Author Topic: A Question for Bible believing Christians  (Read 4184 times)

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Offline Airyaman

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Re: A Question for Bible believing Christians
« Reply #87 on: March 25, 2009, 06:56:52 PM »

The Bible is the basis of our faith. If it were not for the bible, we will not know who Jesus, God and the Holy Spirit is…


Wait a sec...if Jesus is alive and speaks to people, why would you need a book to tell you about him?
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Offline tbright

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Re: A Question for Bible believing Christians
« Reply #88 on: March 25, 2009, 09:08:29 PM »
How do we know He didn't address them both?
I don't know. How do you know that Matthew or Mark or Luke didn't have too much wax in their ears and hear it wrong?

Is that your final answer, completely unsupported by any scriptural evidence? So what, god said "Thisyou", really, really fast, or how did that work?

Well, I take the Bible for what it says. Just because one Gospel says one thing and another Gospel says another thing, and if they aren't contradictory, then what's the problem? If it had stated God ONLY said..... then that might present a problem.

Offline Boots

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Re: A Question for Bible believing Christians
« Reply #89 on: March 26, 2009, 08:18:31 AM »

Well, I take the Bible for what it says. Just because one Gospel says one thing and another Gospel says another thing, and if they aren't contradictory, then what's the problem?

Is it a problem when they *are* contradictory?
* Religion: institutionalized superstition, period.

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Re: A Question for Bible believing Christians
« Reply #90 on: March 26, 2009, 08:53:10 AM »
I am a bible believing christian.  I do believe that the Bible is infallible, what fallacies are there in it?  I may be a kid, but to me this is really important and I have been stuying this so that I can understand it better, so that I know what I am following is the truth.  Now, let me ask you a question.  If I could prove to you that there is intelligent design and a creator, would you abandon you athiest and agnostic veiws?? 
how about evolution.
by random chance the trillions of cells in our bodies were made??  Even if you start out with the "simplest" organism, there is now way that could happen.  And if you want to here about real scientist with PhDs, check out this website http://www.creationinfo.com/list.htm
besides, some of the founding fathers of science were, too.  for example
Isaac Newton, Francis Bacon-contributed to formulating the scientific method, Louis Pasture, Robert Boil, Galileo, Gregor Mendel-genetics, Blaise Pascal, James Joule-physics, and so many more.
the truth is, there is so much evidence for a Creator.
I also have a friend who was working on her PhD, when she was looking over the the Table of Elements she relized that all these chemicals could not have come together by random chance.  So without any evangilst or anyone telling her about God, she relized that there was a creator and she researched it came up with Jesus being God's son.
Check out the Institute for Creation Research, it is a institute that has lots of PhD scientists, who research creation. 

Offline Former Believer

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Re: A Question for Bible believing Christians
« Reply #91 on: March 26, 2009, 08:54:12 AM »
The following question is for Christians who believe the Bible is inerrant:  If it could be proved to you that the Bible contains any errors, would you abandon your faith?  Would you acknowledge that you had believed something that wasn't true?

So, if it could be shown to you that the Bible contains any errors, would you remain a Christian? 

Since the Bible, at least the Scriptures in their original languages, are considered the Word of God, then yes. But other than minor copyist problems and translation to English, there are no errors.

What is a copyist "problem"?  Is it a euphemism for "error"?  Can you give an example of such a problem?

Sounds like you are saying there are some "minor" inaccuracies in the Bible.  Correct me if I am wrong.  If there are, it begs the question:  Why would a perfect God provide his people with an imperfect document.  Why would he not guide the entire process to ensure absolute perfection, including the copying of the documents and the translation?  I would think that any work submitted by God would get a grade of "100" not "99". 

And, you didn't answer the question I asked in the OP.  If the Bible contains any errors (and I'll even exclude for the moment the translation and copyist issues you have noted), would you abandon your belief in Christianity?

Still waiting for a response, Tony.
Faith unsubstaniated by the facts equal foolishness

Offline Former Believer

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Re: A Question for Bible believing Christians
« Reply #92 on: March 26, 2009, 09:12:42 AM »
I am a bible believing christian. 

Hi BS, welcome to the forum!

I do believe that the Bible is infallible, what fallacies are there in it?  I may be a kid, but to me this is really important and I have been stuying this so that I can understand it better, so that I know what I am following is the truth.

If you have that attitude, you can't go wrong.  I once was a Bible-believing Christian, too.  Like you, I wanted the truth.  I abandoned my beliefs once I became convinced that Christianity was not the truth.  You can do online searches to find lists of Bible errors and contradictions.  You may wish to check out the skeptics annotated Bible (available online) or evilbible.com.  Or you may wish to read books written by people who do not believe in Christianity.  The key is to get other points of view other than Christian perspectives.  If you visit only Christian websites and listen to arguments made by Christian apologists, it will likely only confirm what you already believe.  

