Author Topic: A question for any theist.  (Read 8612 times)

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Offline xTigerx

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Re: A question for any theist.
« Reply #29 on: April 01, 2009, 03:21:14 PM »
Are you willing to concede that the available evidence for the human body exceeds the available evidence for any gods?

No. Thanks for asking.

Wow, Jman's views go beyond solipsism.  In fact, it's encouraging delusion.

LOL. Way beyond solipsism?
Encouraging delusion is interesting. More interesting that you don't dare quote where you see me (actively) encouraging delusion.

The bolded portion is evidence you encourage delusion.  If you want me to cite from your previous post, then I'll be glad to.

Feel free, one and all, to cite available evidence, that you feel is objectively establishing existence of physical. I think you already realize how I may question and/or disagree with particular claims, but I do feel open to considerations on this. If you feel the evidence is not objective, but is still there, I'd be glad to hear your thoughts on this.

You use terms that you say don't meaningfully exist.  Is there a reason for this?

By the way the physical by definition exists.  We're physical.  There's your proof.  If you want to change the definition of physical fit your delusion, go ahead.  Don't be surprised if I call you on it though.

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By the way Jdude, can you stop referring to yourself in the third person?

I can. I may not.

lmao wtf? Fail.

How many times have you seen me do this?

Maybe three or more times.

And why does it (apparently) not sit well with you?

When people refer to themselves in the third person it annoys me.  Unless they're joking around, which you don't seem to be doing.

How about you refrain from summing up Jman's views in public discourse in ways that come across as disparaging?

Not my fault you can't take criticism.  If you put your views out there, expect them to be ravaged.  Of course, if you can show where I'm unnecessarily harsh I may tone it down a bit.

I know you can. I know you may not.

You can and will continue to fail.  Or not.  Up to you.  Does my insult feel real?  It may not be though.
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Offline ksm

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Re: A question for any theist.
« Reply #30 on: April 01, 2009, 05:58:39 PM »
Are you willing to concede that the available evidence for the human body exceeds the available evidence for any gods?

No. Thanks for asking.

Oookay.

>ksm quietly backs out the door<

Offline I_fight_stupidity

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Re: A question for any theist.
« Reply #31 on: April 01, 2009, 06:37:03 PM »
So are Jman's beliefs like saying that the water in a cup is definatly real, but the cup and everything outside of it may not be?           

Offline velkyn

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Re: A question for any theist.
« Reply #32 on: April 01, 2009, 06:49:49 PM »
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Feel free, one and all, to cite available evidence, that you feel is objectively establishing existence of physical. I think you already realize how I may question and/or disagree with particular claims, but I do feel open to considerations on this. If you feel the evidence is not objective, but is still there, I'd be glad to hear your thoughts on this.

please grasp a yellow-hot bar of iron in your bare hand.  I know reality well enough not to do so. If physicality does not exist, you should have no problem in doing so.  This is the problem, for all your claims, you do not live your life any different than the rest of us. 
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Offline ksm

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Re: A question for any theist.
« Reply #33 on: April 01, 2009, 06:53:05 PM »
Indeed Jman, you talk the talk, but will you walk the walk?

Offline Jman

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Re: A question for any theist.
« Reply #34 on: April 02, 2009, 01:49:56 AM »
You use terms that you say don't meaningfully exist.  Is there a reason for this?

Yes.

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By the way the physical by definition exists.  We're physical.  There's your proof.  If you want to change the definition of physical fit your delusion, go ahead.  Don't be surprised if I call you on it though.

While I don't subscribe to this, what you are saying is like: God exists. Bible is God's Word. There's your proof. If you want to change the definition of God's Word to fit your delusion, go ahead. Don't be surprised if I whine and moan like a little school girl.

We're spiritual. There's your proof.
LOL. And you call me delusional?


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When people refer to themselves in the third person it annoys me.  Unless they're joking around, which you don't seem to be doing.

Jman isn't trying to annoy you.
Unless he is.  ;)

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How about you refrain from summing up Jman's views in public discourse in ways that come across as disparaging?

Not my fault you can't take criticism. 

