Author Topic: 10 Answers to 10 Questions  (Read 13944 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline john 20:29

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 258
  • Darwins +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: 10 Answers to 10 Questions
« Reply #232 on: April 17, 2009, 07:28:40 PM »
Quote
Quote
Those are the last six commandments (of the ten commandments in Exodus 20) that represent man's duty to his fellow man.

And what exactly is woman's 'duty' according to your "divine" commandments?

I said man, referring to "mankind".  Remember, the last three letters in woman is "man", making you a part of "mankind".

Quote
Quote
Quote from: john 20:29 on Today at 03:01:27 PM
It pains Him to see all the violence on this planet, spouses suffering as victims of adultery, etc.

But what do "His" commandments say about marital rape? Or does that not "pain Him" enough to mention it in these commandments of yours?

Deuteronomy 22:25-26 deals with the issue of a married woman being raped.  Though it does not specifically address a man raping his own wife, it does not exclude it either.  I have no doubt these two verses would still apply in this situation.  They would have killed him just as well, because marriage is not a license for bad behavior.

Quote
Quote
Quote from: john 20:29 on Today at 03:01:27 PM
If everyone obeyed those laws, then parents would be included in that group ("everyone"), so they would be worth honoring.

Wait, which commandment was it that said "do not abuse children"? Oh, wait that's in the Satanic Bible, not the Christian Bible. My mistake.

Dear lady, please tell me you're not really reading that foul, soul damning book!

Quote
I am tired of warning you "John". You will be Punished for your continual mockery and denial of the True God. Dispose of this nonsense before it is too late!

Why do you keep doing this?  This does nothing to add to our conversation or debate.
Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Offline Max Kodan

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 957
  • Darwins +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: 10 Answers to 10 Questions
« Reply #233 on: April 17, 2009, 07:57:52 PM »
Quote
25.  But if out in the country a man happens to meet a girl pledged to be married and rapes her, only the man who has done this shall die. 26.  Do nothing to the girl; she has committed no sin deserving death. This case is like that of someone who attacks and murders his neighbor

Deuteronomy 22, 25-26. [NIV]

Quote
25`And if in a field the man find the damsel who is betrothed, and the man hath laid hold on her, and lain with her, then hath the man who hath lain with her died alone;

 26and to the damsel thou dost not do anything, the damsel hath no deadly sin; for as a man riseth against his neighbour and hath murdered him -- the life, so [is] this thing;

Deuteronomy 22:25-26 [YLT] (Young's Literal Translation)

That says that if someone who's BETROTHED to be married is found and raped IN A FIELD (not in town), then don't kill her.  If she's betrothed to be married, then she's not married.
If you consider speed to be a 3D vector it doesn't really matter whether you call it momentum or speed.

Offline Dark_Fist

  • Freshman
  • *
  • Posts: 41
  • Darwins +0/-0
  • Gender: Female
  • Lift your skinny fists like antennas to Heaven.
Re: 10 Answers to 10 Questions
« Reply #234 on: April 17, 2009, 08:24:37 PM »
Quote
Quote
Those are the last six commandments (of the ten commandments in Exodus 20) that represent man's duty to his fellow man.

And what exactly is woman's 'duty' according to your "divine" commandments?

I said man, referring to "mankind".  Remember, the last three letters in woman is "man", making you a part of "mankind".

Really now? Your "God" spoke of women and men as equals? That's an interesting claim based upon the 10th commandment you admire so much:

"You shall not covet your neighbour’s house [or field]; you shall not covet your neighbour’s wife, or male or female slave, or ox, or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbour"

Well isn't that just a cozy little grouping? Wives alongside slaves, livestock, and other possessions of men. So did you just mean the world would be better for misogynistic men?


Quote
Quote
Quote from: john 20:29 on Today at 03:01:27 PM
It pains Him to see all the violence on this planet, spouses suffering as victims of adultery, etc.

But what do "His" commandments say about marital rape? Or does that not "pain Him" enough to mention it in these commandments of yours?

Deuteronomy 22:25-26 deals with the issue of a married woman being raped.  Though it does not specifically address a man raping his own wife, it does not exclude it either.  I have no doubt these two verses would still apply in this situation.  They would have killed him just as well, because marriage is not a license for bad behavior.

So you're saying adultery deserves a commandment but intermarital rape is not even worthy of mention throughout your entire "holy" text?


Quote
Quote
Quote from: john 20:29 on Today at 03:01:27 PM
If everyone obeyed those laws, then parents would be included in that group ("everyone"), so they would be worth honoring.

Wait, which commandment was it that said "do not abuse children"? Oh, wait that's in the Satanic Bible, not the Christian Bible. My mistake.

Dear lady, please tell me you're not really reading that foul, soul damning book!

Oh, so you've read it as well? My point stands however, that the Satanic Bible protects children better than your Christian Bible.


Quote
I am tired of warning you "John". You will be Punished for your continual mockery and denial of the True God. Dispose of this nonsense before it is too late!

Why do you keep doing this?  This does nothing to add to our conversation or debate.

How does My Superior Knowledge of the True God not add to our conversation about your False "God"?
"How do we know that our holy books are free from error? Because the books themselves say so. Epistemological black holes of this sort are fast draining the light from our world." - Sam Harris, The End Of Faith

Offline john 20:29

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 258
  • Darwins +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: 10 Answers to 10 Questions
« Reply #235 on: April 17, 2009, 09:40:16 PM »
Quote
25.  But if out in the country a man happens to meet a girl pledged to be married and rapes her, only the man who has done this shall die. 26.  Do nothing to the girl; she has committed no sin deserving death. This case is like that of someone who attacks and murders his neighbor

Deuteronomy 22, 25-26. [NIV]

Quote
25`And if in a field the man find the damsel who is betrothed, and the man hath laid hold on her, and lain with her, then hath the man who hath lain with her died alone;

 26and to the damsel thou dost not do anything, the damsel hath no deadly sin; for as a man riseth against his neighbour and hath murdered him -- the life, so [is] this thing;

Deuteronomy 22:25-26 [YLT] (Young's Literal Translation)

That says that if someone who's BETROTHED to be married is found and raped IN A FIELD (not in town), then don't kill her.  If she's betrothed to be married, then she's not married.