Now, let me ask you a question.  If I could prove to you that there is intelligent design and a creator, would you abandon you athiest and agnostic veiws?? 
how about evolution. by random chance the trillions of cells in our bodies were made??  Even if you start out with the "simplest" organism, there is now way that could happen. 

I once believed exactly as you did.  Again, I would encourage you to research both sides of the issue.  Look at the evidence much like an impartial juror would.  Since you desire to know the truth, I think it will be made known to you if you evaluate things with an open mind.

Yes, if you could prove to me that there was a creator, I certainly would abandon my atheistic/agnostic views.  That would only make sense.

The more I have studied and thought about things, however, the less probable the existence of God, and even more less propable the existence of the Christian God, has become.  Again, welcome to the forum.  
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Offline Vynn

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Re: A Question for Bible believing Christians
« Reply #93 on: March 26, 2009, 01:20:44 PM »
Well, I take the Bible for what it says. Just because one Gospel says one thing and another Gospel says another thing, and if they aren't contradictory, then what's the problem? If it had stated God ONLY said..... then that might present a problem.


The way i see it, you're dodging the issue so that you don't have to be uncomfortable. If god had said both things, you might expect at least one of the gospels to note that he said almost the same thing twice, once to his son and once to the onlookers. That seems like an important detail to have included. As they stand, they read like a clear contradiction. I've heard many sermons based on much less than that.

If you feel as if you've wiggled out of this contradiction, that's fine by me. I trust that you'd find a way to wiggle out of every contradiction, so it's not a surprise. What's important here, isn't that you CAN find a way to wriggle out of admitting the apparent contradiction, but that you MUST.

Offline reynolds

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Re: A Question for Bible believing Christians
« Reply #94 on: March 26, 2009, 01:30:30 PM »
Why do we as Christians insist on worshiping the Bible? Did Jesus tell us that He had to leave us so that the Bible could come and lead us into all truth? Did He ever even mention that there would be an infallible book that we should adhere to without question? If it was perfect, why would we need the Holy Spirit to guide us?

Just do a little digging and abandon your biases. It is not hard to discover that:

The Bible is not inerrant

Most translations are replete with errors that, in some cases, completely obscure the original meaning

Damaging doctrines have been added that malign the nature of God and negate the power of the gospel

All very true, I have dug.

Offline reynolds

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Re: A Question for Bible believing Christians
« Reply #95 on: March 26, 2009, 01:32:23 PM »
tbright, and others, explain this contradiction:

Whom did god address at Jesus' baptism? According to Matthew, god addressed the witnesses, saying, "THIS is my beloved son..." According to Mark and Luke, god addressed Jesus directly, saying, "YOU are my beloved son..."

So, whom did god address at Jesus' baptism, Jesus, or the onlookers?
He did both, he addressed both.

Offline reynolds

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Re: A Question for Bible believing Christians
« Reply #96 on: March 26, 2009, 01:33:41 PM »
First you honestly form a relationship with God and it goes without saying you must believe in Him in the first place to do that. Then..... you ask Him?


Lots and lots of people claim to have done this, and continue to do this, and yet they disagree drastically with each other. They can't all be right. The method obviously fails.
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Offline Agamemnon

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Re: A Question for Bible believing Christians
« Reply #97 on: March 26, 2009, 01:39:31 PM »
tbright, and others, explain this contradiction:

Whom did god address at Jesus' baptism? According to Matthew, god addressed the witnesses, saying, "THIS is my beloved son..." According to Mark and Luke, god addressed Jesus directly, saying, "YOU are my beloved son..."

So, whom did god address at Jesus' baptism, Jesus, or the onlookers?
He did both, he addressed both.

In what post?  You can link to specific posts or just give the reply #.  Each reply has a reply # under the subject.
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Offline Omen

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Re: A Question for Bible believing Christians
« Reply #98 on: March 26, 2009, 01:56:38 PM »
I am a bible believing christian.

I am a human being that doesn't know what a god is or even a necessary condition in which one would be believed.

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  I do believe that the Bible is infallible,

Why would you believe that, if you havn't already presumed it to be true beforehand?

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what fallacies are there in it? 

You believe it is infallible, you cannot accept that there are fallacies within.  What condition would you accept as a contradiction or fallacy in the bible?

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I may be a kid, but to me this is really important and I have been stuying this so that I can understand it better, so that I know what I am following is the truth.

This is the only statement I respect, however I have to question your motivations.  Its clear that you began this journey with the presumption that it is true and your simply appealing to a confirmation bias.  At no point did you start at not knowing what is true and work towards the understanding of what might be true.

Without doing so, how do you know its true at all?

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Now, let me ask you a question.  If I could prove to you that there is intelligent design and a creator, would you abandon you athiest and agnostic veiws?? 

