Author Topic: 10 Questions for Christians  (Read 6851 times)

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Offline Ambassador Pony

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Re: 10 Questions for Christians
« Reply #58 on: March 17, 2009, 11:44:09 AM »
That's right, he admittedly does not understand evolution, but he knows what is against it.
You believe evolution and there is no evidence for that. Where is the fossil record of a half man half ape. I've only ever heard about it in reading.

Offline Jeeves

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Re: 10 Questions for Christians
« Reply #59 on: March 17, 2009, 04:03:55 PM »
We're debating the word Natural?  Did we all turn into Bill Clinton all of a sudden?

I've found a definition of "Natural" this is one part of many on Dictionary.com. I realize that this will give fodder for the atheists. I just thought this was
interesting.

Natural: having a real or physical existence, as opposed to one that is spiritual, intellectual, fictitious, etc.
How does this define natural?  Just because something is real it's natural?  Here's some other things that are also real, and have a physical existence,

Poison Ivy, Poison Oak, Maowar, Sharks, Cobras, Vipers, Black Widows, Lions, Hippos,
Lightening, Fire, Earthquakes, Tornadoes, Floods, Land Slides, Tsunami, Hurricane, Volcano
Methane, Cyanide, Sulfuric Acid, Chromium, Carbon Monoxide
Ice, Snow, Air, Strawberries, Sunshine, Sugar, Apples, Oranges, Grapes, Peaches, Puppies, Kittens, Gold Fish
Monkeys, Horses, Flowers,
These exist commonly in nature.

Guns, Grenade, Tank, Nuclear Fission and Fusion, Bombs, Knives,
Cars, Trucks, Houses, Stores, Gas Stations, Drilling Rigs, Tables and Chairs
Fabreeze, Glade, Airconditioning, Down filled pillows, Blankets, Swimming Pools, Burritos, Pizza, Barqs Root Beer
Medicine, (holistic or otherwise)
These exist also, but are man made.

Would we conclude the last set to be natural? Would be conclude that everything man made is good? Would we conclude everything found in nature to be good? Would you like me to stop using the word conclude?
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Offline Azdgari

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Re: 10 Questions for Christians
« Reply #60 on: March 17, 2009, 04:21:47 PM »
Jeeves, there are a number of senses in which "natural" can validly be used.  The one cited is the sense of being "naturalistic" or "physical" or "subject to the laws of nature".  Clearly, homosexuality falls into this category.

Another definition of "natural" invokes a dichotomy between "artificial" (read: created by humans) and "natural" (read: existing in its state without human interference).  Homosexuality falls into this category, too.

Sam seems to be using some other definition of "natural" that has not been explored.  I think he should share it with us.
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Offline Jeeves

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Re: 10 Questions for Christians
« Reply #61 on: March 17, 2009, 04:36:30 PM »
I see. Azdgari.

Correct me if I'm wrong. (I'm sure all of you will find some way I'm wrong) Are you saying that homsexuality is natural as in subject to the laws of nature?  How so?
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: 10 Questions for Christians
« Reply #62 on: March 17, 2009, 04:37:52 PM »
Do you deny the fact that there is enough food for everyone?

Can I see your evidence for the statement, please? I honestly don't know, because I haven't seen anything that wasn't anecdotal.

I think that the evidence shows that famine (actual starvation of large numbers) is rare, episodic and almost always caused by political conflict and war. See Ukraine c.Stalin era; Biafra/Nigeria in the 1960's; Bangladesh/East Pakistan in 1971; Sudan in the 1990's, etc. That is, people are kept away from their food sources and starved on purpose. It is not about the lack of food. The Ethiopian government exported food during the 1980's famine years.

On the other hand hunger, ie not enough food on a regular basis is depressingly common. It is due to poverty and lack of a safety net for the poor. Wealthy people eat fine in every country where there are large numbers of hungry people (Brazil, Mexico, India, etc.)

