Author Topic: 10 Questions for Christians  (Read 6850 times)

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Offline screwtape

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Re: 10 Questions for Christians
« Reply #87 on: March 18, 2009, 03:24:44 PM »
That their is no right and wrong by your world view

That is quite a leap, there sammy.  Maybe you should back up the truck and re-read what I said.  This time, try to drop the prejudice first.  It would help in understanding my point.

But then he'd have to face what you actually said, instead of what he wants you to have said!  And that, dear Screwtape, would take honesty.  I feel we may be asking for more than Sam can provide in that regard.

I try to set a high bar.  I feel it is a more respectful position to assume the best.  However, I have to admit, I am usually disappointed.

What's true is already so. Owning up to it does not make it worse.

Offline Odin

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Re: 10 Questions for Christians
« Reply #88 on: March 18, 2009, 07:02:00 PM »
Is man boy love right or wrong?

Man boy love, to me, is wrong.  It doesn't feel "right" to me. 

However, show me in the Bible where it is wrong.  I can show you plenty of passages that assume women, and young girls, are considered property.  There are a bunch more passages about how to dispose of a virgin you don't like than how to cure cancer, how to develop penicillin, or even how to reset a broken bone.

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Offline sam

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Re: 10 Questions for Christians
« Reply #89 on: March 19, 2009, 03:29:21 PM »
That their is no right and wrong by your world view

That is quite a leap, there sammy.  Maybe you should back up the truck and re-read what I said.  This time, try to drop the prejudice first.  It would help in understanding my point.

But then he'd have to face what you actually said, instead of what he wants you to have said!  And that, dear Screwtape, would take honesty.  I feel we may be asking for more than Sam can provide in that regard.

I try to set a high bar.  I feel it is a more respectful position to assume the best.  However, I have to admit, I am usually disappointed.




My point is that without absolutes it is a slippery slope. If you can not acert that man boy love is wrong with conviction it will not be to long that it will be accepted. Maybe not by you but by future generations. Actually it is accepted by many people today already.

Since you could not give me a definite answer that is why I said case closed.


Offline Azdgari

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Re: 10 Questions for Christians
« Reply #90 on: March 19, 2009, 06:08:10 PM »
You still havn't addressed what he actually said.  You are instead addressing something he did not say, and pretending that he did say it.  That is dishonest of you.  Why do you behave dishonestly?
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Offline screwtape

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Re: 10 Questions for Christians
« Reply #91 on: March 19, 2009, 09:24:13 PM »
My point is that without absolutes it is a slippery slope. If you can not acert that man boy love is wrong with conviction it will not be to long that it will be accepted. Maybe not by you but by future generations. Actually it is accepted by many people today already.

Since you could not give me a definite answer that is why I said case closed.



Let us say for a moment that there are absolute morals.  There aren't, but just for the sake of argument, let's pretend there are for just a minute. Where do I find these absolute morals?  How do I discover them? 

You see, with universal constants, like the speed of light or the gravitational constant G, which are sort of like absolutes, we can experiment at discover them to a degree of accuracy. 

So, back to the original question, how do we know what is wrong?

And just because saying it is absolute makes you feel more comfortable, that does not make it so.
What's true is already so. Owning up to it does not make it worse.

Offline sam

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Re: 10 Questions for Christians
« Reply #92 on: March 20, 2009, 11:30:37 AM »
My point is that without absolutes it is a slippery slope. If you can not acert that man boy love is wrong with conviction it will not be to long that it will be accepted. Maybe not by you but by future generations. Actually it is accepted by many people today already.

Since you could not give me a definite answer that is why I said case closed.



Let us say for a moment that there are absolute morals.  There aren't, but just for the sake of argument, let's pretend there are for just a minute. Where do I find these absolute morals?  How do I discover them? 

You see, with universal constants, like the speed of light or the gravitational constant G, which are sort of like absolutes, we can experiment at discover them to a degree of accuracy. 

So, back to the original question, how do we know what is wrong?

And just because saying it is absolute makes you feel more comfortable, that does not make it so.