You would have to define 'intelligent design' and 'creator', not to mention 'atheist' and 'agnostic' views, before I could answer the question.

Here is how I perceive the terms you just used:

Intelligent Design: an unscientific label applied to attempts at criticism of existing scientific methodology.  While often called a 'theory', intelligent design doesn't even provide a coherent definition that would allow us to even call it a scientific hypothesis.  It provides no testable mechanism, no claim that can be falsified, no experiment that can be done to test it, and is usually used by people who are generally scientifically illiterate.

Creator: a vague term to replace the word 'god', usually used in the context of presuming that existence is 'created' and thus needs a 'creator'.  ( which is a circular logical fallacy )

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how about evolution.
by random chance

Stop right there.  No evolutionary theory describes anything as simply happening by 'random chance'.

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the trillions of cells in our bodies were made??

No evolutionary theory describes cells just popping out of existence.

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  Even if you start out with the "simplest" organism, there is now way that could happen.

This is an argument from personal incredulity.  It is essentially saying that YOU dont know anyway this could possibly happen, so YOU are going to claim it cannot happen.

What science has to say about the matter is completely different.  Would you like to learn, or would you like to continue making statements about science.. that have nothing to do with what science actually says?  I do not say this to be mean, but I say this to bring out an obvious point.  You've grown up in a culture that demonizes science and fields of study like evolution because it needs to demonize what it views as a threat to the 'faith'.  While this doesn't apply to all christians, it does apply to a significant majority that come here on a day to day basis.  The sad part is that none of it is true, even the stereotypical 'bogey man' of evolution that your pastor or parents told you about - doesn't actually exist.

Its a crisis of faith.. built on the fear of an imaginary monster.

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  And if you want to here about real scientist with PhDs, check out this website http://www.creationinfo.com/list.htm

I recognize some of them.

I also recognize that the vast majority of them have never published any peer review articles in any peer review journals accepted by any national or international credited institute of learning.

Most of them do not actually have any degrees in biology.

Most of them are not involved in any modern research or scientific institutions.

Not to mention that they are greatly outnumbered by actual biologist themselves, by actual scientist that publish actual peer review articles in actual peer review journals about the actual subject they are talking about.

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besides, some of the founding fathers of science were, too.  for example
Isaac Newton, Francis Bacon-contributed to formulating the scientific method, Louis Pasture, Robert Boil, Galileo, Gregor Mendel-genetics, Blaise Pascal, James Joule-physics, and so many more.

Only in the most vague sense, it is likely that not a single one is a 'creationist' in the term you wish to use for most modern creationist.  I also do not care that someone believed something and happened to be smart at the same time.. I can provide an equal list of smart people who do not believe what you believe and be just as right.

This kind of argument is neither convincing nor valid.

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the truth is, there is so much evidence for a Creator.

Thats a claim, you've already made this claim.  Evidence please.

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I also have a friend who was working on her PhD, when she was looking over the the Table of Elements she relized that all these chemicals could not have come together by random chance.

No scientific theory says that, you are lying.  Someone with a PHD level of educational background in physics.. should completely understand the basics behind the formation of matter enough to not make such an idiotic statement.

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  So without any evangilst or anyone telling her about God, she relized that there was a creator and she researched it came up with Jesus being God's son.

Heresay and false premises/conclusions.  Your friend is an idiot.

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Check out the Institute for Creation Research, it is a institute that has lots of PhD scientists, who research creation. 

Actually, very few have scientific credentials in biology or are actual scientist.  Their forte is more marketing and being lawyers.  As an organization I must point out that ICR doesn't actually do any research and has never published any articles in any peer review journal.  All of its money goes to marketing and legal actions, not a single drop actually goes to any kind of lab or research effort.  I wonder why?

Where is this evidence you claimed again?

Why should you be taken seriously, when you lie about science?
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Offline jedweber

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Re: A Question for Bible believing Christians
« Reply #99 on: March 26, 2009, 02:16:54 PM »
Jeez, Omen, you're a little bit harsh, she's a kid, after all.

I do agree with everything you said, except where you called her a "liar."

I think it's more a question of her being lied to. That's what upsets me - there's an massive, organized disinformation campaign going on, and many people are not equipped to see through it or understand that they're being misled.

I would point out to her that ICR is simply not a credible scientific organization, and that all of their misinformation can be seen for what it is by going to a resource like http://www.talkorigins.org/

Offline Omen

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Re: A Question for Bible believing Christians
« Reply #100 on: March 26, 2009, 02:26:07 PM »
Asking someone why they should be believed when they lie is not exactly calling them a liar, regardless if its a child or not.  Did your parents allow you to lie to their faces?

I must also add that it is my opinion that someone is responsible for a lie regardless if they are perpetrating someone elses lie and are simply 'misinformed'.
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Offline alihaymeg

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Re: A Question for Bible believing Christians
« Reply #101 on: March 26, 2009, 11:01:59 PM »
Quote
All very true, I have dug.