So yeah, there is enough food. And there is still no god. When hunger and starvation get fixed, it will be human beings that do it. Just like humans ended smallpox and polio.
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Offline Azdgari

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Re: 10 Questions for Christians
« Reply #63 on: March 17, 2009, 04:43:06 PM »
I see. Azdgari.

Correct me if I'm wrong. (I'm sure all of you will find some way I'm wrong) Are you saying that homsexuality is natural as in subject to the laws of nature?  How so?

Umm.  Well, if you define it as sexual relations between same-gendered individuals, then the motions involved are subject to the laws of physics.  If you define it as the desire to have these relations, then it is subject to the laws of physics (which govern neuron interactions, etc.).

This seems like a fairly obvious answer...was there a particular reason you asked?
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Offline Dkit

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Re: 10 Questions for Christians
« Reply #64 on: March 17, 2009, 04:51:14 PM »
I'm sorry my choice of words caused such a stir.  Thanks Azdgari for trying to clear things up.  All I meant was that homosexuality/bisexuality can be observed in hundreds of different animal species, including humans(not the observing part,  :P) Does that help?
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Offline Jeeves

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Re: 10 Questions for Christians
« Reply #65 on: March 17, 2009, 05:18:43 PM »


Umm.  Well, if you define it as sexual relations between same-gendered individuals, then the motions involved are subject to the laws of physics.  If you define it as the desire to have these relations, then it is subject to the laws of physics (which govern neuron interactions, etc.).

This seems like a fairly obvious answer...was there a particular reason you asked?

Just trying to understand where you are comming from.

I'm sorry my choice of words caused such a stir.  Thanks Azdgari for trying to clear things up.  All I meant was that homosexuality/bisexuality can be observed in hundreds of different animal species, including humans(not the observing part,  :P) Does that help?

What animal species is this observed in?  (other than humans as already stated)
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Offline Dkit

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Re: 10 Questions for Christians
« Reply #66 on: March 17, 2009, 05:28:44 PM »
Quote from: Jeeves
What animal species is this observed in?  (other than humans as already stated)
Here's an article from last summer.  http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=bisexual-species 
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Offline sam

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Re: 10 Questions for Christians
« Reply #67 on: March 17, 2009, 05:32:33 PM »
We also observe animals killing animals. We also observe animals eating their young. Does that make it right?

If you follow your path of logic nothing is wrong or right.


Offline Azdgari

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Re: 10 Questions for Christians
« Reply #68 on: March 17, 2009, 05:34:30 PM »
Sam, you were talking about whether or not it's natural.  If you meant moral, then you should have said moral, rather than natural.
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Offline Ambassador Pony

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Re: 10 Questions for Christians
« Reply #69 on: March 17, 2009, 07:37:49 PM »
^ Oh noes! I feel a Nazi comparison coming....
You believe evolution and there is no evidence for that. Where is the fossil record of a half man half ape. I've only ever heard about it in reading.

Offline sam

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Re: 10 Questions for Christians
« Reply #70 on: March 17, 2009, 07:39:45 PM »
^ Oh noes! I feel a Nazi comparison coming....

I used it on another post. So I will spare you ;D

Offline sam

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Re: 10 Questions for Christians
« Reply #71 on: March 17, 2009, 07:40:29 PM »
Sam, you were talking about whether or not it's natural.  If you meant moral, then you should have said moral, rather than natural.

Ok I will. I apologize

Offline Jeeves

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Re: 10 Questions for Christians
« Reply #72 on: March 17, 2009, 09:11:02 PM »
Very interesting. "Gay" animals. Also compelling is just as stated above, eating their young, etc..... Now leaving out the old argument of
people are smarter than animals, yadda yadda yadda.........

If you take God out of the equasion, nothing matters. Nothing, literally, evolutionarily speaking it wouldn't matter what we would do.  Bear with me here.
I'm going to play devils advocate.