Thanks for correcting me Max.  I know what "betrothed" means, but for some reason when I was reading this verse I interpreted it as "married".

If this heinous crime happened (a man raping his own wife), it would force the judge to engage in some "judicial creativity", since no specific law condemns it.  The judge would have to rely on Deuteronomy 22:25-26 because it comes the closest to describing the situation.  It's about a man forcing himself on a woman... that is the real issue being addressed- not whether the woman is married or not, or whether the act was done in a house or a field.  It's about the use of force to rape a woman.  So I think this guy would be put to death based on the fundamental principle outlined in this verse.  Of course, she still has to be able to scream because the guy has to be caught in the act, or else he cannot be condemned (Deuteronomy 19:15).

My main point is just because there were not specific laws for some crimes did not mean the judge could not engage in some judicial creativity.  He had a lot of laws he could rely on for guidance.
Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Offline Max Kodan

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 957
  • Darwins +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: 10 Answers to 10 Questions
« Reply #236 on: April 17, 2009, 10:59:39 PM »
Interesting how God missed writing those things down, eh?
If you consider speed to be a 3D vector it doesn't really matter whether you call it momentum or speed.

Offline Dark_Fist

  • Freshman
  • *
  • Posts: 41
  • Darwins +0/-0
  • Gender: Female
  • Lift your skinny fists like antennas to Heaven.
Re: 10 Answers to 10 Questions
« Reply #237 on: April 17, 2009, 11:50:27 PM »
Interesting how God missed writing those things down, eh?

I guess "He" had more important things to warn humanity against like erecting graven images. Now that's something we all need to make sure we don't do. Intermarital rape and child abuse? Well... I'm sure if we read between the lines, somewhere we'll find something that maybe suggests that husbands shouldn't rape their wives and beat their children. Right, "John"?

What a sickening disfigurement of God's True Will. Astonishing how many have been misled to believe this nonsense.
"How do we know that our holy books are free from error? Because the books themselves say so. Epistemological black holes of this sort are fast draining the light from our world." - Sam Harris, The End Of Faith

Offline Positiveaob

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1059
  • Darwins +5/-0
Re: 10 Answers to 10 Questions
« Reply #238 on: April 18, 2009, 04:41:56 PM »
When I made this comment, I was talking about God's policy for the entire human race.  I was trying to explain why He doesn't step in and stop suffering on planet earth.  My point was that if He was to heal everyone and stop all suffering, you would have a planet full of people breaking His laws without consequences.  In other words, you would have people behaving badly with nothing bad happening.  Think about how crazy that would be.  The problem is not with God, it's with the human race.  We need to stop the killing, adultery, theft, rape, etc.  That's the real solution to the problem.  We need to obey God's laws.  The starving people, the amputees you talked about are the victims in this mess.

You know just occurred to me, if the suffering in the world, including starvation, disease, etc. is god's puinishment for breaking his laws, arent you going against his will by trying to alleviate the suffering of others?  Sort of like freeing criminals from jail?  I feel bad that I donated to the hurricane katrina relief fund.  Who knows how many have killed, or raped or coveted their neighbor's ox because I helped remove that threat. 
If you desire peace of soul and happiness, then believe; if you would be a disciple of truth, then inquire. - Neitzsche

Support the Military Religious Freedom Foundation!

Offline john 20:29

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 258
  • Darwins +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: 10 Answers to 10 Questions
« Reply #239 on: April 18, 2009, 06:46:29 PM »
Quote
Quote
When I made this comment, I was talking about God's policy for the entire human race.  I was trying to explain why He doesn't step in and stop suffering on planet earth.  My point was that if He was to heal everyone and stop all suffering, you would have a planet full of people breaking His laws without consequences.  In other words, you would have people behaving badly with nothing bad happening.  Think about how crazy that would be.  The problem is not with God, it's with the human race.  We need to stop the killing, adultery, theft, rape, etc.  That's the real solution to the problem.  We need to obey God's laws.  The starving people, the amputees you talked about are the victims in this mess.

You know just occurred to me, if the suffering in the world, including starvation, disease, etc. is god's puinishment for breaking his laws, arent you going against his will by trying to alleviate the suffering of others?  Sort of like freeing criminals from jail?  I feel bad that I donated to the hurricane katrina relief fund.  Who knows how many have killed, or raped or coveted their neighbor's ox because I helped remove that threat.

Positive, you are positively wrong on that...  suffering is not God's punishment for breaking His laws, it's merely a byproduct of it.  We punish ourselves when we break His law.  Think of a really obese person who has problems even walking because of all the weight they are lugging around.  Did God punish them, or did they punish themselves with their excessive intake?  Why does God always get stuck taking the blame for the bad behavior of the human race?  He gave His instruction manual (the Bible) to help us run our lives... then when we don't bother following its instructions and go off half cocked on our own and make a mess of things- He gets the blame.
Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Offline Azdgari

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 14105
  • Darwins +472/-40
  • Gender: Male
Re: 10 Answers to 10 Questions
« Reply #240 on: April 18, 2009, 06:51:17 PM »
If the suffering is not a part of God's intended punishment, then he has no reason not to alleviate it.

