Author Topic: The big bang theory is bs!  (Read 21208 times)

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Offline Gnu Ordure

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Re: The big bang theory is bs!
« Reply #522 on: October 30, 2011, 08:55:33 AM »
Godexists:
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Right. So you can lead a good life as a Jew, and end up being tortured to death by Hitler's regime, and then go to Hell. Whereas Hitler can repent on his death-bed, and go to Heaven.
They could repent and accept Jesus Christ as well. As Jews. The offer of forgiveness is for everybody, also, and actually specially for jews, since they are the elected Volk of God.
You dodged my main point. Please answer it; I said:

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He would have not paid for his sins
Indeed. Jesus paid for them, we're agreed on that.

Yet in your appeal to eternal justice, you said:
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Its not right that Hitler does not have to pay for what he did.
So you're still contradicting yourself. You say that Hitler should be punished, or be made to pay, for his crimes, yet accept that he could have gone to Heaven unpunished, if he'd repented.

Offline Godexists

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Re: The big bang theory is bs!
« Reply #523 on: October 30, 2011, 08:58:12 AM »
They could repent and accept Jesus Christ as well. As Jews. The offer of forgiveness is for everybody, also, and actually specially for jews, since they are the elected Volk of God.

So............. god like that boss who has a hundred subordinates and brings his favorite employee home to met his daughter, but that employee thinks she's a butterface with a large ass and bushy eye-brows and no tits and he wants nothing to do with her, but will remain loyal to the company anyways, but the father is like, "ah, your fired for not dating my daughter! Get out of my site. Sure, you do the best work out of everyone at the company, but if you don't date my daughter your going to lose all the benefits the company has to provide for you. To keep the benefits and your job date my precious little girl. "

God's a horrible boss.

to begin with : God is the boss only of the ones, that actually WANT him as their boss. He knocks on each ones door , he does not simply come in. And secondly, we are all naturally on the highway to hell, since we all deserve just that. Its Gods grace that permits us to escape from hell. But he does not obligate you, or anyone else, to be saved. Many simply do not want to live with God, and go the heaven. God would be terrible, if he obligated us to live with him. He gives each of us our freedom, to choose, where we want to spend eternity. But God is just, and his justice demands for punishment for our sins. The consequence of sin, is death.

Offline C

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Re: The big bang theory is bs!
« Reply #524 on: October 30, 2011, 09:03:09 AM »
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to begin with : God is the boss only of the ones, that actually WANT him as their boss. He knocks on each ones door , he does not simply come in.

Except in the case of a certain gal..



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And secondly, we are all naturally on the highway to hell, since we all deserve just that.

Repulsive thinking. No matter what kind of good deeds humans do, they're still deserving of hell. This of course includes the newly born, the elderly and the very few innocents who have fortunately never become tainted with Christianity in their culture.

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Its Gods grace that permits us to escape from hell.

Proof? I wonder who the hell made hell? Huh.

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But he does not obligate you, or anyone else, to be saved. Many simply do not want to live with God, and go the heaven. God would be terrible, if he obligated us to live with him. He gives each of us our freedom, to choose, where we want to spend eternity. But God is just, and his justice demands for punishment for our sins. The consequence of sin, is death.

Preaching-mode on.
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Offline jetson

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Re: The big bang theory is bs!
« Reply #525 on: October 30, 2011, 09:45:05 AM »

to begin with : God is the boss only of the ones, that actually WANT him as their boss. He knocks on each ones door , he does not simply come in. And secondly, we are all naturally on the highway to hell, since we all deserve just that. Its Gods grace that permits us to escape from hell. But he does not obligate you, or anyone else, to be saved. Many simply do not want to live with God, and go the heaven. God would be terrible, if he obligated us to live with him. He gives each of us our freedom, to choose, where we want to spend eternity. But God is just, and his justice demands for punishment for our sins. The consequence of sin, is death.

You are presenting your own interpretation of what God wants, or what he does with regards to humans.  I'm sure you are aware that what you have written is not something that all Christian religions believe about God. 

The god of the Bible most certainly does enter into the lives of people wihtout any concern for what they want.  If you recall from the OT, God actually commands the killing of entire towns of people who are otherwise living apart from that god, or who openly reject him.  If what you say were true, then this god would simply let these people eventually live in eternal Hell, as opposed to physically commanding their murder.  And don't get me started on the flood genocide.  How can you possibly believe the words you wrote, when you know damn well that God was displease with ALL humans, and drowned them all in a flood?

Finally, you are on the highway to Hell, I am not.  You are a sinner, I am not.  And you can foist your belief upon the rest of humanity until the day you die, but it won't make a single bit of difference to those who don't share your delusion.

You are apparently hopelessly trapped in a delusion that was created thousands of years before your greatest grandparents, and you are attempting to live your life within this mythology, as though it matters, and as though it is somehow real.  That is your personal problem, and the only way out is to keep it to yourself, and suffer internally, or drop the delusion and get on with your life.

