Author Topic: 10 Answers to 10 Questions  (Read 13973 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Aaron123

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2791
  • Darwins +80/-1
  • Gender: Male
Re: 10 Answers to 10 Questions
« Reply #29 on: March 22, 2009, 11:52:34 PM »
Quote
No, I don't want to see anyone killed, I want to see everyone come to repentance and enjoy the promise of eternal life.  Please understand Christians are not sadistic.  We are not behind God yelling Kill Kill Kill!  And God Himself takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked either

God kills millions in the bible, threaten violence all the time, and insist on animal sacrifices.  Were the animals wicked?  Keep in mind, god delights in the "pleasing aroma" of burning flesh.  If god disliked killing so much, he would not demand that most of his laws would be enforced with death, and he would not do a worldwide flood, and he would not demand that every last man, woman, children and animal be killed when his "chosen people" conquer a city.  He would not make a person stubborn just so he could get around to killing all the firtborns in Egypt.  And he most certainly would not demand the death of hundred of animals just so he could smell them being burnt.  Yet, god does all of this.


Quote
David did suffer.  Watching his own child die for a sin he committed must have been worse for him than his own death would have been.  If you are a parent yourself, you'll know what I mean.  "Why didn't God force David to get a divorce?"  A divorce under what grounds?  David married a widow- Bathsheeba.  But of course to make that legally possible, he killed her husband.  But as I just said, he got his comeupins for that one.

I'm just going to ask this question:  If you committed a crime, would it be ok for the court to punish you by killing your innocent child?

If yes, I hope you're not into legislation.

If no, then you're engaging in special pleading.


Quote
the Bible is the Word of God

Prove it.


Quote
I'm disappointed you think it's a retcon.  I thought I did a reasonable job of showing II Samuel 24:1 and I Chronicles 21:1 don't contradict each other.

No you didn't.  You said it was in error in the King James version.  I said I'm not using the King James version.
I've just checked all the english language version on biblegateway, and they all say "goddidit" in that 2 Samuel passage.

Even if it is an error, why hasn't it been corrected?  If it is an error, I would think I would've seen at least one version with the corrected passage on that site.

Quote
When you really come to understand the God of the Bible, you will know that He does not destroy people indiscriminately.  He is patient and warns and pleads with the sinner, but after a while He will take them out- no matter what the pretext or occasion.

I'm wondering what bible you've read.  God kills people for all sort of reason, at one point, he kills 50,000 just because  couple of people looked inside the ark.  Does that make any sort of sense?  Or how about the part where he tells a prophet not to eat and travel on the same road he went through earlier, the prophet is lied to and eats, and then gets killed by a lion that god sent.  God killed a guy just for having a snack.  That makes no sense at all.


Quote
Regarding your quote that even Jesus said he did not come to abolish the old laws, but to fulfill them- You blew me away with that one!  I agree with you. 

I'm......... not understanding why we're in argeement here.  You were trying to say that the OT laws, such as animal sacrifices, do not apply anymore.  I was trying to say that Jesus never did away with those laws.  The quote in question has Jesus saying this flat out.

Or here's another example:

Matthew 15:1-7
Then some Pharisees and teachers of the law came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked, "Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don't wash their hands before they eat!" Jesus replied, "And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? For God said, 'Honor your father and mother' and 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.' But you say that if a man says to his father or mother, 'Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is a gift devoted to God,' he is not to 'honor his father' with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you

Here, Jesus is clearly endorsing one of the Old Testesmant laws that is enforceable by death.  Does that really sound like something god would say if he came to exempt us from OT laws?
« Last Edit: March 22, 2009, 11:56:26 PM by Aaron123 »
Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.

Offline velkyn

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 17212
  • Darwins +346/-19
  • Gender: Female
  • You're wearing the juice, aren't you?"
Re: 10 Answers to 10 Questions
« Reply #30 on: March 23, 2009, 01:16:13 PM »
Quote
Ah, another sadistic Christian who thinks that they are soooo important that God hurts others for their benefit.
And btw, your God set up the rules.  He could have said "believe in me and we're good" but no, he had to have a blood sacrifice to "save" people.
Quote
Velkyn
I just don't think you are fully appreciating the destructive nature of sin, which always results from the transgression of God's law.  When someone breaks that law, somebody always gets hurt- whether emotionally or physically, someone always gets hurt.
Really?  Who is "hurt" when I decide that I don't wish to worship a genocidal God?  The commandments say that's one of the big sins.  Who is hurt if homosexuals have sex?
Quote
In other words, "just believe in me and we're good" just does not work- because under that system somebody is always getting hurt.  Under God's system, no one gets hurt.  That's why the Apostle Paul refers to God's law as being "just and good" (Romans 7:12).
Prove your baseless claim.  Ah, and no one gets "hurt" under God.  Sure they don't.  Women who can't scream loud "enough" when raped are killed for that.  Don't beleive in God and have your children beat to death on rocks and your young virgin daughters raped into submission. 
Quote
Because of the horrible results of sin, and because of the Holiness of God's law, only the death of God's own Son could atone for it.  So yes, a blood sacrifice was necessary to save people.
Your God surely isn't omnipotent as it claims to be if it "can't" do something.  So much for "almighty God". 


