Poll

Do you believe in ghosts?

Yes they exist
3 (5.2%)
No
45 (77.6%)
It's possible they exist
4 (6.9%)
I am one
6 (10.3%)

Total Members Voted: 57

Author Topic: Ghosts. Do you believe?  (Read 2512 times)

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Online One Above All

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Re: Ghosts. Do you believe?
« Reply #87 on: April 07, 2012, 08:23:47 AM »
I said intellectual honesty. Just because you're[1] not lying doesn't mean you're not being dishonest.
 1. This is a non-specific "you". It does not reflect my belief or lack thereof in your claims.
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Offline Alzael

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Re: Ghosts. Do you believe?
« Reply #88 on: April 07, 2012, 08:27:40 AM »
So why are you asking me to provide you with evidence when you know that can't be done? It seems pointless to ask, no? What I experienced may or may not have really happened, but you can never have a way of knowing that. Because I recognise this, I'm not claiming my experience to be fact, I'm just describing it.

Then who cares? If all you're doing is effectively making stuff up (which is what you're doing until you can prove otherwise) then do you think anyone actually cares about your experiences?

I would also point that it's against the forum rules to make claims that you are unwilling to back up.
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Offline Johnny Spunkypants

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Re: Ghosts. Do you believe?
« Reply #89 on: April 07, 2012, 08:31:09 AM »
I said intellectual honesty. Just because you're not lying doesn't mean you're not being dishonest.

Ok where am I being dishonest, specifically? As far as I can see, this is what I've been saying to you :



I've had certain experiences

I acknowledge that they were my experiences, and that they may or may not have been what I think they were

I feel that they were definitely real, they felt real, as I'm sure they would to anyone if it happened to them

I can't think of any way to prove it or any evidence to indicate its authenticity

I make no attempt to prove it for the above reasons

I make no attempt to otherwise convince you or preach, since this is almost certainly not possible, not to mention against my values (preaching)

Peace.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2012, 08:34:22 AM by Johnny Spunkypants »
I'm not here to defend my views. I'm here simply to give my two cents.

Offline Johnny Spunkypants

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Re: Ghosts. Do you believe?
« Reply #90 on: April 07, 2012, 08:32:55 AM »

I would also point that it's against the forum rules to make claims that you are unwilling to back up.

I'm not making any caims to anything other than having had experiences. It's not a question of being unwilling to back that up, it's the simple fact of recognising that it cannot be backed up.

Peace.
I'm not here to defend my views. I'm here simply to give my two cents.

Online One Above All

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Re: Ghosts. Do you believe?
« Reply #91 on: April 07, 2012, 08:33:29 AM »
When asked for evidence, instead of just admitting-
You know what, this sounds familiar. Hang on...
And when asked for evidence, you dodge the request and simply assert your experience was true, rather than simply admitting you have zero evidence, like any intellectually honest person would.
There we go.
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Offline Ice Monkey

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Re: Ghosts. Do you believe?
« Reply #92 on: April 07, 2012, 08:34:04 AM »


I'm not making any caims to anything other than having had experiences. It's not a question of being unwilling to back that up, it's the simple fact of recognising that it cannot be backed up.

Peace.

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Offline Alzael

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Re: Ghosts. Do you believe?
« Reply #93 on: April 07, 2012, 08:58:14 AM »

I'm not making any caims to anything other than having had experiences. It's not a question of being unwilling to back that up, it's the simple fact of recognising that it cannot be backed up.

Peace.

So then you are making claims. My apologies if the english language is proving difficult for you.
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Offline Johnny Spunkypants

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Re: Ghosts. Do you believe?
« Reply #94 on: April 07, 2012, 09:05:13 AM »

So then you are making claims.

Yes, I claim to have had experiences. I don't claim that they were genuine. The discussion was about the latter, not the former. No one has asked me to prove that I had the experience, they've asked me to prove that it was genuine, that's what's being discussed, and as I said before I don't have evidence, hence why it's pointless to knowingly ask. But as for the experience being genuine, no I certainly don't claim that. I've even stressed that it is just my experience and may not be real.

Peace.
I'm not here to defend my views. I'm here simply to give my two cents.