Offline caveat_imperator

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Re: The big bang theory is bs!
« Reply #526 on: October 30, 2011, 10:05:17 AM »
So, it's just going to be hand-waving, unssuported assertions, and ad homs from GE from now on?
You can't prove a negative of an existence postulate.

Offline C

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Re: The big bang theory is bs!
« Reply #527 on: October 30, 2011, 10:17:08 AM »
So, it's just going to be hand-waving, unssuported assertions, and ad homs from GE from now on?

Gosh! Next time, put a SPOILER ALERT message before you post.  :P
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Offline ungod

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Re: The big bang theory is bs!
« Reply #528 on: October 30, 2011, 10:32:35 AM »
I don't imply anything. But the mere fact you do not kill little babies with pleasure, shows you have a moral innate conscience.

Here's what your god had to say about that.....

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Blessed be he that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock.
- Psalm 137:9

Of course, the usual evas, er, response, is that since we are God's creation, He owns us and can do whatever He wants, not being bound by morals.
So, does it seem logical that someone who is immoral should be setting morals for others?
Ever heard of hypocrisy and double standards?
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Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding. - Martin Luther

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Offline ungod

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Re: The big bang theory is bs!
« Reply #529 on: October 30, 2011, 10:37:33 AM »
Hey there, Godexists - I've been looking for a Bible believer. So, in accordance with

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Give to him who asks of you, AND do not turn away from him who wants to borrow from you." Jesus, Matthew 5:42

I'm asking you to give me all your savings, and lend me your car and computer. How about it?
Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has.
Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding. - Martin Luther

"What good fortune for those in power that people do not think." - Hitler

Offline One Above All

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Re: The big bang theory is bs!
« Reply #530 on: October 30, 2011, 10:39:18 AM »
Hey there, Godexists - I've been looking for a Bible believer. So, in accordance with

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Give to him who asks of you, AND do not turn away from him who wants to borrow from you." Jesus, Matthew 5:42

I'm asking you to give me all your savings, and lend me your car and computer. How about it?

After your car and computer are returned, I want them. Permanently.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Offline Astreja

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Re: The big bang theory is bs!
« Reply #531 on: October 30, 2011, 10:48:14 AM »
...we are all naturally on the highway to hell, since we all deserve just that.

Are you serious, GE?

Let Me restate that:  Are you fucking serious?

You honestly think that billions of thinking, feeling sentient beings are fit only for eternal torture?

That is demented.  That is, not to put too fine a point on it,  psychosis painted over with a thin veneer of mythological woo-woo.

Do Me a favour:  Don't ever apply for a position of responsibility in any company on the face of this planet.  You are not fit to lead humans anywhere, for any reason whatsoever.  I wouldn't trust the likes of you to muck out My cats' litter boxes.
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Online jaimehlers

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Re: The big bang theory is bs!
« Reply #532 on: October 30, 2011, 11:59:54 AM »
Then bring a strong reason, why we, humans, do have a conscience, while all animal world has not, but survives, as we do. To have a conscience is not necessary for survival.
Do you even know what you're talking about?  The conscience is about what is good or not good for the survival of the group.  And there's plenty of examples of this in the wild, where an animal that is part of a group will provide food or protection for other members of that group.  That is most certainly evidence of a conscience, and it enhances the survival prospects of the group as a whole.  So you are simply wrong about humans having consciences but animals not having consciences.

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If he wanted robots, he could have created them. He created beings with free will, and gave them the oportunity to obey him, or not.
And what makes you think that thinking robots would not have free will?  If something is able to think, it is able to exercise initiative, and the exercise of initiative is essentially free will (doing things that one was not told to do).  And what he did, was tell them they would surely die if they ate the apples.  When you essentially tell someone that they'll die if they do something, it's hardly giving them the 'opportunity' to obey.  I reiterate, God wanted thinking robots that would do as they were told regardless of whether it was 'good' or 'bad', but who could act without precise directions.

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They had already a conscience, but it wake up only, after they sinned.
Wrong!  Genesis explicitly states that the apples were from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.  That means right or wrong, that means they didn't have consciences before they ate the apples, since the conscience is what tells us something is right or wrong.  Eating the apples is what gave Adam and Eve consciences; claiming that God gave them consciences that weren't active until after they ate the apples is pure sophistry.  Your theology makes this quite clear, and your attempt to deny the plain fact that it does is nothing but denial.

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But they did understand it, since God told them, it was wrong to eat from the three of knowledge, and if they would eat from it, they would die.
No, they did not 'understand' it.  God gave them an order and expected that it would be obeyed, because they didn't have consciences to tell them that it would be right or wrong to do so.  It was just a matter of obeying his command.  They didn't question it or even think about it, until the snake talked them into it.  And even then, it wasn't about whether it was right or wrong to eat the apple, it was about whether they would die if they did (in other words, whether the statement God had made was correct).

