Author Topic: A question for any theist.  (Read 8446 times)

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Offline I_fight_stupidity

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A question for any theist.
« on: March 19, 2009, 09:55:16 AM »
     What compels you to believe?

     With no physical evidence and basing your life on a book that you believe is special and original, why do you turn a blind eye towards the evidence your are afraid of? 

Offline raidz

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Re: A question for any theist.
« Reply #1 on: March 26, 2009, 03:15:20 PM »
Why no one answer??   

I feel sorry to answer your post (because you're demanding ans from theist, and i m not), but this just show how theist are delusional....  They are too delusional to think that there's any answer to this, since everyone should believe in god with no reason, everyone should not question god, etc.

Let me make a prediction: no theist would actually take the time, click in here, and even see what I type... don't even expect an answer from one of them.  They will close the page once they saw your first sentence.
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Offline mommykicksbutt

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Re: A question for any theist.
« Reply #2 on: March 26, 2009, 04:07:05 PM »
**BUMP**

Typical deity whoreshippers opps, I mean worshipers!  Their standard answers is, "because god said so, so I believe," or some psycho BS like, "'cuz I feel in my heart the lord speaks to me therefore god is real."
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Offline GamerGirl

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Re: A question for any theist.
« Reply #3 on: March 26, 2009, 07:33:07 PM »
Truth is fun! But hurtful....

My father and mother are pentecostal fundamentalists.  For the first twelve years of my life I was subjected to constant abuse from my father.  He choked me, my mother, my sister and my cats then let us live... kicked me in the head... blamed me for things that I could not have possibly done.... He called me moronic, stupid, lazy, worthless, meaningless.... and then preached that God saved his life.

He sent me to corners, grounded me from MY OWN EDUCATION and then said that he and God loved me.

He brought in a man who molested me for five years.  Refused to explain sex to me and forced me to eat foods I could not palate.  His brother raped me when I was only fifteen years old. 

My father stole money from me.  Whenever I got a gift, he would take it away and use the money to help pay bills or buy something he wanted.  Whenever I did well in school, he criticized me for not being perfect.  So...

Why should I believe in God?

My mother and my father's mother told me that if I remained faithful, that God would deliver me from all my sorrow.  That if I put my trust in God, He would provide a future for me.  Saying this brings tears to my eyes, but if saying it will at least help you understand why I believe, then I will gladly cry...

I prayed as a child for God to save me from evil, to befriend me when I had no friends.   I had no school friends, no true ones.  Even they picked on me... After praying for a friend, in fourth grade, I finally found one.  A true one! But my father spoiled it.  However, God answered a prayer of mine.... That's all that mattered.

When I went to a foster home, I asked God to help guide me through school.

Did you know I have applied to 8 different universities and have never been (not once) denied acceptance? Did you know that I was Valedictorian of middle school, highschool, and am on my way to becoming valedictorian at my current school?

Did you know that I always make sure I know the knowledge behind my grade? ALWAYS.  That I tutor people who are behind, that I help anyone in anyway that I can? Even in countries I've never even been too.

Did you also know that I can be mean? I can call names and can make people cry (often unintentionally)?

Do any of you have any idea how many prayers in my life have been granted? No... Because I hide it.... I call myself GamerGirl (even though I'd rather be called something else)... because I cannot hide from who and what I am.

God saved my life because I dedicated my life to Him and whenever I turn away, I feel as if I am abandoning one of my closest friends. 

I have never seen many of you online, but I still believe that you exist.  I may contradict myself, but at least I make an effort to justify my beliefs.

I will always work my hardest because I love the world and everything in it.  So please... try not and fight each other... Please, stand up for what you believe in.  No matter how trivial it may be.... It can give your life meaning when you have none.

Offline mommykicksbutt

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Re: A question for any theist.
« Reply #4 on: March 26, 2009, 07:45:59 PM »
Truth is fun! But hurtful....

My father and mother are pentecostal fundamentalists.  For the first twelve years of my life I was subjected to constant abuse from my father.  He choked me, my mother, my sister and my cats then let us live... kicked me in the head... blamed me for things that I could not have possibly done.... He called me moronic, stupid, lazy, worthless, meaningless.... and then preached that God saved his life.

