thinking the sories of the OT are acceptable or moral at all.

My focus is that even as fucked up and immoral, diabolical plan, the Jesus story is stil pointless and utterly void of any meaning given the circumstances and the very basic aspects that all Chrsitians agree on about it. (such as that Jesus is something special somehow tied to or closer to god)

[OldChurchGuy]

When confronted with the horrific events of the OT, many Christians either choose to igrnore them or attempt to explain them in a piss poor manner that always contradicts itself or one of the basic teachings of the faith. Thing is, many so called Christians don't even read the bible and simply take the word of anyone pretending to be wise on the subject. First, you need to actually read the damn thing, through and through.

When doing so, ask yourself why this all-mighty god is so primitive in his methods and why much of the content is completely absurd when faced with modern science and modern standards of morality. God commands and/or condones the torture and murder and rape and more, of numerous people, yet he is all-loving. People need to carry out the actions of god yet he is all-powerful. This god has emotions just like any mortal man. Why?

That's just a start. When engaging those of the Christian faith on these topics of the absurdity of the OT, I often hear this defence of 'the significance of Jesus' or rather 'that all changed in the NT with the addition of Jesus'.

So 'the significance of Jesus' is a line those ignorant of the absurdity of their own religion often use to try and justify the atrocities and insanity of the OT. It is true that the NT is a little more tame than the OT but it still does contain a great deal of non-sense. Then of course the grand complex that makes no sense at all. The god of the bible is the same guy the whole way through. There is no escaping this. Especially since god is 'forever'. If he is present in Jesus thus making Jesus the 'son of god' then it totally nullifies the 'loving sacrifice' that Christians love to boast about. If god has anything AT ALL to do with Jesus, the entire complex is pointless and null. Observe:

*Jesus is the son of god. Meaning he was sent by god, according to his plan, and he is in Jesus. He was sent to die. Die for our sins. The sins of course are made up by god (whatever is sinfull is made up by god, just as politicians/officials make the laws). Right right. So, exactly why does god need to come down in human form or simply inspired human form, have himself knowingly nailed to a cross by his own creations (everyone is god's creation), to pay for the sins of said creations, for breaking the rules that he (god) created? How the f**k is that a sacrifice?? How can all-powerful god die?? How does a half-man, half-god who both knows he is going to die and that he is going to everlasting paradise have anything to really worry about anyway? In a nut-shell, god is sacrificing himself....to HIMSELF. That is the harsh reality of the absurdity of the Christian faith. You have all-mighty god up in heaven, shaking his head at how 'bad' we are, how 'lost' we are....so he decides to come down to earth and impregnate a virgin woman (who is also his creation in the end, so this is divine inscest right here, or rather, divine masterbation) to give birth to a son that is just him in human form (well actually him and the mother....who he also inevitabley had a hand in creating), with the plan to inevitabley be executed and sent right back up to heaven (so god....sends himself back to....himself) meanwhile god has now forgiven all of us because he killed himself down here....to go back up there.

Why this intricate, diabolical plan? Why does all-powerful god have to do this and even if he did, why is it a sacrifice and how does it change anything? Again, we have god killing himself, for himself, to pay for a punishment that would be carried out by himself, on his creations that he created....by himself.*

Couple this with the fact that the bible hardly teaches anything moral and you can piece together why Chrisitanity is just another piece of fiction created by primitive men. You have nothing to gain from it other than feel-good delusions of answered prayers and the false-hope of everlasting life. It's a drug, like any other. You are going to get a 'high' from trying to rationalize what I have just explained. That, or from completely ignoring what I have just explained. Don't get off on the fact that the bible contains a few accurate statements either. It has nothing to do with the extreme teachings and the overall basis of it. It has a couple good moral teachings too. But remember, it's over a thousand years old and over a thousand pages long....I can think of many shorter and much younger, modern work that contains much more moral guidance.
-------------------
Of course, there will be a horde of zombie Christians on here who will refuse to criticize the basic points of their own religion and tell me somehow I'm wrong. They are complete zombies. A zombie does not examine it's world and only has one figuritive objective....to not think. What exactly have I stated that is not a basic "fact" of Christianity? Ironically, many of the sentences/thoughts I've used have been thrown at me by people explaining the faith.

Now, those of you Christians who have kept it together to read this far: I want you to address the Jesus complex between the *'s I have conveniently put around the two paragraphs containing it. That is my point. Forget everything else I said. Focus on that. Hell, print it off and hand it to your local religious official.

And for f**k sakes, if you are a Christian attempting to rationalize this, stay ON TOPIC, keep at least some sort of constant stream of thought and do not pull things out of where.

Faith is not even an excuse on this matter, let alone an answer. When you take the basic things said about Jesus to their very end, this is what happens. What do you have faith in? There is nothing to have faith in at this point that I can see.

(yes, I copied my post from the other section, this one seems to get much more traffic)

The questions raised about the Trinity in the two paragraphs bordered by an asterisk are valid and, from my perspective, unanswerable. 

For me, I believe the Bible is a collection of writings trying to explain what it is like to know or experience God.  I also believe God exists.  Can I prove these beliefs are correct?  No.  Should I expect others to agree with my belief? No.  Could my beliefs be totally false? Yes. 

This and other atheist websites as well as theist websites have taught me it is silly to argue a subjective belief as though it is an objective fact. 