Dude, I can take the criticism. I understand what it is really about. I feel it detracts from respectful discussion, but I'll be alright if resorting to name calling is part of "the best you got."

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If you put your views out there, expect them to be ravaged.  Of course, if you can show where I'm unnecessarily harsh I may tone it down a bit.

"Unnecessarily harsh" is not something I find adversaries are likely to agree to. So, thank G for forum moderators. If you are unnecessarily harsh, over the line harsh, then I'm sure it will be brought to your attention.

How about "harsh at all" and you consider toning it down a bit?
Perhaps if you do, I could see Jman toning down on the 3rd person thing. Oh LOL.


Offline Jman

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Re: A question for any theist.
« Reply #35 on: April 02, 2009, 02:04:03 AM »
please grasp a yellow-hot bar of iron in your bare hand.  I know reality well enough not to do so. If physicality does not exist, you should have no problem in doing so.  This is the problem, for all your claims, you do not live your life any different than the rest of us. 

I have stated that I am in a body. Like in night dreams, I am in a body. If in night dream *you* asked me to grasp a yellow-hot bar of iron in your bare hand, I would think I am unlikely to do so. Why? Because physicality (in that paradigm) is real? Or because I perceive I am in a body and believe that bodies experience pain, and I just assume avoid pain, as desired.

I'm not saying physicality doesn't exist. I'm saying the evidence is not objective, thus subjective, thus imaginary. Imaginary things kinda sorta exist. If I talk about Santa Claus, you likely can relate to what I am referring to. Perhaps it conjures up images, even experiences for you. Things that others would say is based on something that doesn't exist. Santa Claus is conceptual. I'm implying that (evidence of) human body is conceptual. The available evidence points to this, IMO. Pain within the conceptual paradigm does feel real to me, because of attachment to the body. Seeing the body as the entirety of my being is delusional IMO. Not the only thing that I would call delusional. Just something I would rather explore beyond what's on the surface. I believe that unexamined acceptance of the self as physical is actually a cornerstone of orthodox religions. I realize that this may not make sense, initially, to the atheistic or agnostic critical thinker.

Offline GamerGirl

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Re: A question for any theist.
« Reply #36 on: April 02, 2009, 03:21:25 AM »
I prayed as a child for God to save me from evil, to befriend me when I had no friends.   I had no school friends, no true ones.  Even they picked on me... After praying for a friend, in fourth grade, I finally found one.  A true one! But my father spoiled it.  However, God answered a prayer of mine.... That's all that mattered.


   :o ditto for the awful sh!t you have been through! Would you feel differently about your life if you realized that God really did not exist? That you survived because you are strong and intelligent? That the people who befriended you and helped you along the way did so because they are good people? That none of this has any supernatural element at all? When you attribute your success to magical beings, you are just denying your own power. You go, GamerGirl!

GamerGirl, I was introverted like you and I still am. :D I am GLAD you are one of those people who see the irrationality of sending good people to Hell. Oh, and what "mommykicksbutt" said.

GG, You are making excuses for god.  What I see actually happening in your life is that your own actions, self-worth, strength, and determination got you your good position in life now, not a capricious, fair-weathered god.

Quotes like these, and like several others that come from Atheists, makes me want to cry for theists who have sealed their hearts away from meeting people with different beliefs than their own. 

However, the reason why I continue to believe is because I continue to see good things happen in spite of poor circumstances.  I've witnessed life and death, called a code blue in OR before as an intern, performed CPR twice (once on a dead body and once on a choking body).  I have been in places where people have prayed and because they had faith in an idea and a strong will to live, they pulled through.  I have no idea whether or not that means God exists.  However, I still choose to devote my life to a purpose greater than myself and believing in God just allows me not to feel selfish and take all the credit for the feats I accomplish.

I see something in the world, I think it to be love, that binds people together.  Some people attribute a spiritual entity to that, others do not.  As long as religion does not hurt people, then I am okay with religion.  However, I strongly believe in disestablishment for politics and religion.  So, I support more atheistic political movements than I do Christian ones.

Abortion, stem cell research, gay marriage, protests, I support loads of things like that in my spare time.