He sent me to corners, grounded me from MY OWN EDUCATION and then said that he and God loved me.

He brought in a man who molested me for five years.  Refused to explain sex to me and forced me to eat foods I could not palate.  His brother raped me when I was only fifteen years old. 

My father stole money from me.  Whenever I got a gift, he would take it away and use the money to help pay bills or buy something he wanted.  Whenever I did well in school, he criticized me for not being perfect.  So...

Why should I believe in God?

My mother and my father's mother told me that if I remained faithful, that God would deliver me from all my sorrow.  That if I put my trust in God, He would provide a future for me.  Saying this brings tears to my eyes, but if saying it will at least help you understand why I believe, then I will gladly cry...


Let me get this straight, you believe in god because your father beat it into you and made your life hell then told you sweet things about god?  And you trusted him and believed him given your experience with that man?  I hope you got counseling after being removed from that home.
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Offline bgb

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Re: A question for any theist.
« Reply #5 on: March 26, 2009, 08:37:33 PM »
Why pray?  IF god knows everything past, present and future he then will do what has been planned.  So why pray about things?  It won't change anything.
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Offline GamerGirl

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Re: A question for any theist.
« Reply #6 on: March 26, 2009, 08:58:24 PM »
Wait!

I knew my father was wrong.

My father's mother and my own mother often protected me from his abuse and told me that faith in God and putting work into my faith would give me a good future.  My life is set... I don't care if I die.  I have wanted to die several times.... I have wanted to kill myself even... But because I held on to an idea and practiced that idea, I am who I am today.

I have more work experience than either of my parents! I have already been featured in newspapers, in yearbooks, in nationally renowned places... I have seen over ten of the United States and can speak five languages and two technical languages.

My point is, I dedicated my life to God... I may have a shitty past, but God gave me hope.  God let me persevere where I should have already have died because of all the head trauma, because of all the abuse...

Of what concern is it to me if I stop believing.  None really.  I realize fully that me without God is the same me with God... But...

My life seems to have more meaning with a God than without a God.

I think that there is one God and that different cultures have given Him different names and that different regions have a son of God, a Jesus, a Buddha, a Mohammed....

I love Taoism... It's awesome.  The Dao Te Ching is one of the most logically sound things I have read.

But the point is: I love God.  I am a Panentheist.  I believe that Jesus died for my sins... but... I am so unconventional in my beliefs that I am guilty of heresy.  And I am fine with that, my religion is what I am.

But I don't go to church, I don't do public worship anymore.... Because I feel... IDK... Naked when I do.... Like I have to hide or that I am being untrue to who I am... But.. I like that feeling sometimes... Because that's when I can be me.

Offline Mar

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Re: A question for any theist.
« Reply #7 on: March 27, 2009, 12:54:29 AM »
GamerGirl, thank you for having the courage to tell your story. I feel terrible about what happened to you and I'm glad that you are doing well in life now. ::hugs::

But, how do you know that God has answered your prayers? You could just be lucky. This may surprise you, but I am very similar. I am a college student and I ALWAYS pass any class (with an "A" usually) I'm in no matter what I do. It's been like this since elementary school. I don't understand physics at ALL and I passed both my high school and college classes with "A's."

And, no offense, but why does God help you with your college grades when he doesn't help people with more serious problems like poor little kids who are raising their brothers and sisters because their parents are dead? And why didn't God answer your prayers when all of that bad stuff was happening to you? I'm sure you prayed for someone to help you when all that bad stuff was happening, but God did nothing.

And you finding temporarily finding a friend does not mean God answered your prayers. I am a quiet person who keeps to myself and I somehow ended up with a friend. (This guy saw my art and commented on it and from then on we hung out.) Hell, there are some people who SPECIFICALLY look for shy/quiet people. I've had people talk to me while I was trying to eat my food or read far away from everyone else.

Why is God helping you with things that are less serious than what you went through before? We both know that if you dropped out/failed out of college, life would be harder, but you'd survive as there are a lot of jobs that only require a high school degree.