Say there is no God, Seeing the common behavior in animals, and what is commonly accepted among them. How and why is it that Humans decide what is wrong or right?    To a dog it's natural to take care of their young. It's natural to fight other dogs. It's natural to some to eat their own fecies or vomit. It's natural that a rotting carcas is appetising. It's natural to kill another dog of fight for dominace. It's natural to steal meat from another even from a pup.
It's said that humans are no different than animals, we're just smarter.  So explain this to me. If there is no God where does society get moral judgement from?
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Offline Azdgari

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Re: 10 Questions for Christians
« Reply #73 on: March 17, 2009, 09:57:18 PM »
Putting god in the equation doesn't actually change the subjectivity of human morality.  There is no logical link-up there.  It's only a conditioned belief.

Having said that, we get our values from our upbringing (that encompasses more than just parental care, btw).  Morals are what come out of those values.
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Offline Vynn

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Re: 10 Questions for Christians
« Reply #74 on: March 18, 2009, 11:03:43 AM »
Say there is no God, Seeing the common behavior in animals, and what is commonly accepted among them. How and why is it that Humans decide what is wrong or right?   

Because making these decisions and adhering to this moral code, helps the society (large or small) survive.


To a dog it's natural to take care of their young. It's natural to fight other dogs. It's natural to some to eat their own fecies or vomit. It's natural that a rotting carcas is appetising. It's natural to kill another dog of fight for dominace. It's natural to steal meat from another even from a pup.

War, raiding parties, initiation rites (such as subincision and other types of genital mutilation).


It's said that humans are no different than animals, we're just smarter.  So explain this to me. If there is no God where does society get moral judgement from?

The fact that we're social animals. (Pack animals.) All pack animals have "moral codes". We just have some of ours written down and have groups of people gather to parse out the details.

Offline Odin

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Re: 10 Questions for Christians
« Reply #75 on: March 18, 2009, 11:38:46 AM »
If you take God out of the equasion, nothing matters. Nothing, literally, evolutionarily speaking it wouldn't matter what we would do.

Consider this.  There is at least a possibility that god does not exist.  If god does not exist, then ALL concepts of good and evil, right and wrong, morality and immorality, have come from man. 

You don't need a "god" to tell you that murder, incest, rape, and stealing are wrong and immoral. 

Consider this.  If you take god out of the equation, then EVERYTHING matters.  If this life is all I have, I am going to make it the very best I can, and try to leave it the best I can for others when I leave it.

If god is in the equation, then life is meaningless.  Whatever happens here is of no concern, because I have my eternal reward on the other side.  I also don't have to worry about what I leave behind, because they will have their eternal reward.

You have it exactly backwards.

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Offline screwtape

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Re: 10 Questions for Christians
« Reply #76 on: March 18, 2009, 11:39:41 AM »
It's said that humans are no different than animals, we're just smarter.  So explain this to me. If there is no God where does society get moral judgement from?

To compare us to dogs is a little inaccurate.  Observe chimps or other primates.  They have morals that are derived from their societies. Raise a chimp out of a chimp society, it has to learn the chimp rules before it can be introduced into other chimps.  It has no idea how to interact with other chimps.  They do have moral judgment and pass it on each other constantly.  We are the same way.  

A lot of theists like to think we all share a common morality system, but that is only on the surface.  I recommend you look up the posts of member afadly.  You will see that we do not.
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Offline sam

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Re: 10 Questions for Christians
« Reply #77 on: March 18, 2009, 11:54:17 AM »
If you take God out of the equasion, nothing matters. Nothing, literally, evolutionarily speaking it wouldn't matter what we would do.

Consider this.  There is at least a possibility that god does not exist.  If god does not exist, then ALL concepts of good and evil, right and wrong, morality and immorality, have come from man. 

You don't need a "god" to tell you that murder, incest, rape, and stealing are wrong and immoral. 

Consider this.  If you take god out of the equation, then EVERYTHING matters.  If this life is all I have, I am going to make it the very best I can, and try to leave it the best I can for others when I leave it.

