Author Topic: He wont? [#897]  (Read 2908 times)

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Offline DL

He wont? [#897]
« on: January 07, 2009, 11:56:31 PM »

Hey, I'm a Christian, watching your video "Ten Questions", and I would like to answer them as I go along. I'm certain you've received answers before, so I'll try not to be too stringy or extravagant, but straight-to-the-point as I can be. Also, I appreciate the effort put into producing this video, it is very well done.

Question 1 - Why wont God heal amputees?
Answer - Who said He doesn't?
The two facts you stated I must argue on, as I have heard indirect testimonies of healings like that, though they are indeed rare. Jesus replaced the ear on a slave of a high priest (See Luke 22:47-53, incident and context). Many accounts of people being raised from the dead (Biblical and modern).
God is certainly not limited by what we have or don't have, but by our faith- we often limit what we allow Him to do.

Question 2 - Why are there so many starving people in this world?
Answer - God is all knowing, all loving, and all powerful. Again, no prevention on His part, but on ours. And God has told us to "Bare one each others burdens" (Romans 15:1)- What are you doing to feed them?
And as far as "Why good things happen to bad people, and bad things happen to good people", I do know people of either way, but ultimately, those who have given their lives fully to Christ have been blessed, internally as well as externally.
This life is short, and as a Christian, with a hope of an eternity to spend with Him, hardships just seem small in comparison. Though it is not His will that any should perish, and He has sent us.

Question 3 - Why does God demand the death of so many innocent people?
Answer - He doesn't. He wants us to live and to thrive.
God is holy, and no imperfection is allowed or can survive in Him. For any sin, there is punishment- that sin must be removed. Besides, why not just obey God?
You'll see over and over again offering sacrifices in the Old Testament, to "roll forward" there sins, if you will. When Jesus came, He paid the price once and for all, because God is a loving God, and wishes no one should perish. (John 3:16) Jesus told us many times in the New Testament God is relationship, not religion.

Question 4 - Why is there so much anti-scientific nonsense in the Bible?
Answer - There isn't.
The four points you argued are only non-scientific if you consider them from an evolutionistic point of view, one which has neither been confirmed nor proven. But the moment you realize everything in your computer has existed by someone typing words, the moment you realize God really could have spoken the world and universe into existence. I do not wish to argue evolution/creation here, but if you wish to know more, I would be more than happy to tell you whatever you want to know, as well as what may be referenced to this question.
By the way- the Bible has been more scientific then we have been for longer. Look these passages up, you may be surprised.
Isaiah 40:22
Job 26:7
Job 38:16 (First possible to discover in the 1800's with deep-see diving suits)
Ecclesiastes 1:6-7
John 1:3 (Mysterious Strong Nuclear Force?)
As a few examples, though don't look to me for the best of them.


Question 5 - Why is God such a proponent of slavery in the Bible?
Answer - No, that's not what He intended. He intended us to live in utopia, but we sinned. Wherever we are, whatever position, He wants us to do it to our best, and considers no man more than another. Ecclesiastes 7:14 and Ephesians 6:5-9 are some passages that talk about that.

Question 6 - Why do bad things happen to good people?
Answer - Essentially answered in Question 2. But I have a question for you that may lead you to think on this more, which I will ask later on.

Question 7 - Why didn't any of Jesus miracles leave behind any evidence?
Answer - Isn't a person living you knew to be dead evidence enough? Or a lame person now walking clear to see God can do anything? Wouldn't you consider any other document of an eye witness to be valid information? And for the whatever we don't find, it is answered simply because God wants us to believe in Him and His power, not for a robotic computerized response, but out of trust. And He has left behind much evidence so we would believe.
Romans 10:17 is one verse on that.

Question 8 - How do you explain the fact that Jesus has never appeared to you?
Answer - Does He really need to? Jesus, as you reference Him, being still in the flesh- He went to heaven for a little bit to get things ready (John 14:2) and is about to take us back up (John 14:3). He's proven Himself to me, and shown Himself to me His way, and I can't argue with that. I don't deserve what He already has done in me :)
By the way, the prayer it seems your speaking of asking is one God told us He's not going to answer (Matthew 4:7). But if you truly pray with your heart for Him to prove Himself. He has done it for me and many others, and left us blown away :)

Question 9 - Why would Jesus want us to eat His flesh and drink His blood?
Answer - I know you understand Christ didn't tell us to eat Him like cannibals. He told us to eat bread and drink wine in remembering Him (1 Corinthians 11:23-26). There are two illustrations you can draw from what He said. Yes, one is graphic- the spilling of His blood for our sins, a reminder of the price He paid- in our place. Dying for our sins in the most horrid way a man could, between the scourging and Crucifixion.
The other, the complete opposite- a beautiful reminder that He is a part of us when we put Him in our lives- He is what moves us, what energizes us, what were made of, and so much a part of us we're fused into one- not a grotesque, gory depiction, but the image of a romance so divine and beautiful between a God and His creation.
(Matthew 26:26-29 for another account)

