Author Topic: A question for any theist.  (Read 8445 times)

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Offline velkyn

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Re: A question for any theist.
« Reply #116 on: April 16, 2009, 09:42:32 AM »
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willfully ignorant.

All men/women by nature want to know.  That is why we value sight above all other senses - we can take in so much information through our sight.  I understand your sentiment.  In the case you describe the subject is dishonest not intentionally ignorant. 

Ignorance is actually a vast theological subject.  Consider this for example:
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So far as fixing human responsibility, the most important division of ignorance is that designated by the terms invincible and vincible. Ignorance is said to be invincible when a person is unable to rid himself of it notwithstanding the employment of moral diligence, that is, such as under the circumstances is, morally speaking, possible and obligatory. This manifestly includes the states of inadvertence, forgetfulness, etc. Such ignorance is obviously involuntary and therefore not imputable. On the other hand, ignorance is termed vincible if it can be dispelled by the use of "moral diligence". This certainly does not mean all possible effort; otherwise, as Ballerini naively says, we should have to have recourse to the pope in every instance. We may say, however, that the diligence requisite must be commensurate with the importance of the affair in hand, and with the capacity of the agent, in a word such as a really sensible and prudent person would use under the circumstances. Furthermore, it must be remembered that the obligation mentioned above is to be interpreted strictly and exclusively as the duty incumbent on a man to do something, the precise object of which is the acquisition of the needed knowledge. In other words the mere fact that one is bound by some extrinsic title to do something the performance of which would have actually, though not necessarily, given the required information, is negligible. When ignorance is deliberately aimed at and fostered, it is said to be affected, not because it is pretended, but rather because it is sought for by the agent so that he may not have to relinquish his purpose. Ignorance which practically no effort is made to dispel is termed crass or supine.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07648a.htm

It is indeed dishonest and gives the practicer an excuse on why they don't have to agree to a fact.  Christian after Christian has done this on the threads, mostly when confronted with evidence that demonstrates their myths are wrong.  They think that they can attack subjects that they know nothing about and then get all upset when they are shown to be idiots. 
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Offline God

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Re: A question for any theist.
« Reply #117 on: April 17, 2009, 10:06:46 AM »
Facts are interpreted reality.  You are operating on a set of presuppositions that exclude any but materialist possibilities.   There are inherent problems in those presuppositions - such as explaining free will (yes, that problem again) and just as seriously rational thought itself.

Offline velkyn

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Re: A question for any theist.
« Reply #118 on: April 17, 2009, 12:58:17 PM »
Facts are interpreted reality.  You are operating on a set of presuppositions that exclude any but materialist possibilities.   There are inherent problems in those presuppositions - such as explaining free will (yes, that problem again) and just as seriously rational thought itself.

oh, goody, back to cartwheeling toward solipcism.  As soon as you act like reality isn't real, I may have some respect for you. But you have no evidence for anything but "materialist possiblities" and you won't grab a red-hot piece of iron because you share the same reality as me.  You can't "intepret" away a bone-deep burn.

You may as well insist that I should accept any baselss claim since it could *possibly* exist.  Let me ask you, do you accept the presupposition that the earth is on the back of a turtle? Or that the stars are only bright spots on a crystalline sphere surrounding the earth? Why don't you find that as acceptable as your own beliefs?   

And please, tell me what the problem is with accepting reality as it is and explaining free will and rational thought within reality. 
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Offline God

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Re: A question for any theist.
« Reply #119 on: April 17, 2009, 05:54:20 PM »
Vel, I think you are partially missing me on this one.  It will take a few exchanges, but if you will bear with me I will try to give a response to your questions.  First, let me ask if you a materialist or do you concede some form of supernatural order?  I believe this has implications that bear both on free will and the capacity for rational judgment, so it is not a random inquiry. 

Offline GamerGirl

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Re: A question for any theist.
« Reply #120 on: April 20, 2009, 03:52:04 AM »
Are you willing to concede that the available evidence for the human body exceeds the available evidence for any gods?

No. Thanks for asking.

Oookay.

>ksm quietly backs out the door<

Seriously?!

/lesigh

Uhm... For anyone to read really:

Unwillingness to acknowledge another person's opinion saddens me. 

I don't think there's a lack of people who acknowledge opinions here.  Did you mean respect?

I addressed the theist here, but I believe the message was unclear.  It's upsetting to see a theist not want to listen to another person's side of the story... and... I butted in there unnecessarily because I allowed an unjustifiable emotion cloud my reasoning and then followed that up with this asinine attempt of an excuse as to why I did something. 

It would be the same as me sharing my opinion about God to a non-believer and then having the nonbeliever laugh in my face (Actually, that's happened to me before so....), it's extremely inappropriate to enter a discussion and refuse to, at the very least, acknowledge that another possibility may exist.