Are there any specific issues you have discovered that were surprisingly different than what you had been taught?

You sound like an open minded person.

Check out this link let me know what you think.

http://www.tentmaker.org/


Offline Hunted By A Freak

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Re: A Question for Bible believing Christians
« Reply #102 on: March 27, 2009, 01:35:09 AM »
This topic of this thread is targeted toward Christians who think the Bible is inerrant.  I take it you do not believe scripture to be inerrant?  Please state your stance.
I do consider the bible to be the inerrant word, but what does that constitute regarding it's transmission over the centuries. The bible is fully the word of God and fully the word of man, yeah. What is Jesus referred to as? The Word. What are the characteristics of Jesus? He is fully God and fully man. There are errors in the bible, however they are few in number and consist primarily of insignificant transcriptions. The question I would have for you is "how do you explain the unparalleled unity of the bible"? The fact of the matter is that the bible is overwhelming unified in thought, action, symbolism and character.       
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Sin is a term that implies the existence of a deity.  I became a Christian because I felt that the Bible was the Word of God and that Christianity was true.  Guilt certainly was a large factor in my conversion.
Why did you feel guilty than if no deity exists? You may have already answered this in your response to my rather lengthy discourse on morality. Haven't had a chance to read it yet, remember what my old boss used to say haha... 
Quote
As to "negating their salvation" that presupposes the correctness of your beliefs and is a concern for Christians, not me.  And the issue isn't whether their unwillingness to examine their beliefs critically doesn't undermine Biblical claims, the issue is that these people continue to believe a lie because they won't open their minds and look at the facts.
Apparently this at one time was a question of concern for you, and I would think that it still is. Why else would you be here opposing a belief you once aspired too. I suppose I'm just speculating here, but do you post here because it continues to solidify your belief in non-belief? Please take no offense in my inquiry, none is intended.     
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Confirmation bias is a challenge for everyone, myself included.  However, many of the conclusions that I have drawn about the invalidity of the Bible and Christian theology have come as a result of my own considerations.  In addition, I don't regard the Bible as completely errant.  Some passages make sense and some contain a good deal of wisdom.  I don't reject these because they are logical; I reject the goofy ones. When it comes to assessing biblical contradictions and errors, I try to give Christians the benefit of the doubt if the contradiction or error can reasonably be explained.  When I see skeptics refer to something in the Bible as a contradiction, I often dismiss it as being a contradiction for this reason.
There are thousands of apparent contradictions found in the bible, but the majority of those are higher German critical thinking constructs. Again I would ask how do you explain the unified nature of scripture?
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Regarding atheists "understanding" scripture, it obviously varies on the atheist in question.  It also varies on the theological perspective of the Christian, since their intepretations of scripture vary.  One thing that I am not willing to do is to acknowledge the validity of scripture based on convoluted and far-fetched explanations offered by apologists and Christians.  If a Christian claims I am not "understanding scripture" and then makes their case by supporting it with one of the myriad of lame apologetic excuses frequently made by Christians, I will reject it for its lack of merit.  If a reasonable case can be made in support of their claims, I will consider it.
I agree somewhat strongly on your comment regarding "varying Christian interpretations". I must confess that I'm mostly unimpressed with some Christian interpretness, hey I'm a poet and I didn't even know it. Sorry my alter ego is trying to break free. I used to let it run free when I was posting on AT&T, but as you can see it's getting the best of me!............Okay, I'm back and in control. Whenever I have encountered a goofy Christian interpretation I just look to the bible. The best way to interpret scripture is with scripture and I find that many Christians don't fully comprehend that concept. I have been guilty of this vary same thing, but the great thing about those who continually seek out biblical truths is that they eventually end up finding them.     
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When I speak of errors, I am referring more to factual, historical, and scientific errors, as these are not as subjective as the philosophical and ethical problems that I have with the Bible and Christianity. If my intepretation is fraught with errors, I certainly should reconsider my current beliefs.
So would you say that the bible is more or less historically accurate taken as a whole?
Also would you say that the bible is more or less scientifically accurate taken as a whole?
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Offline Former Believer

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Re: A Question for Bible believing Christians
« Reply #103 on: March 29, 2009, 03:15:48 AM »
The following question is for Christians who believe the Bible is inerrant:  If it could be proved to you that the Bible contains any errors, would you abandon your faith?  Would you acknowledge that you had believed something that wasn't true?

So, if it could be shown to you that the Bible contains any errors, would you remain a Christian? 

Since the Bible, at least the Scriptures in their original languages, are considered the Word of God, then yes. But other than minor copyist problems and translation to English, there are no errors.

What is a copyist "problem"?  Is it a euphemism for "error"?  Can you give an example of such a problem?