If he has reason not to alleviate it, then it is part of his intended punishment.
I always say what I mean. But sometimes I'm a sarcastic prick whose tone can't be properly communicated via text.

Offline john 20:29

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 258
  • Darwins +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: 10 Answers to 10 Questions
« Reply #241 on: April 18, 2009, 08:32:18 PM »
Quote
If the suffering is not a part of God's intended punishment, then he has no reason not to alleviate it.

AZ, if the God of the Bible was not a God of love, then you would be right.  But He does love us, and because of that will alleviate suffering someday when He comes back to earth.
Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Offline john 20:29

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 258
  • Darwins +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: 10 Answers to 10 Questions
« Reply #242 on: April 18, 2009, 08:55:09 PM »
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote from: john 20:29 on Today at 03:01:27 PM
If everyone obeyed those laws, then parents would be included in that group ("everyone"), so they would be worth honoring.

Wait, which commandment was it that said "do not abuse children"? Oh, wait that's in the Satanic Bible, not the Christian Bible. My mistake.

Dear lady, please tell me you're not really reading that foul, soul damning book!

Oh, so you've read it as well? My point stands however, that the Satanic Bible protects children better than your Christian Bible.

No I have not read it.  The Lord Jesus Christ says that Satan is a liar, so why should I read a book inspired by a liar?

"Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."  John 8:44

If you are reading that book, you are being lied to.  Haven't you ever heard of Satanic Ritual Abuse?  Why don't you listen to former FBI Agent Ted Gunderson's testimony on YouTube sometime.  Satan cares nothing for children.

According to former Satanist Bill Schnoebelen that book is entry level Satanism.  Wake up before its too late and you get dragged in deeper then you already are!  Get rid of that book!!

Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote from: john 20:29 on Yesterday at 08:28:40 PM
Quote
I am tired of warning you "John". You will be Punished for your continual mockery and denial of the True God. Dispose of this nonsense before it is too late!

Why do you keep doing this?  This does nothing to add to our conversation or debate.

How does My Superior Knowledge of the True God not add to our conversation about your False "God"?

What exactly is the name of this True God you are referring to?
Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Offline Azdgari

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 14105
  • Darwins +472/-40
  • Gender: Male
Re: 10 Answers to 10 Questions
« Reply #243 on: April 18, 2009, 10:17:30 PM »
Quote
If the suffering is not a part of God's intended punishment, then he has no reason not to alleviate it.

AZ, if the God of the Bible was not a God of love, then you would be right.  But He does love us, and because of that will alleviate suffering someday when He comes back to earth.

If you can't see what's wrong with what you just said about a supposedly all-powerful deity, then I doubt you'd understand any attempt at explanation anyway.  :-\
I always say what I mean. But sometimes I'm a sarcastic prick whose tone can't be properly communicated via text.

Offline Dark_Fist

  • Freshman
  • *
  • Posts: 41
  • Darwins +0/-0
  • Gender: Female
  • Lift your skinny fists like antennas to Heaven.
Re: 10 Answers to 10 Questions
« Reply #244 on: April 19, 2009, 02:39:00 AM »
No I have not read it.  The Lord Jesus Christ says that Satan is a liar, so why should I read a book inspired by a liar?

"Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."  John 8:44

If you are reading that book, you are being lied to.  Haven't you ever heard of Satanic Ritual Abuse?  Why don't you listen to former FBI Agent Ted Gunderson's testimony on YouTube sometime.  Satan cares nothing for children.

According to former Satanist Bill Schnoebelen that book is entry level Satanism.  Wake up before its too late and you get dragged in deeper then you already are!  Get rid of that book!!

God told me that your "Jesus" never existed and that your Bible is full of Lies.

The Ninth of the Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth: "Do not harm little children."

Satanic Ritual Abuse? As in that ridiculous Satanic Panic nonsense?

The Satanic Bible is far less insulting to God than your Christian Bible. It does a far better job putting humans in their proper place. You should read it sometime.


What exactly is the name of this True God you are referring to?

Labels such as names are an invention of the feeble human mind used in an attempt to capture anything which can be grasped by mutant apes. The True God, however, can never be Truly Known by any human mind not Chosen as I have been. Therefore I can only give you the closest approximation to what you might "name" Him, while the reality is that He will always be beyond your grasp. Only through Me can His Will be recognized by those of Inferior capacity, such as yourself.
"How do we know that our holy books are free from error? Because the books themselves say so. Epistemological black holes of this sort are fast draining the light from our world." - Sam Harris, The End Of Faith

Offline john 20:29

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 258
  • Darwins +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: 10 Answers to 10 Questions
« Reply #245 on: April 19, 2009, 12:17:04 PM »
Quote
God told me that your "Jesus" never existed and that your Bible is full of Lies.

The Ninth of the Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth: "Do not harm little children."

Satanic Ritual Abuse? As in that ridiculous Satanic Panic nonsense?

The Satanic Bible is far less insulting to God than your Christian Bible. It does a far better job putting humans in their proper place. You should read it sometime.

If the religion of Satan is all that great, then why did these two men leave it?






Quote
Quote
Quote from: john 20:29 on Yesterday at 09:55:09 PM
What exactly is the name of this True God you are referring to?

Labels such as names are an invention of the feeble human mind used in an attempt to capture anything which can be grasped by mutant apes. The True God, however, can never be Truly Known by any human mind not Chosen as I have been. Therefore I can only give you the closest approximation to what you might "name" Him, while the reality is that He will always be beyond your grasp. Only through Me can His Will be recognized by those of Inferior capacity, such as yourself.