As always,

OldChurchGuy

[LogicalChristian]

Hi!
In regards to the Abraham killing his son thing, you must first realize that all life belongs to God, thus He can ask for any life He wants.  Second, it was not wrong for Abraham to start killing his son because God asked him to.  "Thou shalt have no other gods before Me," means that we shouldn't put anything above God, so if God asks for your son, you give it to Him.
That's just how we see it.

I'm in the middle of reading the OT right now.  I've read the gruesomeness.  Like a father punishing his children, God punished the Israelites.  All He asked for was the Israelites to put Him first and follow some rules.  He forgave them over and over and over, yet they continued to sin, so He punished them just like they deserved.  (Well, actually they deserved worse according to the contract they agreed to...)

"this all-mighty God is so primitive in his methods and why much of the content is completely absurd when faced with modern science and modern standards of morality."
Of course you realize that "primitive" is relative.  For the time it wasn't all that bad.  He punished His children by allowing other nations to attack them, thus the methods those nations used (which today seem primitive) are what were used.

I feel like I'm just going to be repeating myself over and over.  In regards to the "condones torture etc yet is all-loving" thing, once again I'm going back to the Father analogy.  When my parents were young, if they misbehaved, they got a spanking or worse.  Nowadays, parents (generally) never lay a hand on their children.  It's just a different time, a different level of accepted punishment, a different culture.  I wouldn't condemn my grandparents for spanking my parents because it was just different then.  It was the way it was.  Go back a couple thousand years, and the Israelites' Father's method of reprimanding was acceptable for that time.  And God isn't exactly having the earth open and shallow people anymore, just like parents don't beat their children (generally) anymore.

(Yaay!  I didn't even mention Jesus in my explanation! [I'm responding as I read])

Ha, your explanation of the Trinity (or 2/3s of it) made me smile.  You're not going to like this answer, but, as much as I love logic, there comes a point when you have to accept that you need faith.  That said, I will try to explain as much as possible.  First, you're taking this out of context.  You can't just pull one thing out (try avoiding fallacies such as this please).  It might be easier for me just to start at the beginning and explain everything versus this skip-over-half-of-the-Book thing.  God made people w/ the ability to choose.  He wanted to have people He could love and that would love Him.  I don't know about you, but I would want someone choose to love me, and not have him love me only because I'm making him.  Same deal w/ God.  So, people unfortunately didn't choose God.  They chose what God had defined as "sin".  There was the same deal w/ the angels and some of them *cough satin cough* also chose sin.  So, since satin "tricked" them into sin, he got them.  Punishment for sin was death and hell.  Couple thousand years later, God sent Jesus (half God, half man) to not sin, yet still die and go to hell to take the place of sinners.  Now we don't have to go to hell.
So, that's why He did it.  I get what you're trying to say about like, but why would He die because of His own rules, right?  I have a question. lol.  Have you ever read/watched Chronicles of Narnia, because they explain lots of this quite well...
In the end, God is so infinitely more than I am, so I can't know exactly what went through His brain... and neither can YOU.

If you have any questions/critiques/etc, feel free; I tried my best to stay on topic (I think I did, right?)

"if you are a Christian attempting to rationalize this, stay ON TOPIC, keep at least some sort of constant stream of thought and do not pull things out of where."  In return, please avoid using logical fallacies (contextomy).  Thanks! 

[Hermes]

In regards to the Abraham killing his son thing, you must first realize that all life belongs to God, thus He can ask for any life He wants.  Second, it was not wrong for Abraham to start killing his son because God asked him to.

Hold.

So, you take as a given Divine Command Theory; what your deity (God) commands is by necessity moral?

Specifically, do you agree with this statement;

The name “divine command theory” can be used to refer to any one of a family of related ethical theories. What these theories have in common is that they take God’s will to be the foundation of ethics. According to divine command theory, things are morally good or bad, or morally obligatory, permissible, or prohibited, solely because of God’s will or commands.

http://www.philosophyofreligion.info/christian-ethics/divine-command-theory/

[holybuckets]

If atheists think the Bible is a myth or at best made up facts, then why are you even arguing about this?
Isn't is silly to argue about some Zeus god or whoever that killed someone who wasn't real?
Come on, the Bible isn't history... it didn't happen, right?

[Sheep Extreme]

bm for later  .  Excellent post.

[Asmoday]

If atheists think the Bible is a myth or at best made up facts, then why are you even arguing about this?
Isn't is silly to argue about some Zeus god or whoever that killed someone who wasn't real?
Come on, the Bible isn't history... it didn't happen, right?

You are correct, that the bible does not describe actual history and that atheists see the bible as a collection of myths and stories.

But unfortunately it is unimportant, what atheists think about the bible. The important thing is, that (christian) theists see the bible as a description of actual history and god´s message. Since these fellows try to impose their own rules on the rest of us and since they use the bible to justify their actions, it makes only sense to discuss what is described in the bible and to show people, that the stories in the bible make no sense, are downright false and on top of that portray a god, which would be not worthy of our worship if such a god existed.

I guess, most atheist would be glad, if we had not to argue about some stories of bronze age goat herders again and again. The reason why we do it, is that for alot of christians it´s not enough to live by the rules theses goat herders made up. They want everybody else to live by these bronze age rules aswell.

[holybuckets]

Just did a Google search on the atheist population of the United States... came up with 1.6 - 4%.
Seems to me the atheist have to come up with better arguments... more people are buying the "myth" than they are the "real" stuff your saying.

[Phyllis Officle]

Just did a Google search on the atheist population of the United States... came up with 1.6 - 4%.
Seems to me the atheist have to come up with better arguments... more people are buying the "myth" than they are the "real" stuff your saying.

