Author Topic: Is God rude?  (Read 3595 times)

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Offline dmnemaine

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Re: Is God rude?
« Reply #87 on: March 14, 2009, 10:16:19 PM »
Yes, He is omnipotent, so He clearly has the ability.

Okay, you believe that God answers prayers and that he is more than able to do so.

You also feel that it is necessary to act on God's behalf in matters that you have already prayed for like talking to the man about not getting a divorce.

What I see is a contradiction. 

On the one hand you believe God does and can answer prayers.
On the other hand,  you take things upon yourself like talking to the man about not divorcing his wife, when you had already asked God to take care of it.

I understand why you do things like this.  Both things are commanded in the bible.  I get that.  No need to rehash. (I bolded this so you would be sure to see it.)

What I want you to do is tell me how you justify both positions and don't see a contradiction.   

EDIT:  Cleaned up for clarity.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2009, 10:18:24 PM by dmnemaine »

Offline tbright

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Re: Is God rude?
« Reply #88 on: March 14, 2009, 10:33:45 PM »
Yes, He is omnipotent, so He clearly has the ability.

Okay, you believe that God answers prayers and that he is more than able to do so.

You also feel that it is necessary to act on God's behalf in matters that you have already prayed for like talking to the man about not getting a divorce.

What I see is a contradiction. 

On the one hand you believe God does and can answer prayers.
On the other hand,  you take things upon yourself like talking to the man about not divorcing his wife, when you had already asked God to take care of it.

I understand why you do things like this.  Both things are commanded in the bible.  I get that.  No need to rehash. (I bolded this so you would be sure to see it.)

What I want you to do is tell me how you justify both positions and don't see a contradiction.   

EDIT:  Cleaned up for clarity.

Because Jesus didn't see a contradiction. He was God in the flesh and showed us the way. The only contradiction is in your mind. The old cliche where the guy's house is flooded so he goes to the roof and prays to God to save him. A boat comes by, but the guy says God will save him, and passes. The guy dies and asks God why He didn't save him. God sent the guy with the boat.

Why do we send Missionaries all around the world? The same reason. Without His commanding us what to do, we would be ineligible for receiving rewards in heaven. We have to consider Him fair and just, and since we know what good things He wants us to do, after we're saved, we become eligible for all sorts of rewards in heaven. He's given us the opportunity. So it's for us to share in His plan. Personally, whether He gives me rewards in heaven or not, I want to do everything to please Him. I trust His judgment and look forward to worshipping Him forever and ever. Amen!

Offline dmnemaine

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Re: Is God rude?
« Reply #89 on: March 14, 2009, 11:17:54 PM »
Because Jesus didn't see a contradiction. He was God in the flesh and showed us the way.

Jesus didn't see a contradiction, so that gives you the power to magically pretend it doesn't exist.  Gotcha. 

Quote
The only contradiction is in your mind.


No.  The contradiction is on this website in black text on a white background.  Anyone who wishes to look at it can see it.  Except you and Jesus, I guess.


Quote
The old cliche where the guy's house is flooded so he goes to the roof and prays to God to save him. A boat comes by, but the guy says God will save him, and passes. The guy dies and asks God why He didn't save him. God sent the guy with the boat.

If you're going to give an analogy, give the right one.  Your divorce story is more like some guy praying that God will get his neighbor to plant tulips in his flower bed instead of daffodils, then going out to the store, buying tulips for the neighbor to plant and taking away his daffodils so he's forced to plant the tulips, and then saying, "See?  God answered my prayer and made my neighbor plant tulips this year."

Quote
Why do we send Missionaries all around the world? The same reason. Without His commanding us what to do, we would be ineligible for receiving rewards in heaven. We have to consider Him fair and just, and since we know what good things He wants us to do, after we're saved, we become eligible for all sorts of rewards in heaven. He's given us the opportunity. So it's for us to share in His plan. Personally, whether He gives me rewards in heaven or not, I want to do everything to please Him. I trust His judgment and look forward to worshipping Him forever and ever. Amen!

Totally irrelevant to my post.