Question 10 - Why do Christians get divorced at the same rate as non-Christians?
Answer - Really, they don't.
That number, last I heard, was statistically higher. But the problem with that statistic is who the Christians are. By name or lifestyle. Real Christians, who know God and actually know real love, wont get divorced. Because they have realized love is not an emotion, but a choice-
And God doesn't take that choice away from us by forcing us into His will. He created us for love, and there's no point in being loved by a robot. Which is also why sin entered into this world, and why "bad" things happen to people. (1 Corinthians 13 on true love)

So, is any of these reasons sound like convoluted rationalizations, please let me know and I will explain them better, or have someone else do so.
So far I haven't created any strange rationalizations or excuses, have I?

Also, in saying "All scientific evidence supports this conclusion (That is, that answers to prayer are coincidence)" makes perfectly fine sense to me when I realize "coincidences" don't actually exist, but are Gods work instead.

And if indeed I am delusional, the Bible tells me to be a righteous, moral person loving everyone as myself- not a religious, persecuting cult. What harm can be done to society by love? And if your right, what standards do you have to go by to make yourself not?

Now, I have a few important questions to ask of my own, and I ask you to answer them honestly, as a rational, educated person that really does want to know the truth, or at least how I have answered yours.

1 - Without God, can you really define what is "good" and what is "bad"?
2 - Without God, why do you exist, and what hope do you have for anything?
3 - Without God, what is love?
4 - Why should you care?

Offline Astreja

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Re: He wont? [#897]
« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2009, 12:11:38 AM »
1 - Without God, can you really define what is "good" and what is "bad"?

Yes.  'Good' enhances the quality of life and 'bad' reduces it.  Some things are globally bad, such as murder; some things are relative to individuals.

And what makes you think that morality handed down from a god is any less subjective than morality established by personal experience and community consensus?

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2 - Without God, why do you exist, and what hope do you have for anything?

I exist because I exist.  There is no 'why' worthy of consideration.  I do not rely on 'hope' to get me through the day; I rely on action and mindfulness.

And I'm not in the least bit interested in eternal life.  Meaning exists in the here and now, not in some infinite future, and is not assigned to us by some supernatural overseer.

Who, by the way, would be in the same boat as us if it actually existed.  Where does your god get its meaning?

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3 - Without God, what is love?

Love is love.  Gods are not synonymous with love.  In fact, some gods (the god of the Bible, for instance), are really nasty S.O.B.'s.

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4 - Why should you care?

Because people with religious biases keep interfering in my day-to-day life, telling me what I should or should not be able to do with my own body or who I can and cannot marry.  They attempt to teach ancient mythology in science classes, and try to make non-believers pray along with them at public events... Or marginalize and ostracize them if they dare to offer a dissenting opinion.

You make that stop, and I'll gladly leave you alone.
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Offline Hermes

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Re: He wont? [#897]
« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2009, 02:31:04 AM »
Now, I have a few important questions to ask of my own, and I ask you to answer them honestly, as a rational, educated person that really does want to know the truth, or at least how I have answered yours.

1 - Without God, can you really define what is "good" and what is "bad"?
2 - Without God, why do you exist, and what hope do you have for anything?
3 - Without God, what is love?
4 - Why should you care?

Replies;

1. The same way that everyone else does.  Let me be clear; with your deity, can you define what 'good' or 'bad' is?  Consider your answer as it reflects the Euthyphro Dilemma;

http://www.philosophyofreligion.info/christian-ethics/divine-command-theory/the-euthyphro-dilemma

As far as you can tell, where does your deity get it's own morals?  Is your answer morality, for you, or do you honestly use another method?

2. The same way that you do ... as other Christians do ... and as do the 2 out of 3 people on the planet do not worship your deity;



(Obvious exception granted; the small fraction of people that are psychopaths.)

3. Long discussion on that one, tied to your first couple questions.  Once again, no god required.

4. Ahhh...do you mean why do I care about what you believe and why would I want you to change your beliefs?   Well, I don't necessarily.  What I care about is what you do.  I care about your actions.  Let me explain in some detail...



I have noticed, as you may have as well, that there are Christians that do things in the name of Christianity that are negative.  Christians that promote bigotry and ignorance.  Christians that advocate actions that lead to harm and even death.  Christians that advocate not caring about this world and who want it to be destroyed in a polluted and fiery apocalypse.

If there were enough Christians that effectively dealt with those problems, I would not have any concerns.  Believe as you want.  As far as I would be concerned, the real world problems would be solved.

Unfortunately, that is not the world we are in.  Most Christians aren't doing nearly enough.   Many unfortunately are actively promoting these negative goals -- from paying money passively to going out and doing these negative actions themselves.  Some of the strongest advocates for those negative actions are the leaders and congregants of the larger Christian churches and organizations; this is not a problem with a few fringe groups or eccentric cult leaders.