Offline xTigerx

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Re: A question for any theist.
« Reply #37 on: April 02, 2009, 07:51:59 AM »
You use terms that you say don't meaningfully exist.  Is there a reason for this?

Yes.

...and that would be?

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By the way the physical by definition exists.  We're physical.  There's your proof.  If you want to change the definition of physical fit your delusion, go ahead.  Don't be surprised if I call you on it though.

While I don't subscribe to this, what you are saying is like: God exists. Bible is God's Word. There's your proof. If you want to change the definition of God's Word to fit your delusion, go ahead. Don't be surprised if I whine and moan like a little school girl.

We're spiritual. There's your proof.
LOL. And you call me delusional?

Except God isn't a concept or a term.  It's an actual entity.  Physical is a term used to describe us and the universe we live in.  As such, we're proof the physical exists.  If you use the term aphysical to describe us and the universe we live in, then we would be proof that aphysical exists.  You'd be causing unnecessary confusion, but you wouldn't be wrong that the "aphysical" exists.

Same if you say God is Love.  Love would be evidence of "God"; of course God would be meaningless though.

Sorry if you can't grasp the difference between proof of a concept and proof of an entity.

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When people refer to themselves in the third person it annoys me.  Unless they're joking around, which you don't seem to be doing.

Jman isn't trying to annoy you.
Unless he is.  ;)

If you want to continue, go ahead.  Was just asking you to stop.  If you can't, then I'll tolerate it.

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How about you refrain from summing up Jman's views in public discourse in ways that come across as disparaging?

Not my fault you can't take criticism. 

Dude, I can take the criticism. I understand what it is really about. I feel it detracts from respectful discussion, but I'll be alright if resorting to name calling is part of "the best you got."

Name calling?  Haha when did I call you names?  It's sad that theists don't know the difference between name-calling and pointing out that an argument is stupid.

Hey, Jman, can you spot the difference between:

-Your argument is stupid.
-You're stupid.
?

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If you put your views out there, expect them to be ravaged.  Of course, if you can show where I'm unnecessarily harsh I may tone it down a bit.

"Unnecessarily harsh" is not something I find adversaries are likely to agree to. So, thank G for forum moderators. If you are unnecessarily harsh, over the line harsh, then I'm sure it will be brought to your attention.

How about "harsh at all" and you consider toning it down a bit?
Perhaps if you do, I could see Jman toning down on the 3rd person thing. Oh LOL.

How about this: you continue to refer to yourself however you like and I use whatever tone I like?
God, if you're real, show yourself.  ...still waiting...
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Offline velkyn

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Re: A question for any theist.
« Reply #38 on: April 02, 2009, 11:36:44 AM »
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please grasp a yellow-hot bar of iron in your bare hand.  I know reality well enough not to do so. If physicality does not exist, you should have no problem in doing so.  This is the problem, for all your claims, you do not live your life any different than the rest of us. 
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I have stated that I am in a body. Like in night dreams, I am in a body. If in night dream *you* asked me to grasp a yellow-hot bar of iron in your bare hand, I would think I am unlikely to do so. Why? Because physicality (in that paradigm) is real? Or because I perceive I am in a body and believe that bodies experience pain, and I just assume avoid pain, as desired.

Ah, lovely. You have gone from this
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Feel free, one and all, to cite available evidence, that you feel is objectively establishing existence of physical. I think you already realize how I may question and/or disagree with particular claims, but I do feel open to considerations on this. If you feel the evidence is not objective, but is still there, I'd be glad to hear your thoughts on this.