Offline tbright

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Re: Is God rude?
« Reply #90 on: March 15, 2009, 12:01:22 AM »
If you're going to give an analogy, give the right one.  Your divorce story is more like some guy praying that God will get his neighbor to plant tulips in his flower bed instead of daffodils, then going out to the store, buying tulips for the neighbor to plant and taking away his daffodils so he's forced to plant the tulips, and then saying, "See?  God answered my prayer and made my neighbor plant tulips this year."

Horrible analogy. You should've used daisies or pansies.

How was the neighbor "forced" to plant the tulips? Was his "free will" taken away somehow?

Offline dmnemaine

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Re: Is God rude?
« Reply #91 on: March 15, 2009, 07:23:56 AM »
Horrible analogy. You should've used daisies or pansies.

How was the neighbor "forced" to plant the tulips? Was his "free will" taken away somehow?

That was not the point of the analogy, and you know it.  The point was that the person who prayed for God to do something then took it upon himself to make that something happen, then gave God the credit for what he himself did. 

1. You pray that God will make your neighbor plant tulips instead of daffodils.  You then trust God to change the neighbor's mind and do nothing. You neighbor plants tulips.

2. You pray that God will make your neighbor plant tulips instead of daffodils.  You go to the store, buy tulip bulbs, bring them to your neighbor, and persuade him to plant the tulips.  Your neighbor is persuaded by you and plants the tulips.

In scenario #1, you could have a claim for an answer to prayer because you did nothing but believe in your prayer.

In scenario #2, you do not have a claim for an answer to prayer because you did everything to make your prayer come true. 

In short, you do not have a case for "answered prayer" and "miracle" because you and your two friends messed with things by attempting to make what you prayed for come about.  You have no way of knowing how influential your machinations were or were not.  By going and talking to the man about not getting the divorce, you negated your prayer. 

Either you believed that God would answer your prayers for the man and you leave it up to him, or you didn't really believe that God would answer your prayers and you had to help him out by going and talking to the man.  You can't have it both ways.

Offline Former Believer

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Re: Is God rude?
« Reply #92 on: March 15, 2009, 09:18:55 AM »
God is not rude.

God is just.

God speaks spiritually.

God speaks through the Bible.

God had spoken through Jesus.

God speaks through His prophets.

Personally, God speaks to me

As I have made clear in this thread, I am referring to clear, direct, specifically worded answers from God in response to inquiries.  Let me pose the same question to you that I posed to TB--does God communicate with you in the following manner?:

Bill, a Christian is praying to get into medical school.  He says, "Dear Lord, you know the desires of my heart, I would like to go to Northwestern University Medical School.  I pray for your help in being accepted.  I know you know the desires of my heart.  Nonetheless, I pray your will, not mine.

To which God responds:  "I love you very much, Bill.  I understand your desire to go to Northwestern, but it is not my will that you be accepted there.  I want you to stay here for now, because you will meet the woman that I have destined to be your wife.  In two years time, apply again, and if you do your part in studying diligently, I will guide the admissions process to get you accepted."

Or an alternative response from God. "Bill, I love you very much, but it is my will that you become a social worker.  You will be more satisfied in that career, and I have plans for you to touch many lives.  Don't pursue medical school any further as it will waste time that could be spent studying my Word and witnessing to others."

When was the last time God spoke to you like that?

Faith unsubstaniated by the facts equal foolishness

Offline Former Believer

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Re: Is God rude?
« Reply #93 on: March 15, 2009, 09:22:28 AM »
Interpersonal communication is governed by a very simple rule--it is courteous to respond to someone when they ask you a question.  This is particularly true when the questioner is a close personal friend or family member.

Yet Biblegod, allegedly a "perfect, loving father" is absolutely silent whenever he is asked something by his "children".  (And, no, I am not counting subjective inner feelings or guidance as God speaking to us; I am talking about clear and specific language that specifically answers the request of the petitioner).

What would you think if a woman, who was asking her husband to help her move a heavy piece of furniture, got nothing but silence from him when she asked him?  And what if she kept asking him every few days and never heard a word?  Would this form of communication be considered helpful or kind?  I think not.

Why is it that Christians accept the way their God communicates with them as being reasonable?


You have hit the nail on the head mate. I used to pray daily, and the only response I'd get is "feelings" and as anyone who knows anything knows, you can create "feelings."
The fact that God doesn't answer pray would suggest he don't exist.