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non sequitur. he did not order them to stay away from the tree, but not to eat from its fruit. Of course he wanted us to do the right thing, which was not to eat from the tree.
Now you're just nitpicking; you plainly know what I meant.  If you want to play that game, we can play that game.  Or we can focus on actually discussing stuff that matters.

And in any case, you're wrong here.  He didn't want Adam and Eve to do the right thing, he wanted them to do whatever he told them to do.  He wanted them to obey.  If you want someone to do the right thing, you don't order them to, you explain the reasons and convince them that it is the right thing to do.  God only wanted blind obedience.

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Do you live following this line of thougt ? that a human being is not worth more than a amoeba ?
Of course not.  But I don't believe that way because of some imaginary objective morality.  I believe that way because I was taught to by my parents and by society, ala subjective morality.  If I had been born in, say, Edo period Japan, in one of the noble samurai families, then I might believe that ordinary peasants were nothing more than beasts of burden, to be beheaded on a mere whim.  Again, subjective morality.  The fact that morality differs so much between cultures is proof positive that there's no objectivity to it.

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The conscience of morals does not prevent humans to to bad things. Its just a signal of alert, that something is wrong.
Which is my point.  If someone does not believe something is wrong to do, if they believe it is the way things should be, then their conscience will not 'alert' them of anything.  The conscience is based on subjective morality, not on some pretend objective morality.

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following your line of reasong, it does actually not. One day we will be all dead, and then it will not make any difference at all. We will not be charged.
This is not following my line of reasoning, this is nothing more than you applying the same tiresome repetitive line of 'reasoning' that you've been spouting all along and then claiming that it's mine - which, by the way, is a very deceitful and dishonest way to argue, and I'll ask you once not to do so again.

Of course it makes a difference!  It makes a difference to the people who live after us.  Not by pretending that evildoers are going to be punished in some eternal hell (except for the evildoers who 'repent' and beg forgiveness, who then get rewarded in some eternal heaven), but by working to make sure that other evildoers don't get the opportunity to repeat their mistakes.  Even if there is no afterlife, what happens on this world matters to everyone who lives after us.  It means we'd better not screw things up beyond repair, cause there's no second chances and no consolation prizes.

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why should someone want to be remembered ? what difference does it make ? one day, humanity, and our world will not exist anymore. So what we do today, makes no difference at all in the end.
I'm sorry that you believe this, but it doesn't make that true at all.  In fact, you're projecting your own bleak nihilistic view of a universe without God onto people who don't believe in God, except that they don't hold that view, so you end up needlessly making a fool of yourself.  So what if it doesn't matter at the end, however long it takes?  It matters to the people who will live their lives in tomorrows yet to come, and I believe that it's only right to do what we can to make sure those people get to live their lives.

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that will past. And it does not any good to them. They are dead.
And there'll be new heroes who have done what they could to help human civilization along.  Most of them didn't do what they did out of some desire to be remembered in posterity, they did what they did because it was the right thing to do for all the people who had not yet lived.

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they don't care if we honor them or not. They are dead. And so we will be one day. In the end, if god does not exist,  it makes no difference at all, what we did on earth.
But I care if I honor them.  And countless generations yet to come will care about honoring their heroes, even though those heroes are long dead and gone.  Yes, everyone dies in the end.  Again, so what?  Pretending that nothing matters if there is no God is pure selfishness.  The people who don't yet live are only potential at this point, but it's our obligation to give them the opportunity to live their lives, just as we were given the opportunity to live our lives by those who came before us.  That's worth doing regardless of anything else.

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You rely again on a negative. God that ? You are not able to present a case of its own ? And : might explain, why God is a complicated explanation ?
An explanation which includes God is a more complicated explanation than one that does not include God, the same way as an equation that adds variables or constants is more complicated than one that does not.  It only seems the opposite because the one who uses God to explain everything can just say "God did it" and not have to attempt to come up with a real explanation.  And as for presenting my own speculative explanation, I already have several times, and you've dismissed them without even a serious attempt at consideration.  Why should I keep coming up with more merely so that you can continue dismissing them?

[qu
Quote from: Godexists
might wanna present yours ? so far, you have not.
I already did.  Several times.  The fact that you're still claiming that I have not suggests either that you do not understand that you can't rule out another person's speculative explanations by saying that they're 'impossible', or that you are deliberately being deceitful about what I've been saying.  There really isn't any point in considering another alternative, considering the fact that you keep doing it despite my calling you on it.

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well, if in fact these people will never been charged, its indeed irreparable. Unjustice is done.
So work to improve justice in your country, instead of pretending that God will punish the criminals for you.  Because the real injustice is the fact that you're presumably content to let God 'fix' things in the afterlife instead of making a real effort to fix them in this world.

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that does not change the fact, that if God does not exist, Hitler and many others like him will never be charged for his crimes. Do you think that is just ?
Justice is about the living, not the dead.  Since Hitler and those others are dead, what is the point in sitting here complaining because they won't be punished for them?  Dead is dead.  I prefer to focus on the living.  We can't change what happened in the past, but we can do our best to make sure that it doesn't continue to happen in the future.