"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

http://clubschadenfreude.wordpress.com/

Offline Fridge

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 538
  • Darwins +0/-0
Re: 10 Answers to 10 Questions
« Reply #31 on: March 23, 2009, 01:24:31 PM »
In other words, "just believe in me and we're good" just does not work- because under that system somebody is always getting hurt.  Under God's system, no one gets hurt.  That's why the Apostle Paul refers to God's law as being "just and good" (Romans 7:12).

Ah, what an ignorant statement. Have you studied all of the religious wars of history that have started because of god's system?
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity. " - Martin Luther King Jr.

"He wants us to stop sinning- to stop hurting each other.  And one of the ways we do that is by coming to Jesus and eating His flesh and drinking His blood"
-theist

Offline john 20:29

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 258
  • Darwins +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: 10 Answers to 10 Questions
« Reply #32 on: March 23, 2009, 04:43:48 PM »
Quote
God kills millions in the bible, threaten violence all the time, and insist on animal sacrifices.  Were the animals wicked?  Keep in mind, god delights in the "pleasing aroma" of burning flesh.  If god disliked killing so much, he would not demand that most of his laws would be enforced with death, and he would not do a worldwide flood, and he would not demand that every last man, woman, children and animal be killed when his "chosen people" conquer a city.  He would not make a person stubborn just so he could get around to killing all the firtborns in Egypt.  And he most certainly would not demand the death of hundred of animals just so he could smell them being burnt.  Yet, god does all of this.

I'm wondering what bible you've read.  God kills people for all sort of reason, at one point, he kills 50,000 just because  couple of people looked inside the ark.  Does that make any sort of sense?  Or how about the part where he tells a prophet not to eat and travel on the same road he went through earlier, the prophet is lied to and eats, and then gets killed by a lion that god sent.  God killed a guy just for having a snack.  That makes no sense at all.

Aaron,

I don't know what to keep telling you about this.  I could address each of your points, but I don't think it will make any difference.  All I ask of you is this… if you ever get in a really bad jam some day, don't hesitate to cry out to God.  You will discover He is not the heartless Being you think He is. 


Quote
I'm just going to ask this question:  If you committed a crime, would it be ok for the court to punish you by killing your innocent child?

If yes, I hope you're not into legislation.

If no, then you're engaging in special pleading.

Only the Creator, with power to give life has the right to take it.  So as you might imagine, I don't look kindly on Capital Punishment.

Quote
Quote
the Bible is the Word of God

Prove it.

You know I can't prove it to you, but I have proved it to myself.  My hope is that you will seek Him out for yourself someday and resolve the issue for yourself once and for all.

Quote
No you didn't.  You said it was in error in the King James version.  I said I'm not using the King James version.
I've just checked all the english language version on biblegateway, and they all say "goddidit" in that 2 Samuel passage.

Even if it is an error, why hasn't it been corrected?  If it is an error, I would think I would've seen at least one version with the corrected passage on that site.

What I was trying to tell you in a round about way is that in the original Hebrew text, those two passages of scripture don't contradict each other.

Quote
Quote
Regarding your quote that even Jesus said he did not come to abolish the old laws, but to fulfill them- You blew me away with that one!  I agree with you.
 

I'm......... not understanding why we're in argeement here.  You were trying to say that the OT laws, such as animal sacrifices, do not apply anymore.  I was trying to say that Jesus never did away with those laws.  The quote in question has Jesus saying this flat out.

Or here's another example:

Matthew 15:1-7
Then some Pharisees and teachers of the law came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked, "Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don't wash their hands before they eat!" Jesus replied, "And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? For God said, 'Honor your father and mother' and 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.' But you say that if a man says to his father or mother, 'Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is a gift devoted to God,' he is not to 'honor his father' with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you

Here, Jesus is clearly endorsing one of the Old Testesmant laws that is enforceable by death.  Does that really sound like something god would say if he came to exempt us from OT laws?

You are partially correct.  We are not exempt from the Decalogue (the 10 Commandments), but we are exempt from the Ceremonial Laws.  Remember, in Matthew 15:1-7 Jesus is clearly referring to the 5th Commandment in Exodus 20.  The scripture you mentioned where Jesus said "I didn't come to abolish the law or the prophets, but came to fulfill them" also refers to the 10 Commandments in Exodus 20.  That's what the entire discourse in Matthew 5:17-19 is all about.  It does not refer to the Ceremonial Law.  The Ceremonial Law was nailed to the cross of Christ (Colossians 2:16).  Since Jesus, the Lamb of God (John 1:29) died on the cross, animal sacrifices are not required.  Jesus has become the High Priest, mediating between God the Father and mankind.  The book of Hebrews does a pretty good job of explaining it, especially Hebrews 9:11-15, 24-28.