This says more about the mentality of the American population than it does for the "arguments" of the atheists. After all, they have probably been so brainwashed, they don't know any better. That is thankfully changing and atheism is on the rise. However, in a country where about 75% of the population don't even own a passport or know about anything outside of their own country, you can come to expect such ignorance.

[xTigerx]

Just did a Google search on the atheist population of the United States... came up with 1.6 - 4%.
Seems to me the atheist have to come up with better arguments... more people are buying the "myth" than they are the "real" stuff your saying.

Or maybe we should start indoctrinating kids.  Or maybe we should adopt a dogmatic belief system.  Or maybe we should kill thousands of people who disagree with us.

Have you ever considered that it's the tactics that religion employs that causes it to be so popular, not its truth value?

[holybuckets]

Just did a Google search on the atheist population of the United States... came up with 1.6 - 4%.
Seems to me the atheist have to come up with better arguments... more people are buying the "myth" than they are the "real" stuff your saying.

Or maybe we should start indoctrinating kids.  Or maybe we should adopt a dogmatic belief system.  Or maybe we should kill thousands of people who disagree with us.

Have you ever considered that it's the tactics that religion employs that causes it to be so popular, not its truth value?

religion?????

the Bible is very clear and concise... (oh. I know you atheists are going to have a field day with that one... is a bird a bat? blah blah blah..spew spew spew...)

Where in the bible does it mention religion?

Is the word even in the Bible?

Or did you genius's who claim to have this world figured out invent the term?

[none]

are you trying to say religion doesn't exist?

[xTigerx]

Just did a Google search on the atheist population of the United States... came up with 1.6 - 4%.
Seems to me the atheist have to come up with better arguments... more people are buying the "myth" than they are the "real" stuff your saying.

Or maybe we should start indoctrinating kids.  Or maybe we should adopt a dogmatic belief system.  Or maybe we should kill thousands of people who disagree with us.

Have you ever considered that it's the tactics that religion employs that causes it to be so popular, not its truth value?

religion?????

the Bible is very clear and concise... (oh. I know you atheists are going to have a field day with that one... is a bird a bat? blah blah blah..spew spew spew...)

Where in the bible does it mention religion?

Is the word even in the Bible?

Or did you genius's who claim to have this world figured out invent the term?

It doesn't matter.  Christianity is a religion, no matter how much you try to deny it.

Either way, it employs the tactics I highlighted above, which is why it's successful.  Are you going to address that point, or is dodging all you can do?

[holybuckets]

Just did a Google search on the atheist population of the United States... came up with 1.6 - 4%.
Seems to me the atheist have to come up with better arguments... more people are buying the "myth" than they are the "real" stuff your saying.

Or maybe we should start indoctrinating kids.  Or maybe we should adopt a dogmatic belief system.  Or maybe we should kill thousands of people who disagree with us.

Have you ever considered that it's the tactics that religion employs that causes it to be so popular, not its truth value?

religion?????

the Bible is very clear and concise... (oh. I know you atheists are going to have a field day with that one... is a bird a bat? blah blah blah..spew spew spew...)

Where in the bible does it mention religion?

Is the word even in the Bible?

Or did you genius's who claim to have this world figured out invent the term?

It doesn't matter.  Christianity is a religion, no matter how much you try to deny it.

No, no matter how much YOU may deny it!

[xTigerx]

Just did a Google search on the atheist population of the United States... came up with 1.6 - 4%.
Seems to me the atheist have to come up with better arguments... more people are buying the "myth" than they are the "real" stuff your saying.

Or maybe we should start indoctrinating kids.  Or maybe we should adopt a dogmatic belief system.  Or maybe we should kill thousands of people who disagree with us.

Have you ever considered that it's the tactics that religion employs that causes it to be so popular, not its truth value?

religion?????

the Bible is very clear and concise... (oh. I know you atheists are going to have a field day with that one... is a bird a bat? blah blah blah..spew spew spew...)

Where in the bible does it mention religion?

Is the word even in the Bible?

Or did you genius's who claim to have this world figured out invent the term?

It doesn't matter.  Christianity is a religion, no matter how much you try to deny it.

No, no matter how much YOU may deny it!

See my edit above:

"Either way, it employs the tactics I highlighted above, which is why it's successful.  Are you going to address that point, or is dodging all you can do?"

I'm not going to go into a discussion on whether Christianity is a religion or not.  Those deluded into thinking it isn't aren't going to change their mind.  Please address the relevant point.

[holybuckets]

Just did a Google search on the atheist population of the United States... came up with 1.6 - 4%.
Seems to me the atheist have to come up with better arguments... more people are buying the "myth" than they are the "real" stuff your saying.

Or maybe we should start indoctrinating kids.  Or maybe we should adopt a dogmatic belief system.  Or maybe we should kill thousands of people who disagree with us.


Christianity doesn't need any "tactics" to be successful.. That was proven on the cross... let's see an atheist do that!

Have you ever considered that it's the tactics that religion employs that causes it to be so popular, not its truth value?

religion?????

the Bible is very clear and concise... (oh. I know you atheists are going to have a field day with that one... is a bird a bat? blah blah blah..spew spew spew...)

Where in the bible does it mention religion?

Is the word even in the Bible?

Or did you genius's who claim to have this world figured out invent the term?

It doesn't matter.  Christianity is a religion, no matter how much you try to deny it.

No, no matter how much YOU may deny it!