Offline Seppuku

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Re: Ghosts. Do you believe?
« Reply #95 on: April 07, 2012, 12:25:24 PM »
Johnny,

Essentially you've just come here to say stuff without backup? Just as your sig says. How are we to take your posts? This is a discussion and debate forum, you're not really contributing anything if you can't back yourself up. If you're to make any objective statements you need to be prepared to back them up, otherwise they will just be seen as fictitious.

See rules:
Quote
Discussion threads are for discussion of the topic at hand, not simply advertising one's opinions. As such, forum members are expected to back up assertions they make, and not engage in stonewalling, shifting goalposts, changing the subject, or employing similar tactics to avoid addressing points raised against their arguments.

Granted you have your experience and it's something you can't back up, you can't really make an assertion. You've had the experience, but you made the following assertion:

Quote from: You
they are beings who exist in another vibration, and they often appear to be transparent simply because they are, at the time, inbetween worlds.

This is what I tried picking you up on. You posted an entirely subject experience and said that it is good verification of this information (you didn't even say how your experience verifies this). This is what you couldn't back up. So I posted something (which was backed up) that would be an alternative explanation of your experience, suggesting that no...your 'experience' is not verification of the above (quoted) statement...even if the only person who could verify it is you.

Instead of addressing it, you condescended to me about the nature of 'scepticism', telling me to look at things with an open mind and to trust my senses and put aside preconceptions of the possible. This is a dodge. Dodging is a form of stonewalling and is intellectually dishonest. You've only encountered me in 2 discussions on this forum, how can you tell what my views on scepticism are, how open minded I am or even how open minded I am being or how much I trust my senses or why I might not necessarily trust them? That is why it is condescending and why I said it contains a number of baseless assumptions. The 'trust your senses' thing is already contradicted by reconstructive memory because it itself suggests your memory is inaccurate. You finish on suggesting I should ignore pre-existing dogma. (Even though the pre-existing dogma I was using is also backed up by personal experience)

Then, I explained my personal experiences and how said 'pre-existing dogma' (psychological theories) is backed up. And brought in a rebuttal of trusting your memory and senses completely and how your telling me to trust my senses is in conflict.

Your response to that is a goal post shift:

Quote from: You
Put it down as a possibility alongside the possibility that it is a ghost.

Why is this a goal post shift? Because previously you were VERIFYING that these ghosts are beings who exist in another vibration and are in between worlds with your own experience. How does something you've verified suddenly become a mere possibility?

Has your position changed so quickly? Am I right in that no you can't verify your experience with your claim that what you remember was seeing/talking to a being existing between worlds? But rather it is only a possibility, with which neither you nor I could verify, test or know. At least my so-called 'possibility' has back up. Your explanation could stand alongside an infinite number of answers, including, "a pixie created a psychic projection in order to fool you into thinking your were talking to a being existing in between worlds". If so, it'd be nice to know that your views have changed, saves being accused for shifting goal posts, because intellectually dishonest people shift goal posts so that the person talking to them is left chasing the dragon in a game of Heroin Hero[1].



Then you change the subject by talking about evidence for your experience. In fact, I was asking for evidence for your experience, I was asking for your original statement, which you used an unverifiable experience as back up...experience you first said verified to you then suggested that it was just a possibility.

I wouldn't say that you're a liar or necessarily dishonest in character (I wouldn't know about the latter, I cannot claim to know you are much about you), you've been up front about not having evidence to support that your experience actually happened and you're up front about the fact you're not posting anything you're capable of backing up. I feel I should say that, as I've pointed out directly where you're not really sticking to this forum's rules or expectations. Anyway:

I should requote the above section of the rules with additional highlights for the parts I've just covered:

Quote from: The Rules
Discussion threads are for discussion of the topic at hand, not simply advertising one's opinions. As such, forum members are expected to back up assertions they make, and not engage in stonewalling,shifting goalposts, changing the subject, or employing similar tactics to avoid addressing points raised against their arguments

If you're not here to abide by that section of the rules, then unfortunately you will find yourself on a path away from discussion here. These rules are in place to make discussion fair and balanced, and when I say 'fair and balanced', I don't mean Fox News' 'Fair and Balanced' but something that's actually fair and balanced. Whether how you've posted is intentional or not, it's certainly worth thinking about. If you don't like the forum's terms, then I will be up front and say there are alternatives out there that are less hardcore. Though, if you were able to engage in the forum that way, I don't think anybody would have an issue with you...obviously we don't get personal, even if it does get a bit heated.