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Its also important, that justice is done. If God does not exist, evil in the end, wins.
Nonsense.  Evil isn't the result of some malign supernatural entity, anymore than morality is the result of some benevolent supernatural entity.  If there is no Go(o)d, there's no (d)Evil, either.  In that case, the worst that can happen is that everything winds down once the universe dies its heat death.  That is hardly "evil winning".

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where does the bible say that ?
You're the one that said that.  You're the one that said, quite explicitly, that we are all on a "highway to hell".  So either you got that from the Bible and your theology, or you made it up.  Either way, you don't get to sit here and play dumb about it now.

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its not just about begging bargain. A truly born again christian repents from his sins, and begins a new life, where the will  of God is parameter, and is followed.
Yes, it most certainly is about a plea bargain.  Even born-again Christians screw up, but as long as they're earnest about being "obedient to God", it doesn't matter what they do or who they hurt after the fact anymore than it matters what they did or who they hurt beforehand.

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If he were a true christian, he would have never commited the atrocities he did.
No True ScotsmanWiki?  Please.  Christians have slaughtered both nonbelievers and other Christians in job lots because they felt God commanded them to do it.  You cannot disavow Hitler as "no true Christian" simply because those atrocities are no longer acceptable.

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that is a real possibility.

it would not be just, if Jesus sacrifice was not real, and would have no effect. But Jesus suffering was real, and since he never sinned, he was capable of taking upon him the sin of all humanity, and pay its price for it, which was his death.
It is completely and utterly unjust in every way, shape, and form, for a criminal to get out of paying for the crimes they committed merely by "turning over a new leaf".  And your statement that a mere passion play could expiate all crimes that everyone in the future would ever commit is ludicrous.  It gives the lie to your claims about how 'unjust' it is that someone like Hitler never got 'charged' for his crimes, because as far as you're concerned he could completely get out of being 'charged' simply by having a sincere belief in Jesus as savior, but someone else who lived an overall good life has to pay a 'penalty' that is both vile and monstrous merely because they do not have that belief.

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what is relevant however, is, that if you perform a experiment one hundred times, and the result is always the same, then you can confidently deduce something about it, and use it for certain things. If you follow your line of reasoning, you will end with absolute nihilism, where you never will be able to know something. Maibe i am a robot, that writes here, not a human being. How do you know ? In historical science, you cannot test the age of the earth....
Quit trying to pin your nihilistic theorycrafting on me.  It is your belief, not mine, and you do not get to claim that it is mine merely because you are incapable of imagining anyone who disagrees with you believing any different.  If you are not even competent enough to understand how utterly dishonest this tactic is, you have no business in this discussion in the first place.

What I actually said was that you can't be absolutely sure that the result will always come out the same, because absolute certainty is impossible to obtain.  Yes, once you are reasonably sure and have had it confirmed by others, then you can deduce things from it.  But it is foolishness to assume that just because it's always come up one way, that it always will come up that same way.  And historical science is the same way.  They have methods that can be used to date the Earth, the Sun, fossils, etc, and they can get to a reasonable level of certainty by performing the tests a sufficient number of times, exactly the same as in experimental science.  You can't sit here and claim that the testing methods used with experimental science give a reasonable amount of certainty, while the same testing methods used with historical science cannot give any certainty at all.  That only shows a basic lack of understanding and proves that you don't know what you're talking about.

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I don't know. All i know that this one happened EXACTLY the way he predicted.

absolutely. I never met him before. I actually did not even live yet in the city, where i met my wife. I was completely new in town.

He did not even know where my farm was, even less, who my worker was.......
In other words, you don't know at all, do you?  You're simply assuming that he can't have known anything about you simply because you hadn't met him.

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impossible.

i am not naiv on that......but you will doubt of course, since it does not fit your agenda.......
I would rather doubt a statement by someone who has tacitly admitted that he doesn't know for sure despite claiming that it's impossible, than be the one who credulously believes it had to be a divine miracle without bothering to confirm it.

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we are talking about religious issues, where the only thing we can discuss is interpretation. nothing more.
Sorry, but trying to claim that the only thing we can discuss about religion is how it's interpreted is incorrect.  If you cannot demonstrate that your religion is correct to someone, then why should they accept your interpretation of things?  You're putting the cart before the horse.

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neither did i claim that. But since you agree , that all we believe, is based on assumptions, you neither can claim, that you stick to a standpoint only, after you have absolute proofs on hand.
Just because we have to assume certain things true in math in order to get anywhere doesn't mean it is at all reasonable to assume God simply because you want him to be real. 

Quote from: Godexists
Wrong. Actually i have. You just don't agree with me.
I don't agree with you because your so-called 'proof' is nothing more than saying it's impossible and throwing quotes at me from blog posts, creationist web sites, and stuff taken way out of context to try to support your statement.  That isn't proof, it's opinion, and not even convincing.