Sounds like you are saying there are some "minor" inaccuracies in the Bible.  Correct me if I am wrong.  If there are, it begs the question:  Why would a perfect God provide his people with an imperfect document.  Why would he not guide the entire process to ensure absolute perfection, including the copying of the documents and the translation?  I would think that any work submitted by God would get a grade of "100" not "99". 

And, you didn't answer the question I asked in the OP.  If the Bible contains any errors (and I'll even exclude for the moment the translation and copyist issues you have noted), would you abandon your belief in Christianity?

Still waiting for a response, Tony.

Still waiting for a response, Tony.
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Offline Former Believer

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Re: A Question for Bible believing Christians
« Reply #104 on: March 29, 2009, 10:08:19 AM »
[I do consider the bible to be the inerrant word, but what does that constitute regarding it's transmission over the centuries. The bible is fully the word of God and fully the word of man, yeah...There are errors in the bible, however they are few in number and consist primarily of insignificant transcriptions.

So, the Bible is inerrant, but it contains errors?  How do you know those errors consist of only "insignficant transcriptions?  Why would a perfect God, capable of ensuring the perfect transmission of his Word to future generations allow it to be corrupted by human beings?  Is he a sloppy proof reader?  If human hands were responsible for minor errors and that the entire process wasn't protect entirely by God, how can you be sure that other more significant errors aren't present?

The question I would have for you is "how do you explain the unparalleled unity of the bible"? The fact of the matter is that the bible is overwhelming unified in thought, action, symbolism and character.

Only a Christian who buys hook, line, and sinker into the convoluted explanations offered by pastors, fellow Christians and apologists could come to that conclusion.  The Bible is extremely ununified.  In fact, I think I'll start a separate thread based on your above post to generate discussion on this matter. 

     
Why did you feel guilty than if no deity exists? You may have already answered this in your response to my rather lengthy discourse on morality. Haven't had a chance to read it yet, remember what my old boss used to say haha...

I did address it: http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?action=post;quote=113657;topic=5045.30;num_replies=50;sesc=36a93539bf14cc55aa9c5b3929c7dbb3

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Offline Former Believer

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Re: A Question for Bible believing Christians
« Reply #105 on: March 29, 2009, 11:29:22 AM »
There are thousands of apparent contradictions found in the bible, but the majority of those are higher German critical thinking constructs. Again I would ask how do you explain the unified nature of scripture?

I've never heard the term "german critical thinking constructs" before.  I'm not sure if you are saying that these thousands of "apparent" contradictions can be reconciled by exegesical/hermeneutical considerations, but perhaps you can clarify what type of critical thinking constructs one needs to use when examining these contradictions and perhaps and site a few examples of how using such consructs resolves "apparent" contradictions.  Again, I think this would be the basis for a whole new thread in and of itself.  

Quote from: Former Believer link=topic=5135.msg111901#msg111901
Regarding atheists "understanding" scripture, it obviously varies on the atheist in question.  It also varies on the theological perspective of the Christian, since their intepretations of scripture vary.  One thing that I am not willing to do is to acknowledge the validity of scripture based on convoluted and far-fetched explanations offered by apologists and Christians.  If a Christian claims I am not "understanding scripture" and then makes their case by supporting it with one of the myriad of lame apologetic excuses frequently made by Christians, I will reject it for its lack of merit.  If a reasonable case can be made in support of their claims, I will consider it.
Quote from: Hunted By A Freak link=topic=5135.msg116575#msg116575
I agree somewhat strongly on your comment regarding "varying Christian interpretations"... The best way to interpret scripture is with scripture and I find that many Christians don't fully comprehend that concept. I have been guilty of this vary same thing, but the great thing about those who continually seek out biblical truths is that they eventually end up finding them.
 
And Christians that disagree with your interpretation of scripture will likewise point to scriptures which make their case.  But the more important issue whic I raised, which you did not address was this: One thing that I am not willing to do is to acknowledge the validity of scripture based on convoluted and far-fetched explanations offered by apologists and Christians.  If a Christian claims I am not "understanding scripture" and then makes their case by supporting it with one of the myriad of lame apologetic excuses frequently made by Christians, I will reject it for its lack of merit.  If a reasonable case can be made in support of their claims, I will consider it.

Quote from: Hunted By A Freak link=topic=5135.msg116575#msg116575
So would you say that the bible is more or less historically accurate taken as a whole?
Also would you say that the bible is more or less scientifically accurate taken as a whole?

I haven't investigated how much of the Bible is historically or scientifically accurate.  But that isn't the point.  A book written allegedly written by God shouldn't be "more or less" accurate.  It should be completely accurate.  Remember, the OP of this thread was addressed to Christians who believe that the Bible is inerrant.  
Faith unsubstaniated by the facts equal foolishness

Offline bartly

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Re: A Question for Bible believing Christians
« Reply #106 on: March 29, 2009, 11:40:12 AM »
There are thousands of apparent contradictions found in the bible, but the majority of those are higher German critical thinking constructs. Again I would ask how do you explain the unified nature of scripture?