Too many Christians not only do not take responsibility, they are leading the charge for these negative actions.  They justify bigotry and ignorance, they justify actions that result in the deaths of others that could be easily avoided.

As a responsible person, someone who cares about the world and the future of humanity, I have to act.  Even if it is not my fault that these Christians are doing harm, it is my responsibility to do something positive.  You can consider it a moral obligation.  If that means that I have to hold up a mirror so that my fellow humans look at what they believe, then I'll take that modest step.  Maybe that will be enough to drain the air out of some of those bad ideas?

My question to you is not what you believe, but what are you doing about the acts your fellow Christians perform in the name of Christianity that spread hate, bigotry, ignorance, pain, and death?
Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons. --Michael Shermer

The history of religion is a long attempt to reconcile old custom with new reason, to find a sound theory for an absurd practice.  --Sir James George Frazer

Offline Dragnet

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Re: He wont? [#897]
« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2009, 08:14:24 AM »
Question 2 - Why are there so many starving people in this world?
Answer - God is all knowing, all loving, and all powerful. Again, no prevention on His part, but on ours. And God has told us to "Bare one each others burdens" (Romans 15:1)- What are you doing to feed them?
And as far as "Why good things happen to bad people, and bad things happen to good people", I do know people of either way, but ultimately, those who have given their lives fully to Christ have been blessed, internally as well as externally.
This life is short, and as a Christian, with a hope of an eternity to spend with Him, hardships just seem small in comparison. Though it is not His will that any should perish, and He has sent us.

Some followup because you seem to have a disconnect between what you say your god is and reality;
1:"God is all knowing", "All powerful", and "All Loving". If so then it knew in advance that there would be starvation and suffering but did nothing to stop it, This does not seem like a loving act to me.

"Problem of Evil " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_evil, and as Hermes pointed out;

"Euthyphro dilemma


Question 3 - Why does God demand the death of so many innocent people?
Answer - He doesn't. He wants us to live and to thrive.
God is holy, and no imperfection is allowed or can survive in Him. For any sin, there is punishment- that sin must be removed. Besides, why not just obey God?
To me this looks to be another disconnect;
The bolded part implies that your perception of your god is that it is perfect. What does a perfect being need? How could imperfect creations like humans have come out of perfection?


Now, I have a few important questions to ask of my own, and I ask you to answer them honestly, as a rational, educated person that really does want to know the truth, or at least how I have answered yours.
1 - Without God, can you really define what is "good" and what is "bad"?
2 - Without God, why do you exist, and what hope do you have for anything?
3 - Without God, what is love?
4 - Why should you care?

1: yes; Society in order to survive must come to an agreement as to what constitutes the best way for that to happen. So by agreement we have as a group decided what was good and bad.

2: I have no greater purpose than what I decide. I have hope that my children will live well. I have hope that I will live long enough to see a human walk on Mars thew same way I saw them on the moon. I have hope I will continue to learn new things up to the day I die. I hope that after I am dead that my body can be used to help future generations learn more about how the human body works.

3: Love is a subjective term that is completely different for each person expressing it. Love is a word used in language to describe many different emotions. In the end though it is nothing more than a chemical reaction to internal and external stimulus.

4: I care because this life is all there is and I am here, in it, experiencing it, so I decide what is important to me and do it.

Please join the forum and discuss these things with us.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2009, 08:17:10 AM by Dragnet »
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Offline Dkit

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Re: He wont? [#897]
« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2009, 09:42:45 AM »
Quote
Wouldn't you consider any other document of an eye witness to be valid information?
Would you?

There are some other "stories" of miracles by other men in the ancient world.  Here's just one:

A man of the people who was blind, and another who was lame, came to him together as he sat on the tribunal, begging for the help for their disorders which Serapis had promised in a dream; for the god declared that Vespasian would restore the eyes, if he would spit upon them, and give strength to the leg, if he would deign to touch it with his heel. Though he had hardly any faith that this could possibly succeed, and therefore shrank even from making the attempt, he was at last prevailed upon by his friends and tried both things in public before a large crowd; and with success. At this same time, by the direction of certain soothsayers, some vases of antique workmanship were dug up in a consecrated spot at Tegea in Arcadia and on them was an image very like Vespasian.
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/suetonius-vespasian.html

Kooks and Quacks of the Roman Empire: A Look into the World of the Gospels


Eye witness accounts are typically unreliable.  If you've ever played a game of "telephone" you would understand why.  That aside, none of the gospels claim to be eyewitness accounts and were written decades after the supposed events.  Not only that, none of the witness from the stories wrote anything down.  So, you don't have eye witness accounts, you have stories which cannot be verified in any objective manner.
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Offline AliveonChrist

Re: He wont? [#897]
« Reply #5 on: January 09, 2009, 12:49:42 AM »
Hello, I just joined this forum, and I am going to answer some questions and reply to some statements (For lack of time, I cannot talk about all of them, though I would like to) and I would like to do so as respectfully as possible. :)

For starters, I would like to reply to the first reply on this topic (please note this IS NOT a full quote of what was said)

Yes.  'Good' enhances the quality of life and 'bad' reduces it.  Some things are globally bad, such as murder; some things are relative to individuals.