To now claiming that somehow we suddenly share the same supposedly subjective existence of the physical, that paradigm.  However, why should we if things are subjective? 
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I'm not saying physicality doesn't exist. I'm saying the evidence is not objective, thus subjective, thus imaginary. Imaginary things kinda sorta exist. If I talk about Santa Claus, you likely can relate to what I am referring to. Perhaps it conjures up images, even experiences for you. Things that others would say is based on something that doesn't exist. Santa Claus is conceptual. I'm implying that (evidence of) human body is conceptual. The available evidence points to this, IMO. Pain within the conceptual paradigm does feel real to me, because of attachment to the body. Seeing the body as the entirety of my being is delusional IMO. Not the only thing that I would call delusional. Just something I would rather explore beyond what's on the surface. I believe that unexamined acceptance of the self as physical is actually a cornerstone of orthodox religions. I realize that this may not make sense, initially, to the atheistic or agnostic critical thinker.
You now claim that it is the "evidence" that is subjective. If so, then you still shouldn't have a problem in grasping that hot iron bar.  I'm sure if you did, you'd be burnt to the bone and I would see that and yuo would see that and so would everyone else.  You would have the added benefit of agony to show you how real the evidence was. 

If you talk about Santa, I know that the concept of Santa exists.  However, the concept of something and the actuality of it are two different things.  Santa as existential being does not exist.  Similarly, I can see that the concept of heaven, God and a soul exist but you claim that they are actual things.  So, are the claims of Santa as being "real" and your "soul" being real equal?   
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Offline Wade

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Re: A question for any theist.
« Reply #39 on: April 02, 2009, 03:59:59 PM »
     What compels you to believe?

     With no physical evidence and basing your life on a book that you believe is special and original, why do you turn a blind eye towards the evidence your are afraid of? 
I don't think anyone will ever fully explain how the universe came into existence, yet "evidently" it exists.  Let's assume there was a BIG BANG some billions of years ago.  Has anyone been able to explain where all this matter came from to be exploded?  Some scientists believe that there will be another BIG BANG sometime in the future (not like tomorrow) once the universe has finished expanding and begins to swallow itself up in continually growing black holes.  Has this process ALWAYS happened? 
Why is it so hard for athiets to completely deny that some kind of physical or spiritual being (that Christians call God) may not have been in existence to set the whole thing in motion?  If God does exist, the evidence is the manifestation of the universe itself.  Does God need to "prove" something to you or me?  Let me ask you, do you think you have to "prove" anything to me, or I to you?  Christianity is "faith-based."  You either believe there is a God (which you can't prove) or you don't.  I have faith that God exists.  Atheism is faith-based.  You either believe there is no God (which you can't prove), or you don't.  You have faith that God does not exist.

As far as basing one's life on a book:  After reading many different books: Bible, Quran, What the Budda Taught, D&C, and too many wholeistic, self-help, meditating, I'm OK You're OK, touchy-feely, lets-all-live-happily-ever-after stuff to list... there is one thing about the Bible that stands out among all the rest - if you read it and study it and apply it perfectly, it makes absolute sense.  The problem is, no one, not even the Christians, know how to apply it perfectly, because we are all imperfect.  But lots of people are good at misinterpreting, twisting the text, and adapting what they read in the Bible to fit their own personal views whether they are believers or not.  Christians of different denominations have abused Scripture as much as anyone.

Re: "evidence you are afraid of:"  I'm not sure what "evidence" (or lack of it) you are referring to.  If you are referring to the physical evidence that proves the non-exsistance of God - there is none.  If you are referring to the physical evidence to prove the existance of God - I'll refer you back to my second paragraph (the evidence of God exists in His manifestations).
 

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: A question for any theist.
« Reply #40 on: April 02, 2009, 05:04:45 PM »
     What compels you to believe?

     With no physical evidence and basing your life on a book that you believe is special and original, why do you turn a blind eye towards the evidence your are afraid of? 
Why is it so hard for athiets to completely deny that some kind of physical or spiritual being (that Christians call God) may not have been in existence to set the whole thing in motion?  If God does exist, the evidence is the manifestation of the universe itself.  Does God need to "prove" something to you or me?  Let me ask you, do you think you have to "prove" anything to me, or I to you?  Christianity is "faith-based."  You either believe there is a God (which you can't prove) or you don't.  I have faith that God exists.  Atheism is faith-based.  You either believe there is no God (which you can't prove), or you don't.  You have faith that God does not exist.