I know of no Christian who sacrifices animals.  To do so would be to deny Jesus' sacrifice on the cross.  All Christians are in agreement on that one.  It would be an oxymoron to embrace Christianity and the need to continue animal sacrifices.
Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Offline velkyn

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 17212
  • Darwins +346/-19
  • Gender: Female
  • You're wearing the juice, aren't you?"
Re: 10 Answers to 10 Questions
« Reply #33 on: March 23, 2009, 06:07:51 PM »
Quote
All I ask of you is this… if you ever get in a really bad jam some day, don't hesitate to cry out to God.  You will discover He is not the heartless Being you think He is. 

Ah, yes. The usual ignorant claim that God will help you if you call out. So, are you claiming that no one has ever cried out to God when a disaster happened?  Those people who crashed in the plane up in Buffalo?  The astronauts who died in the Columbia and Challenger explosions?  Those who had to throw themselves to their deaths to avoid burning alive in the two towers? 



"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

http://clubschadenfreude.wordpress.com/

Offline Aaron123

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2791
  • Darwins +80/-1
  • Gender: Male
Re: 10 Answers to 10 Questions
« Reply #34 on: March 23, 2009, 06:22:41 PM »
Quote
All I ask of you is this… if you ever get in a really bad jam some day, don't hesitate to cry out to God.  You will discover He is not the heartless Being you think He is.  

Been there, was hospitalized.  Never heard or received help from god.  I know you'll probably say that god did help me via doctors and so forth, but that doesn't explain why he couldn't have been bothered to avoid that which caused my being hospitalized.  You might then state "all part of god's plan", but that's a meaningless expression.


Quote
Only the Creator, with power to give life has the right to take it.  So as you might imagine, I don't look kindly on Capital Punishment.

If you don't like captial punishment, then how do you feel about god commanding it for most of his laws in the OT?


Quote
You know I can't prove it to you, but I have proved it to myself.  My hope is that you will seek Him out for yourself someday and resolve the issue for yourself once and for all.

Been there, done that.  I've tried examining my faith and understanding it, until I realized that christianity is as made-up as all the other religions out there.  To borrow a phrase; when you look at why you reject all the other possible gods, you'll understand why I reject your.


Quote
You are partially correct.  We are not exempt from the Decalogue (the 10 Commandments), but we are exempt from the Ceremonial Laws.

I'm just going to ask this.  Where in the bible does it clearly and unambigously say this?  I am not looking for a passage on laws being nailed to the cross, or Jesus being refered to as a lamb.  I am asking for a passage where Jesus, god, or an angel explicitly, clearly, unambigously, and in no uncertain term, state that the laws on animal sacrifice are now null and void, but we still must obey the Ten Commanments.  
Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.

Offline john 20:29

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 258
  • Darwins +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: 10 Answers to 10 Questions
« Reply #35 on: March 23, 2009, 06:36:04 PM »
Quote
Quote
All I ask of you is this… if you ever get in a really bad jam some day, don't hesitate to cry out to God.  You will discover He is not the heartless Being you think He is.

Ah, yes. The usual ignorant claim that God will help you if you call out. So, are you claiming that no one has ever cried out to God when a disaster happened?  Those people who crashed in the plane up in Buffalo?  The astronauts who died in the Columbia and Challenger explosions?  Those who had to throw themselves to their deaths to avoid burning alive in the two towers?

Velkyn and Aaron,

Remember, I did make my position clear on this one.  God in my opinion does not help out with physical ailments for reasons I explained in my original "10 Answers to 10 Questions".  Regarding what I said in my response to Aaron, I was referring to emotional troubles that come from having to deal with the death of a spouse, parent or sibling, divorce, etc.- but I still should have made that clear.
Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Offline Ambassador Pony

  • You keep what you kill.
  • Administrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 6861
  • Darwins +72/-4
  • Gender: Male
  • illuminatus
Re: 10 Answers to 10 Questions
« Reply #36 on: March 23, 2009, 06:37:56 PM »
You mean normal things that get better anyways.

Very Pavlovian.

You believe evolution and there is no evidence for that. Where is the fossil record of a half man half ape. I've only ever heard about it in reading.

Offline john 20:29

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 258
  • Darwins +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: 10 Answers to 10 Questions
« Reply #37 on: March 23, 2009, 06:40:41 PM »
Aaron,

I made a typo in one of my previous posts:  It's Colossians 2:14, not 2:16 that talks about the Ceremonial Law being nailed to the cross.
Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Offline john 20:29

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 258
  • Darwins +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: 10 Answers to 10 Questions
« Reply #38 on: March 23, 2009, 06:49:08 PM »
You mean normal things that get better anyways.