My Bible says that because Jesus Christ died for you on the cross that makes you an extremely valuable and important person.  And not only you but every human being on the planet.  You are one of the children of the King of the Universe!  You are His through creation and redemption.  All you have to do is accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior and be reconciled to Him by confessing your sins.  I hope you will do that someday... He will be waiting for you with open arms, and there is NOTHING you can do or have already done that He can't forgive.
Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Offline Dark_Fist

  • Freshman
  • *
  • Posts: 41
  • Darwins +0/-0
  • Gender: Female
  • Lift your skinny fists like antennas to Heaven.
Re: 10 Answers to 10 Questions
« Reply #246 on: April 19, 2009, 01:34:25 PM »
If the religion of Satan is all that great, then why did these two men leave it?

I don't need to watch those videos to ask: If your religion is all that great, why have countless people left it?


My Bible says that because Jesus Christ died for you on the cross that makes you an extremely valuable and important person.  And not only you but every human being on the planet.  You are one of the children of the King of the Universe!  You are His through creation and redemption.  All you have to do is accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior and be reconciled to Him by confessing your sins.  I hope you will do that someday... He will be waiting for you with open arms, and there is NOTHING you can do or have already done that He can't forgive.

As I will continue to remind you, I am in Direct Communication with the True God of whom your "God" is only a petty mockery. God has told Me that your Bible is a False text that was created by weak-minded sinners to gain power over the gullible and your so-called "Jesus" never existed to begin with. I have been Chosen to communicate His Will to humanity. Cast away these falsehoods or be Punished!
"How do we know that our holy books are free from error? Because the books themselves say so. Epistemological black holes of this sort are fast draining the light from our world." - Sam Harris, The End Of Faith

Offline Positiveaob

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1059
  • Darwins +5/-0
Re: 10 Answers to 10 Questions
« Reply #247 on: April 19, 2009, 02:54:59 PM »
Quote
If the suffering is not a part of God's intended punishment, then he has no reason not to alleviate it.

AZ, if the God of the Bible was not a God of love, then you would be right.  But He does love us, and because of that will alleviate suffering someday when He comes back to earth.


Ah yes, such a god of love.  The one who kills all the first born of an entire nation.  Destroys entire cities and then kills a woman escaping from the city just because she turned around to look.  Not only punishes anyone who makes an image of him, but goes on to punish their kids, their grandkids, and great-grandkids because he is a "jealous god" (his words, not mine).  Great Guy.  The wonderful father who gets pissed and destroys ALL LIVING LIFE ON EARTH except for Noah and his family and representatives of each animal species when he is upset about how bad we're acting.

That's always an interesting story that seems to get forgotten when you carry on about how he sent himself down then came back to heaven via the cross (how's that a sacrifice if he just went back to where he started?) in order to forgive us our sins.  He sure changed his approach radically over time. 

Before the crucifiction, when he got upset at the sin in the world so he just wiped every living thing off it, even all the evil animals, and then repopulated it.  Not much ambiguity there. 

But later when he doesnt like what his creation is doing, he decides to send himself down in the guise of a human, try to convince everyone, mostly unsuccessfully, that he is god, lets himself die on the cross and that somehow does the trick. 

Nowadays, he takes the approach of causing (or I guess allowing?  I'm still trying to figure out your logic) suffering of innocent people throughout the world and that's supposed to be the deterrent for further sin. 

Why do you always quote the wonderful way he sacrificed himself to absolve us of our sins but not carry on about the wonderful way he destroyed sin in the world the first time, i.e. by destroying all life? 
If you desire peace of soul and happiness, then believe; if you would be a disciple of truth, then inquire. - Neitzsche

Support the Military Religious Freedom Foundation!

Offline Positiveaob

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1059
  • Darwins +5/-0
Re: 10 Answers to 10 Questions
« Reply #248 on: April 19, 2009, 03:18:50 PM »
Your logic to explain why god allows suffering in the world is all over the place.  first you say this:

if He was to heal everyone and stop all suffering, you would have a planet full of people breaking His laws without consequences.  In other words, you would have people behaving badly with nothing bad happening. 

Which implies that suffering in this world is a deterrent to sin.  So that starving children in India, massive tsunamis, amputees, etc., etc., exist as a way for god to keep a lid on sin in the world.  Because if these kids were fed, if the 100,000+ killed by the tsunami were alive today, if amputees could just grow back their limbs, then people would go around breaking commandments willy-nilly without thinking twice about it.  Re-read your words carefully.  This is what exactly what you're saying.

Then you go on to state this:

Quote
suffering is not God's punishment for breaking His laws, it's merely a byproduct of it.  We punish ourselves when we break His law.  Think of a really obese person who has problems even walking because of all the weight they are lugging around.  Did God punish them, or did they punish themselves with their excessive intake?  Why does God always get stuck taking the blame for the bad behavior of the human race?  He gave His instruction manual (the Bible) to help us run our lives... then when we don't bother following its instructions and go off half cocked on our own and make a mess of things- He gets the blame.

So now, the little girl who dying of leukemia is suffering because she brought it on herself, the way a fat person gets that way from eating too much.  Got it. 

But then:

Quote
But He does love us, and because of that will alleviate suffering someday when He comes back to earth.

So it's not that he is allowing suffering in the world because it helps deter people from going overboard with their sinning.  It's not because starving and dying little children bring it on themselves by overindulging.  It's not that he is allowing suffering at all.  He's just taking a break and he's gonna alleviate suffering when he comes back someday.  Crystal clear.
If you desire peace of soul and happiness, then believe; if you would be a disciple of truth, then inquire. - Neitzsche

Support the Military Religious Freedom Foundation!