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nope. I have made a claim, which is supported by science.
Not hardly.  The only way you can say something is supported by science is if it has actual evidence to support it.  If it does not, it's speculation.

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did stars exist beyond our univese ?
What does that have to do with anything?

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which is which explanation, you refere to ?
You've arbitrarily tossed out every speculative explanation I've said.  You don't now get to pretend I haven't actually offered one.

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if you want to troll, now, go ahead.....
Nope, I don't troll.  You, on the other hand, have presented nothing but ignorant and biased statements that are predicated on the assumption that your belief is true even though it can't be proven, and you've constantly dismissed and disregarded everything that everyone in this topic has said to the contrary.  So I would think twice before trying to suggest that people are trolling against you.

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If you want to discard scientific evidence, go ahead. dawkins, hawking, davies, stenger, and many more disagree with you......
They use the term for convenience's sake, but you might notice that they generally use it in a colloquial sense, not in actual scientific research.  And you of all people have no business trying to call anyone on "discarding scientific evidence", given your tendency to dismiss anything that you don't like or that you can't answer.

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any evidence, or you just speculate ?
Of course I'm speculating.  The difference is, I'm being honest about it in saying that I don't have actual evidence to support my speculations.  Unlike you, who constantly says that you have evidence, except that your 'evidence' depends on being interpreted in a very specific manner, and if it's interpreted even slightly differently, it doesn't work.  Dare I say that your speculations are fine-tuned, since you're so fond of that term?

Quote from: Godexists
the chance of a other life permitting plante has been calculated, and its beyond a reasonable number. Its a almost infinitely small chance, this to happen, that it can be discarded as a valid or probable hypotheses.
It's been 'calculated' by people who don't actually know for sure what the real odds are, let alone how they might work together.  But since they have a vested interest in 'proving' that it's excessively improbable, they pretend they can actually come up with the odds just by multiplying a bunch of arbitrary values together.  So the only safe conclusion to make is that the calculation is worthless for actually figuring anything out.  It's just a way for them to use 'statistics' to lie.

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Its said that a probability less than one to 10^50 is most likely to never happen.
Go study actual probability before you make any more statements like the above.  Seriously, you're just making a fool out of yourself by speaking from uneducated ignorance about it.

Quote from: Godexists
the fine tune argument has nothing to do with that.
Proving only that you can ape the creationist line.  It's extremely convenient for creationists to claim that the parameters of the universe had to have been finely-tuned in order to come out how they did.  What most actual scientists say is that it seems like the constants might have been fine-tuned, because they aren't sure yet what might have caused it.  It could easily be something like what I said, that the constants are all derivatives and thus only one matters, or it could be a self-organizing principle based on the ways physical laws work, or any one of a number of other ideas.  There is no evidence that any "fine-tuning" actually occurred.

Quote from: Godexists
So you should doubt about everything then. Even about the fact, that you eventually exist. you cannot prove that. You might be a hallucination.
I think I can reasonably say that the universe actually exists and that I'm not a hallucination.  I can't absolutely prove it, but absolute proof is impossible to obtain.  But the fact that there isn't absolute proof doesn't mean that I'm going to disappear in a puff of logic sometime down the line.

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even lets say the universe is cyclical. It does not eliminate the fact that it has to have a beginning. So you throw the quest just further back.
So, where is the beginning of a circle?  Where's the end of a circle?  If the universe is cyclical, and the end feeds into the beginning, then it always existed, with no true End nor Beginning.

Quote from: Godexists
done that already.
No.  You haven't.  I don't mean go look at the conclusions of someone equally uneducated about probability and assume you know how it works.  I mean go actually study how it really works.  Probability is very nontuitive (non-intuitive), and it is difficult to get right even if someone is properly educated about it.  It's immensely more difficult if all you're doing is looking at random web sites which argue from ignorance.

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You have bad cards on hand.... really.
Yeah?  Coming from someone who obviously doesn't know how probability works, you'll excuse me for not believing you.

Quote from: Godexists
and it gets even worse. A cell is irreducibly complex.
All that quote really says is that scientists don't currently understand how it can work without being recursive.  It most certainly doesn't prove the ridiculous statement that a cell is irreducibly complex.

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You do know that Einstein was a physicist, right?  Even assuming this is an accurate statement by Einstein taken in context and not simply quote-mining[1], it's a little much to expect me or anyone to believe that Einstein had thoroughly studied the subject in the detail he would have needed to in order to be considered an expert on it.
 1. Which is questionable, because I could not find an original source for this statement.