I don't deny the possibility that "some kind of physical or spiritual being"  created everything. I just have not been convinced by the evidence that has been presented. The universe itself does not have any obvious meaning attached to it other than its own existence. There is no giant arrow pointing out of the cosmos towards Christianity, or any other religion. If there was, everyone in the world would believe in the same religion, hands down. Just like everyone believes in water.

Atheism is NOT faith-based. It is evidence based. I don't know for a fact if there is a god or not. No, I have not looked in every part of the universe to check. Just like I have not looked everywhere to see if there are trolls, fairies or vampires. Based on the available evidence, I don't believe there are any supernatural, magical beings. If there are, they hide very well.
When all of Cinderella's finery changed back at midnight, why didn't the shoes disappear? What's up with that?

Offline I_fight_stupidity

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Re: A question for any theist.
« Reply #41 on: April 02, 2009, 07:01:58 PM »
Wade, it requires no faith to believe gods of any kind are non exsistant.  We have actual evidence of our claims.  In fact, scientists are able to test theories such as The Big Bang with the LHC.

(I swear, these Christians are using the "extra-chromosome" style of debating)

Offline holybuckets

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Re: A question for any theist.
« Reply #42 on: April 02, 2009, 11:43:06 PM »
what compels you not to believe?

Offline I_fight_stupidity

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Re: A question for any theist.
« Reply #43 on: April 03, 2009, 12:18:32 AM »
I don't believe because... I started reading the bible, I started to listen closer in church, I started looking at the beliefs of other rel igions,  I never had a truely answered prayer... the list can grow larger and I will explain every reason i give if you would like.

Offline sam

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Re: A question for any theist.
« Reply #44 on: April 03, 2009, 01:17:08 AM »
Wade, it requires no faith to believe gods of any kind are non exsistant.  We have actual evidence of our claims.  In fact, scientists are able to test theories such as The Big Bang with the LHC.

(I swear, these Christians are using the "extra-chromosome" style of debating)

So you believe the Big Bang is fact?

Offline I_fight_stupidity

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Re: A question for any theist.
« Reply #45 on: April 03, 2009, 06:10:55 AM »
Yes, I do believe The Big Bang Theory is fact.  There are other scientific  theories that intrest me, however.  (They are evidence based theories.)

Offline Wade

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Re: A question for any theist.
« Reply #46 on: April 03, 2009, 09:12:28 AM »
    I don't deny the possibility that "some kind of physical or spiritual being"  created everything.
Atheism is NOT faith-based. It is evidence based. I don't know for a fact if there is a god or not.
Wade, it requires no faith to believe gods of any kind are non exsistant.  We have actual evidence of our claims. 
Yes, I do believe The Big Bang Theory is fact.  There are other scientific  theories that intrest me, however.  (They are evidence based theories.)

Are these statements contradictory?  On what "physical" evidence do you base your claim that God does not exist? 
I consider Christianity to be faith-based - not on physical evidence, but in a hope.  The evidence I see, as I stated earlier, is in the manifestations of this belief and how it is practiced and carried out.
Do you "hope" there is no God?
Without getting into a debate on whether or not "theories" are fact, the Big Bang still has nothing to do with how all of the matter of the universe came into existence in the first place.  It (this matter) had to be there to explode into galaxies, planets, suns, and cosmic dust.  Where did it come from?
There are plenty of theories that interest me, but no theory has been proven to explain how this matter came into being.


Offline Aaron123

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Re: A question for any theist.
« Reply #47 on: April 03, 2009, 09:54:38 AM »
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On what "physical" evidence do you base your claim that God does not exist? 

More like there's a lack of evidence that god exist.

On what "physical" evidence do you base your claim that God Zeus does not exist?  When you look at why you consider Zeus/Ra/Horus/Shiva/Flying Spaghetti Monster to be imaginary, you'll understand why we don't think Yahweh exist.


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Do you "hope" there is no God?

That's not the case.  If there is rock solid evidence for the existance of Yahweh or any other gods, we'll listen.


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the Big Bang still has nothing to do with how all of the matter of the universe came into existence in the first place.  It (this matter) had to be there to explode into galaxies, planets, suns, and cosmic dust.  Where did it come from?