Offline john 20:29

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 258
  • Darwins +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: 10 Answers to 10 Questions
« Reply #249 on: April 19, 2009, 09:33:25 PM »
Quote
Ah yes, such a god of love.  The one who kills all the first born of an entire nation.  Destroys entire cities and then kills a woman escaping from the city just because she turned around to look.  Not only punishes anyone who makes an image of him, but goes on to punish their kids, their grandkids, and great-grandkids because he is a "jealous god" (his words, not mine).  Great Guy.  The wonderful father who gets pissed and destroys ALL LIVING LIFE ON EARTH except for Noah and his family and representatives of each animal species when he is upset about how bad we're acting.

Most interesting how you omitted all the warnings that God gave prior to doing those things.

Quote
That's always an interesting story that seems to get forgotten when you carry on about how he sent himself down then came back to heaven via the cross (how's that a sacrifice if he just went back to where he started?) in order to forgive us our sins.  He sure changed his approach radically over time.

You are assuming the place He left was no better than here.  I think Heaven is probably one hundred times better than life on this planet.  Every day He spent on earth must have been a trial for Him compared to His former life in Heaven.  So yea, there was a sacrifice.  Thirty three years that ended by getting killed for going around being helpful to others.  And you can't get nailed to a cross and not suffer. 

Quote
Before the crucifiction, when he got upset at the sin in the world so he just wiped every living thing off it, even all the evil animals, and then repopulated it.  Not much ambiguity there.

Remember, they were warned by Noah for 120 years, but refused to repent.

Quote
But later when he doesnt like what his creation is doing, he decides to send himself down in the guise of a human, try to convince everyone, mostly unsuccessfully, that he is god, lets himself die on the cross and that somehow does the trick.

Nowadays, he takes the approach of causing (or I guess allowing?  I'm still trying to figure out your logic) suffering of innocent people throughout the world and that's supposed to be the deterrent for further sin.

God allows suffering because to override the law of cause and effect would be too weird for words.  There are consequences for law breaking.  If people don't like the consequences, then stop breaking the law.  Kind of like speeding... if you don't like getting tickets for speeding, then stop speeding.

Quote
Why do you always quote the wonderful way he sacrificed himself to absolve us of our sins but not carry on about the wonderful way he destroyed sin in the world the first time, i.e. by destroying all life?

As I just said above, they were warned to repent but refused.  The Old Testament is clear that God's toleration of sin is not unlimited.  Fortunately the people of Ninevah listened to the warning from Jonah.  So sometimes people listen and sometimes they don't.
Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Offline Dark_Fist

  • Freshman
  • *
  • Posts: 41
  • Darwins +0/-0
  • Gender: Female
  • Lift your skinny fists like antennas to Heaven.
Re: 10 Answers to 10 Questions
« Reply #250 on: April 19, 2009, 09:53:33 PM »
But "John", God told me that the events of the Bible are purely fictional and without any Divine meaning. Why do you insist on bringing them up as if they actually happened? Are we next going to move into a discussion about the events in the Harry Potter books? Well, that would be far more interesting and insightful.
"How do we know that our holy books are free from error? Because the books themselves say so. Epistemological black holes of this sort are fast draining the light from our world." - Sam Harris, The End Of Faith

Offline JeffPT

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2196
  • Darwins +288/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm a lead farmer mutha fucka
Re: 10 Answers to 10 Questions
« Reply #251 on: April 19, 2009, 10:29:25 PM »

Most interesting how you omitted all the warnings that God gave prior to doing those things.


Yes, warning does make mass murder and killing much more morally acceptable and loving. /rolls eyes.

You are assuming the place He left was no better than here.  I think Heaven is probably one hundred times better than life on this planet.  Every day He spent on earth must have been a trial for Him compared to His former life in Heaven.  So yea, there was a sacrifice.  Thirty three years that ended by getting killed for going around being helpful to others.  And you can't get nailed to a cross and not suffer. 


So living on earth is tantamount to suffering for God?  And if he really did get a taste of suffering, and knows what its like, then why the hell is he waiting to stop it?  He isn't suffering anymore. They took him off the cross a while back.  Yet here we are, suffering all the time.  He suffered for what, a day? 2 days?  And even if we take your conjecture about 33 years on earth being "suffering" then I ask you, what is 33 days to an eternal God?  Not even the blink of an eye.  But none of that was really the point he was making I think.  Jesus / God lost NOTHING in his sacrifice.  In order for something to be a sacrifice, then you have to have a risk of losing something.  Jesus had zero risk.  When he died, he knew he would go back up to heaven.  To a better place.  That's not risk. 

God allows suffering because to override the law of cause and effect would be too weird for words.  There are consequences for law breaking.  If people don't like the consequences, then stop breaking the law.  Kind of like speeding... if you don't like getting tickets for speeding, then stop speeding.


You are not thinking about all suffering here.  People know not to speed, so they generally avoid it.  What about the suffering we can't control?  Let's say for example... um, I dont know... Alzheimers.  Do people with that disease break some sort of law?  I didn't think so. 

And overriding the law of cause and effect would not be weird at all in a universe with an all powerful God.  In a universe WITH a God, it would be accepted as a normal occurance if someone was suffering and God fixed them.  There would be much rejoicing and acceptance as part of life and people would say "oh God is wonderful.  Look! He cured my alzheimers!"  But yeah, that doesn't happen.  It is far easier to understand why that doesn't happen when you first assume no God in the picture. 


As I just said above, they were warned to repent but refused.  The Old Testament is clear that God's toleration of sin is not unlimited.  Fortunately the people of Ninevah listened to the warning from Jonah.  So sometimes people listen and sometimes they don't.