I do not want to get into a circular argument. I believe that there are absolutes and that if you violate them there are consequences. You don't. I do not think arguing about it is going to change our opinions.

The proof of absolutes is the consequences when they are violated.

Offline screwtape

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Re: 10 Questions for Christians
« Reply #93 on: March 20, 2009, 12:15:04 PM »
I do not want to get into a circular argument. I believe that there are absolutes and that if you violate them there are consequences. You don't. I do not think arguing about it is going to change our opinions.

You believe one thing, I believe another.   I take this to mean you have run out of arguments.  The difference is I believe what I do for reasons other than emotion.  You believe it because it makes you feel better.  Okay.  Then just say that.

"I believe in absolute morality and values because it makes me feel better." 

That concedes the argument.  Milkshake drank.

The problem is that because you believe your values are the "right" values, you see it as justification for foisting your prudish and arbitrary rules on everyone else, because, I mean, they are absolute, afterall.  If you could just say "I believe these things are true" and just shut up about it, then all would be good in the world.  But that is not how morality works.  Morality is a tool for regulating a group of people and keeping them together.  So they are necessarily public.  You are necessarily compelled to shove them down other people's throats.  Which brings us right back where we started.

This is why it is particularly irritating when someone - like you - comes around shooting his big mouth off about absolute right and wrong but cannot explain why his version of right and wrong is the right version, the absolute version, and just tries to do it by assertion or threatening us with god and hell and the end of civilization the rest of the bullshit.

The proof of absolutes is the consequences when they are violated.

I'd ask for some examples of these absolutes and the consequences of violating them, but I think you have been sufficiently beaten to a pulp.  Any more would constitute bullying and bad form on my part.
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Offline sam

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Re: 10 Questions for Christians
« Reply #94 on: March 20, 2009, 12:55:16 PM »
I do not want to get into a circular argument. I believe that there are absolutes and that if you violate them there are consequences. You don't. I do not think arguing about it is going to change our opinions.

You believe one thing, I believe another.   I take this to mean you have run out of arguments.  The difference is I believe what I do for reasons other than emotion.  You believe it because it makes you feel better.  Okay.  Then just say that.

"I believe in absolute morality and values because it makes me feel better." 

That concedes the argument.  Milkshake drank.

The problem is that because you believe your values are the "right" values, you see it as justification for foisting your prudish and arbitrary rules on everyone else, because, I mean, they are absolute, afterall.  If you could just say "I believe these things are true" and just shut up about it, then all would be good in the world.  But that is not how morality works.  Morality is a tool for regulating a group of people and keeping them together.  So they are necessarily public.  You are necessarily compelled to shove them down other people's throats.  Which brings us right back where we started.

This is why it is particularly irritating when someone - like you - comes around shooting his big mouth off about absolute right and wrong but cannot explain why his version of right and wrong is the right version, the absolute version, and just tries to do it by assertion or threatening us with god and hell and the end of civilization the rest of the bulls**t.

The proof of absolutes is the consequences when they are violated.

I'd ask for some examples of these absolutes and the consequences of violating them, but I think you have been sufficiently beaten to a pulp.  Any more would constitute bullying and bad form on my part.


ok you want statistical froofs I assume. But like a said before statistics can make any point of view.

Answer me this what effect do absent fathers have on our society?

http://fatherhood.families.com/blog/absent-fathers-and-the-awful-statistics-part-one

http://www.fatherhood.org/father_factor.asp

If you can't see the effects of the destruction of the traditional family then you are blind and have your head in the sand.



Offline velkyn

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Re: 10 Questions for Christians
« Reply #95 on: March 20, 2009, 01:35:09 PM »
I do not want to get into a circular argument. I believe that there are absolutes and that if you violate them there are consequences. You don't. I do not think arguing about it is going to change our opinions.

You believe one thing, I believe another.   I take this to mean you have run out of arguments.  The difference is I believe what I do for reasons other than emotion.  You believe it because it makes you feel better.  Okay.  Then just say that.