I've never heard the term "german critical thinking constructs" before.  I'm not sure if you are saying that these thousands of "apparent" contradictions can be reconciled by exegesical/hermeneutical considerations, but perhaps you can clarify what type of critical thinking constructs one needs to use when examining these contradictions and perhaps and site a few examples of how using such consructs resolves "apparent" contradictions.  Again, I think this would be the basis for a whole new thread in and of itself.  

Quote from: Former Believer link=topic=5135.msg111901#msg111901
Regarding atheists "understanding" scripture, it obviously varies on the atheist in question.  It also varies on the theological perspective of the Christian, since their intepretations of scripture vary.  One thing that I am not willing to do is to acknowledge the validity of scripture based on convoluted and far-fetched explanations offered by apologists and Christians.  If a Christian claims I am not "understanding scripture" and then makes their case by supporting it with one of the myriad of lame apologetic excuses frequently made by Christians, I will reject it for its lack of merit.  If a reasonable case can be made in support of their claims, I will consider it.
Quote from: Hunted By A Freak link=topic=5135.msg116575#msg116575
I agree somewhat strongly on your comment regarding "varying Christian interpretations"... The best way to interpret scripture is with scripture and I find that many Christians don't fully comprehend that concept. I have been guilty of this vary same thing, but the great thing about those who continually seek out biblical truths is that they eventually end up finding them.
 
And Christians that disagree with your interpretation of scripture will likewise point to scriptures which make their case.  But the more important issue whic I raised, which you did not address was this: One thing that I am not willing to do is to acknowledge the validity of scripture based on convoluted and far-fetched explanations offered by apologists and Christians.  If a Christian claims I am not "understanding scripture" and then makes their case by supporting it with one of the myriad of lame apologetic excuses frequently made by Christians, I will reject it for its lack of merit.  If a reasonable case can be made in support of their claims, I will consider it.

Quote from: Hunted By A Freak link=topic=5135.msg116575#msg116575
So would you say that the bible is more or less historically accurate taken as a whole?
Also would you say that the bible is more or less scientifically accurate taken as a whole?

I haven't investigated how much of the Bible is historically or scientifically accurate.  But that isn't the point.  A book written allegedly written by God shouldn't be "more or less" accurate.  It should be completely accurate.  Remember, the OP of this thread was addressed to Christians who believe that the Bible is inerrant.  


It's funny, whenever I am preached to I keep quite the fact I know a lot of scripture.  I have said it before I am a Bible skeptic, but I do like the "Good Book" because it's full of nuggets of wisdom. The point you made was very good. If the Bible was written by God, it should be correct from the start to finish.
 

Offline tbright

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Re: A Question for Bible believing Christians
« Reply #107 on: April 01, 2009, 10:40:03 PM »
The following question is for Christians who believe the Bible is inerrant:  If it could be proved to you that the Bible contains any errors, would you abandon your faith?  Would you acknowledge that you had believed something that wasn't true?

So, if it could be shown to you that the Bible contains any errors, would you remain a Christian? 
Since the Bible, at least the Scriptures in their original languages, are considered the Word of God, then yes. But other than minor copyist problems and translation to English, there are no errors.
What is a copyist "problem"?  Is it a euphemism for "error"?  Can you give an example of such a problem?

Sounds like you are saying there are some "minor" inaccuracies in the Bible.  Correct me if I am wrong.  If there are, it begs the question:  Why would a perfect God provide his people with an imperfect document.  Why would he not guide the entire process to ensure absolute perfection, including the copying of the documents and the translation?  I would think that any work submitted by God would get a grade of "100" not "99". 

And, you didn't answer the question I asked in the OP.  If the Bible contains any errors (and I'll even exclude for the moment the translation and copyist issues you have noted), would you abandon your belief in Christianity?

There are some challenges we need to deal with first.
1) A copyist problem cannot be attributed to God. The originals were inspired by God. Errors in copying or translating are not from God.
2) The originals did not have ANY inaccuracies.
3) Since the Bible doesn't contain ANY errors in the originals, asking for an abandonment of Christianity based on errors is a useless hypothetical.

But to explain the "copyist problem," you can read this LINK.

Offline Max Kodan

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Re: A Question for Bible believing Christians
« Reply #108 on: April 01, 2009, 11:05:47 PM »
There are some challenges we need to deal with first.
1) A copyist problem cannot be attributed to God. The originals were inspired by God. Errors in copying or translating are not from God.
2) The originals did not have ANY inaccuracies.
3) Since the Bible doesn't contain ANY errors in the originals, asking for an abandonment of Christianity based on errors is a useless hypothetical.