Quote from: Godexists
You don't need to rely on a expert to understand, that from apples, never strawberries will be produced. They are after all quit different. So is information and conscience. Information can be destroid. Matter cannot.
This has nothing at all to do with your earlier statement about Einstein or my response to it.  As for information, it can be lost, but to say it can be destroyed is patently ridiculous.  If you burn a book that contains information, the information is lost, but it can be discovered again.  So it isn't 'destroyed'.  Even if you were to throw all the copies of some book, and everyone who knew anything about the copies, down a black hole or into the sun, the information therein wouldn't be destroyed, it would be lost.  Nothing stopping someone from independently coming up with it again.

Quote from: Godexists
no, because there is plenty of scientific evidence to back up this claim. Its actually the atheists, that assume its a false concept, because they do not want it to be true.
There isn't any actual scientific evidence to favor "irreducible complexity".  It is only based on a patent and possibly deliberate misunderstanding of how biology actually works, and is only used as an attempt to 'disprove' certain concepts of evolution that don't neatly fit into a religious belief.

Quote from: Godexists
no kidding....kkkkk

well , you have actually shown, that you think, random chance is a better explanation than god, to explain our existece. I honestly admire your enormous faith in chance.
Just for curiosity : would you bet a thousand dollars, that odds bigger than one to 10^50 could be considered as a real possibility to win ?
And here you go again, with another banal attempt to put your words in my mouth.  I have no faith in chance.  At all.  I understand how probability works in general, and I understand that if you widen the scale or the timeframe enough, what you might think of as 'improbable' is anything but.  I also understand that trying to come up with 'odds' of something when one can't even accurately evaluate what it is that they're trying to predict is a fool's errand.  Any attempt to calculate the odds of life occurring naturally is pretty much a waste of time until we get good enough observations of other galaxies to be able to actually determine their real conditions, rather than conditions millions or billions of years ago.  If someone in a galaxy five billion years away were to look at the Milky Way, they might well conclude that our galaxy was not hospitable to life either, because it may well not have been at that point in time.

As for your question, I wouldn't want to take your word for the odds at this point until I was sure that you actually had even a basic understanding of probability.

Offline ungod

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Re: The big bang theory is bs!
« Reply #533 on: October 30, 2011, 12:02:11 PM »

If he wanted robots, he could have created them.

He did - they're called animals, and operate on "instinct", no?

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He created beings with free will, and gave them the oportunity to obey him, or not.

One does NOT have "free will" when choices are made under duress or THREAT. You're free to shop at any store in town that you want, but if you don't shop exclusively in MY store, I'll beat the crap out of you, burn down your house, and kill your kids. Sound like "free will?" Your god is running a mafia style protection racket.

Just how gullible do you think we are?
 
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Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding. - Martin Luther

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Offline jetson

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Re: The big bang theory is bs!
« Reply #534 on: October 30, 2011, 02:14:04 PM »
godexists,

There are several forum members who have been engaging you with replies, and well thought out responses to your assertions.  I do not see you returning the favor.  This is a friendly reminder that you must back up your assertions with some form of evidence or facts, as opposed to your personal opinion (if it is your opinion, make that clear to everyone).  There is currently some discussion among the moderator team that you should be moderated more than you are currently.  Please consider that this forum has rules of engagement, and you agreed to them when you registered.  If you have a specific question, you may PM any of the moderators for clarity.

There have been plenty of believers who manage to discuss and debate without being moderated, and I'm sure you can do the same.

Jetson.

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Re: The big bang theory is bs!
« Reply #535 on: October 30, 2011, 06:10:51 PM »
Jesus suffered no more than a common criminal who was being put to death at that time suffered....

How do you know ?
Jesus lived free until Judas turned him over and he was killed as common criminals were killed at the time,up until that time how did he suffer?

 this according to the story,no?
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Re: The big bang theory is bs!
« Reply #536 on: October 30, 2011, 06:12:55 PM »
1 Samuel said to Saul, “I am the one the LORD sent to anoint you king over his people Israel; so listen now to the message from the LORD. 2 This is what the LORD Almighty says: ‘I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. 3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy  everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’

Yes. do you know why God commanded the Jews to do so ?
You said you dont kill babies for joy,but you do it by command,so the fact that there is NO joy in it its ok?
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Re: The big bang theory is bs!
« Reply #537 on: October 30, 2011, 06:18:07 PM »
we do not do what you seem to imply that should happen without a god

I don't imply anything. But the mere fact you do not kill little babies with pleasure, shows you have a moral innate conscience. If God would not exist, it would not exist. You would do anything, that you held morally objectible, and have no objection at all. And so neither others would. beside this, what is the difference between a human being, and a amoeba ? Essencially, we are made by the same elements, and there would not be any difference at all. If i kill a amoeba, or you, would not make any difference whatsoever. And it would not matter at all either, what we do today, if we live a morally high standard life, or if we are egoistic idiots. In the end, we will all die. So it matters only, how we live today, since tomorrow we will be dead. So the most stupid thing it is, to die for others. The best is to cheat, and care only for ourself, and get as much as we can from this life, others wellbeing doesnt matter.


Newsflash - reality isn't fair. That's why we have laws to try and change our situation.