See my edit above:

"Either way, it employs the tactics I highlighted above, which is why it's successful.  Are you going to address that point, or is dodging all you can do?"

I'm not going to go into a discussion on whether Christianity is a religion or not.  Those deluded into thinking it isn't aren't going to change their mind.  Please address the relevant point.

[xTigerx]

^is there a response in that?  If there is, I can't find it.  Can you fix the quote or re-post your response please?

edit: nevermind, I found it.  Learn to use the quote function please.

Christianity doesn't need any "tactics" to be successful.. That was proven on the cross... let's see an atheist do that!

History begs to differ.

[Azdgari]

Bookmark.

[Tealeaf]

(Yaay!  I didn't even mention Jesus in my explanation! [I'm responding as I read])

Ha, your explanation of the Trinity (or 2/3s of it) made me smile.  You're not going to like this answer, but, as much as I love logic, there comes a point when you have to accept that you need faith.  That said, I will try to explain as much as possible.  First, you're taking this out of context.  You can't just pull one thing out (try avoiding fallacies such as this please).  It might be easier for me just to start at the beginning and explain everything versus this skip-over-half-of-the-Book thing.  God made people w/ the ability to choose.  He wanted to have people He could love and that would love Him.  I don't know about you, but I would want someone choose to love me, and not have him love me only because I'm making him.  Same deal w/ God.  So, people unfortunately didn't choose God.  They chose what God had defined as "sin".  There was the same deal w/ the angels and some of them *cough satin cough* also chose sin.  So, since satin "tricked" them into sin, he got them.  Punishment for sin was death and hell.  Couple thousand years later, God sent Jesus (half God, half man) to not sin, yet still die and go to hell to take the place of sinners.  Now we don't have to go to hell.
So, that's why He did it.  I get what you're trying to say about like, but why would He die because of His own rules, right?  I have a question. lol.  Have you ever read/watched Chronicles of Narnia, because they explain lots of this quite well...
In the end, God is so infinitely more than I am, so I can't know exactly what went through His brain... and neither can YOU.

If you have any questions/critiques/etc, feel free; I tried my best to stay on topic (I think I did, right?)

"if you are a Christian attempting to rationalize this, stay ON TOPIC, keep at least some sort of constant stream of thought and do not pull things out of where."  In return, please avoid using logical fallacies (contextomy).  Thanks! 

If god makes a creation with the ability to love, it's the same fucking thing in the end as making a creation that automatically loves him. If god were actually real, who would turn against him and why? Very very FEW people. But guess what, in the bible they do it because....it's in the bible and the bible does not contain a whole lot of logical consistancy. In the modern world, ie. today, the god of the bible behaves exactly as if, golly gee, he DOESN'T EXIST. Why the change of heart if people are just getting worse? Lame, very lame. Plus, what else is god up to if we are a lost cause? The Satin thing makes even less sense. Why does god allow Satin to continue ot exist or exist in the first place....or hell to exist. Never mind. Ignore this. It's not my point at all.

The first half of that rant is not important. Not to mention it was still a very lame excuse for the incest, murder, genocide, rape, etc. in the OT. But ok ok, let's just say my mind has been molded to think that is ok and I accept the OT a totally moral and sensible....

So....I need faith eh? Oh I'd love to have faith and boy would I take that leap if not for the observation that....there's nothing to have faith in.

And the next most popular word in the Christian vocabulary: context. Look buddy, I know what the trinity is and I'm not taking what is implied by the Jesus story out of context. Please show me how it's out of context....

Again here we go with the 'everybody has the ability to choose' thing. Great great. So god makes everybody with the ability to choose and love him or not. First, why does god need to experience or be the recipient of the utterly human experience of love? Second, why does god not just make a being that would not be spoiled by being pre-programmed to be his friend and pal? Third, why does god bother with free will supposedly, if we still have to obey him to get the good side of things? Forth, why does god seem to have all these HUMAN weaknesses and emotions (numero uno: love)?

You don't know about me....but you can speak for how you would feel if you were god....but then neither you nor I know what's going on in gods "brain"? (eggs, sunnyside up?) How hypocritical of you. How hypocritical of all you Christians to say you can't even begin to understand your mysterious god yet still have the balls to offer up even the slightest explanation of what he wants....

NOW TO THE REAL POINT:

All you did was smirk and then go off to dribble some of your stories on me. I know them. I know what they're all about. I don't need you to explain them to me again.

How about I make my point in a different manner:

I buy you some nachos with cheese (I HATE nachos) and give them to you because I'm just that nice. I then turn my back and continue watching Ghostbusters. I give you no instructions on eating the nachos, I just let you be....but don't spill any cheese on my damn carpet. I also give you switch-blade. So, after the first bite, you spill cheese on my carpet. I let it fly. After the second bite, you turn around with the switch-blade and stab me in the spine. Damn I'm real pissed now. But I'm such a nice guy, and I always want you to have nachos to eat even though I know you'll spill cheese on my fucking carpet and plunge metal into my back. So now I want to forgive you for all you have done, so that you will have nachos forever more. I go out on the town and pick up this 18 year old chick on her way home from the movies with her friends. I'm so fucking hot she's glued to me right away. I knock this chick up. 9 months later, out pops what is now my son. I push this chick aside, fuck her and her feelings, she's just a woman. I give you my son. You take him in one hand, switch-blade in the other. I can totally see all this infront of me. You stab my son to death infront of me with the knife I gave you. You are now forgiven. I love you man. It was a long journey, but now I can finally forgive you for spilling chease on my carpet and stabbing me in the spine. Because you killed my only son.