Man are you warped. That really is a great example of the free will Christians claim we have in the eyes of God.  Repent or I will destroy everything on the planet.  Your choice, take your time.  Repent or die horribly.  Go ahead, make a good decision here.  After all, you do have free will.  You make it sound like God should have the right to destroy us all if he chooses, without consulting what WE want.  Just because he supposedly created us, where does that give him the authority to destroy us?  He put us here, he gave us free will, the ability to think, to reason and to want to live.  He is no better than a whiney child if he, at any point, felt it ok, for whatever reason to destroy all of life.  God says, "You aren't behaving, so I have to destroy all of you."  No, God does not have the right to do that.  I do not recognize anyones or anythings right to do that.  What if an alien species came to earth right now and said that THEY were the first ones to put life here? They had pictures and documentation and all that.  Do THEY have the right now to destroy it all?  I do not recognize their right either. 

It's not free will, it's an ultimatum.  God says, do X or die and burn eternally in hell.  God says, do X or I will murder your first born children.  That is NOT free will.  No matter how many times you say it is. 
Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Offline john 20:29

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 258
  • Darwins +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: 10 Answers to 10 Questions
« Reply #252 on: April 19, 2009, 11:00:31 PM »
Quote
Your logic to explain why god allows suffering in the world is all over the place.  first you say this:

Quote
Quote from: john 20:29 on April 15, 2009, 08:07:56 AM
if He was to heal everyone and stop all suffering, you would have a planet full of people breaking His laws without consequences.  In other words, you would have people behaving badly with nothing bad happening.

Quote
Which implies that suffering in this world is a deterrent to sin.

Yes, it is a deterrent to some extent, but that is not the reason God allows suffering.  He allows it because it goes against all reason to override the law of cause and effect.  He allows it because to override suffering would make His law null and void... after all, who needs it if you can do whatever you want without consequences, without suffering?  Without the law there would be no sin, no evil.  Without the law and the consequences for breaking it, who needs to grow?  Someone could drive like a total lunatic running red lights and going through stop signs and they and everyone around them would still get to their destination safely.  What kind of a world is that?

Quote
So that starving children in India, massive tsunamis, amputees, etc., etc., exist as a way for god to keep a lid on sin in the world.  Because if these kids were fed, if the 100,000+ killed by the tsunami were alive today, if amputees could just grow back their limbs, then people would go around breaking commandments willy-nilly without thinking twice about it.  Re-read your words carefully.  This is what exactly what you're saying.

No this is not what I'm saying.  This situation is different.  When people place themselves in an earthquake, tornado, hurricane, flood zone, or any other type of high risk area- who is to blame?  If you try to defy the laws of nature, sooner or later, depending on the level of risk you take on, you will probably suffer the consequences.  When dirt poor people in India breed like rabbits... who's to blame? 

I don't mean to sound unkind, I feel for suffering children (and adults for that matter) and victims of natural disasters, but a lot of that is brought on by the bad decisions of human beings, and that also makes me sad... it is regrettable.  Some people are just not very bright... they make bad decisions.  Like most Americans I also felt terrible for the victims of Hurricane Katrina.  And like most people my wife and I made a donation.  I was in New Orleans back in 1999... my wife and I loved it and thought it might be a nice place to live someday.  Then we found out it was two or three feet below sea level, and we said "forget that!"  Why someone would choose to live in a place that is in the path of hurricanes and is several feet below sea level is beyond me.  We moved a few years ago and before settling into our potential new area, I checked the Hazard Map.  I was careful not to place my family in a risky area.

Quote
Then you go on to state this:

Quote
suffering is not God's punishment for breaking His laws, it's merely a byproduct of it.  We punish ourselves when we break His law.  Think of a really obese person who has problems even walking because of all the weight they are lugging around.  Did God punish them, or did they punish themselves with their excessive intake?  Why does God always get stuck taking the blame for the bad behavior of the human race?  He gave His instruction manual (the Bible) to help us run our lives... then when we don't bother following its instructions and go off half cocked on our own and make a mess of things- He gets the blame.

Quote
So now, the little girl who dying of leukemia is suffering because she brought it on herself, the way a fat person gets that way from eating too much.  Got it.

No, you don't got it.  How on earth can you compare someone overeating to some poor little girl that gets leukemia is beyond me.  The over eater brought it on themselves, the little girl is a victim.  No comparison. 

Quote
But then:

Quote
But He does love us, and because of that will alleviate suffering someday when He comes back to earth.

So it's not that he is allowing suffering in the world because it helps deter people from going overboard with their sinning.  It's not because starving and dying little children bring it on themselves by overindulging.  It's not that he is allowing suffering at all.  He's just taking a break and he's gonna alleviate suffering when he comes back someday.  Crystal clear.

If I'm hearing you right in this post of yours, you seem to have a big issue with suffering that results from victimization.  Well, so do I.  It's the worse type of suffering there is.  The little girl you described above epitomizes one of the biggest tragedies on planet earth- people who did nothing wrong, but get a raw deal.  As I've said before, I deal with this sort of thing by looking to Jesus on the cross.  He also did nothing wrong and like the little girl, also got a raw deal.  That's how I cope with it.  If it wasn't for Jesus also suffering with humanity, I don't know if I could be a Christian.  And He promises to come back someday and put an end to this crazy place... so I cope.
Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Offline john 20:29

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 258
  • Darwins +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: 10 Answers to 10 Questions
« Reply #253 on: April 20, 2009, 10:52:54 AM »
Quote
Quote
Most interesting how you omitted all the warnings that God gave prior to doing those things.

Yes, warning does make mass murder and killing much more morally acceptable and loving. /rolls eyes.