But to explain the "copyist problem," you can read this LINK.

Are you saying that the translations have no effect on how you view Christianity?  So if the original text is perfect, then even if you learn the religion from later, faulty texts based on the originals, it doesn't matter because the ORIGINAL was perfect?  If the original texts are the perfect ones, but they've been changed and altered to the point that no one can identify the perfect ones anymore, then is there really a religion at all?  Perhaps the religion based on the original, perfect texts could be perfect.  However, if the religion is based on now, as you admit, erroneous and faulty texts, then it's no longer the same religion, and is indeed erroneous and faulty itself. 

So if you'd like to present us with the original, perfect texts which you are apparently basing your personal form of Christianity off of, then maybe we can talk.  If not, then pick your faulty and poorly translated bible.
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Offline tbright

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Re: A Question for Bible believing Christians
« Reply #109 on: April 01, 2009, 11:36:57 PM »
There are some challenges we need to deal with first.
1) A copyist problem cannot be attributed to God. The originals were inspired by God. Errors in copying or translating are not from God.
2) The originals did not have ANY inaccuracies.
3) Since the Bible doesn't contain ANY errors in the originals, asking for an abandonment of Christianity based on errors is a useless hypothetical.

But to explain the "copyist problem," you can read this LINK.

Are you saying that the translations have no effect on how you view Christianity?  So if the original text is perfect, then even if you learn the religion from later, faulty texts based on the originals, it doesn't matter because the ORIGINAL was perfect?  If the original texts are the perfect ones, but they've been changed and altered to the point that no one can identify the perfect ones anymore, then is there really a religion at all?  Perhaps the religion based on the original, perfect texts could be perfect.  However, if the religion is based on now, as you admit, erroneous and faulty texts, then it's no longer the same religion, and is indeed erroneous and faulty itself. 

So if you'd like to present us with the original, perfect texts which you are apparently basing your personal form of Christianity off of, then maybe we can talk.  If not, then pick your faulty and poorly translated bible.

Did you even read the link? An example is listed below from 101 Bible contradictions answered (not that there were 101 contradictions, but that many have been alleged by skeptics as contradictions):

#12  Did Solomon have 40,000 stalls for his horses (1 Kings 4:26), or 4,000 stalls (2 Chronicles 9:25)?

(Category: copyist error, or misunderstood the historical context)

There are a number of ways to answer these puzzling differences. The most plausible is analogous to what we found earlier in challenge numbers five and six above, where the decadal number has been rubbed out or distorted due to constant use.

Others believe that the stalls mentioned in 2 Chronicles were large ones that housed 10 horses each (that is, a row of ten stalls). Therefore 4,000 of these large stalls would be equivalent to 40,000 small ones.

Another commentator maintains that the number of stalls recorded in 1 Kings was the number at the beginning of Solomon's reign, whereas the number recorded in 2 Chronicles was the number of stalls at the end of his reign. We know that Solomon reigned for 40 years; no doubt, many changes occurred during this period. It is quite likely that he reduced the size of the military machine his father David had left him.



Assuming that the number was really supposed to be 40,000 or 4,000 but was a mere copyist error, how would that affect anything? In the South, we'd be content with saying "a bunch".

Offline Agamemnon

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Re: A Question for Bible believing Christians
« Reply #110 on: April 01, 2009, 11:52:27 PM »
There are some challenges we need to deal with first.
1) A copyist problem cannot be attributed to God. The originals were inspired by God. Errors in copying or translating are not from God.

So you are saying that God was pretty much out of the picture totally during the translation process and that's why all the translation issues?

Let's think about that a little-- we are talking about God's single most important holy text here.  God knows that all generations that follow are going to be reliant upon this text for their very salvation.  And you think that God's not going to be a major part of the translation??  You don't think he would "inspire" the translators to guarantee that this most important of texts was translated with absolute perfect accuracy???

I find it hard to believe that God would put so much effort into making the original PERFECT and then totally abandon the translated version.  That doesn't even make sense.  Why would God care so much about the salvation of those that had access to the originals but be totally indifferent about the later versions?

Seriously, Tony, that just doesn't hold water at all and I'm surprised you would even bother dragging that crap out.
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Offline tbright

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Re: A Question for Bible believing Christians
« Reply #111 on: April 02, 2009, 12:00:36 AM »
There are some challenges we need to deal with first.
1) A copyist problem cannot be attributed to God. The originals were inspired by God. Errors in copying or translating are not from God.
So you are saying that God was pretty much out of the picture totally during the translation process and that's why all the translation issues?

Let's think about that a little-- we are talking about God's single most important holy text here.  God knows that all generations that follow are going to be reliant upon this text for their very salvation.  And you think that God's not going to be a major part of the translation??  You don't think he would "inspire" the translators to guarantee that this most important of texts was translated with absolute perfect accuracy???