I exist because I exist.  There is no 'why' worthy of consideration.  I do not rely on 'hope' to get me through the day; I rely on action and mindfulness.

And I'm not in the least bit interested in eternal life.  Meaning exists in the here and now, not in some infinite future, and is not assigned to us by some supernatural overseer.

Who, by the way, would be in the same boat as us if it actually existed.  Where does your god get its meaning?

Love is love.  Gods are not synonymous with love.  In fact, some gods (the god of the Bible, for instance), are really nasty S.O.B.'s.

First part-
Quote
'Good' enhances the quality of life and 'bad' reduces it.

Says who? It's a question I ask myself sometimes- just because I believe something doesn't make it right. What backing do you have for this claim?

The second part of what I quoted- it almost seems contradictory. First it is stated there is no why, in consideration of existence. And then it is stated meaning exists here and now. Could someone please clear this up for me?

Second to last part is a topic I would like to explain- God is not bound to our dimensions, or "in our boat" as false gods of other religions are. Just like I am not bound to the time nor dimensions of a 2-D video game I make, neither is God limited to what we are, which is why the Bible says, "...as it is written: "No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love Him" (1 Corinthians 2:9). Just like nothing in the video game could comprehend there being more than two dimensions.

The last part is something I have seen in many posts, that is, saying God is a terrible God and hates everyone. If this were the case, He wouldn't have sent His Son, Jesus, limited to our dimensions, into this world to pay for the punishment you and I deserve. (John 3:16) On the contrary, the God the Bible speaks about is a God of love (1 John 4:8 ...because God is love.). And in that love, He is just- a judge that is a just man, that loves people and wishes no one harm, would put in prison those who harm others, correct?

Offline AliveonChrist

Re: He wont? [#897]
« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2009, 01:11:37 AM »
By the way, there is another common theme I would like to note on right now, that is, basically, the alleged cruelty of Christians on the human race. In support of the original post, just because someone claims to be a Christian doesn't mean much. A real Christian is known by his fruit, not his name. I do think it is a shame, though, that many who claim to be Christians make themselves offensive, either because all they know is religion, or they really aren't, or because they simply don't know. There are many Scriptures telling us to not hate or telling us to simply love, like 1 Corinthians 10:32, telling us not to be offensive. A true Christian, living up to these standards, will show himself to be only offensive to those who utterly despise justice (Psalm 14:1, Proverbs 19:28). As best as I can I would like to represent Christianity to you. I will do my best to be respectful and honest, and to-the-point, like Jesus would. However I'm a human just like you guys so I'll probably make a few mistakes, and my time is very limited so it may be a while before I can post again.
I hope we can get something positive out of this discussion :)

Offline AliveonChrist

Re: He wont? [#897]
« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2009, 01:44:26 AM »


The bolded part implies that your perception of your god is that it is perfect. What does a perfect being need? How could imperfect creations like humans have come out of perfection?


I would like to reply to this as this effects everything.
Yes, God is perfect. (Psalm 18:30)
No, we are not. (Romans 3:23)
Yes, the Bible says we are created by Him, even in His image. (Genesis 1:27)
So where did sin come from?

Sin is separation from God. (Isaiah 59:2)

Think of it not like another substance that battles with God, but a vacuum made by rejecting Him. Just like darkness does not exist, but only light, or how cold doesn't exist, only heat.

Why would an all-loving, all-powerful, all-knowing God let this happen? Why would a perfect God need us?
Lets put it this way. You have two friends. Friend one was hired to be your friend. He has no other choice, he's just your friend because he's been hired to do that job.
Friend two, one day, out of the blue, just decided to be your friend, and to love you. No obligation, no command or request, just decided to be your friend.
Who would you feel loved by more?
Friend two, of course. In that same way, God gave us a choice- gave us free will- to love Him and to be loved by Him, and to love each other. (1 John)
No one really wants to be loved by a robot. But God, being who He is, knows how awesome love is- how amazing relationship is.
But we chose against Him, and that's when sin entered. That is why bad things happen. God is not going to force us to love Him, it's our choice.
Of course, He's a good God, and isn't going to allow sin to exist anymore, which is why He is about to wipe out this earth and make a new one, where we can worship Him and love Him because we've made that choice. (Isaiah 65:17)

This is not completely done, and many others probably could have made it half as long, but I hope this answers many of the questions and statements you guys have been saying:)

God bless

P.S. Another Scripture reference about Christians and how we are supposed to love- 1 John 3:10

Offline realdemocracy

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Re: He wont? [#897]
« Reply #8 on: January 09, 2009, 02:32:02 AM »
Yes.  'Good' enhances the quality of life and 'bad' reduces it.  Some things are globally bad, such as murder; some things are relative to individuals.