The Bible says the potter has power over the clay.  God forbids us to kill in Exodus 20 because He alone- as the Life Giver- has the right to take it away.  We have no right to play God and take life.  If you argue the same applies to God, then you make Him a mere man such as ourselves.

Quote
Quote
You are assuming the place He left was no better than here.  I think Heaven is probably one hundred times better than life on this planet.  Every day He spent on earth must have been a trial for Him compared to His former life in Heaven.  So yea, there was a sacrifice.  Thirty three years that ended by getting killed for going around being helpful to others.  And you can't get nailed to a cross and not suffer.
 

So living on earth is tantamount to suffering for God?  And if he really did get a taste of suffering, and knows what its like, then why the hell is he waiting to stop it?  He isn't suffering anymore. They took him off the cross a while back.  Yet here we are, suffering all the time.  He suffered for what, a day? 2 days?  And even if we take your conjecture about 33 years on earth being "suffering" then I ask you, what is 33 days to an eternal God?  Not even the blink of an eye.  But none of that was really the point he was making I think.  Jesus / God lost NOTHING in his sacrifice.  In order for something to be a sacrifice, then you have to have a risk of losing something.  Jesus had zero risk.  When he died, he knew he would go back up to heaven.  To a better place.  That's not risk.
 

There is much more at stake here than you think.  Satan rebelled in heaven and God did not kill him.  Have you ever wondered why?  I believe it's because if He had killed Him some of the remaining Angels would have served Him from fear.  Rebellion was something new and mysterious.  God wants all to obey His law from love, because they see that His law is good.  So God has let Satan work out the principles of his kingdom.  After thousands of years it's become clear that Satan's government consists of selfishness and the resulting sin and suffering.  God has allowed this experiment with sin to continue because He wants His Angels and all human beings to see that a societal system based on selfishness does not work.  He wants us to serve and love one another.  My point is there is more at stake here than our individual pain and suffering.  The future peace of the universe is at stake.  Only those who see sin for the abhorrent thing that it is and renounce it will be allowed to inherit the New Earth.  The lost will be despised and will suffer eternal condemnation for their stubborn adherence to a failed system of government.
 
Quote
Quote
God allows suffering because to override the law of cause and effect would be too weird for words.  There are consequences for law breaking.  If people don't like the consequences, then stop breaking the law.  Kind of like speeding... if you don't like getting tickets for speeding, then stop speeding.

You are not thinking about all suffering here.  People know not to speed, so they generally avoid it.  What about the suffering we can't control?  Let's say for example... um, I dont know... Alzheimers.  Do people with that disease break some sort of law?  I didn't think so.

And overriding the law of cause and effect would not be weird at all in a universe with an all powerful God.  In a universe WITH a God, it would be accepted as a normal occurance if someone was suffering and God fixed them.  There would be much rejoicing and acceptance as part of life and people would say "oh God is wonderful.  Look! He cured my alzheimers!"  But yeah, that doesn't happen.  It is far easier to understand why that doesn't happen when you first assume no God in the picture. 


As I said in another post, people like this are the truest victims on planet earth.  If Adam and Eve had not chosen to disobey God, we would all have access to the Tree of Life and no one would suffer from this disease, let alone ever die.

Quote
Quote
As I just said above, they were warned to repent but refused.  The Old Testament is clear that God's toleration of sin is not unlimited.  Fortunately the people of Ninevah listened to the warning from Jonah.  So sometimes people listen and sometimes they don't.

Man are you warped. That really is a great example of the free will Christians claim we have in the eyes of God.  Repent or I will destroy everything on the planet.  Your choice, take your time.  Repent or die horribly.  Go ahead, make a good decision here.  After all, you do have free will.  You make it sound like God should have the right to destroy us all if he chooses, without consulting what WE want.  Just because he supposedly created us, where does that give him the authority to destroy us?  He put us here, he gave us free will, the ability to think, to reason and to want to live.  He is no better than a whiney child if he, at any point, felt it ok, for whatever reason to destroy all of life.  God says, "You aren't behaving, so I have to destroy all of you."  No, God does not have the right to do that.  I do not recognize anyones or anythings right to do that.  What if an alien species came to earth right now and said that THEY were the first ones to put life here? They had pictures and documentation and all that.  Do THEY have the right now to destroy it all?  I do not recognize their right either.

I'm warped?  Listen...your rights stop where my begin.  You talk about your rights, but what about my rights?  I want to live in a world free of murderes, liers, thieves and rapists... free of child molesters, war mongers, pornography, and violence.  You can go ahead and stick up for the rights of people who do such things, but God will put an end to it.  I will be among those who hold these sins and the people who commit them into everlasting contempt.  You Atheists keep touting your rights, but what about the rights of the victims who suffer under the sinful behavior of others?  That recent war a few months back where Russia attacked some surrounding country for a few weeks... I saw a picture of some poor woman sitting amidst the rubble of some building that had just got blown up.  She looked like a mess... one of her hands was stretched out in a plea for help.  It made me so mad to see that... I was furious (the Bible does allow for righteous indignation).  I showed it to my wife and I told her, 'look at her, she was probably just cooking a meal for her family and then pow!... the warmongers come around and make her life miserable'.  I'm sick of this place!  I have it pretty good where I live, but I'm sick of all the evil I hear on the news.  

Quote
It's not free will, it's an ultimatum.  God says, do X or die and burn eternally in hell.  God says, do X or I will murder your first born children.  That is NOT free will.  No matter how many times you say it is.