For real, when you forgive someone, can't you just like you know, forgive them? Why do you have to have your son murdered by the people you want to forgive?

My analogy there was only part helpful to my point. It fails to highlight the even greater absurdity the senario brings on when GOD is me in the story and all his abilities are taken into account.

THE REAL POINT PART TWO:

Jesus undeniabley has something to do with god right? Something higher than the rest of us. Jesus has the most faith in his own religion because balls to bones, if anyone knows it's true, Jesus the Christ(ian) bloody well does. In fact he doesn't have 'faith' when he exists, he KNOWS without a doubt. And so does god.

So the messiah, prophesized and SENT ("sent" conveys a degree of PLANNING) to die to save us all is sacrificing what again? What's Jesus sacrificing? He knows he's going to die. He knows he's the son of god. He knows he's going to heaven....even if he has to "spend a couple days in hell"....which is a walk in the park if you're fucking Jesus and you know all will be well. Oh and by the way, "hell" varies in explantion from simple 'total absence of god' to literal 'pit/lake of fire'.... Well, Jesus IS lord so the mild definition can't apply. Jesus can heal and do all sorts of other miraculous stuff so a literal pit of fire is no biggy. Doesn't matter anyway, still not the point.

We are flawed and need to be forgiven. So Jesus comes down, does some wierd shit, says a couple nice things and then we kill him. Actually he doesn't "come down".... He spills out of a vagina like you know, every other human born before that. Now all the sudden god doesn't have to punish us.....because we killed him in human form. Ok, that plan doesn't make any sense. But why does the fact that god did that in the first place make any sense? If he wanted to forgive us, why not just do it? How does us killing his son display love any better? Why does love have to be a factor anyway? Expressing love is just as HUMAN and desiring it. Not that this matters because....

God has done nothing but draw a giant pointless circle with the Jesus story. He prophesizes a messiah, sends that messiah and 'feels good' about what that messiah "did". The point of it all is so we, also gods creation and plan, now don't have to suffer AT GODS hand because we fucked up and broke his rules.

Than factor in the time periods, the events that are said to take place, the fact that if god "doesn't keep his word", who's he being true to?, the idea that everyone has free will yet god has a plan and part of that plan included a human killing Jesus, the fac that god does not interact with humans in any way such as displayed in the bible now, the fact it's supposedly been 2000 years since the Jesus complex unfolded and it's still supposed to mean anything today, etc. etc. etc. etc.

Explanations? (on the topic of the Jesus complex) I know I went a bit off a first there but that was a response to something already off topic. Please stay on the Jesus complex topic.

[Hermes]

Tealeaf, well said.

[Tealeaf]

The questions raised about the Trinity in the two paragraphs bordered by an asterisk are valid and, from my perspective, unanswerable. 

For me, I believe the Bible is a collection of writings trying to explain what it is like to know or experience God.  I also believe God exists.  Can I prove these beliefs are correct?  No.  Should I expect others to agree with my belief? No.  Could my beliefs be totally false? Yes. 

This and other atheist websites as well as theist websites have taught me it is silly to argue a subjective belief as though it is an objective fact. 

As always,

OldChurchGuy

Why though? Why bother believing in this? What hope can you attain from it? Is it really all just fear of death or what?

If the bible is what it is like to experience god, why is it so fucked up? Why has there never been a book that describes the experience of that god since the bible? If all religous texts are an attempt to "experience god", then why can't I write a book, bury it in the sand for 100 years, have it dug up and treated with respect? I could do that actually. But you people sitting here right now, would know the truth and see how shallow it would be to treat the text that way in 100 years.

Don't get me wrong, I'd much prefer religious people be more like you if we have to have religion.... But still. What about your kids? If you're honest enough about your beliefs, are you honest enough to raise your kids the way I was raised....ie. very much a hands-off appraoch on religion?

[OldChurchGuy]

The questions raised about the Trinity in the two paragraphs bordered by an asterisk are valid and, from my perspective, unanswerable. 

For me, I believe the Bible is a collection of writings trying to explain what it is like to know or experience God.  I also believe God exists.  Can I prove these beliefs are correct?  No.  Should I expect others to agree with my belief? No.  Could my beliefs be totally false? Yes. 

This and other atheist websites as well as theist websites have taught me it is silly to argue a subjective belief as though it is an objective fact. 

As always,

OldChurchGuy

Why though? Why bother believing in this? What hope can you attain from it? Is it really all just fear of death or what?

If the bible is what it is like to experience god, why is it so f**ked up? Why has there never been a book that describes the experience of that god since the bible? If all religous texts are an attempt to "experience god", then why can't I write a book, bury it in the sand for 100 years, have it dug up and treated with respect? I could do that actually. But you people sitting here right now, would know the truth and see how shallow it would be to treat the text that way in 100 years.

Don't get me wrong, I'd much prefer religious people be more like you if we have to have religion.... But still. What about your kids? If you're honest enough about your beliefs, are you honest enough to raise your kids the way I was raised....ie. very much a hands-off appraoch on religion?

Regarding the first set of questions, as stated in other posts I believe God exists due to my understanding of various experiences in my life.  I interpret them as evidence of God but realize they can be explained as random chance working in my favor, coincidence (presuming there is a difference between random chance and coincidence), or a psychological reaction to a given event.  I have come to the crossroads of choosing to stay a theist or embracing atheism more than once in my life.  Each time I do not find liberation or relief with atheism but emptiness instead.  Yes, the emptiness is subjective and I acknowledge that.  But that is where I am right now in my life.