Exactly, Bartly
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Offline tbright

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Re: Is God rude?
« Reply #94 on: March 15, 2009, 04:57:37 PM »
Horrible analogy. You should've used daisies or pansies.

How was the neighbor "forced" to plant the tulips? Was his "free will" taken away somehow?

That was not the point of the analogy, and you know it.  The point was that the person who prayed for God to do something then took it upon himself to make that something happen, then gave God the credit for what he himself did. 

1. You pray that God will make your neighbor plant tulips instead of daffodils.  You then trust God to change the neighbor's mind and do nothing. You neighbor plants tulips.

2. You pray that God will make your neighbor plant tulips instead of daffodils.  You go to the store, buy tulip bulbs, bring them to your neighbor, and persuade him to plant the tulips.  Your neighbor is persuaded by you and plants the tulips.

In scenario #1, you could have a claim for an answer to prayer because you did nothing but believe in your prayer.

In scenario #2, you do not have a claim for an answer to prayer because you did everything to make your prayer come true. 

In short, you do not have a case for "answered prayer" and "miracle" because you and your two friends messed with things by attempting to make what you prayed for come about.  You have no way of knowing how influential your machinations were or were not.  By going and talking to the man about not getting the divorce, you negated your prayer. 

Either you believed that God would answer your prayers for the man and you leave it up to him, or you didn't really believe that God would answer your prayers and you had to help him out by going and talking to the man.  You can't have it both ways.

Why do we have to be excluded from the equation for a miracle to happen? So Moses' ventures with Pharoah weren't miracles because Moses was an active player in being obedient to what God wanted him to do? Ridiculous..... you are blinded by your own bias against the possibility of a supreme being. If He elects to operate through people, why do you find that objectionable? Why does that matter?

Edit: Fixed some typos.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2009, 10:24:24 AM by tbright »

Offline dmnemaine

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Re: Is God rude?
« Reply #95 on: March 15, 2009, 05:02:01 PM »
Why do we have to be excluded from the equation for a miracle to happen? So Moses' ventures with Pharoah were miracles because Moses was an active player in being obedient to what God wanted him to do? Ridiculous..... you are blinded by your own bias against the possibility of a supreme being. If He elects to operate through people, why do find that objectionable? Why does that matter?

Because the "miracle" that you referred to was a supposed "answer to prayer".  You negated God miraculously answering your prayer by your interference. 

Offline tbright

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Re: Is God rude?
« Reply #96 on: March 15, 2009, 09:53:33 PM »
Why do we have to be excluded from the equation for a miracle to happen? So Moses' ventures with Pharoah were miracles because Moses was an active player in being obedient to what God wanted him to do? Ridiculous..... you are blinded by your own bias against the possibility of a supreme being. If He elects to operate through people, why do find that objectionable? Why does that matter?
Because the "miracle" that you referred to was a supposed "answer to prayer".  You negated God miraculously answering your prayer by your interference. 

How do you know God's answer didn't include my friends and me talking with this man? Again I ask, why do we have to be excluded from the equation for a miracle to happen? Do you really think I can "interfere" with God's plan? You are giving me WAY too much credit and value.

Offline Blindednomore

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Re: Is God rude?
« Reply #97 on: March 15, 2009, 10:06:02 PM »
Why do we have to be excluded from the equation for a miracle to happen? So Moses' ventures with Pharoah were miracles because Moses was an active player in being obedient to what God wanted him to do? Ridiculous..... you are blinded by your own bias against the possibility of a supreme being. If He elects to operate through people, why do find that objectionable? Why does that matter?
Because the "miracle" that you referred to was a supposed "answer to prayer".  You negated God miraculously answering your prayer by your interference. 

How do you know God's answer didn't include my friends and me talking with this man? Again I ask, why do we have to be excluded from the equation for a miracle to happen? Do you really think I can "interfere" with God's plan? You are giving me WAY too much credit and value.
So, gods plan for me was to be an atheist? Awesome! Since I can't interfere with his "plan", that must be the case. Oh damn, Tb, you just gave away my free will.... you xtians, you give me so many laughs.

Offline dmnemaine

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Re: Is God rude?
« Reply #98 on: March 15, 2009, 10:15:44 PM »
How do you know God's answer didn't include my friends and me talking with this man?