I find it hard to believe that God would put so much effort into making the original PERFECT and then totally abandon the translated version.  That doesn't even make sense.  Why would God care so much about the salvation of those that had access to the originals but be totally indifferent about the later versions?

Seriously, Tony, that just doesn't hold water at all and I'm surprised you would even bother dragging that crap out.

Tell me how you think you can translate ANY sentence in English to all the languages around the world with utter perfection. Languages have different styles, so clearly translations aren't going to be perfect. Again what does that have to do with #12 above about noting 40,000 rather than 4,000. Who cares? That is the minute detail that we are talking about. You haven't even attempted to hold up any other work in the link to the clarity and astounding accuracy of the Bible over the millenia.

Offline Max Kodan

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Re: A Question for Bible believing Christians
« Reply #112 on: April 02, 2009, 12:10:00 AM »

Tell me how you think you can translate ANY sentence in English to all the languages around the world with utter perfection.

I'm thinking someone like, oh, you know, GOD could do it.

Quote
Languages have different styles, so clearly translations aren't going to be perfect. Again what does that have to do with #12 above about noting 40,000 rather than 4,000. Who cares? That is the minute detail that we are talking about. You haven't even attempted to hold up any other work in the link to the clarity and astounding accuracy of the Bible over the millenia.

Dude, we don't care about a minute detail like that either, though I have to say, there must have been one really inept translator to mess it up on the ten-thousandth scale.

I notice when you responded to my post, you didn't actually respond to it.  You kind of started saying I didn't know what I was talking about, then you drifted off into another conversation entirely.  So, please reread mine, and respond to it properly.  Otherwise, you'll just prove your ignorance, and no one wants that.
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Offline Agamemnon

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Re: A Question for Bible believing Christians
« Reply #113 on: April 02, 2009, 12:15:13 AM »
Tell me how you think you can translate ANY sentence in English to all the languages around the world with utter perfection. Languages have different styles, so clearly translations aren't going to be perfect. Again what does that have to do with #12 above about noting 40,000 rather than 4,000. Who cares? That is the minute detail that we are talking about. You haven't even attempted to hold up any other work in the link to the clarity and astounding accuracy of the Bible over the millenia.

We're talking about God, Tony.  God can do anything.  Especially when it comes to his perfect word and the salvation of all that read it.  Do you really think God would stand by while His word was being corrupted and defiled by ignorant humans, Tony?  Oh no.  This is your almighty creator.  If God wants a perfect translation God will GET a perfect translation.

And now that you admit that you have based your entire faith on a corruption of God's word, how can you possibly claim to know the truth about God?
So far as I can remember, there is not one word in the Gospels in praise of intelligence.  --Bertrand Russell

Offline Agamemnon

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Re: A Question for Bible believing Christians
« Reply #114 on: April 02, 2009, 12:23:05 AM »
Tell me how you think you can translate ANY sentence in English to all the languages around the world with utter perfection. Languages have different styles, so clearly translations aren't going to be perfect. Again what does that have to do with #12 above about noting 40,000 rather than 4,000. Who cares? That is the minute detail that we are talking about. You haven't even attempted to hold up any other work in the link to the clarity and astounding accuracy of the Bible over the millenia.

...And another thing-- how do you know that there are only minor translation errors?  If God was asleep at the wheel on the translated version, there's no telling what all kinds of insanity those uninspired translators might have snuck in there.  Have you done you own translation from the original manuscripts to compare??  Somehow I doubt it.

Wow, you sure walked into a nightmare with this one...
So far as I can remember, there is not one word in the Gospels in praise of intelligence.  --Bertrand Russell

Offline tbright

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Re: A Question for Bible believing Christians
« Reply #115 on: April 02, 2009, 12:25:53 AM »
Tell me how you think you can translate ANY sentence in English to all the languages around the world with utter perfection. Languages have different styles, so clearly translations aren't going to be perfect. Again what does that have to do with #12 above about noting 40,000 rather than 4,000. Who cares? That is the minute detail that we are talking about. You haven't even attempted to hold up any other work in the link to the clarity and astounding accuracy of the Bible over the millenia.
We're talking about God, Tony.  God can do anything.  Especially when it comes to his perfect word and the salvation of all that read it.  Do you really think God would stand by while His word was being corrupted and defiled by ignorant humans, Tony?  Oh no.  This is your almighty creator.  If God wants a perfect translation God will GET a perfect translation.

And now that you admit that you have based your entire faith on a corruption of God's word, how can you possibly claim to know the truth about God?

I have admitted no such thing. Stop putting words in my mouth. I readily admit that there are copyist errors that have ABSOLUTELY no bearing on any of the doctrines therein. And don't forget that God created the languages at the Tower of Babel to confuse their communication, so of course translations will not be perfect. We should learn the original languages if we want to get closer to the absolute truth. Did you forget about that option?