Isn't it possible that everything is a coincidence? Doing good in school has nothing to do with God. You are probably smart as hell. That's all you. With me, it's intelligence (not to brag ^_~) and luck. (Many of my college teachers like to give "A's" to students as long as they make some effort. Same thing happened in a lot of my pre-college classes.)

This is random, but I've never understood why God sent his SON to die because of his issues with humans... -_- BTW, do you believe in Hell?
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Offline GamerGirl

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Re: A question for any theist.
« Reply #8 on: March 27, 2009, 02:03:47 PM »
Thank you.... But I was literally of the smallest kids in school.  I was bullied in elementary.  I had like no one.  I am actually talkative and outgoing now.... When I used to be introverted.... I never really had confidence to back up my talents. 

I now have confidence....

So!

I have no idea why, I can only guess but never really know.

Hell is a separation from God.  Not sure what it is or whatever... It just means torture or what ever... A place to keep people who are not in the Christian club.  I don't care really.  I think the idea is silly.

Why would good people go to hell?

Offline velkyn

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Re: A question for any theist.
« Reply #9 on: March 27, 2009, 02:09:42 PM »
GG, your life story is no different from many others who don't assign God's intervention.

Quote
My mother and my father's mother told me that if I remained faithful, that God would deliver me from all my sorrow.  That if I put my trust in God, He would provide a future for me.  Saying this brings tears to my eyes, but if saying it will at least help you understand why I believe, then I will gladly cry...

I prayed as a child for God to save me from evil, to befriend me when I had no friends.   I had no school friends, no true ones.  Even they picked on me... After praying for a friend, in fourth grade, I finally found one.  A true one! But my father spoiled it.  However, God answered a prayer of mine.... That's all that mattered.

God giveth and your father taketh away, hmmm?  Why couldn't God stop this lose of your friend if he supposedly answered your prayer?  Why didn't your God protect you from your abusive parents? 

So much for God providing for you. 
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Offline GamerGirl

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Re: A question for any theist.
« Reply #10 on: March 27, 2009, 02:30:49 PM »
I don't know... I always had food (even if at first it was just beans, rice, bread and water when we couldn't afford groceries) and a bed to sleep in.  I didn't care about anything else really.  Just survival... I was lonely as a kid and felt unloved.... I hate talking about those feelings usually....  I don't mind talking about the actions or what happened.  It's the how I felt part that I don't like talking about.  I used to stand in food lines at homeless shelters just to eat a good meal.

I felt like nothing and felt I needed something.... So I found it! But dedicating my life to something... now that kept me alive.  They told me that God loved me.... I wanted to be loved.  That's all. 

Offline mommykicksbutt

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Re: A question for any theist.
« Reply #11 on: March 27, 2009, 02:45:24 PM »
GG, You are making excuses for god.  What I see actually happening in your life is that your own actions, self-worth, strength, and determination got you your good position in life now, not a capricious, fair-weathered god.
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Offline Mar

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Re: A question for any theist.
« Reply #12 on: March 27, 2009, 11:39:00 PM »
GamerGirl, I was introverted like you and I still am. :D I am GLAD you are one of those people who see the irrationality of sending good people to Hell. Oh, and what "mommykicksbutt" said.
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Offline Jman

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Re: A question for any theist.
« Reply #13 on: March 30, 2009, 11:59:44 PM »
     What compels you to believe?

To believe in general?
How about thoughts whereby I think about something I feel is true, but do not know it. Example: I believe I am in a human body.

   
Quote
 With no physical evidence and basing your life on a book that you believe is special and original, why do you turn a blind eye towards the evidence your are afraid of? 

What?
Assume much? LOL.

Some of us Christians (theists) believe in Progressive Revelation, thus the Word is NOT restricted to a book or source outside of Self. But neither do we deny that revelation is found in doctrine.

What is thought to be physical could be deemed as evidence of Creation by Creator. Therefore all of physicality could be deemed evidence of Creator. Would you turn a blind eye toward the evidence if the case were made for this?

Admittedly, I tend to understand Creation as Extension of Thought / Spirit (aka God). What is deemed physical, is not generally what I ascribe to domain of Creation. Partly to mostly because I have only belief, that says physicality exists. I feel perfectly okay with this (imaginary) belief.