I exist because I exist.  There is no 'why' worthy of consideration.  I do not rely on 'hope' to get me through the day; I rely on action and mindfulness.

And I'm not in the least bit interested in eternal life.  Meaning exists in the here and now, not in some infinite future, and is not assigned to us by some supernatural overseer.

Who, by the way, would be in the same boat as us if it actually existed.  Where does your god get its meaning?

Love is love.  Gods are not synonymous with love.  In fact, some gods (the god of the Bible, for instance), are really nasty S.O.B.'s.

Says who? It's a question I ask myself sometimes- just because I believe something doesn't make it right. What backing do you have for this claim?
I cannot speak for Astreja, but on this issue, I think she hit the nail on the head.  The backing for this method of determining good and bad can be found by examining what most, if not all, human cultures consider good and bad.  Regardless of religion, politics or economics, these basic characteristics generally apply.

Quote from: AliveonChrist
Second to last part is a topic I would like to explain- God is not bound to our dimensions, or "in our boat" as false gods of other religions are. Just like I am not bound to the time nor dimensions of a 2-D video game I make, neither is God limited to what we are, which is why the Bible says, "...as it is written: "No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love Him" (1 Corinthians 2:9). Just like nothing in the video game could comprehend there being more than two dimensions.
You are avoiding her point here.  If there were a being who generally fit the description of Biblegod, what would be his purpose?  And how does the issue of our own purpose in the absence of such a being differ from the question of his purpose if he does exist?  

Quote from: AliveonChrist
The last part is something I have seen in many posts, that is, saying God is a terrible God and hates everyone. If this were the case, He wouldn't have sent His Son, Jesus, limited to our dimensions, into this world to pay for the punishment you and I deserve. (John 3:16) On the contrary, the God the Bible speaks about is a God of love (1 John 4:8 ...because God is love.).
You apparently do not realize that there is just as little reason to believe that Jesus was a real person, or if he was, that he was anything other than one of many Jewish revolutionaries, as there is to believe in Biblegod.  The only "evidence" offered is a book that is self-contradictory in several ways and blatantly wrong in many others.  Thus using Jesus to argue that God is not a jerk is a bit of circular reasoning.  Furthermore, many of us would not agree with your assumption that any of us "deserve" punishment.  Because the Bible claims that God is love does not make it so.  Actions speak louder than words.

Exodus 32:27-28
Exodus 35:2
Deuteronomy 21:18-21
Leviticus 20:10
Leviticus 20:13
http://www.godisimaginary.com/i13.htm
1 Corinthians 11:5-9
1 Corinthians 14:34-35
1 Timothy 2:11-12
and probably many more examples...

Quote from: AliveonChrist
And in that love, He is just- a judge that is a just man, that loves people and wishes no one harm, would put in prison those who harm others, correct?
Yes, but a just judge would not imprison someone merely for thinking the wrong thing.  Damning someone to Hell for: worshiping other gods and/or idols, taking his name in vain, forgetting the sabbath or working on it, homosexuality, premarital sex, or not accepting Jesus as savior, etc. is far from justice, and certainly seems to me to fall into the "jerk" category.

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Re: He wont? [#897]
« Reply #9 on: January 09, 2009, 03:54:30 AM »
1 - Without God, can you really define what is "good" and what is "bad"?
defining good & bad clearly is virtually impossible with or without a God - in fact it is rendered harder by going by the example of the biblical God, who is about as morally consistent as a two year old.  the only moral value that is relatively consistent world-wide is that it is good to place the well being of others before one's own, which still begs the question of what constitutes well-being.
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2 - Without God, why do you exist, and what hope do you have for anything?
why i exist is a question that can be answered metaphorically & spiritually by myth (in the sense that myth offers us higher, subjective truths), but in any literal or scientific framework is at this time unanswerable.  the fact that i do exist is indisputable and a moot point, at least to me.  what hope? for anything?  i have had many hopes & dreams that have been fulfilled, many that have not.  that's life. 
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3 - Without God, what is love?
love is 1) a feeling of emotional/sexual attraction one has towards another person (being "in love") and/or, and more importantly, 2) an action or actions one takes towards another person or other people that is motivated by some care for their well-being.
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4 - Why should you care?
why indeed?  you say you are a christian; as a fellow christian, let me give you some advice.  i've been trying to address similar issues in another thread.  it is pointless to try to attribute the existence of moral values to the dictates of a deity.  just for starters, it reduces the whole issue of morality to "because i said so", and if you think back to when you were a toddler, you may remember how much meaning that had then - it has as much meaning now, if not less. 
none of the questions you're raising here require the "existence" (whatever that is) of God to answer them.  that is beside the point.  you might be better off attempting to prove simply that not all of our decisions need to be objective ones, that indeed a healthy subjective framework of thinking is just as important as the ability to think objectively.  if you go there, you might be able to convince at least some of these atheistic folks that belief in a deity is as good as the person who holds it. 

but if you go trying to show cause & effect relationships of the sort you're attempting here you will accomplish nothing but getting rhetorically beaten to a pulp. 