"I believe in absolute morality and values because it makes me feel better." 

That concedes the argument.  Milkshake drank.

The problem is that because you believe your values are the "right" values, you see it as justification for foisting your prudish and arbitrary rules on everyone else, because, I mean, they are absolute, afterall.  If you could just say "I believe these things are true" and just shut up about it, then all would be good in the world.  But that is not how morality works.  Morality is a tool for regulating a group of people and keeping them together.  So they are necessarily public.  You are necessarily compelled to shove them down other people's throats.  Which brings us right back where we started.

This is why it is particularly irritating when someone - like you - comes around shooting his big mouth off about absolute right and wrong but cannot explain why his version of right and wrong is the right version, the absolute version, and just tries to do it by assertion or threatening us with god and hell and the end of civilization the rest of the bulls**t.

The proof of absolutes is the consequences when they are violated.

I'd ask for some examples of these absolutes and the consequences of violating them, but I think you have been sufficiently beaten to a pulp.  Any more would constitute bullying and bad form on my part.


ok you want statistical froofs I assume. But like a said before statistics can make any point of view.

Answer me this what effect do absent fathers have on our society?

http://fatherhood.families.com/blog/absent-fathers-and-the-awful-statistics-part-one

http://www.fatherhood.org/father_factor.asp

If you can't see the effects of the destruction of the traditional family then you are blind and have your head in the sand.

So, if some Christians got their heads out of the sand about allowing gays to have families, one could have two fathers and just how great would that be!

Now, let's consider the supposedly "absolute" morals that Christians claim God has given them.  Can you find any stats about just how bad it is to not be a Christian?  Where are the "consequences" of ignoring that big one?
"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

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Offline screwtape

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Re: 10 Questions for Christians
« Reply #96 on: March 20, 2009, 02:05:57 PM »
ok you want statistical froofs I assume. But like a said before statistics can make any point of view.

Answer me this what effect do absent fathers have on our society?

http://fatherhood.families.com/blog/absent-fathers-and-the-awful-statistics-part-one

http://www.fatherhood.org/father_factor.asp

If you can't see the effects of the destruction of the traditional family then you are blind and have your head in the sand.

sam, you are not getting it. I did not ask for statistics.  I wanted you to give me an example of an absolute moral or value.  Then I wanted you to tell me how it would be violated and what the consequences would be.  Will god strike me down with lightning if I fart at the dinner table?  That sort of thing.

In you ham-fisted, knuckle-headed way, I see that you have tried, but missed the mark.  You have given me an example of cause and effect.  Absent fathers is absolutely bad because it yields rotten kids or whatever.  But this does not show anything of absolutes.  It makes a general statement.  If it were absolute, every child who grows up without a father would be completely screwed.  That is what absolute means, right?  The statistics would be 100%.  But that is not the case.  There is a range, a spectrum ranging from thriving to suffering.  And some kids do alright with a mom or a dad. 

And to top it off, this still does not say anthing about right or wrong, good or bad, in the absolute sense. Those are still subjective judgments. 

Just say it:
"I believe in absolute morality and values because it makes me feel better." 

You are fresh out of logic and reason.  All you've got is emotion.  Come on, just say it.  We both know it is true, so get it over with.  It takes a stronger man to admit his mistakes than it does to pretend they don't exist.
What's true is already so. Owning up to it does not make it worse.

Offline Azdgari

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Re: 10 Questions for Christians
« Reply #97 on: March 20, 2009, 02:49:15 PM »
Sam, had my father not left my mother when I was four years old, his drug habits and temper would likely have turned me into a psychological wreck for life.  To some degree, he knew that, which is largely why he left.

Do you contend that him leaving was morally wrong?  By my own moral standards, I think he did the right thing.
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Offline sam

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Re: 10 Questions for Christians
« Reply #98 on: March 20, 2009, 03:41:09 PM »
ok you want statistical froofs I assume. But like a said before statistics can make any point of view.