As for why it may appear I am so frothy mouthed at that particular part of the rules, it's because I've been led around in circles wasting time and getting nowhere by those who engage in those unfair tactics and I intend not to let it happen. It gets tiring after a while too.
 1. Reference to a South Park episode. You're just about to catch the dragon and then suddenly he moves and you're always chasing that dragon, but you'll never catch him because he'll just keep on moving out of the way.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2012, 01:36:27 PM by Seppuku »
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Ghosts. Do you believe?
« Reply #96 on: April 07, 2012, 04:00:44 PM »
As soon as you started to ask Johnny Cum Lately to back up his statements, you just knew he was going to say "how can we know anything?". You just knew it. 

People who say that are such high-school level bs'ers. They go out of the house and get into their cars and go to the store and buy food and come home and cook it and eat it. None of which could take place if, as they propose, "you can't really know anything."

How do you know that, when you open the door, 25 galactic stormtroopers are not there, waiting to gun you down? How do you know that, when you get into your car, it is not going to turn into a rocket and shoot you to the moon? how do you know that the store is really a food store and not an opium den where you will be drugged, kidnapped and sold to the pasha as a sex slave? How do you know that the cereal is corn flakes like it says on the box, and not a box of dried dog sh!t?
How can you turn on the stove when it might suck you into a time warp and spit you out in the year 1066!

&)
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Johnny Spunkypants

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Re: Ghosts. Do you believe?
« Reply #97 on: April 07, 2012, 04:06:31 PM »
I'm enjoying our discussion Seppuku, but if you're going to start quoting rules at me it spoils it.

Peace.
I'm not here to defend my views. I'm here simply to give my two cents.

Offline Graybeard

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Re: Ghosts. Do you believe?
« Reply #98 on: April 07, 2012, 04:28:45 PM »
… I've had certain experiences, … I'm convinced they were real
And here’s the problem: there are several sorts of problem, the one you are suffering from is in this sentence:

“It is true that all of them are round.”

As we do not know what “them” are, then there is no way of knowing whether this is true. We cannot say if they are all round or not.

Yet you are convinced. Why?

You have had an experience that you cannot explain, and immediately, you become convinced of the supernatural. “I can’t explain it – it must be magic.”

Imagine a native up the Amazon seeing and hearing a radio – he can’t explain it. He goes off and tells his friends, “I saw a man with a box and music came out of it and voices. Surely, this is evidence of the supernatural.”

Another says, “I remember years ago, my father met a man with a box like that!”

The first says, “Right! That proves it! There are spirits. How else can we explain this?”
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline Seppuku

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Re: Ghosts. Do you believe?
« Reply #99 on: April 07, 2012, 04:33:29 PM »
Well I explained why I find that in particular rule important, so If that's all you can say then I'm not going to waste my time any more.

How can you turn on the stove when it might suck you into a time warp and spit you out in the year 1066!

&)

You know what? If my stove sucked me into a time warp I think I would cook a lot more frequently:




As for 1066, well I could single handedly stop the French from invading England. But first, I'd need myself an arsenal. Sure the French may have been handy with a sword or a bow and arrow or even a catapult or two, but how would they handle an apache helicopter? I can't fly one sadly. Know where I can get cheap flying lessons and a grant for military vehicles?
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Offline Emily

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Re: Ghosts. Do you believe?
« Reply #100 on: April 07, 2012, 04:39:34 PM »
if you're going to start quoting rules at me it spoils it.

So, does this mean you are going to ignore the rules of the forum, or at least the rules that Seppuku pointed out to you?
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Offline Johnny Spunkypants

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Re: Ghosts. Do you believe?
« Reply #101 on: April 07, 2012, 05:23:16 PM »
So, does this mean you are going to ignore the rules of the forum, or at least the rules that Seppuku pointed out to you?

Hi Emily. No it's not that, it's just a bit offputting to be quoted the rules by someone who you're having a pleasant discussion with. It makes me feel like I can't say anything without wondering if someone somewhere is going to pounce on me. I don't like that feeling, it takes the fun out of the conversation, and it sort of destroys trust. I'd like to continue with the conversation but without all that.