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Re: He wont? [#897]
« Reply #10 on: January 09, 2009, 06:33:16 AM »
God is certainly not limited by what we have or don't have, but by our faith- we often limit what we allow Him to do.

Think hard and long on this statement. Why is it that humans can limit an omnipotent god? Perhaps it might be that this god is not truly real, but the invention of men.
If you are following God why can I still see you?

Offline velkyn

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Re: He wont? [#897]
« Reply #11 on: January 09, 2009, 02:45:09 PM »
By the way, there is another common theme I would like to note on right now, that is, basically, the alleged cruelty of Christians on the human race. In support of the original post, just because someone claims to be a Christian doesn't mean much. A real Christian is known by his fruit, not his name. I do think it is a shame, though, that many who claim to be Christians make themselves offensive, either because all they know is religion, or they really aren't, or because they simply don't know. There are many Scriptures telling us to not hate or telling us to simply love, like 1 Corinthians 10:32, telling us not to be offensive. A true Christian, living up to these standards, will show himself to be only offensive to those who utterly despise justice (Psalm 14:1, Proverbs 19:28). As best as I can I would like to represent Christianity to you. I will do my best to be respectful and honest, and to-the-point, like Jesus would. However I'm a human just like you guys so I'll probably make a few mistakes, and my time is very limited so it may be a while before I can post again.
I hope we can get something positive out of this discussion :)

Very old technique of claiming that you are the only "RealTrueChristiantm".  As soon as any of you can prove this, how about with some works greater than Jesus' as he said you could, you can take the throne.

and yuo seem to be intent on making your God less than omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent. 
"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

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Offline Dragnet

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Re: He wont? [#897]
« Reply #12 on: January 09, 2009, 04:09:30 PM »
I would like to reply to this as this effects everything.
Yes, God is perfect. (Psalm 18:30)
No, we are not. (Romans 3:23)
Yes, the Bible says we are created by Him, even in His image. (Genesis 1:27)
So where did sin come from?

Sin is separation from God. (Isaiah 59:2)

Sin came from the mind of men not wrote from some invisible inactive deity.
Sin was made up. Same as the concept of a god.

You wish to accept some dictate of primitive people that is fine, just don't try to tell me I have to by making laws and forcing your view in to the public education system.


Think of it not like another substance that battles with God, but a vacuum made by rejecting Him. Just like darkness does not exist, but only light, or how cold doesn't exist, only heat.

Why would an all-loving, all-powerful, all-knowing God let this happen? Why would a perfect God need us?
Lets put it this way. You have two friends. Friend one was hired to be your friend. He has no other choice, he's just your friend because he's been hired to do that job.
Friend two, one day, out of the blue, just decided to be your friend, and to love you. No obligation, no command or request, just decided to be your friend.
Who would you feel loved by more?
Friend two, of course. In that same way, God gave us a choice- gave us free will- to love Him and to be loved by Him, and to love each other. (1 John)
No one really wants to be loved by a robot. But God, being who He is, knows how awesome love is- how amazing relationship is.
But we chose against Him, and that's when sin entered. That is why bad things happen. God is not going to force us to love Him, it's our choice.
Of course, He's a good God, and isn't going to allow sin to exist anymore, which is why He is about to wipe out this earth and make a new one, where we can worship Him and love Him because we've made that choice. (Isaiah 65:17)

This is not completely done, and many others probably could have made it half as long, but I hope this answers many of the questions and statements you guys have been saying:)

God bless

P.S. Another Scripture reference about Christians and how we are supposed to love- 1 John 3:10

The only way to wipe out this imagined sin of yours is to wipe out the ability to think.

Honestly what you have said has answered nothing.
It explains little more than your self projection or your interpretation of the book you call the Bible.

Why do you accept the Bible? Why not the Quran?
Have you read any of the Talmud?

How about the Vedas, or perhaps the I-Ching?

How about a science book?

None of my "friends" would burn me in an everlasting torment just because I failed to trust something they told me without some sort of verification.

That is how an interactive relationship works.  50 years and count and still no answers from any of the supposed gods that have come and gone.

Just because you think yours has been around the longest does not make it any more real than Apollo or Zeus.

I will grant you that there are some very real and valuable philosophies espoused in some of the things attributed to Jesus, however his was not the first version of them. many people from may different places on the earth that never heard of YHWH or Jesus have the same philosophies.

It is called Social evolution.
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Offline Tails_155

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Re: He wont? [#897]
« Reply #13 on: January 09, 2009, 05:34:58 PM »
I'm taking the unproductive route and reminding everyone of Haddaway and Night at the Rocksbury, since he asked "What Is Love?"
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Offline Astreja

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Re: He wont? [#897]
« Reply #14 on: January 10, 2009, 02:52:48 AM »
Quote from: Astreja
'Good' enhances the quality of life and 'bad' reduces it.