I don't know why the Bible is so f**cked up.  There are books and stories I would like to either edit or delete.  However, what I think should be edited or deleted may be of great help to someone else.  For example, I think the greatest single book in the Bible is Ecclesiastes (part of the Hebrew Bible wisdom literature).  Many other Christians would choose one of the Gospels or Revelation.   Who is right?

Through the centuries numerous people have written letters and books describing their experience with God.  Augustine wrote "Confessions" and "The City of God", for example.  The reason they are not part of the NT Canon is that around the 4th century CE there was a consensus the NT writings in the Bible were the official writings representing the church. 

As I understand it, the impetus for this was the fact there were a number of texts floating around particularly by Gnostic authors which had different understandings / insights.  Since Christianity had now become officially acceptable due to Constantine the question from many quarters was "Just which writings are to be read and which are to be ignored?".  As a result, the canon was established. 

There is no reason you can't write a book, bury it for 100 years, then have others read it.  Some people may find it inspiring and insightful.  Others may not be as impressed with it.  And others may reject it out right.  A parallel might be with Joseph Smith and his alleged translation of various plates which became the Book of Mormon.  (I use the word "alleged" because I know of no way to prove or disprove Smith's story short of creating a time machine).   

Regarding my children, my wife and I have brought them up in the church but have not attempted to force a specific theology upon them.  I suppose it would be characterized as a "light hands on" allowing them the freedom to explore and find their own theology.  Now that they are adults it has changed from "light hands on" to "hands off".  I resolved some time back that I would support them if they decided atheism was the best fit for them.  I decided I would do my best to respect that decision as their embracing or rejecting theism is not as important as my love for them. 

Thank you for finding me a "preferred theist".  I truly enjoy the discussions as it helps me define my theism and also helps to demonstrate that not all theists are dogmatic people intent on converting all to their particular brand of theism.

Enough rambling.

OldChurchGuy

[Airyaman]

religion?????

the Bible is very clear and concise... (oh. I know you atheists are going to have a field day with that one... is a bird a bat? blah blah blah..spew spew spew...)

Where in the bible does it mention religion?

Is the word even in the Bible?

Or did you genius's who claim to have this world figured out invent the term?

How many more Christians will we get on this site who don't know their bible? Tis sad.

Act 25:19  Rather they had certain points of dispute with him about their own religion and about a certain Jesus, who was dead, but whom Paul asserted to be alive.

Act 26:5  They have known for a long time, if they are willing to testify, that according to the strictest party of our religion I have lived as a Pharisee.

Jas 1:26  If anyone thinks he is religious and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his heart, this person's religion is worthless.
Jas 1:27  Religion that is pure and undefiled before God, the Father, is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world.

[Nam]

When confronted with the horrific events of the OT, many Christians either choose to igrnore them or attempt to explain them in a piss poor manner that always contradicts itself or one of the basic teachings of the faith.

They contradict themselves? I wonder where they learned to do that?

Thing is, many so called Christians don't even read the bible and simply take the word of anyone pretending to be wise on the subject. First, you need to actually read the damn thing, through and through.

I find this to be more true than not. When I was a Christian, I may have owned a Bible, and I may have taken it with me to Church just like so many other people my age, or even older but barely any of us actually cracked it open and read it. What was the point? The guy at the front of the Church was going to read it to us, or our "teacher" in Sunday School was going to read it. All we needed to know was the basic things of the Bible, which we all knew 'cause it was crammed in our brains over and over again. And, the Church's that I went to (I'd say I went to about 5 in my lifetime, all Baptist) only read from certain books in the Bible, and only those books. They never read from the entirety of the Bible? And why? Because they either found those parts to be unsuitable to read (which why should it be if it's God's word?) 'cause there were children in the room or they didn't read from those because they didn't want to bring a disparaging light to the message they were sending. It was as if they stuck the Songs of Solomon under the mattress with the Playboys and Penthouse mags. And, Revelation? They barely read anything from Revelation. I'm sure there are other books but those two I remember never hearing or being told to read anything about.

This god has emotions just like any mortal man. Why?

"His" name is "Jealous".

Why this intricate, diabolical plan? Why does all-powerful god have to do this and even if he did, why is it a sacrifice and how does it change anything? Again, we have god killing himself, for himself, to pay for a punishment that would be carried out by himself, on his creations that he created....by himself.*

I always wondered that, going with the OT, if what the Jews stated then as Jesus not being the Messiah, and that the Messiah has yet to come, does this make Jesus the "Anti-Christ" or would it make the Messiah who has yet to come be the "Anti-Christ"?

Anyway, going with the quote above: it's not really "sacrifice" if it was planned beforehand from every point possible. Can you really sacrifice something that will exist afterward? I think there'd been more or an actual sacrifice if Jesus just died, and didn't resurrect. That would be sacrifice, to a degree.

Couple this with the fact that the bible hardly teaches anything moral and you can piece together why Chrisitanity is just another piece of fiction created by primitive men.

I believe the Bible teaches many things on a moral level however I feel they dilute it with too much compromise of ones soul to make that morality seem clear and just based on the "laws" one have to obey to actually make that morality into more than what it actually is.

-Nam

[Nam]

Hi!
In regards to the Abraham killing his son thing, you must first realize that all life belongs to God, thus He can ask for any life He wants.  Second, it was not wrong for Abraham to start killing his son because God asked him to.  "Thou shalt have no other gods before Me," means that we shouldn't put anything above God, so if God asks for your son, you give it to Him.