Unless that other possibility is completely ludicrous.  Such as saying there isn't more evidence for human body than there is for gods.  Are you willing to acknowledge that possibility?
[/quote]

Beliefs are like cultural entree's.  One culture may love a certain dish, but the nutrition or the taste may be absurd! yet completely palatable to the culture accustomed to the dish.  Make sense? Or have I written a malformed metaphor?

Back to the metaphor...  In that same way, culture is often defined by religion.  Some cultures prefer one religion, some cultures are gluttonous and consume many ((mmm, mantheism :D )), while some cultures are like religious anorexics: they prefer to abstain from the religious realm.  All of these are okay options, I think.  Just because I chose a Christian God, does not mean the Christian God is absolutely bad. 

Atheists often forget to include the probability that a higher being may exist.  That completely makes their argument invalid.  Similarly, Christians presume that only their God exists... that too detracts from the validity of their argument. 

So where does that leave me? At a tiresome game of semantics and and whole profile full of primarily useless, half ass'd responses. I think I have a few good ones, but the bad > good, ehehe... :( so.... yeah...

Perhaps velkyn is right... ^.^ My useless commentary is not needed here.  I got what I needed from this site: a place to question my own beliefs.  nothing more, nothing less.

Offline Optic9

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Re: A question for any theist.
« Reply #121 on: April 20, 2009, 09:16:38 AM »
     What compels you to believe?

     With no physical evidence and basing your life on a book that you believe is special and original, why do you turn a blind eye towards the evidence your are afraid of? 
Actually, what compels me to believe is all the evidence in the biosphere and universe.  There is so much order, complexity, and design, there I find it impossible for the origin of life to be the result of a blind random chaotic big bang who knows when.  We must openly and honestly look at the evidence in the world and follow it to where it leads us.  I believe it leads us to the Designer.

Offline velkyn

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Re: A question for any theist.
« Reply #122 on: April 20, 2009, 01:52:49 PM »
     What compels you to believe?

     With no physical evidence and basing your life on a book that you believe is special and original, why do you turn a blind eye towards the evidence your are afraid of? 
Actually, what compels me to believe is all the evidence in the biosphere and universe.  There is so much order, complexity, and design, there I find it impossible for the origin of life to be the result of a blind random chaotic big bang who knows when.  We must openly and honestly look at the evidence in the world and follow it to where it leads us.  I believe it leads us to the Designer.

you really should do some research on things you try to attack before making a fool of yourself. 

If you think there is evidence of creationism, then show it.  This will be novel since no one has ever been able to show any.
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Offline velkyn

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Re: A question for any theist.
« Reply #123 on: April 20, 2009, 01:54:57 PM »
Vel, I think you are partially missing me on this one.  It will take a few exchanges, but if you will bear with me I will try to give a response to your questions.  First, let me ask if you a materialist or do you concede some form of supernatural order?  I believe this has implications that bear both on free will and the capacity for rational judgment, so it is not a random inquiry. 

::facepalm::

There is no supernatural order.  No evdence for this at all.  Since there is no evidence, there is no reason to think it is even remotely true.

And would you just answer my questions rather than trying to be "clever"....

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Offline Grimm

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Re: A question for any theist.
« Reply #124 on: April 20, 2009, 02:44:04 PM »
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Actually, what compels me to believe is all the evidence in the biosphere and universe.  There is so much order, complexity, and design, there I find it impossible for the origin of life to be the result of a blind random chaotic big bang who knows when.  We must openly and honestly look at the evidence in the world and follow it to where it leads us.  I believe it leads us to the Designer.

Argument from Incredulity.

Just because you find it impossible due to complexity you cannot understand, does not mean that it is universally so.   This is one of the most common logical fallacies.

Frankly?  I don't blame you for not understanding - unless you've made no real concerted effort to do so.  The conversation gets fairly technical fairly quickly.. but there are good layman's explanations out there.  The thing is?  It doesn't matter if you believe it or not.  Truth does not require belief.  It just is - it was before you knew about it, and will be even if you roundly deny it.

As a tangent, this may be another source of confusion between the Atheist and the Theist - when we say 'Truth', we don't mean 'something we think is true with our whole hearts, so it must be.'   We mean 'something that has a vast body of evidence to back up its suppositions'.  The word causes problems.

I suppose the difference is:  you can 'not believe' in evolution all you want, but the antibiotic-resistant bacterial strains will eat you anyway.   I can 'not believe' in your God all I want, and I won't get so much as a single holy sniffle in retaliation from your deity.  I'm more likely to be shot by some fundie loon - and somebody out there would point to that as 'Truth'.

*shuddeR*

I just creeped myself out.

"But to us, there is but one god, plus or minus one."  - 1 Corinthians 8:6+/-2

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