If god is in the equation, then life is meaningless.  Whatever happens here is of no concern, because I have my eternal reward on the other side.  I also don't have to worry about what I leave behind, because they will have their eternal reward.

You have it exactly backwards.

Odin, King of the Gods

Is man boy love right or wrong?


Offline screwtape

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Re: 10 Questions for Christians
« Reply #78 on: March 18, 2009, 12:16:52 PM »
Is man boy love right or wrong?

irrelevant.  How do yo determine right and wrong?
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Offline sam

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Re: 10 Questions for Christians
« Reply #79 on: March 18, 2009, 12:32:32 PM »
Is man boy love right or wrong?

irrelevant.  How do yo determine right and wrong?

case closed

Offline Omen

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Re: 10 Questions for Christians
« Reply #80 on: March 18, 2009, 12:34:44 PM »
Is man boy love right or wrong?

irrelevant.  How do yo determine right and wrong?

case closed

What case?
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Offline sam

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Re: 10 Questions for Christians
« Reply #81 on: March 18, 2009, 12:39:30 PM »
Is man boy love right or wrong?

irrelevant.  How do yo determine right and wrong?

case closed

What case?

That their is no right and wrong by your world view

Offline Azdgari

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Re: 10 Questions for Christians
« Reply #82 on: March 18, 2009, 01:56:46 PM »
Screwtape never stated that there is no right or wrong.  He also didn't state that there is no way of knowing right or wrong.  He asked you how you decide such things.

Why did you lie about what he said?
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Offline Ambassador Pony

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Re: 10 Questions for Christians
« Reply #83 on: March 18, 2009, 02:28:29 PM »
Self-fulfilling prophecy.
You believe evolution and there is no evidence for that. Where is the fossil record of a half man half ape. I've only ever heard about it in reading.

Offline screwtape

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Re: 10 Questions for Christians
« Reply #84 on: March 18, 2009, 03:02:07 PM »
That their is no right and wrong by your world view

That is quite a leap, there sammy.  Maybe you should back up the truck and re-read what I said.  This time, try to drop the prejudice first.  It would help in understanding my point.

What's true is already so. Owning up to it does not make it worse.

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: 10 Questions for Christians
« Reply #85 on: March 18, 2009, 03:19:57 PM »
Characterizing it as "acceptance" does not imply perversion.  America today is more accepting of black rights than it was a century ago.  By your reasoning, that implies that being black is a "perversion".

Please try to contain your bigotry.

Talk about putting words in my mouth.
Lets use youre above example. What you are saying is that a because America is more accepting of blacks there are more blacks in America?

Maybe what you meant is that more homosexuals will come out of the closet. But what it sounded like you said was more people will become homosexual because it is more accepted.

Which is it?


I am saying that more people will become homosexuals because it is more accepted.



Actually, increased acceptance of black people does make more black people "come out of the closet". When any amount of African ancestry means you get treated like sh!t, wouldn't you hide the fact that great-grandma was a black African if you looked "white"? Just like so many folks discover their Native American roots when it is cool or beneficial to be an Indian.

Ethnicity is pretty malleable and has little relationship to genetics. My husband's ancestors left Ireland in the 1800's and became "Scottish" and "English" on the short stopover in Canada when they realized that being Irish would be a major disadvantage in the US. They have since traced their roots back to-surprise!-Ireland.
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Offline Azdgari

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Re: 10 Questions for Christians
« Reply #86 on: March 18, 2009, 03:22:10 PM »
That their is no right and wrong by your world view

That is quite a leap, there sammy.  Maybe you should back up the truck and re-read what I said.  This time, try to drop the prejudice first.  It would help in understanding my point.

But then he'd have to face what you actually said, instead of what he wants you to have said!  And that, dear Screwtape, would take honesty.  I feel we may be asking for more than Sam can provide in that regard.
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