Very Pavlovian.

Ambassador Pony,

I don't deny you just made a very good point.  What you said is true.  My counter point though is that God helps us to cope with daily  problems.  But the main role of God by far is to save humanity from sin.  And I already know, even here an individual can greatly improve their behavior with well directed effort.  But how do you stop Coveting (breaking the 10th commandment)?  It's a sin of the mind that only God can cure.  Nobody escapes the 10th Commandment.
Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Offline Fridge

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 538
  • Darwins +0/-0
Re: 10 Answers to 10 Questions
« Reply #39 on: March 23, 2009, 07:06:32 PM »
I don't deny you just made a very good point.  What you said is true.  My counter point though is that God helps us to cope with daily  problems.  But the main role of God by far is to save humanity from sin.  And I already know, even here an individual can greatly improve their behavior with well directed effort.  But how do you stop Coveting (breaking the 10th commandment)?  It's a sin of the mind that only God can cure.  Nobody escapes the 10th Commandment.

Ahhh, but another Christian here doesn't feel that way.

That's not true.  The thoughts are evil sure. But to entertain the thoughts of nailin someone leads to the act of sin, whether it be physical adultery, or looking to lust after her adultery, or masturbation. That is sin. But the initial thought isn't.  Temptation and feeling the urge to do something isn't sin in itself, but if one isn't mindful it can lead to sin.
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity. " - Martin Luther King Jr.

"He wants us to stop sinning- to stop hurting each other.  And one of the ways we do that is by coming to Jesus and eating His flesh and drinking His blood"
-theist

Offline Operator_013

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 984
  • Darwins +0/-0
Re: 10 Answers to 10 Questions
« Reply #40 on: March 23, 2009, 07:54:26 PM »
Tangential post from "a tru christian" split here.

Thirteen
Inactive moderator account.

Offline john 20:29

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 258
  • Darwins +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: 10 Answers to 10 Questions
« Reply #41 on: March 23, 2009, 09:31:07 PM »
Quote
Insert Quote
Quote from: john 20:29 on Today at 07:49:08 PM
I don't deny you just made a very good point.  What you said is true.  My counter point though is that God helps us to cope with daily  problems.  But the main role of God by far is to save humanity from sin.  And I already know, even here an individual can greatly improve their behavior with well directed effort.  But how do you stop Coveting (breaking the 10th commandment)?  It's a sin of the mind that only God can cure.  Nobody escapes the 10th Commandment.

Ahhh, but another Christian here doesn't feel that way.

Quote from: Jeeves on Yesterday at 05:10:57 AM
That's not true.  The thoughts are evil sure. But to entertain the thoughts of nailin someone leads to the act of sin, whether it be physical adultery, or looking to lust after her adultery, or masturbation. That is sin. But the initial thought isn't.  Temptation and feeling the urge to do something isn't sin in itself, but if one isn't mindful it can lead to sin.

Fridge,

From a Biblical perspective, being tempted to sin is definately not the same as sinning.  I don't disagree with this other Christian you quoted.   Coveting has nothing to do with being tempted to sin.  Coveting is more of a state of mind... it's something that settles in and perculates in somebody's mind.  If you read the full verse in Exodus 20 about Coveting, you see it elaborates on what it envolves- it's wanting things you can't have, like your neighbor's wife or house.  A careful reading of Jesus' interaction with an individual in Mark 10:17-22 also shows that Coveting can be anything you have that you value more than God.
Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Offline john 20:29

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 258
  • Darwins +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: 10 Answers to 10 Questions
« Reply #42 on: March 23, 2009, 09:40:23 PM »
Quote
Quote
In other words, "just believe in me and we're good" just does not work- because under that system somebody is always getting hurt.  Under God's system, no one gets hurt.  That's why the Apostle Paul refers to God's law as being "just and good" (Romans 7:12).

Ah, what an ignorant statement. Have you studied all of the religious wars of history that have started because of god's system?

Fridge,

I see what you are saying, but that is not what I was referring to.  I just meant that if everyone should decide to obey God's Law we would all be the better for it.  Just think what a better world this would be if the human race stopped killing each other, stealing from each other, lying to each other, etc.  The results would be awesome... that's what I was talking about.
Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Offline Petey

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 881
  • Darwins +11/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: 10 Answers to 10 Questions
« Reply #43 on: March 23, 2009, 10:11:27 PM »
Quote from: john 20:29
My counter point though is that God helps us to cope with daily  problems.

So do drugs.

And I'd argue that the mental side effects of "god addiction" are just as bad, if not worse than the physical side effects of drugs.
He never pays attention, he always knows the answer, and he can never tell you how he knows. We can't keep thrashing him. He is a bad example to the other pupils. There's no educating a smart boy.
-– Terry Pratchett, Thief of Time

Offline john 20:29

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 258
  • Darwins +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: 10 Answers to 10 Questions
« Reply #44 on: March 23, 2009, 10:39:30 PM »
Quote
Quote
Been there, was hospitalized.  Never heard or received help from god.  I know you'll probably say that god did help me via doctors and so forth, but that doesn't explain why he couldn't have been bothered to avoid that which caused my being hospitalized.  You might then state "all part of god's plan", but that's a meaningless expression.