Nobody knows.  The Big Bang Theory is about how the universe as we know it came into being.  It does not, nor does it intend to, explain where matter came from in the first place.  This gap in our knowledge is no reason to assume that goddidit.
Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.

Offline velkyn

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Re: A question for any theist.
« Reply #48 on: April 03, 2009, 02:01:34 PM »
Are these statements contradictory?  On what "physical" evidence do you base your claim that God does not exist? 
I consider Christianity to be faith-based - not on physical evidence, but in a hope.  The evidence I see, as I stated earlier, is in the manifestations of this belief and how it is practiced and carried out.
Do you "hope" there is no God?
Without getting into a debate on whether or not "theories" are fact, the Big Bang still has nothing to do with how all of the matter of the universe came into existence in the first place.  It (this matter) had to be there to explode into galaxies, planets, suns, and cosmic dust.  Where did it come from?
There are plenty of theories that interest me, but no theory has been proven to explain how this matter came into being.

If your God is as described by the Bible, where is the evidence of all his supposed interaction wtih the world?  Your God used interaction to prove his existence and what he claimed to be.  As much as Christians claim that their religon is based on "faith" and "hope", it is not that at all and never was.

I find it hilarious that you said "Big Bang still has nothing to do with how all of the matter of the universe came into existence in the first place".  My dear, that is what it has to do with.  Do you not understand what the BBT is? 

Now, I find the BBT to be a very good theory, that fits all available evidence. However, like all good theories, evidence could disprove it or modify it.
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Offline none

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Re: A question for any theist.
« Reply #49 on: April 03, 2009, 02:24:25 PM »
from what I remeber the big bang theroy never mentions creation; it says at one time there was a particle of infinite density and mass that changed.

Offline velkyn

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Re: A question for any theist.
« Reply #50 on: April 03, 2009, 02:56:09 PM »
from what I remeber the big bang theroy never mentions creation; it says at one time there was a particle of infinite density and mass that changed.

this is more what I was going wtih

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According to the standard theory, our universe sprang into existence as "singularity" around 13.7 billion years ago. What is a "singularity" and where does it come from? Well, to be honest, we don't know for sure. Singularities are zones which defy our current understanding of physics. They are thought to exist at the core of "black holes." Black holes are areas of intense gravitational pressure. The pressure is thought to be so intense that finite matter is actually squished into infinite density (a mathematical concept which truly boggles the mind). These zones of infinite density are called "singularities." Our universe is thought to have begun as an infinitesimally small, infinitely hot, infinitely dense, something - a singularity. Where did it come from? We don't know. Why did it appear? We don't know.
http://www.big-bang-theory.com/
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Offline Wade

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Re: A question for any theist.
« Reply #51 on: April 03, 2009, 03:00:42 PM »
velkyn:  “If your God is as described by the Bible, where is the evidence of all his supposed interaction wtih the world?  Your God used interaction to prove his existence and what he claimed to be.  As much as Christians claim that their religon is based on "faith" and "hope", it is not that at all and never was."

The evidence Christians see is what most atheists call “coincidence.” 

"I find it hilarious that you said "Big Bang still has nothing to do with how all of the matter of the universe came into existence in the first place".  My dear, that is what it has to do with.  Do you not understand what the BBT is?”

I certainly do understand what the BBT is.  It does not explain where universal matter came from, it says what happened to it.

Aaron123:  “On what "physical" evidence do you base your claim that God Zeus does not exist?  When you look at why you consider Zeus/Ra/Horus/Shiva/Flying Spaghetti Monster to be imaginary, you'll understand why we don't think Yahweh exist."
 
Maybe Zeus, et. al. do exist.  I have no physical evidence to prove or disprove.

"Nobody knows.  The Big Bang Theory is about how the universe as we know it came into being.  It does not, nor does it intend to, explain where matter came from in the first place.  This gap in our knowledge is no reason to assume that goddidit.”

Thank you, Aaron – Nobody knows (and I’ll bet we don’t find out until we die, and even then, if there is no God or Zeus, we won’t know).  This gap in our knowledge is no reason to assume that God didn’t do it either.