Where is the objective proof for existence of human body?


Offline xTigerx

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Re: A question for any theist.
« Reply #14 on: March 31, 2009, 12:52:06 PM »
What is thought to be physical could be deemed as evidence of Creation by Creator. Therefore all of physicality could be deemed evidence of Creator.

How so?

Where is the objective proof for existence of human body?

Our faculties.  But if you want to go into solipsism then say that from now so I can avoid future discussions with you in this thread.
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Offline Jman

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Re: A question for any theist.
« Reply #15 on: March 31, 2009, 04:16:19 PM »
Our physical faculties?
Circular argument.
Begs the question.

My position is one that closely resembles solipsism. If this makes you uncomfortable and you are unable to further the discussion, I will understand.

I've been in this for more than 2 decades. It's a tough road and not for the faint of heart. Again, I understand if your spin is something that allows you to believe it is just a "Jman" thing and has nothing to do with how you approach this.

Be well,
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Offline Omen

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Re: A question for any theist.
« Reply #16 on: March 31, 2009, 04:18:39 PM »
My position is one that closely resembles solipsism.

Excellent, then all discussion with you are moot.
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Offline xTigerx

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Re: A question for any theist.
« Reply #17 on: March 31, 2009, 04:28:46 PM »
Our physical faculties?
Circular argument.
Begs the question.

My position is one that closely resembles solipsism. If this makes you uncomfortable and you are unable to further the discussion, I will understand.

I've been in this for more than 2 decades. It's a tough road and not for the faint of heart. Again, I understand if your spin is something that allows you to believe it is just a "Jman" thing and has nothing to do with how you approach this.

Be well,
Jman

Not that it makes me uncomfortable... it's a dead end.  It's usually what people resort to when they realize their argument is bunk.  It's fun when you're the one pushing the solipsist viewpoint (I admit, I used to pull this one often) because everything boils down to "how do you know this????"  But in the end, it accomplishes nothing.
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: A question for any theist.
« Reply #18 on: March 31, 2009, 07:12:08 PM »
I prayed as a child for God to save me from evil, to befriend me when I had no friends.   I had no school friends, no true ones.  Even they picked on me... After praying for a friend, in fourth grade, I finally found one.  A true one! But my father spoiled it.  However, God answered a prayer of mine.... That's all that mattered.

   :o ditto for the awful sh!t you have been through! Would you feel differently about your life if you realized that God really did not exist? That you survived because you are strong and intelligent? That the people who befriended you and helped you along the way did so because they are good people? That none of this has any supernatural element at all? When you attribute your success to magical beings, you are just denying your own power. You go, GamerGirl!
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Offline Mar

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Re: A question for any theist.
« Reply #19 on: March 31, 2009, 08:46:25 PM »
Jman, you and I know that there is far more evidence that we have a human body than that there is a God.

Nogodsforme, great comment. :D

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Offline Jman

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Re: A question for any theist.
« Reply #20 on: March 31, 2009, 09:00:50 PM »
I'm not aware of what I would call objective evidence for human body. I am aware that I can use human body to perceive human bodies. I grant that.

Same thing occurs in my night dreams. In my night dreams, I am in human body, and with eyes I have within that reality, I can see other human bodies. But, I don't think I have actual evidence, of the objective kind, to establish reality of human body.

I'm okay with not having this established. I make my way in this quasi-physical world like all you all. I just happen to believe that of the things we could call evidence, the Thought of God (and Thought from God) strikes me as more real than evidence of human body. You can paint this as if you think I don't believe I am in a body or have a body or whatever, but for me it is accurate to say I am in a human body, but not of the human form.

I do tend to think that evidence of most kinds is ultimately self serving. Though understanding the scope of Self within last statement can go further / deeper than how things may look on the surface, of that claim.

Offline Fridge

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Re: A question for any theist.
« Reply #21 on: March 31, 2009, 09:07:24 PM »
You can paint this as if you think I don't believe I am in a body or have a body or whatever, but for me it is accurate to say I am in a human body, but not of the human form.

Ah the old Cartesian dualism... ever thought about you being the body?
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Offline Jman

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Re: A question for any theist.
« Reply #22 on: March 31, 2009, 09:25:13 PM »
Yes.