Peace.
I'm not here to defend my views. I'm here simply to give my two cents.

Offline Seppuku

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Re: Ghosts. Do you believe?
« Reply #102 on: April 07, 2012, 05:35:08 PM »
I find it offputting when people make dodges, shift goal posts and make it a hard time for me to engage, I've been in many discussions that have gone on in circles and for pages and pages because people ignore those rules, so I like to stop it before it gets anywhere near that. You wouldn't believe how time-wasting and frustrating it is. I am not normally a rule quoter, nor am I normally anal about the rules, but for those in particular ones, I am and with good reason I feel. Good news is, moderation here is actually pretty light, not to imply mods don't do their job, but they try to keep as much free speech as they can in, but obviously, there's times when there's an issue. Personally I feel this is one of them. Can I tell you what to do as a non-mod? No, but it's a good heads up for you and it's also my terms of engagement here to.

But I do hope that you do find a way to respect those in particular views. Most of the theists we get are bible thumpers, but you aren't and whilst I don't think I've seen you post anything with substance, I hope that you'll be able to contribute to discussions positively. The current thing I think that stands in the way is what I explained in my long quotey post.
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Offline Johnny Spunkypants

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Re: Ghosts. Do you believe?
« Reply #103 on: April 07, 2012, 06:03:02 PM »
Seppuku, it's really hard to say anything without sounding condescending. I've noticed this. You can't read my tone and it's easy to assume the worst. So before I begin, don't take any of this as condescending. Imagine we're face to face and having a very friendly chat.

Imagine if you saw a ghost, or thought you saw a ghost. The chances are you'd want to talk about it. After all, it's quite a thing to see, right? I mean it's a very extraordinary event. Some people who have had such experiences would speak of it as if it was absolutely real, and I don't blame them, because it seems absolutely real, so I would forgive them for making factual statements. However, I've openly admitted that it might not have been real. I'm very convinced that it was, but to be fair I'm comfortable with not ruling out the poss that it wasn't. All I've done is say that I've seen something that is quite amazing. I never made a claim, other than the claim of what I think I saw. I never claimed it was real, only that it felt real, and when I look back on it, it seems just as real, like it happened, just like any event.

The approach that has been taken is to demand evidence. But I've also said that I don't know how to answer that because I don't think I can provide evidence. I've been very open about that also. So, some might ask, what's the point of the entire discussion if I can't provide evidence? Well, let's be real, in real life you don't stand there and say prove it, you get curious as to what may have caused the event to occur, and you do so with respect. That is a normal human response. If anyone came to me claiming to have had an experience like that, I would show curiosity rather than a determination to corner them into admitting that it's all a load of rubbish, for my own sense of satisfaction. It seems that I'm being pounced on for evidence when I'm not coming to you with this as a scientist, I'm coming to you with this as an ordinary person (not to mention, again, that I don't claim to have evidence - believe me if I did I would present it).

So my question to you is, if you saw a ghost / thought you saw one, and you had no evidence to show for it, would you just keep quiet about it, just because others want evidence and claim that you made a claim even if you didn't? I don't think that's normal human behaviour. It's natural for anyone in those shoes to want to mention it.

I'm not treating this as a debate because I have no evidence with which to debate, all I'm doing is saying hey I think I saw this thing and I'm convinced it's real because it felt real. If anyone has a point of view regarding the nature of the phenomenon let's hear it, but don't force me to do anything else because I have nothing else. A debate can be had amongst yourselves while I observe, there's no need to bring me into a debate which I can't contribute to, other than to say what I think I saw. This thread is about do you believe in ghosts. Then I come along and say actually yes, I do, because I think I've seen some. All of a sudden it's all guns blazing. Well the thread asks a question and I gave my answer. No claim, just an honest answer.

The question is do I believe, it is not do I claim or do I know.

If those very people here who want to conduct this discussion in such a rigid way and who demand evidence ever had the same experience as me, they would suddenly find themselves stuck in a very big dilemma. Would they bring up a subject which they're dying to get off their chest even though they have no evidence, or do they just shut up about it?

You talk about me not engaging, or making it difficult for you to engage. Maybe I'm not doing anything wrong. I'm just a guy who thought he saw something, and that's it. No claim. It's up to you how you want to engage. If all you want to do is demand evidence we've been there before and the answer is that there's none. Or, another possibility is to talk about the phenomenon in general, based on my answer to the question at the centre of this thread, rather than turning it into a battle. There is more than one way to engage.