Quote
Been there, done that.  I've tried examining my faith and understanding it, until I realized that christianity is as made-up as all the other religions out there.  To borrow a phrase; when you look at why you reject all the other possible gods, you'll understand why I reject your.

I found God by reaching out to Him with my entire heart, mind and soul.  For the first 10 weeks I prayed about 6 hours a day, and also spent a lot of time reading the Bible.  I didn't mess around (mostly because I was pretty miserable and desperate for help).  You don't have to be a maniac like me to find Him, but you definately have to show Him you're serious.

Quote
I'm just going to ask this.  Where in the bible does it clearly and unambigously say this?  I am not looking for a passage on laws being nailed to the cross, or Jesus being refered to as a lamb.  I am asking for a passage where Jesus, god, or an angel explicitly, clearly, unambigously, and in no uncertain term, state that the laws on animal sacrifice are now null and void, but we still must obey the Ten Commanments.

I've met others who have a problem with this.  They wish the entire Bible was in perfect chronological order and that everything was clearly stated.  I'm personally glad it's not that way.  I recently told a friend of mine who complained about this very thing that it would be a bit insulting to me if God talked from his Word like I was some kind of idiot.  I like having a puzzle to solve.  I like comparing scripture with scripture to understand the meaning of a certain topic.  I still get excited when I find a verse that sheds light on something I've been wondering about.

As far as you wanting something that states we still must obey the ten commandments, you already quoted to me one of the main scriptures that explains that... that's why I was so surprised.  But really, what you mentioned above can only be found by comparing scripture with scripture... it's the only way to put the puzzle together.  And just like any puzzle, as it comes together the picture starts to become clearer and clearer.
Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Offline ksm

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1592
  • Darwins +1/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: 10 Answers to 10 Questions
« Reply #45 on: March 23, 2009, 10:47:30 PM »
I've met others who have a problem with this.  They wish the entire Bible was in perfect chronological order and that everything was clearly stated.

That would be handy, and I might, extremely easy for a supposed omnipotent being to achieve.

I'm personally glad it's not that way.

Because you enjoy the risk of eternal torment? Are you a masochist!

With so much at stake, perhaps some simpler, clearer instructions - less prone to interpretation errors - would be advisable. Anything less is just cruelty.

Offline Fridge

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 538
  • Darwins +0/-0
Re: 10 Answers to 10 Questions
« Reply #46 on: March 23, 2009, 10:48:01 PM »
From a Biblical perspective, being tempted to sin is definately not the same as sinning.  I don't disagree with this other Christian you quoted. 

How? Tempted to sin is a state of mind, until you sin (action). Coveting is a state of mind, it is a desire. You are sinning if you are coveting, because it is commandment. If you act on your coveting thoughts, you are doing another sin, stealing.

Quote
Coveting has nothing to do with being tempted to sin. 

Do you know what coveting is?
Quote
: to feel inordinate desire for what belongs to another

Quote
Coveting is more of a state of mind...

Quote from: dictionary
tempting: having an appeal

Quote
wanting things you can't have

Why is it a sin to desire, if you don't act on it?

Quote
A careful reading of Jesus' interaction with an individual in Mark 10:17-22 also shows that Coveting can be anything you have that you value more than God.

I found nothing about coveting.

And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life? And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God. Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother. And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth. Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.
And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.
- Mark 10:17-22
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity. " - Martin Luther King Jr.

"He wants us to stop sinning- to stop hurting each other.  And one of the ways we do that is by coming to Jesus and eating His flesh and drinking His blood"
-theist

Offline john 20:29

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 258
  • Darwins +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: 10 Answers to 10 Questions
« Reply #47 on: March 23, 2009, 10:53:30 PM »
Quote
Quote
My counter point though is that God helps us to cope with daily  problems.

So do drugs.

And I'd argue that the mental side effects of "god addiction" are just as bad, if not worse than the physical side effects of drugs.

Petey,

As the old saying goes- been there, did it, done it.  After being away from that lifestyle for many years now, I realize that booz and drugs are a form of self medicating.  It's also a substitute for the Holy Spirit... and in my opinion, a very lousy substitute.