Answer me this what effect do absent fathers have on our society?

http://fatherhood.families.com/blog/absent-fathers-and-the-awful-statistics-part-one

http://www.fatherhood.org/father_factor.asp

If you can't see the effects of the destruction of the traditional family then you are blind and have your head in the sand.

sam, you are not getting it. I did not ask for statistics.  I wanted you to give me an example of an absolute moral or value.  Then I wanted you to tell me how it would be violated and what the consequences would be.  Will god strike me down with lightning if I fart at the dinner table?  That sort of thing.

In you ham-fisted, knuckle-headed way, I see that you have tried, but missed the mark.  You have given me an example of cause and effect.  Absent fathers is absolutely bad because it yields rotten kids or whatever.  But this does not show anything of absolutes.  It makes a general statement.  If it were absolute, every child who grows up without a father would be completely screwed.  That is what absolute means, right?  The statistics would be 100%.  But that is not the case.  There is a range, a spectrum ranging from thriving to suffering.  And some kids do alright with a mom or a dad. 

And to top it off, this still does not say anthing about right or wrong, good or bad, in the absolute sense. Those are still subjective judgments. 

Just say it:
"I believe in absolute morality and values because it makes me feel better." 

You are fresh out of logic and reason.  All you've got is emotion.  Come on, just say it.  We both know it is true, so get it over with.  It takes a stronger man to admit his mistakes than it does to pretend they don't exist.


What I am saying is that it will result in a general decay of the society. No God does not strike you with lightning but whenever God's principles are violated it makes society worse. No I do not believe that its a 100% case as you make it out to be but that its a general trend as in the 60's sexual revolution and the consequences of it today.

Offline sam

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Re: 10 Questions for Christians
« Reply #99 on: March 20, 2009, 03:43:47 PM »
Sam, had my father not left my mother when I was four years old, his drug habits and temper would likely have turned me into a psychological wreck for life.  To some degree, he knew that, which is largely why he left.

Do you contend that him leaving was morally wrong?  By my own moral standards, I think he did the right thing.

Well two wrongs don't make a right. He should have gotten off the drugs and seek help.

Question to you would be. If you had a Father who guided you and was a good man. would you be better off than with no father?

Offline Azdgari

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Re: 10 Questions for Christians
« Reply #100 on: March 20, 2009, 04:28:49 PM »
My father did guide me in a lot of ways, and he was a good man.  Just because he left our family unit doesn't mean he cut himself off from us entirely.

Besides, he did get off the drugs, and he did seek help.  Those things take time, though, and he didn't have that time - something bad would have happened had he not left.

I still don't see how what he did was wrong.  I think it was noble.
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Offline sam

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Re: 10 Questions for Christians
« Reply #101 on: March 20, 2009, 10:29:58 PM »
My father did guide me in a lot of ways, and he was a good man.  Just because he left our family unit doesn't mean he cut himself off from us entirely.

Besides, he did get off the drugs, and he did seek help.  Those things take time, though, and he didn't have that time - something bad would have happened had he not left.

I still don't see how what he did was wrong.  I think it was noble.

Sorry, I did not mean it that way. My question was would you have been better of if you had your father present in your life assuming he did not have these problems

Offline Azdgari

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Re: 10 Questions for Christians
« Reply #102 on: March 20, 2009, 10:54:49 PM »
You mean, assuming he was not the man that he actually was?  Seems a bit pointless to speculate, no?
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Offline sam

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Re: 10 Questions for Christians
« Reply #103 on: March 20, 2009, 11:02:34 PM »
You mean, assuming he was not the man that he actually was?  Seems a bit pointless to speculate, no?

Ok we will leave it at that. Sorry for offending you

Offline Azdgari

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Re: 10 Questions for Christians
« Reply #104 on: March 21, 2009, 07:47:54 AM »
You havn't offended me at all.  I'm interested in continuing the exchange.  I am the one who brought up a personal anecdote on a public forum.


What I was getting at is that there are lots of things that I would have preferred were different about my dad.  That doesn't make his decision to leave any less of a right one, according to my values (and his), because he wasn't the "idealized/modified" dad you began to speculate about, he was who he was.
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