Again, please don't take this as condescending.

Peace.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2012, 06:05:48 PM by Johnny Spunkypants »
I'm not here to defend my views. I'm here simply to give my two cents.

Offline Seppuku

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Re: Ghosts. Do you believe?
« Reply #104 on: April 07, 2012, 06:23:41 PM »
Quote
So my question to you is, if you saw a ghost / thought you saw one, and you had no evidence to show for it, would you just keep quiet about it, just because others want evidence and claim that you made a claim even if you didn't? I don't think that's normal human behaviour. It's natural for anyone in those shoes to want to mention it.

I think I mentioned this, but on more than one occasion I have seen what I thought at the time was a ghost. I have no evidence (I wasn't asking for evidence for what you saw) and of course I wouldn't. My view on it now is, "I don't know what I experienced" and I am happy with that, even if I can't explain the phenomenon. I don't need to and I don't need to know what it was. I'm not going to hold conclusions about what I do not know. My 'Pepsi' example probably has the most support from the psychology of reconstructive memory, but I won't claim that's what it was. There's nothing wrong with not knowing.

Quote
I never made a claim, other than the claim of what I think I saw. I never claimed it was real, only that it felt real, and when I look back on it, it seems just as real, like it happened, just like any event.

Actually, you did:
Quote
they are beings who exist in another vibration, and they often appear to be transparent simply because they are, at the time, inbetween worlds.


This is where the back-up was needed - your backup was something only you have witnessed and cannot be verified, but it was enough to verify it for you. This experience is one you later admitted to know knowing that it was real. I will take that to mean, "this is what I thought I knew, but I realise that in fact, I do not know".


In fact, I think Greybeard came up with a decent analogy:

Quote from: Greybeard
You have had an experience that you cannot explain, and immediately, you become convinced of the supernatural. “I can’t explain it – it must be magic.”

Imagine a native up the Amazon seeing and hearing a radio – he can’t explain it. He goes off and tells his friends, “I saw a man with a box and music came out of it and voices. Surely, this is evidence of the supernatural.”

Another says, “I remember years ago, my father met a man with a box like that!”

The first says, “Right! That proves it! There are spirits. How else can we explain this?”

We're not worried that you cannot prove that you saw a box with music and voices coming from it. We're were worried about it being evidence of the supernatural.

(edit)
I did not find your last post condescending. ;)
« Last Edit: April 07, 2012, 06:28:52 PM by Seppuku »
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Offline Johnny Spunkypants

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Re: Ghosts. Do you believe?
« Reply #105 on: April 07, 2012, 06:33:56 PM »
When I said that they're beings etc etc, that's just my opinion. Ok maybe I should have made that 100% clear, but you shouldn't take everything I say as a literal claim when you can see that I'm saying that it's not a claim. In future I'll try to clarify but really, it shouldn't be necessary. It's obvious by the way I'm talking that this is just my opinion. If I'm saying many times that I have no evidence and that it's just my opinion, it's obvious that this applies to everything I say here. Anyway now that that's clarified, you can see now that all I'm claiming is the experience. It might have been literally real, an actual ghost, how do I know. I don't. I hope we can move forward and just have a conversation about ghosts in general. We've just had a major misunderstanding, that's all.

Peace.

EDIT : I'm glad you didn't find my last post condescending. Please don't accuse me of that ever again or I'll kill you (I have no smilies, but I'm smiling.....sort of)
« Last Edit: April 07, 2012, 06:36:00 PM by Johnny Spunkypants »
I'm not here to defend my views. I'm here simply to give my two cents.

Offline caveat_imperator

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Re: Ghosts. Do you believe?
« Reply #106 on: April 08, 2012, 12:45:35 AM »
When I said that they're beings etc etc, that's just my opinion. Ok maybe I should have made that 100% clear, but you shouldn't take everything I say as a literal claim when you can see that I'm saying that it's not a claim.

So what you wrote here-

Quote
they are beings who exist in another vibration, and they often appear to be transparent simply because they are, at the time, inbetween worlds.

is a claim since you didn't say it wasn't a claim when you originally posted it, right?