I don't know that.  The same also holds true for you.  

Quote
Again I ask, why do we have to be excluded from the equation for a miracle to happen?


Because you and your friends attempted to engineer to bring about what you prayed for.


Quote
Do you really think I can "interfere" with God's plan? You are giving me WAY too much credit and value.

Well, let me put it this way -- do you have free will to make your own choices or is everything you do bound by God's plan?

Offline tbright

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Re: Is God rude?
« Reply #99 on: March 15, 2009, 10:16:30 PM »
Why do we have to be excluded from the equation for a miracle to happen? So Moses' ventures with Pharoah were miracles because Moses was an active player in being obedient to what God wanted him to do? Ridiculous..... you are blinded by your own bias against the possibility of a supreme being. If He elects to operate through people, why do find that objectionable? Why does that matter?
Because the "miracle" that you referred to was a supposed "answer to prayer".  You negated God miraculously answering your prayer by your interference. 
How do you know God's answer didn't include my friends and me talking with this man? Again I ask, why do we have to be excluded from the equation for a miracle to happen? Do you really think I can "interfere" with God's plan? You are giving me WAY too much credit and value.
So, gods plan for me was to be an atheist? Awesome! Since I can't interfere with his "plan", that must be the case. Oh damn, Tb, you just gave away my free will.... you xtians, you give me so many laughs.

Where did I say that? You haven't acknowledge God for who He is and what He's done for you, that is paid the price for your sins through the blood of Jesus Christ. You, like every other person on this forum and elsewhere that hasn't yet repented and accepted Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior, can always start at any time. The door will be open until the moment you die or Christ returns. Remember the penitent thief? He accepted Christ and only lived hours after that. Why do you think I'm even here?

I hate what you guys do here. But I care enough about you personally to come to this dreadful place that maybe someone might hear the Gospel message and believe. I am not one of those Christians that "hopes" you get your just desserts. I pray that the Holy Spirit would pierce your hearts and open your minds to the truth of the Gospel. I understand that I will get abused for this post, but I don't care.

Offline Hermes

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Re: Is God rude?
« Reply #100 on: March 15, 2009, 10:21:11 PM »
I hate what you guys do here.

There's a way you can dissuade me from helping people deconvert from Christianity.

Get Christians to stop doing negative acts in the name of Christianity or for purely religious reasons.

It's that simple.
Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons. --Michael Shermer

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Offline Blindednomore

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Re: Is God rude?
« Reply #101 on: March 15, 2009, 10:21:41 PM »
Nor do I acknowledge unicorns, gremlins under my bed, FSM, or underpants gnomes. Know why? I bet you do.

Offline tbright

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Re: Is God rude?
« Reply #102 on: March 15, 2009, 10:25:34 PM »
There's a way you can dissuade me from helping people deconvert from Christianity.

Please provide some examples so I can do my best.

Offline dmnemaine

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Re: Is God rude?
« Reply #103 on: March 15, 2009, 10:26:00 PM »
Where did I say that? You haven't acknowledge God for who He is and what He's done for you, that is paid the price for your sins through the blood of Jesus Christ. You, like every other person on this forum and elsewhere that hasn't yet repented and accepted Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior, can always start at any time. The door will be open until the moment you die or Christ returns. Remember the penitent thief? He accepted Christ and only lived hours after that. Why do you think I'm even here?

I hate what you guys do here. But I care enough about you personally to come to this dreadful place that maybe someone might hear the Gospel message and believe. I am not one of those Christians that "hopes" you get your just desserts. I pray that the Holy Spirit would pierce your hearts and open your minds to the truth of the Gospel. I understand that I will get abused for this post, but I don't care.

Tbright, none of the atheists here care about your witnessing.  It doesn't do you any good to prattle on about it.  It is not productive because it adds nothing to the discussion.  You're just wasting your time.  It does not do anything to prove that your god exists or make any of us want to become christians.

Offline Hermes

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Re: Is God rude?
« Reply #104 on: March 15, 2009, 10:28:54 PM »
There's a way you can dissuade me from helping people deconvert from Christianity.

Please provide some examples so I can do my best.