As far as those side affects go... let me put it to you this way, no matter how delusional you think I might be, if you and I worked together in the same place, you would want me to just keep praying and reading my Bible.  You wouldn't want to be around the old me (I wouldn't even want to be around the old me).
Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Offline Fridge

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 538
  • Darwins +0/-0
Re: 10 Answers to 10 Questions
« Reply #48 on: March 23, 2009, 10:54:32 PM »
Quote
Quote
In other words, "just believe in me and we're good" just does not work- because under that system somebody is always getting hurt.  Under God's system, no one gets hurt.  That's why the Apostle Paul refers to God's law as being "just and good" (Romans 7:12).
Ah, what an ignorant statement. Have you studied all of the religious wars of history that have started because of god's system?
I see what you are saying, but that is not what I was referring to.  I just meant that if everyone should decide to obey God's Law we would all be the better for it.  Just think what a better world this would be if the human race stopped killing each other, stealing from each other, lying to each other, etc.  The results would be awesome... that's what I was talking about.

Why not mention all of the other laws, such as everyone worshipping god? It's a fairy tale world. People have tried to get everyone to follow god's laws.... it's called the Spanish Inquisition and the Crusades.

Lying, killing, stealing... stopping those does not require a belief in god.
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity. " - Martin Luther King Jr.

"He wants us to stop sinning- to stop hurting each other.  And one of the ways we do that is by coming to Jesus and eating His flesh and drinking His blood"
-theist

Offline john 20:29

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 258
  • Darwins +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: 10 Answers to 10 Questions
« Reply #49 on: March 23, 2009, 11:06:16 PM »
Quote
I'd like to point out the key difference between God and the Legal system.  If I were to go up to someone and shoot them in the head, then openly and honestly apologize, any court with half a brain would send me to jail for a good, long time.  However, if I openly and honestly said to God "I'm Sorry" then I'd go to heaven as if I hadn't taken a life and probably made the lives of another group of people relative to hell.

Max,

That is a fascinating point you bring up, and the answer to that is… that just shows you the power of the blood of Jesus Christ!

Quote
However, men who have dedicated their lives to helping or generally not doing anything wrong, Freud, Einstein, Anne Frank, Ghandi, Christopher Reeves...All these people are in hell, right now.  And don't give me this "that's not true" stuff, your book says that if we don't believe in God and praise him regularly, we're going to hell.  So if you don't mind, I'd rather go to hell with the greatest men and women in the world than go to heaven with a bunch of murderers, arsonists, and other various lawbreakers.  Have fun up there though, but just remember:  Don't pick up the soap.

Max, you are really opening up a can of worms with this one.  I know this is not the issue you brought up, but since you mentioned it, I have to correct it. All those people you listed are not in hell right now.  Any Christian who tells you that does not know what they are talking about.  The doctrine of the immortality of the soul is pure unbiblical nonsense.  The dead are in the same state of existence that all of us were in before we were born.  In other words they just don't exist anymore.  I Timothy 6:16 explicitly states that only God is immortal.  Solomon in Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 explicitly states "the dead know not anything".

But yes, at a future point in time the wicked dead will be raised and will be judged by their deeds (see Revelation 20:12-15).  After punishment has been meted out, the wicked will once again go back into the same state of nothingness.  There will be no eternally burning hell.  The doctrine of an eternally burning hell is also absolute rubbish.  It is completely unbiblical.  As I told someone else in this thread, it makes God out to be worse than the devil himself.  I'm seriously thinking about starting a new topic that addresses that issue.

Max, you made me real sad when you said you would rather go to hell.  I also got the part about the soap.  I hope and pray to God you change your mind before it's too late.
Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Offline john 20:29

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 258
  • Darwins +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: 10 Answers to 10 Questions
« Reply #50 on: March 23, 2009, 11:08:32 PM »
Quote
The only reason there are negative consequences for sin is because god made it so, just as the reason humans sin is because god made us so. He really only has himself to blame here, and calling it justice that he punishes his creations for being what he made them in the world he made is laughable. If he truly did not want us to sin, he would have made us so, clearly he wants us to sin and die.

Kerlyssa,

You are getting into some really deep theoretical stuff with that one.  If I'm hearing you right, you are basically saying 'God, just forget about laws and create an anarchical system without consequences'.

But I just don't see how you can have any type of existence or reality without consequences.  How do you wipe away the law of cause and effect?  What kind of a day to day life would we have in a world like that?  And as I said in my original 10 Answers to 10 Questions, what would be our incentive to grow as individuals if I we can do whatever we want without consequences?  And what does that do to my freewill if God is always having to intervene to protect me from my stupid decisions?  And why would I ever stop making stupid decisions if I never suffer any consequences?

What if someone in this world of yours loves to sin and thrives on it… how are they going to feel if God is constantly stopping what they want to do so that there are no adverse consequences?  In other words, what if this person hates my guts and wants to harm me but just can't ever make it happen because of your "no consequences allowed" rule.  This person would eventually come to feel like they live in a straight jacket… this system of yours would be complete torture for them.