Please don't accuse me of that ever again or I'll kill you

Well, that was fucking stupid.
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Ghosts. Do you believe?
« Reply #107 on: April 08, 2012, 02:16:53 AM »
When I said that they're beings etc etc, that's just my opinion. ..... I'm saying many times that I have no evidence and that it's just my opinion......I hope we can move forward and just have a conversation about ghosts in general.

How?  OIR perhaps more importantly, why?

MY opinion is that ghosts are in fact the hologramatic projections from individuals who have passed through time-loops to appear in our timestream.  And Scrooge thought they were a pieve of undigested cheese.  So there's three points of view already....and none with any evidence behind them.  So where is the "conversation"?  Unless there is some way of determining whose theory is the best explanation, then I honestly can't see any point in continuing.....especially since your definition of ghosts seems so different to so many other peoples (i.e. that ghosts are spirits of the dead).

So what exactly DO you mean by "beings who exist in another vibration, and they often appear to be transparent simply because they are.....inbetween worlds".  Something made you say that - what was it?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Graybeard

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Re: Ghosts. Do you believe?
« Reply #108 on: April 08, 2012, 03:07:57 AM »
Absolutely yes I believe in ghosts. I have seen many. They're nothing to be scared of, they are beings who exist in another vibration, and they often appear to be transparent simply because they are, at the time, inbetween worlds.

Peace.
What is "another vibration" - what two things are vibrating so that one of them can be "another vibration?"
What is the scientific basis for claiming that there are more "worlds"?
Where are these "worlds"?
Are they like our world? How would we know?
Why would being "in between worlds" make you transparent?
Why do you say, "they often appear to be transparent simply because they are, at the time, inbetween worlds."? What is simple about the idea? - If it is a simple idea, can you explain how it works?
If I am between the living room and the kitchen, do I become transparent?

I think you are simply making all this up.

Why do ghosts wear clothes? Do clothes have a soul too? Is my jacket, which I had when I was 10 years old, now a ghost, floating "between worlds"? Or does it wait until I am dead, so that I have a wardrobe full of clothes?
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

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Re: Ghosts. Do you believe?
« Reply #109 on: April 08, 2012, 03:11:16 AM »
There you go again, Graybeard, asking questions. You should just accept Johnny Spunkypants's explanation, even if it doesn't make any sense. &)
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
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Offline Samothec

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Re: Ghosts. Do you believe?
« Reply #110 on: April 08, 2012, 03:21:51 AM »
When i was on one camping trip in a forest. At midnight. I saw a figure like an infant walking around inside the forest, naked, kinda glowing (at least i can see it in the dark) and a bit transparent.
Humans have very well developed agency detection which includes false positives since a false positive is not harmful (seeing a creature which is not there) while a false negative is harmful (not seeing a predator).

That fact plus the fact of it being midnight suggests that looking into the forest after looking at a light source (lantern, fire, etc) – which would produce an afterimage – could have been the source of the 'ghost' with your agency detection giving the afterimage a recognizable form. The appearance of movement makes me suspect you had a fire rather than a lantern.

Was this guess potentially accurate?


BaalServant -
What are "armageddon fairies"? Ghosts I know about - armageddon fairies, not at all.


Lucifer -
"Methods of detection drain our mana. So do people. That's why we only appear to small groups and in front of very poor cameras."
That would have worked better for the joke – consistent pronoun usage.
(Don't worry, we won't haunt you for the joke. We do still retain our sense of humor. Okay, most of us do and we won't tell the humorless ones.)


Johnny Spunkypants –
Absolutely yes I believe in ghosts. I have seen many. They're nothing to be scared of, they are beings who exist in another vibration, and they often appear to be transparent simply because they are, at the time, inbetween worlds.

As I have quoted above, you started in this thread with a statements you presented authoritatively. When first asked to expand you answered in a rude IMO manner. When asked by a second person to expand, you were wordy in evading answering again. Frankly you have been treated very kindly in this thread considering your behavior.


If I am between the living room and the kitchen, do I become transparent?
LOL Reminds me of something my grandmother used to say when I'd get between her and the TV – "You make a better door than a window."