That's just it though.  I'm sure you already know of acts Christians do in the name of Christianity that you think are wrong or should not apply to non-Christians.  Work from your own list first.
Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons. --Michael Shermer

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Offline tbright

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Re: Is God rude?
« Reply #105 on: March 15, 2009, 10:37:24 PM »
You're just wasting your time.  It does not do anything to prove that your god exists or make any of us want to become christians.

Speaking for the whole forum, are you? You're back to the thug-like tactics....

Offline dmnemaine

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Re: Is God rude?
« Reply #106 on: March 15, 2009, 10:42:39 PM »
Speaking for the whole forum, are you? You're back to the thug-like tactics....

Okay.  Don't take my word for it.  Start a new thread on the subject and ask the others yourself. 

Offline Ambassador Pony

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Re: Is God rude?
« Reply #107 on: March 15, 2009, 10:43:48 PM »
It's safe to say that no one cares about your witnessing. At least, seriously.

I do find it comical.
You believe evolution and there is no evidence for that. Where is the fossil record of a half man half ape. I've only ever heard about it in reading.

Offline tbright

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Re: Is God rude?
« Reply #108 on: March 15, 2009, 11:07:43 PM »
It's safe to say that no one cares about your witnessing. At least, seriously.

I do find it comical.

Did I ask for something safe to say? There are non-atheists, non-Christians on this forum. Do you disagree?

Offline Hermes

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Re: Is God rude?
« Reply #109 on: March 15, 2009, 11:14:44 PM »
Speaking for the whole forum, are you? You're back to the thug-like tactics....

Okay.  Don't take my word for it.  Start a new thread on the subject and ask the others yourself.

My exact thoughts.

Tbright, care to see what people actually think?
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Offline Hermes

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Re: Is God rude?
« Reply #110 on: March 15, 2009, 11:15:48 PM »
Did I ask for something safe to say? There are non-atheists, non-Christians on this forum. Do you disagree?

Then include them in the poll, or ask *them* explicitly what *they* think.
Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons. --Michael Shermer

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Offline Husky

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Re: Is God rude?
« Reply #111 on: March 15, 2009, 11:27:01 PM »
You're just wasting your time.  It does not do anything to prove that your god exists or make any of us want to become Christians.

Speaking for the whole forum, are you? You're back to the thug-like tactics....

I am not sure about EVERYONE on the forum. But personally, I am with dmnemaine.

I really don't know how I am supposed to acknowledge God when I REALLY don't feel his presence. To say I repent and accept Christ (for whatever reason) is nothing short of being hypocritical.
I believe that you believe your God is real. It's called a DELUSION.

Offline valbernados

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Re: Is God rude?
« Reply #112 on: March 15, 2009, 11:46:18 PM »

I am not sure about EVERYONE on the forum. But personally, I am with dmnemaine.

I really don't know how I am supposed to acknowledge God when I REALLY don't feel his presence. To say I repent and accept Christ (for whatever reason) is nothing short of being hypocritical.
[/quote]

To Husky:

How do you want to experience God?

Offline Hermes

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Re: Is God rude?
« Reply #113 on: March 15, 2009, 11:48:01 PM »
How do you want to experience God?

Despite what someone wants, wouldn't your deity know what the best way would be?
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Offline Husky

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Re: Is God rude?
« Reply #114 on: March 16, 2009, 12:00:08 AM »
To Husky:

How do you want to experience God?

It will be pretty awesome if he can address us on a platform in the clouds. How about making some words in the sky that says. "This is your God speaking"

Hermes made a pretty good point.

1) God loves me and want me to go to heaven.
2) God is omnipotent and omniscience.

Then shouldn't God do something to help me believe in him and go to heaven?
I believe that you believe your God is real. It's called a DELUSION.

Offline tbright

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Re: Is God rude?
« Reply #115 on: March 16, 2009, 12:07:07 AM »
To Husky:

How do you want to experience God?

It will be pretty awesome if he can address us on a platform in the clouds. How about making some words in the sky that says. "This is your God speaking"

Hermes made a pretty good point.

1) God loves me and want me to go to heaven.
2) God is omnipotent and omniscience.

Then shouldn't God do something to help me believe in him and go to heaven?

He already has time and time again. You won't acknowledge Him. You won't even acknowledge the possibility of a creator.