Offline Dkit

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Re: A question for any theist.
« Reply #52 on: April 03, 2009, 03:06:28 PM »
Without getting into a debate on whether or not "theories" are fact, the Big Bang still has nothing to do with how all of the matter of the universe came into existence in the first place.  It (this matter) had to be there to explode into galaxies, planets, suns, and cosmic dust.  Where did it come from?
There are plenty of theories that interest me, but no theory has been proven to explain how this matter came into being.

I find this video to be very enlightening.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-LXUHJmzzc[/youtube]
"The Bible is a Banquet table not a snack tray!" - Anonymous Facebook User

Offline snkiesch

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Re: A question for any theist.
« Reply #53 on: April 03, 2009, 03:08:05 PM »
what compels you not to believe?

There is no evidence to believe. Wanting something to be true does not make it true.
"The evangelists were inventors – not historians."


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Offline Omen

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Re: A question for any theist.
« Reply #54 on: April 03, 2009, 03:13:06 PM »
what compels you not to believe?

Not believe in what?
"Religious faith is the antithesis to knowledge, it is the opposition to education, and it has to act in animosity against the free exchange of ideas.  Why? Because those things are what cause harm to a religions place in society most." - Me

Offline I_fight_stupidity

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Re: A question for any theist.
« Reply #55 on: April 03, 2009, 03:14:13 PM »
Gap in our knowledge is probably the reason any religion was concived.  Religion only explains this gap with magic instead of evidence.

Offline none

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Re: A question for any theist.
« Reply #56 on: April 03, 2009, 03:21:31 PM »
http://www.cliffsnotes.com/WileyCDA/CliffsReviewTopic/The-Big-Bang-Theory.topicArticleId-23583,articleId-23576.html
Quote
Using the same physical principles for understanding stars, the theory does account for the evolution of the universe after a time of about 30 seconds.....According to the Big Bang Cosmology, the universe “originated” at infinite temperature and density (not necessarily true, because the conventional rules of physics do not apply to the exceedingly high temperatures and densities at a time before 30 seconds, which was in a state that scientists are only now beginning to understand).
"originated" does not mean created nor does it mean location.
if the word created was intended the word created would be used.
notice the words after and before....

Offline velkyn

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Re: A question for any theist.
« Reply #57 on: April 03, 2009, 03:42:09 PM »
there is a quote function, wade.  You should use it.  

Using coincidence as "evidence" for God has one major problem, you can't be sure it is your particular deity doing it. You are also stuck with every coincidence being God's work.  

The BBT does theorize where matter came from.  
Quote
The Big Bang theory is an effort to explain what happened at the very beginning of our universe. Discoveries in astronomy and physics have shown beyond a reasonable doubt that our universe did in fact have a beginning. Prior to that moment there was nothing; during and after that moment there was something: our universe. The big bang theory is an effort to explain what happened during and after that moment.

According to the standard theory, our universe sprang into existence as "singularity" around 13.7 billion years ago. What is a "singularity" and where does it come from? Well, to be honest, we don't know for sure. Singularities are zones which defy our current understanding of physics. They are thought to exist at the core of "black holes." Black holes are areas of intense gravitational pressure. The pressure is thought to be so intense that finite matter is actually squished into infinite density (a mathematical concept which truly boggles the mind). These zones of infinite density are called "singularities." Our universe is thought to have begun as an infinitesimally small, infinitely hot, infinitely dense, something - a singularity. Where did it come from? We don't know. Why did it appear? We don't know. http://www.big-bang-theory.com/


Quote
velkyn:  “If your God is as described by the Bible, where is the evidence of all his supposed interaction wtih the world?  Your God used interaction to prove his existence and what he claimed to be.  As much as Christians claim that their religon is based on "faith" and "hope", it is not that at all and never was."
The evidence Christians see is what most atheists call “coincidence.”  
"I find it hilarious that you said "Big Bang still has nothing to do with how all of the matter of the universe came into existence in the first place".  My dear, that is what it has to do with.  Do you not understand what the BBT is?”
I certainly do understand what the BBT is.  It does not explain where universal matter came from, it says what happened to it.
"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

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