EDIT: hopefully corrected quotes to be in line with new protocols.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2012, 03:41:36 AM by Samothec »
Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding. - Martin Luther

Offline Seppuku

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Re: Ghosts. Do you believe?
« Reply #111 on: April 08, 2012, 05:35:16 AM »
Quote from: Johnny
When I said that they're beings etc etc, that's just my opinion. Ok maybe I should have made that 100% clear, but you shouldn't take everything I say as a literal claim when you can see that I'm saying that it's not a claim.

I might have accepted that if that was your reply and NOT this (useful key phrases highlighted):

Quote
When you see someone who is transparent (or even solid but you know that they're dead), and talk with them, I'd say that's pretty good verification. Verifying it to a third party, that's another matter entirely. Can I see your thoughts? No. But you still have them and you know that you have them. You know that for a fact, there's no mistaking it. I may not know what your thought was but you do. You don't need third party confirmation to know what you know. True knowing is when you know something yourself, not when someone else tells you one way or the other.

So you didn't literally mean it as something that it's something you knew and you've verified for yourself? Then why did you say it?
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Offline BaalServant

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Re: Ghosts. Do you believe?
« Reply #112 on: April 09, 2012, 12:53:00 AM »
BaalServant -
What are "armageddon fairies"? Ghosts I know about - armageddon fairies, not at all.

They're sort of like tooth fairies, except that instead of leaving a quarter under your pillow after losing a tooth, armageddon fairies supposedly give you a whole new world after a devestating armageddon occurs (usually one that they've caused themselves).  They're the mainstay of many popular religions that are around today.

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Offline freakygin

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Re: Ghosts. Do you believe?
« Reply #113 on: April 09, 2012, 02:36:13 AM »
Humans have very well developed agency detection which includes false positives since a false positive is not harmful (seeing a creature which is not there) while a false negative is harmful (not seeing a predator).

That fact plus the fact of it being midnight suggests that looking into the forest after looking at a light source (lantern, fire, etc) – which would produce an afterimage – could have been the source of the 'ghost' with your agency detection giving the afterimage a recognizable form. The appearance of movement makes me suspect you had a fire rather than a lantern.

Was this guess potentially accurate?


Errr.. I don't think so..
Because that infant figure walking around. And i'm pretty sure afterimages are supposed to follow my line of sight.
Just like those burnt images after you look at the sun.
I'm pretty sure afterimage doesn't make a sound either.
And i'm still confused.. What the F was that thing?

I guess you should try come to my country then  ;D
My co-worker claims that his old university are full of those "Creature".
All you have to do is just pee in certain place (i.e under certain tree)
And they will come to you, furiously too, guaranteed. (I laughed when i heard this part, and he seems insulted)
(My co-worker are muslim, and this is all based on his personal experience)
Of course, i never tried it myself.
I have a job, i have a life. I'm too lazy to try proving this Ghost existence thing.
So i can't spoke much about this.
If you argue correctly, you're never wrong..

Offline Johnny Spunkypants

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Re: Ghosts. Do you believe?
« Reply #114 on: April 09, 2012, 09:08:10 AM »
So you didn't literally mean it as something that it's something you knew and you've verified for yourself? Then why did you say it?

When I experience something, I talk about it in a way which reflects what I make of it. Adverts tells us about products as if the product is good, politicians say what they say as if it is right, we all talk from our own point of view, we're all subjective, so when someone talks, you're getting not just the info but their slant on the info. If I think it was real, I'll talk about it as though it was real, because that's what I think. But if anyone asks me if it is real, I'll say that I think it is and that it may or may not be real but as far as I feel, it is. When people talk to each other face to face, they generally don't feel the need to constantly make disclaimers.

Peace.
I'm not here to defend my views. I'm here simply to give my two cents.

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Ghosts. Do you believe?
« Reply #115 on: April 09, 2012, 03:07:46 PM »
Then you should say that you have seen something (describe it) and it would probably fit the category of what most people would call a ghost. After that we can discuss what it might have been within known reality, before we dismiss everything and jump into the crazy pool.

What were the circumstances? Was it in the middle of the night (very realistic dream)? Was is in a spooky place (suggestion)? Were you taking drugs( &))? Under emotional stress ( :()? having a psychotic break ( :o)?  Under five years old  (:))?

When you start off by proposing beings from other dimensions, planets or vibrations, and then challenge the basis for knowing anything, expect flack from many of us. :P
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.