Offline I_fight_stupidity

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Re: A question for any theist.
« Reply #23 on: March 31, 2009, 09:36:13 PM »
I don't know much about solipsism, so please help me if I am wrong.  Does Jman believe that anything outside his mind may not exsist?

Offline ksm

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Re: A question for any theist.
« Reply #24 on: March 31, 2009, 09:45:20 PM »
You can paint this as if you think I don't believe I am in a body or have a body or whatever, but for me it is accurate to say I am in a human body, but not of the human form.

And what's your objective evidence for that?

Offline Jman

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Re: A question for any theist.
« Reply #25 on: March 31, 2009, 11:05:37 PM »
I don't know much about solipsism, so please help me if I am wrong.  Does Jman believe that anything outside his mind may not exsist?

I would say as far as sound bites go, your question / assumption fits within solipsism.

Jman incidentally believes that all things exist within the Mind of God. "Mind" and "God" can be substituted with other concepts. I find many concepts interchangeable.

I think some things, perceived things, are imaged-in Reality of God. Thus they aren't really real. They are apparent, held in place by conviction that I really believe all reading these words, are familiar with, but at same time is something that is seemingly very easy to underestimate. To treat as fanciful concepts. Like, even while I kinda sorta doubt it will happen, how come I can't re-grow missing limbs? I want to. Weird that it doesn't happen.

The conviction or firm belief, that is in this world (holding it together), but not of this world, is strong. Ultimately, it is conviction in Self, but is very easy to overlook it as such. And when turned against the Self, as if that is possible, it becomes treacherous. Thoughts / dreams of world, that is out to do me in, seems plausible. Thoughts / dreams of world as near extinction may become what you desire witnesses to.

This has everything to do with self identity.

You can paint this as if you think I don't believe I am in a body or have a body or whatever, but for me it is accurate to say I am in a human body, but not of the human form.

And what's your objective evidence for that?

None. Objective evidence, at the level that matters, is a myth.

I'm okay with idea that I may be mistaken in this claim. I have experience of acting as if I am of human forum and human experience is end all be all. That the thing called death of which I have no experience of, is entirely real and it means the end of me. I also have strong inkling that there is no death. There is passing on, but no end to Me. I have no doubts that one day this will be proven. Perhaps Today.

Offline ksm

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Re: A question for any theist.
« Reply #26 on: April 01, 2009, 04:25:49 AM »
None. Objective evidence, at the level that matters, is a myth.

I'm okay with idea that I may be mistaken in this claim. I have experience of acting as if I am of human forum and human experience is end all be all. That the thing called death of which I have no experience of, is entirely real and it means the end of me. I also have strong inkling that there is no death. There is passing on, but no end to Me. I have no doubts that one day this will be proven. Perhaps Today.

Are you willing to concede that the available evidence for the human body exceeds the available evidence for any gods?

Offline xTigerx

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Re: A question for any theist.
« Reply #27 on: April 01, 2009, 07:38:29 AM »
Wow, Jman's views go beyond solipsism.  In fact, it's encouraging delusion.

By the way Jdude, can you stop referring to yourself in the third person?

Thanks
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Offline Jman

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Re: A question for any theist.
« Reply #28 on: April 01, 2009, 11:32:04 AM »
Are you willing to concede that the available evidence for the human body exceeds the available evidence for any gods?

No. Thanks for asking.

Wow, Jman's views go beyond solipsism.  In fact, it's encouraging delusion.

LOL. Way beyond solipsism?
Encouraging delusion is interesting. More interesting that you don't dare quote where you see me (actively) encouraging delusion.

Feel free, one and all, to cite available evidence, that you feel is objectively establishing existence of physical. I think you already realize how I may question and/or disagree with particular claims, but I do feel open to considerations on this. If you feel the evidence is not objective, but is still there, I'd be glad to hear your thoughts on this.

Quote
By the way Jdude, can you stop referring to yourself in the third person?

I can. I may not.

How many times have you seen me do this?
And why does it (apparently) not sit well with you?
How about you refrain from summing up Jman's views in public discourse in ways that come across as disparaging? I know you can. I know you may not.