That doesnt prevent Gaddhafis, Hitlers, Pol Pots, and others as bad as these to exist, and to do their evil things.
Here is what you said about killing babies and morals.....its only OK if God says so? When his follower did not kill everything he was told,God was disapointed he made him king.

 So wht if you have a moral objection to killing when God commands it what happens then.....you make God SAD
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Offline Emily

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Re: The big bang theory is bs!
« Reply #538 on: October 30, 2011, 08:15:27 PM »
And secondly, we are all naturally on the highway to hell, since we all deserve just that. Its Gods grace that permits us to escape from hell.

This is the problem with god. According the his own standards we are all deserving to burn in hell and the only escape from hell is to turn to Jesus, even though every day hundreds of people are dying without even getting the opportunity to hear about Jesus, and it's no fault of their own. What have you done, GodExists, to help those who are very, very, less fortunate than we are.

If you seriously think that we are all naturally on the highway to hell then you're completely psychotic. I will admit that if your god is real I have pissed him off many MANY times and I will admit I deserve to be tormented for it, but there are millions of people who I am going to be spending eternity with in hell who don't deserve the fate I have sealed for myself, but it doesn't matter because there are no categories in hell. There's no google search to find out where in hell one person goes. It's all the same fate for everyone. A perfectly innocent child who died from disease or hunger, or even some sort of tragic accident does not deserve to even brush elbows with me in hell. But according to god, she does because she never accepted Jesus as her savior, at no fault of her own.

it's just completely pathetic for an all-loving creature find it in his all-loving heart to send the fleshly innocent to hell to spend eternity with the most foul and disgusting lives to ever walk the earth. It's pathetic and sick and disturbing that 1/3 of the world's population even worships this being.

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But God is just, and his justice demands for punishment for our sins. The consequence of sin, is death.

A just god would sentence some beings to a far less horrible place. Maybe a place full of roses but no gold streets or pearly gates. It's kind of sick that a god wouldn't have some kind of scale like a 1 - 10 type of thing for judging his creation. The only scale he uses is whether of not a specific part of his creation has accepted his son and their savior. A bit disturbing.
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I edit a lot of my posts. The reason being it to add content or to correct grammar/wording. All edits to remove wording get a strike through through the wording.

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Re: The big bang theory is bs!
« Reply #539 on: October 30, 2011, 11:08:43 PM »
Emily,theists argue amongst themselves in what the definition of Heaven and hell is. Not one definition is the same,it is pure speculation and fantasy.

 The sad thing is they believe the can be pure dicks,but still ascend to their own definition of heaven because the "believe"
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Re: The big bang theory is bs!
« Reply #540 on: October 31, 2011, 07:12:06 AM »
Do you even know what you're talking about?  The conscience is about what is good or not good for the survival of the group.

No kidding. Why has conscience therefore not developed at animal populations, which do also live in a group ?

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  And there's plenty of examples of this in the wild, where an animal that is part of a group will provide food or protection for other members of that group.

Nontheless, they do not share our sentiment of guilt.

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That is most certainly evidence of a conscience

No, its not.

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and it enhances the survival prospects of the group as a whole.  So you are simply wrong about humans having consciences but animals not having consciences.

I don't believe you are serious to believe, there is such feeling as guilt in the animal world......

Quote from: Godexists
If he wanted robots, he could have created them. He created beings with free will, and gave them the oportunity to obey him, or not.
And what makes you think that thinking robots would not have free will?

because then they are not robots anymore. Robots do exactly, what they are programmed to do.

 
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If something is able to think, it is able to exercise initiative, and the exercise of initiative is essentially free will (doing things that one was not told to do).  And what he did, was tell them they would surely die if they ate the apples.

the frut was not a apple.


 
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When you essentially tell someone that they'll die if they do something, it's hardly giving them the 'opportunity' to obey.

why not ?


Quote from: Godexists
They had already a conscience, but it wake up only, after they sinned.
Wrong!  Genesis explicitly states that the apples were from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.  That means right or wrong, that means they didn't have consciences

Well , they had a conscience, but it wake up only after they sinned.


 
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before they ate the apples, since the conscience is what tells us something is right or wrong.  Eating the apples is what gave Adam and Eve consciences; claiming that God gave them consciences that weren't active until after they ate the apples is pure sophistry.

you are free to think so. i think god made adam and eve complete, including conscience of what is right, and what is wrong. This conscience wake up only, after they sinned. Before, it was sleeping.


Quote from: Godexists
But they did understand it, since God told them, it was wrong to eat from the three of knowledge, and if they would eat from it, they would die.
No, they did not 'understand' it.  God gave them an order and expected that it would be obeyed, because they didn't have consciences to tell them that it would be right or wrong to do so.

They new it was wrong to disobeye God's command. If they would not have known it, they also could have not been charged afterwards. they knew disobeye God's command was the wrong thing to do.