My parents created me. Does this mean I belong to them, and if they ask for my first born child, I have to give my child to them? Does this mean, if they tell me to kill my first born child, do I have to do it? I mean, they created me, I am their property by this logic. I have to do what they say. I have to "Honor my Father and Mother". It's the same thing. Just because "God" created everyone doesn't mean "God" has a right to ask those people to commit heinous crimes, even in God's name.

Ha, your explanation of the Trinity (or 2/3s of it) made me smile.  You're not going to like this answer, but, as much as I love logic, there comes a point when you have to accept that you need faith.

Faith is not Logical.

-Nam

[Tealeaf]

Regarding the first set of questions, as stated in other posts I believe God exists due to my understanding of various experiences in my life.  I interpret them as evidence of God but realize they can be explained as random chance working in my favor, coincidence (presuming there is a difference between random chance and coincidence), or a psychological reaction to a given event.  I have come to the crossroads of choosing to stay a theist or embracing atheism more than once in my life.  Each time I do not find liberation or relief with atheism but emptiness instead.  Yes, the emptiness is subjective and I acknowledge that.  But that is where I am right now in my life.

I don't know why the Bible is so f**cked up.  There are books and stories I would like to either edit or delete.  However, what I think should be edited or deleted may be of great help to someone else.  For example, I think the greatest single book in the Bible is Ecclesiastes (part of the Hebrew Bible wisdom literature).  Many other Christians would choose one of the Gospels or Revelation.   Who is right?

Through the centuries numerous people have written letters and books describing their experience with God.  Augustine wrote "Confessions" and "The City of God", for example.  The reason they are not part of the NT Canon is that around the 4th century CE there was a consensus the NT writings in the Bible were the official writings representing the church. 

As I understand it, the impetus for this was the fact there were a number of texts floating around particularly by Gnostic authors which had different understandings / insights.  Since Christianity had now become officially acceptable due to Constantine the question from many quarters was "Just which writings are to be read and which are to be ignored?".  As a result, the canon was established. 

There is no reason you can't write a book, bury it for 100 years, then have others read it.  Some people may find it inspiring and insightful.  Others may not be as impressed with it.  And others may reject it out right.  A parallel might be with Joseph Smith and his alleged translation of various plates which became the Book of Mormon.  (I use the word "alleged" because I know of no way to prove or disprove Smith's story short of creating a time machine).   

Regarding my children, my wife and I have brought them up in the church but have not attempted to force a specific theology upon them.  I suppose it would be characterized as a "light hands on" allowing them the freedom to explore and find their own theology.  Now that they are adults it has changed from "light hands on" to "hands off".  I resolved some time back that I would support them if they decided atheism was the best fit for them.  I decided I would do my best to respect that decision as their embracing or rejecting theism is not as important as my love for them. 

Thank you for finding me a "preferred theist".  I truly enjoy the discussions as it helps me define my theism and also helps to demonstrate that not all theists are dogmatic people intent on converting all to their particular brand of theism.

Enough rambling.

OldChurchGuy

I realize it can be 'empty' when viewed from the outside. It literally means nothing. It puts it all on you to make something out of your life. Being an atheist is the furthest thing you can get from religion pretty much. It's too bad you were probably raised within a religion....we know which one. It molds your mind into thinking a certain way and it's very hard to let go. It's a struggle I can never know but I wish you good luck in figuring it out. It takes a lot of guts to release something so big, so old.

This history of the bible is an interesting thing. It's also a very large nail in the coffin for Christianity for me. (and I'm scared to see it's ignored by so many other people) It's been altered and changed so many times it's just not worth the credibility it's given. Especially since it has been altered to fit the purpose of those in power numerous times. It's existence has been mostly within the time period that men wrote things out word for word to make copies. How can anyone think that's reliable in the least? Hell, I'm using a keyboard and looking at an LCD screen and I still make errors. Try writing over a thousand pages by hand.... That's just the naked chance for "error". Then factor in the motivations behind those doing the copying, those jabbing them in the back with a rod and those the copy has been inspired by.... It's just not a reliable book in any sense. It reads like a complete fairy tale if you're like me and just decided to pick it up one day and read some of it having never really been told to think anything other of it.

Joseph Smith is a polished turd of an example of being able to bury a book and have it respected. How anyone can be Mormon is beyond me. As if the content is not absurd enough, the way it all came to be should say something. It made for a perfect South Park episode where all they did once again was illustrate a religion exactly how it is and it was pure comedy gold. Exept afterwords I cry to sleep or pound a few in despare of humanity.

Hm, well not focing a specific theology on them is good. Still, isn't just being in a church kinda narrowing it down? It could be a lot worse so thank you for being that easy on them. Are they atheists now or just not concerned with religion or right into it or what? I'm glad you chose love above all else. It's what my parents did for me and it's what all parents should do. Anything else is just stupid. My mom is still a theist technically, though a non-church-going or really anything to do with it regularly, one. But I can still sort of see a bit of hurt in her eyes when I go on an atheistic rant. Despite that, she still was pretty much hands off raising me. I recall I was read some story book about a baby Jesus character with pictures and stuff which I later found out was a bible story....but at the time, that's all I took it as, a story, like any other as it is.