Quote from: AliveonChrist
Says who? It's a question I ask myself sometimes- just because I believe something doesn't make it right. What backing do you have for this claim?

Says who?  Says me.  My experiences inform my morality, and for the most part I adhere to the Golden Rule.  If I dislike pain, i avoid inflicting it.  If I enjoy receiving gifts, I give them.  Simple reciprocity, no gods required.

Quote from: Astreja
I exist because I exist.  There is no 'why' worthy of consideration.  I do not rely on 'hope' to get me through the day; I rely on action and mindfulness.

Quote from: AliveonChrist
... almost seems contradictory. First it is stated there is no why, in consideration of existence. And then it is stated meaning exists here and now. Could someone please clear this up for me?

Simple.  'Meaning' has nothing to do with the reason we do things; it is full engagement in the doing itself, in realtime, in the eternal present. It is the place where 'you' step aside and commit yourself fully to what you are actually doing at that moment, without chattering to yourself about how your action fits into Life, the Universe and Everything.

Quote from: AliveonChrist
God is not bound to our dimensions, or "in our boat" as false gods of other religions are.

Unsupported assertion.  No evidence for the existence of your god.  No evidence that your god is any more "true" or "false" than those of other religions.  And quoting scriptures is not admissible as evidence.

Quote from: AliveonChrist
The last part is something I have seen in many posts, that is, saying God is a terrible God and hates everyone. If this were the case, He wouldn't have sent His Son, Jesus, limited to our dimensions, into this world to pay for the punishment you and I deserve.

Absolute slander against humanity.  No one, and I do mean no one, deserves eternal punishment.

No exceptions.

Not one in the entire universe.

I unequivocably reject John 3:16 with every fibre of my being, now and forever.  I want no part of a god who would condemn humanity with one hand and then attempt to "redeem" it with a blood sacrifice.
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Offline Hermes

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Re: He wont? [#897]
« Reply #15 on: January 10, 2009, 08:11:21 AM »
Quote from: AliveonChrist
... almost seems contradictory. First it is stated there is no why, in consideration of existence. And then it is stated meaning exists here and now. Could someone please clear this up for me?

Simple.  'Meaning' has nothing to do with the reason we do things; it is full engagement in the doing itself, in realtime, in the eternal present. It is the place where 'you' step aside and commit yourself fully to what you are actually doing at that moment, without chattering to yourself about how your action fits into Life, the Universe and Everything.

What I love about these forums is that the explanations given are so often concise and powerful, practical and wise.
Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons. --Michael Shermer

The history of religion is a long attempt to reconcile old custom with new reason, to find a sound theory for an absurd practice.  --Sir James George Frazer

Offline singlecrochet

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Re: He wont? [#897]
« Reply #16 on: January 10, 2009, 11:48:50 AM »

 Dying for our sins in the most horrid way a man could, between the scourging and Crucifixion.

Study your history!  1) Jesus died just like ALL the other criminals before and after him did in that time and place.  Nothing out of the ordinary about it at all.  2) People, before and after Jesus, have died far worse, more gruesome, more painful deaths.  Do you know what "drawn and quartered" means?

Heck, there are people dying right now, long, miserable deaths who are suffering more than Jesus did.
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Offline AliveonChrist

Re: He wont? [#897]
« Reply #17 on: February 02, 2009, 03:03:01 PM »
Hey guys! Sorry it's been so long! I'm going to make an effort over the next couple of months to be active here at this forum.
Anywho, so back to the oriogional questions- So far all I've gotten for determining good from bad, from a perspective outside of the Bible, is that it's either non-existant or it is determined by humanity. Is this correct? Please do correct me if my impression is wrong. Thanks! :)

Offline Hermes

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Re: He wont? [#897]
« Reply #18 on: February 02, 2009, 03:20:53 PM »
Hey guys! Sorry it's been so long! I'm going to make an effort over the next couple of months to be active here at this forum.
Anywho, so back to the oriogional questions- So far all I've gotten for determining good from bad, from a perspective outside of the Bible, is that it's either non-existant or it is determined by humanity. Is this correct? Please do correct me if my impression is wrong. Thanks! :)

I'd like to continue a conversation, yet you don't seem to have responded to my initial comments.

Here are two of them;

Now, I have a few important questions to ask of my own, and I ask you to answer them honestly, as a rational, educated person that really does want to know the truth, or at least how I have answered yours.

1 - Without God, can you really define what is "good" and what is "bad"?
2 - Without God, why do you exist, and what hope do you have for anything?

Replies;

1. The same way that everyone else does.  Let me be clear; with your deity, can you define what 'good' or 'bad' is?  Consider your answer as it reflects the Euthyphro Dilemma;

http://www.philosophyofreligion.info/christian-ethics/divine-command-theory/the-euthyphro-dilemma

As far as you can tell, where does your deity get it's own morals?  Is your answer morality, for you, or do you honestly use another method?