I can't see it Kerlyssa.  The idea of everyone in society voluntarily agreeing to obey God's laws because it's in everyone's best interest appeals to me.  The 10 commandments make sense to me.  I consent to allowing God to write His laws in my mind.  And I want to live in that world where everyone else has made the same decision.  I like the idea of living in a place where I don't have to worry about somebody killing me, stealing my stuff, lying to me, etc.  It sounds peaceful.
Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Offline Fridge

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 538
  • Darwins +0/-0
Re: 10 Answers to 10 Questions
« Reply #51 on: March 23, 2009, 11:14:44 PM »
But I just don't see how you can have any type of existence or reality without consequences.

Are you god? Are you admitting that there are things an all-powerful god cannot do?
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity. " - Martin Luther King Jr.

"He wants us to stop sinning- to stop hurting each other.  And one of the ways we do that is by coming to Jesus and eating His flesh and drinking His blood"
-theist

Offline john 20:29

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 258
  • Darwins +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: 10 Answers to 10 Questions
« Reply #52 on: March 24, 2009, 12:12:39 AM »
Quote
Quote
A careful reading of Jesus' interaction with an individual in Mark 10:17-22 also shows that Coveting can be anything you have that you value more than God.

I found nothing about coveting.

And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life? And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God. Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother. And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth. Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.
And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions. - Mark 10:17-22

Fridge, this passage has some depth to it... that's why I said a "careful" reading...here's what's going on:  The last six commandments in Exodus 20 deal with man's duty to his fellow man.  If you look at what Jesus said in Mark 10:17-22, you will notice He only mentioned 5 of the 6 commandments- He repeated the commandment on stealing twice (do not steal... defraud not), and left out the commandment on Coveting.  As the story says, after listening to Jesus list the commandments, the man felt like he had God's approval.  But when Jesus told him to sell his possessions and give to the poor, he showed where his heart really was- he loved money.  He loved things more than people or God.  He was covetous.

This story kind of freaks some people out because they think it means you can't own anything, that you have to live like a pauper to be a Christian, but that is not what the Bible teaches.  The Bible's issue is with the love of money, not with money itself.   

Quote
Why is it a sin to desire, if you don't act on it?

God knows all sin starts in the mind.  And that's also why it's so important not to yield to temptation.
Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Offline Fridge

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 538
  • Darwins +0/-0
Re: 10 Answers to 10 Questions
« Reply #53 on: March 24, 2009, 12:40:59 AM »
Fridge, this passage has some depth to it... that's why I said a "careful" reading...here's what's going on:  The last six commandments in Exodus 20 deal with man's duty to his fellow man.  If you look at what Jesus said in Mark 10:17-22, you will notice He only mentioned 5 of the 6 commandments- He repeated the commandment on stealing twice (do not steal... defraud not), and left out the commandment on Coveting.  As the story says, after listening to Jesus list the commandments, the man felt like he had God's approval.  But when Jesus told him to sell his possessions and give to the poor, he showed where his heart really was- he loved money.  He loved things more than people or God.  He was covetous.

This story kind of freaks some people out because they think it means you can't own anything, that you have to live like a pauper to be a Christian, but that is not what the Bible teaches.  The Bible's issue is with the love of money, not with money itself.   

This is semantics argument now. Coveting is desiring what is not yours. You already defined this. A many loving his own money is not coveting, it has nothing to do with whether he loves the money more than god or not. Jesus told him to sell all he had and give it to the poor, it is completely unrelated to coveting.

Quote
Quote
Why is it a sin to desire, if you don't act on it?
God knows all sin starts in the mind.  And that's also why it's so important not to yield to temptation.

Yielding to temptation when it comes to coveting is going to result in either stealing or adultery. Coveting is a mental state. The Bible states that desiring what is not yours is a sin, regardless of whether you actually yield to it or not.
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity. " - Martin Luther King Jr.

"He wants us to stop sinning- to stop hurting each other.  And one of the ways we do that is by coming to Jesus and eating His flesh and drinking His blood"
-theist

Offline Ambassador Pony

  • You keep what you kill.
  • Administrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 6861
  • Darwins +72/-4
  • Gender: Male
  • illuminatus
Re: 10 Answers to 10 Questions
« Reply #54 on: March 24, 2009, 05:56:37 AM »
You mean normal things that get better anyways.

Very Pavlovian.

Ambassador Pony,

I don't deny you just made a very good point.  What you said is true.  My counter point though is that God helps us to cope with daily  problems.  But the main role of God by far is to save humanity from sin.  And I already know, even here an individual can greatly improve their behavior with well directed effort.  But how do you stop Coveting (breaking the 10th commandment)?  It's a sin of the mind that only God can cure.  Nobody escapes the 10th Commandment.

Your 'counterpoint' is to repeat what you already said, even if it was completely and naturalistically accomodated?

I don't think you comprehend the "very good point".

Yes, the mythological storybook you think is valid, because of where and when you live, says some things are thought crimes.

I also heard if we go tap on that bar over there, food will be dispensed. Let's go tap the bar.
You believe evolution and there is no evidence for that. Where is the fossil record of a half man half ape. I've only ever heard about it in reading.