Anyway, I can't really talk too much on raising kids. All I can say is that my parents, despite some flaws (no ones perfect), did the best job I've ever seen raising at leas their first born kid (me). And that's by no means an 'I'm great', 'blow my own horn statement' (my fuck ups are my fault). It's one of congradualations to my parents. I should tell them that one day.

[LogicalChristian]

Oh look at all of this I get to reply to!  Excellent!   
If only I had time to answer more ... 

All you did was smirk and then [...]

I didn't smirk.  I smiled.  I am an extremely good-natured, happy kind of person.  You spoke of the Trinity and tried to make them seem ridiculous.  Had I known nothing of Christianity, after reading your description I would have thought the Trinity to be ridiculous as well.  I smiled because it was amusing (as in, I would have laughed, but it wasn't that funny).  I meant it as a compliment; I'm sorry it was taken otherwise.

I do have a question though.  Everything I am is founded on Christianity.  My life revolves around it.  Here I am happily debating, not at all angered that you are saying my very core of life does not exist, yet you are having to ** out the f word because you are getting so upset.  Why does it upset you so much?  Is it just because you think it's stupid?  Otherwise, I don't see why it even affects you.  According to you, when we die, nothing is going to happen, so what is there to be so mad about?  And I find it interesting that Christianity gets picked on the most.  The Jews and Muslims also have the Pentateuch, yet they don't get argued against half as much.  Some would say that it is the work of the devil... (but I'm not saying that here because I don't want to open that can of worms - it was pure speculation, nothing I would base an argument on).

I buy you some nachos with cheese (I HATE nachos) and give them to you because I'm just that nice. I then turn my back and continue watching Ghostbusters. I give you no instructions on eating the nachos, I just let you be....but don't spill any cheese on my damn carpet. I also give you switch-blade. So, after the first bite, you spill cheese on my carpet. I let it fly. After the second bite, you turn around with the switch-blade and stab me in the spine. Damn I'm real pissed now. But I'm such a nice guy, and I always want you to have nachos to eat even though I know you'll spill cheese on my f**king carpet and plunge metal into my back. So now I want to forgive you for all you have done, so that you will have nachos forever more. I go out on the town and pick up this 18 year old chick on her way home from the movies with her friends. I'm so f**king hot she's glued to me right away. I knock this chick up. 9 months later, out pops what is now my son. I push this chick aside, f**k her and her feelings, she's just a woman. I give you my son. You take him in one hand, switch-blade in the other. I can totally see all this infront of me. You stab my son to death infront of me with the knife I gave you. You are now forgiven. I love you man. It was a long journey, but now I can finally forgive you for spilling chease on my carpet and stabbing me in the spine. Because you killed my only son.

For real, when you forgive someone, can't you just like you know, forgive them? Why do you have to have your son murdered by the people you want to forgive?

My analogy there was only part helpful to my point. It fails to highlight the even greater absurdity the senario brings on when GOD is me in the story and all his abilities are taken into account.

This is what I meant by you taking things out of context.  You're taking some main points, but you're not including everything.  It's like if a Christian were to say, "Yeah, see that flower?  An evolutionist will tell you that tomorrow it might decide to become an elephant."  See how I'm leaving out a stuff?

A better analogy would be...
You want a motorcycle, but can't afford one.  I own a motorcycle dealership, so you come and lease one from me.  We make up a contract, and you agree to pay $50 per month in return for the use of the cycle.  1st month, you make the payment and we're all happy.  2nd month, you don't.  I call you up, "Hey, you missed your payment."  "Sorry, I just can't afford it this month..." "Okay, okay, I'll let it slide this month.  Try to not do it again though..."
Meanwhile, the law is that if you break a contract you go to jail. 
After a few more months of you missing your payment, you come into my office.  After I agree to let you slide another month, there is a knock on the door.  The police barge in.  They heard of the broken contract and have come to take you to jail.  (Hey, I wasn't the one who snitched you out though...).  They grab you and say, "You're under arrest for breaking a contract."  My son (who is co-owner of the dealership) then steps in the room having over heard the conversation.  He says, "No.  Arrest me."
He goes to jail, gets beat up, etc (hey, it's a tough prison in this town) instead of you.

That analogy covers many more of the bases of Christianity.

As for the Jesus Complex Topic, I hope my analogy helped at least explain some of it. 
In saying, "Jesus was a sacrifice for us,"  a synonym for "sacrifice" would be "replacement".  He died and went to hell so we wouldn't have to.  That being said, I would hope it clears up the rest of it.  Yes, He did know He would rise, etc, and yes, God did get His Son back, so it's not so much a sacrifice in the "the act of losing or surrendering something as a penalty for a mistake or fault or failure to perform etc" way, but as a replacement for us.  We sinned so we need to surrender something as a penalty for our mistake, but Jesus surrendered His life and suffered pain for us.  Yes, He got it back, but hockey players can come out of the penalty box and play more right?  Same deal.
If I've ignored anything of your major points, just let me know (I'm trying to do this quickly).

Somewhere way up on the thread somewhere someone said something about God having emotions.  (I'd quote it, but I can't find it...)
It seems that you are looking at it as humans have emotions, and humans are flawed, thus, by God having emotions, He is also flawed.  That is a logical fallacy.  Or are you trying to say that because human emotions are flawed, God's emotions must also be.  Again, logical fallacy.  I think of it as God has perfect emotions; we just have flawed imitation versions of His emotions.  He loves, gets angry, and gets jealous, perfectly.  We love, get angry, and get jealous imperfectly, that's why we run into problems (such as broken hearts, black eyes, and the green monster).

I look forward to hearing your replies!