2. The same way that you do ... as other Christians do ... and as do the 2 out of 3 people on the planet do not worship your deity;



(Obvious exception granted; the small fraction of people that are psychopaths.)
Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons. --Michael Shermer

The history of religion is a long attempt to reconcile old custom with new reason, to find a sound theory for an absurd practice.  --Sir James George Frazer

Offline Tails_155

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Re: He wont? [#897]
« Reply #19 on: February 02, 2009, 03:48:33 PM »
well... even inside the bible right and wrong are determined by man, just written as a god
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Offline realdemocracy

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Re: He wont? [#897]
« Reply #20 on: February 03, 2009, 12:07:57 AM »
Hey guys! Sorry it's been so long! I'm going to make an effort over the next couple of months to be active here at this forum.
Anywho, so back to the oriogional questions- So far all I've gotten for determining good from bad, from a perspective outside of the Bible, is that it's either non-existant or it is determined by humanity. Is this correct? Please do correct me if my impression is wrong. Thanks! :)
I can confirm for you that my response was that it can indeed be derived by noting those various principles which seem to be universal among almost all human cultures, by which I mean throughout recorded history, in all parts of the globe, regardless of religion or language or technological advancement.  That's a little more specific than simply "determined by humanity," but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and presume that you understand this when you use that phrase.


Offline AliveonChrist

Re: He wont? [#897]
« Reply #21 on: February 06, 2009, 10:33:51 PM »

1. The same way that everyone else does.  Let me be clear; with your deity, can you define what 'good' or 'bad' is? 

As far as you can tell, where does your deity get it's own morals?  Is your answer morality, for you, or do you honestly use another method?

2. The same way that you do ... as other Christians do ... and as do the 2 out of 3 people on the planet do not worship your deity;


I don't understand entirely how either of these answer the questions- "The same way that everyone else does" doesn't tell me what way (of determining morality) it is. I'll admit the questions were not worded the best, however what your definitions are is in my interest to know.
For your second answer... if you existed for the same reason I do, and had the same hope I have, it's entirely dependent on God. And last I knew, you were in defense of atheism- please, though, correct me if I am wrong.

To answer your questions, God does not accept or receive moral from anything or anybody- He creates it. He, simply, is good- He is God. He is Righteous (Psalm 16:2, Isaiah 45:21, Psalm 50:6, Isaiah 5:16). But what is in question here is how you, as an atheist, defines morality.

But, right now, I would still like to know if my impression is wrong about your morality, or at least how you believe it.
Without God, it's either non-existent or it is determined by humanity.

By the way, I'll do my best to stay on topic and avoid bringing up anymore red herrings.
God bless

Offline Hermes

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Re: He wont? [#897]
« Reply #22 on: February 07, 2009, 12:31:57 AM »
1. The same way that everyone else does.  Let me be clear; with your deity, can you define what 'good' or 'bad' is?  Consider your answer as it reflects the Euthyphro Dilemma;

http://www.philosophyofreligion.info/christian-ethics/divine-command-theory/the-euthyphro-dilemma


As far as you can tell, where does your deity get it's own morals?  Is your answer morality, for you, or do you honestly use another method?

2. The same way that you do ... as other Christians do ... and as do the 2 out of 3 people on the planet do not worship your deity;

I don't understand entirely how either of these answer the questions- "The same way that everyone else does" doesn't tell me what way (of determining morality) it is. I'll admit the questions were not worded the best, however what your definitions are is in my interest to know.

Examine the part of my comment that you cut out -- the Euthyphro Dilemma -- and think a bit about it.  No kidding, the Euthyphro Dilemma is difficult to grasp (it's a dilemma after all), but once you do the issues should snap into focus.

For your second answer... if you existed for the same reason I do, and had the same hope I have, it's entirely dependent on God. And last I knew, you were in defense of atheism- please, though, correct me if I am wrong.

That ignores quite a few other options ... the most common one is that we are both humans and share reality.

To answer your questions, God does not accept or receive moral from anything or anybody- He creates it. He, simply, is good- He is God. He is Righteous (Psalm 16:2, Isaiah 45:21, Psalm 50:6, Isaiah 5:16). But what is in question here is how you, as an atheist, defines morality.

But, right now, I would still like to know if my impression is wrong about your morality, or at least how you believe it.
Without God, it's either non-existent or it is determined by humanity.

Euthyphro addresses this.  Let me know what you think after tackling it.  Don't treat it as something trivial, though.  The ED makes the Problem of Evil look like a dot on a Seurat.

Once you are done, let me know if you have any questions.
Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons. --Michael Shermer

The history of religion is a long attempt to reconcile old custom with new reason, to find a sound theory for an absurd practice.  --Sir James George Frazer

Offline Tails_155

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Re: He wont? [#897]
« Reply #23 on: February 07, 2009, 01:42:46 AM »
There's already a topic in Gen. Relig. Disc. what refers to the Christian God is not omnibenevolent, nor omnipotent
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