It is freewill or else you would not have the choice to say no to God.
Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Offline Aaron123

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2791
  • Darwins +80/-1
  • Gender: Male
Re: 10 Answers to 10 Questions
« Reply #254 on: April 20, 2009, 11:25:22 AM »
Quote
The Bible says the potter has power over the clay.  God forbids us to kill in Exodus 20 because He alone- as the Life Giver- has the right to take it away.  We have no right to play God and take life.  If you argue the same applies to God, then you make Him a mere man such as ourselves.

In short; god can do whatever the bloody hell he wants.  Gotcha.


Quote
There is much more at stake here than you think.  Satan rebelled in heaven and God did not kill him.  Have you ever wondered why?  I believe it's because if He had killed Him some of the remaining Angels would have served Him from fear.

If so much is at stake, why just assume you have the right idea?  Why not gather evidence to back up your claims?


Quote
I want to live in a world free of murderes, liers, thieves and rapists... free of child molesters, war mongers, pornography, and violence.  You can go ahead and stick up for the rights of people who do such things, but God will put an end to it. 

2,000+ years, and we're still waiting...
Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.

Offline velkyn

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 17043
  • Darwins +336/-19
  • Gender: Female
  • You're wearing the juice, aren't you?"
Re: 10 Answers to 10 Questions
« Reply #255 on: April 20, 2009, 01:59:44 PM »
come on John, answer this:

Quote
Oh, and do please tell me where lying about where hiding refugees are is something that results in suffering.  Come on, it must cause some since you claim that Jesus came to save us from sining against the "law". 

oh and
Quote
The Bible says the potter has power over the clay.  God forbids us to kill in Exodus 20 because He alone- as the Life Giver- has the right to take it away.  We have no right to play God and take life.  If you argue the same applies to God, then you make Him a mere man such as ourselves.

so, why does God tell people to kill other people if it's only up to him and take lives? 
"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

http://clubschadenfreude.wordpress.com/

Offline Positiveaob

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1059
  • Darwins +5/-0
Re: 10 Answers to 10 Questions
« Reply #256 on: April 20, 2009, 02:02:20 PM »
Yes, it is a deterrent to some extent, but that is not the reason God allows suffering.  He allows it because it goes against all reason to override the law of cause and effect.  He allows it because to override suffering would make His law null and void... after all, who needs it if you can do whatever you want without consequences, without suffering?  Without the law there would be no sin, no evil.  Without the law and the consequences for breaking it, who needs to grow?  Someone could drive like a total lunatic running red lights and going through stop signs and they and everyone around them would still get to their destination safely.  What kind of a world is that?

So, you're saying he allows it because it's a deterrent.  Plain and simple.  

Quote
When people place themselves in an earthquake, tornado, hurricane, flood zone, or any other type of high risk area- who is to blame?  If you try to defy the laws of nature, sooner or later, depending on the level of risk you take on, you will probably suffer the consequences.  When dirt poor people in India breed like rabbits... who's to blame?  
I think I am clearly wasting my time arguing over a statement as absolutely ridiculous, and quite offensive, as this.  I'll just let it stand on its own ignorance.

Quote
suffering is not God's punishment for breaking His laws, it's merely a byproduct of it.  We punish ourselves when we break His law.  Think of a really obese person who has problems even walking because of all the weight they are lugging around.  Did God punish them, or did they punish themselves with their excessive intake?  
Quote
So now, the little girl who dying of leukemia is suffering because she brought it on herself, the way a fat person gets that way from eating too much.  Got it.
Quote
No, you don't got it.  How on earth can you compare someone overeating to some poor little girl that gets leukemia is beyond me.  The over eater brought it on themselves, the little girl is a victim.  No comparison. 

I dont think a little girl with leukemia is at all like an obese person who got that way from overeating.  It was YOU who stated suffering was a byproduct of breaking god's laws such as an obese person who cant walk because he has eaten too much.  And since the suffering we were referring too at the beginning of this conversation dealt with innocent children starving or with horrible disease, then it is YOU who are making that comparison.  I was merely pointing out how ridiculous your logic is.  

And dont start thinking that you are taking the high ground.  I am not the one who thinks poor people in India bring it on themselves because they "breed like rabbits."  I am not the one who thinks the tsunami victims brought it on themselves because they were crazy enough to live remotely close to the Indian Ocean.  

Quote
If I'm hearing you right in this post of yours, you seem to have a big issue with suffering that results from victimization.  Well, so do I.  It's the worse type of suffering there is.  The little girl you described above epitomizes one of the biggest tragedies on planet earth- people who did nothing wrong, but get a raw deal.  As I've said before, I deal with this sort of thing by looking to Jesus on the cross.  He also did nothing wrong and like the little girl, also got a raw deal.  That's how I cope with it.  If it wasn't for Jesus also suffering with humanity, I don't know if I could be a Christian.  And He promises to come back someday and put an end to this crazy place... so I cope.
But wait, at this beginning of this post suffering was created by god as a deterrance to sin.  No, no, it's because people are stupid to live anywhere near the coastline of south Asia or in New Orleans.  No, actually because poor people in India "breed like rabbits."  Oh, okay, now I get it, it's because we live in "crazy place" and just cant wait until god decides to "put an end" to it.  

You do realize that the foundation of your belief is that your god was the one who created this place?  Was this just a big experiment of his because he was bored with eternity?  Created this crazy place and after a while got sick of it so he wiped everything out with the big flood, got sick of it again so he came down and sacrificed himself to himself back to heaven, then eventually he'll get fed up with his creation and destroy it because "He promises to come back someday and put an end to this crazy place."  

I think your reasoning is all over the place, nonsensical, contradictory, and at times extremely offensive.  I am moving on.
If you desire peace of soul and happiness, then believe; if you would be a disciple of truth, then inquire. - Neitzsche

Support the Military Religious Freedom Foundation!