Offline snkiesch

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 307
  • Darwins +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: 10 Answers to 10 Questions
« Reply #55 on: March 24, 2009, 07:11:06 AM »
Quote
All I ask of you is this… if you ever get in a really bad jam some day, don't hesitate to cry out to God.  You will discover He is not the heartless Being you think He is. 

Tell that to the christian firefighter who can not get into a room because of the heat and smoke in a hallway. He can hear a child trapped by the flames screaming in terror. How many of them have prayed Jesus let me save this child? All they have ever heard is the child screaming in pain and terror. God has never helped save the child.
"The evangelists were inventors – not historians."


– Porphyry (Against the Christians, c. 280 AD)

Offline velkyn

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 17212
  • Darwins +346/-19
  • Gender: Female
  • You're wearing the juice, aren't you?"
Re: 10 Answers to 10 Questions
« Reply #56 on: March 24, 2009, 09:41:03 AM »
Quote
Quote
All I ask of you is this… if you ever get in a really bad jam some day, don't hesitate to cry out to God.  You will discover He is not the heartless Being you think He is.

Ah, yes. The usual ignorant claim that God will help you if you call out. So, are you claiming that no one has ever cried out to God when a disaster happened?  Those people who crashed in the plane up in Buffalo?  The astronauts who died in the Columbia and Challenger explosions?  Those who had to throw themselves to their deaths to avoid burning alive in the two towers?

Velkyn and Aaron,

Remember, I did make my position clear on this one.  God in my opinion does not help out with physical ailments for reasons I explained in my original "10 Answers to 10 Questions".  Regarding what I said in my response to Aaron, I was referring to emotional troubles that come from having to deal with the death of a spouse, parent or sibling, divorce, etc.- but I still should have made that clear.

You "explained" your position here, I know.

Quote
As you look closely at this scenario it becomes obvious that sin, which is the transgression of His law, doesn't look so bad anymore, because there are no consequences.  And if sin isn't so bad, you have to wonder why Jesus needed to die on the cross as an atonement for our sins.  And for that matter, there's not much need to grow as individuals if we can do whatever we want without consequences.

So it quickly becomes apparent that if God did heal amputees, stopped starvation, and eliminated all human suffering, He would be making a mockery of His law, a mockery of His Son's sacrifice, and be reducing our incentive to grow.  God allows suffering because He wants us to see the transgression of His law results in just that- suffering.

Now, you try to claim that physical ailments are somehow mysteriously different from emotional ones.  No reasoning, just that it makes your excuses for your God more palatable for you.  Suffering is suffering.  and a really "bad jam" makes no difference between physical and emotional harm.

You are simply one more Christian who must keep changing what they "meant" in an attempt to elude the many problems with their claims. 

oh and for your claims of
Quote
I found God by reaching out to Him with my entire heart, mind and soul.  For the first 10 weeks I prayed about 6 hours a day, and also spent a lot of time reading the Bible.  I didn't mess around (mostly because I was pretty miserable and desperate for help).  You don't have to be a maniac like me to find Him, but you definately have to show Him you're serious.

I did pretty much all of that.  Didn't get an answer at all.  Let me guess, I wasn't serious enough.  How does one determine that?  What is your magic spell to get God's attention?

Quote
I'm personally glad it's not that way.  I recently told a friend of mine who complained about this very thing that it would be a bit insulting to me if God talked from his Word like I was some kind of idiot.  I like having a puzzle to solve.  I like comparing scripture with scripture to understand the meaning of a certain topic.  I still get excited when I find a verse that sheds light on something I've been wondering about.

Funny how your happiness about "having a puzzle", if it's true, has guaranteed millions have been damned to eternal torture and the only reason you are happy is becuase you think you have the only right answer and are "safe".  So many Christians claim to have the "right" answer and they all contradict each other.  Your magic decoder ring aka "holy spirit" tells everyone something different. 

It is more and more evident that you really are sadistic.  I suppose I should be glad that so many people do become Christians.  It is a great shorthand to know what one is dealing with. 
"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

http://clubschadenfreude.wordpress.com/

Offline john 20:29

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 258
  • Darwins +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: 10 Answers to 10 Questions
« Reply #57 on: March 24, 2009, 08:04:24 PM »
Quote
Quote
But I just don't see how you can have any type of existence or reality without consequences.

Are you god? Are you admitting that there are things an all-powerful god cannot do?

Fridge,

You can't ask God to do something contradictory.  I remember when I was in Grade School (a long time ago for me) there were some kids who would go around saying "If God is so powerful, then why can't He make a rock so heavy that He can't pick it up?"  I don't know for sure what that's called, but it sounds like circular reasoning to me.

You can beg to differ, but as I see it, asking God to create a world without consequences is no different than those grade school kids with their contradictory line of reasoning.
Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.