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It was just a matter of obeying his command.  They didn't question it or even think about it, until the snake talked them into it.  And even then, it wasn't about whether it was right or wrong to eat the apple, it was about whether they would die if they did (in other words, whether the statement God had made was correct).

But in the end, it was still the quest about if they would trust God, or not.


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And in any case, you're wrong here.  He didn't want Adam and Eve to do the right thing, he wanted them to do whatever he told them to do.

exactly. As long they would do what he told them to do, it would have been the right thing. obviously. otherwise, they could do whatever they wanted, it would not matter at all.


 
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He wanted them to obey.  If you want someone to do the right thing, you don't order them to, you explain the reasons and convince them that it is the right thing to do.  God only wanted blind obedience.

God explained them the reasons why not to eat the fruit......they would die.....

Quote from: Godexists
Do you live following this line of thougt ? that a human being is not worth more than a amoeba ?
Of course not.

Nice!! And who or what makes the distinction ????


 
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But I don't believe that way because of some imaginary objective morality.  I believe that way because I was taught to by my parents and by society, ala subjective morality.

Objectively speaking, therefore, you agree. It all depends only on a subjective viewpoint. If someone however thinks, a amoeba is worth as much, he is right exactly in the same way, as someone that disagrees. Since there is no objective moral standard. It all depends on each ones individual subjective viewpoint.....

 
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If I had been born in, say, Edo period Japan, in one of the noble samurai families, then I might believe that ordinary peasants were nothing more than beasts of burden, to be beheaded on a mere whim.  Again, subjective morality.  The fact that morality differs so much between cultures is proof positive that there's no objectivity to it.

But you don't live your life according to that philosophy.

Quote from: Godexists
The conscience of morals does not prevent humans to to bad things. Its just a signal of alert, that something is wrong.
Which is my point.  If someone does not believe something is wrong to do, if they believe it is the way things should be, then their conscience will not 'alert' them of anything.  The conscience is based on subjective morality, not on some pretend objective morality.

Well, there is a common conscience to all humans, even to cannibal tribes in papua new guinea. If you kill a other human being, you know its wrong. Independently of your culture and what is commonly agreed . When you steal from somebody, or betray, the same. It does not depend on what a culture agrees. There is a kind of behavior, that is wrong, and all humans do know its wrong.

Quote from: Godexists
but by working to make sure that other evildoers don't get the opportunity to repeat their mistakes.

why do you care about this ? maibe at the next generation, they will think kill others is extremely honorous, and that will be their prefered hobby and sport......does not everything depend on subjective morality ? what is valid today, might be the inverse tomorrow. Would i follow your reasoning, i would not care at all about my descendents.......

Quote from: Godexists
why should someone want to be remembered ? what difference does it make ? one day, humanity, and our world will not exist anymore. So what we do today, makes no difference at all in the end.
I'm sorry that you believe this

I did not say i believe this. But that would be my thinking, if i would share your world view.


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, but it doesn't make that true at all.  In fact, you're projecting your own bleak nihilistic view of a universe without God onto people who don't believe in God, except that they don't hold that view, so you end up needlessly making a fool of yourself.  So what if it doesn't matter at the end, however long it takes?  It matters to the people who will live their lives in tomorrows yet to come, and I believe that it's only right to do what we can to make sure those people get to live their lives.

and why do you care about this ? why do you have this concern ? maibe they want to live their live according to inverted standarts, as you have today. You don't know. In that case, your objective would be counter productive. Their moral standards are completely unknown to you.

Quote from: Godexists
that will past. And it does not any good to them. They are dead.
And there'll be new heroes who have done what they could to help human civilization along.  Most of them didn't do what they did out of some desire to be remembered in posterity, they did what they did because it was the right thing to do for all the people who had not yet lived.

And how should they know it was right ? Maibe it would not be right. There is no way how they could really know. Objective moral standards do in your world view not exist.

Quote from: Godexists
they don't care if we honor them or not. They are dead. And so we will be one day. In the end, if god does not exist,  it makes no difference at all, what we did on earth.
But I care if I honor them.  And countless generations yet to come will care about honoring their heroes, even though those heroes are long dead and gone.  Yes, everyone dies in the end.  Again, so what?  Pretending that nothing matters if there is no God is pure selfishness.

No, its the logic consequence of your world view.

 
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The people who don't yet live are only potential at this point, but it's our obligation to give them the opportunity to live their lives, just as we were given the opportunity to live our lives by those who came before us.  That's worth doing regardless of anything else.

Why is it our obligation ? Who or what does sets the standard what our obligation is ? And lets say, i don't think its our obligation. actually, i think i should make everything to let them feel their life is like hell. Who can tell me i am wrong with my view ? Nobody !! My world view is exactly valid the same as yours, since objective moral standards do not exist.

Quote from: Godexists
I already have several times, and you've dismissed them without even a serious attempt at consideration.  Why should I keep coming up with more merely so that you can continue dismissing them?

So far, i have not seen any explanation, worth of true and serious consideration....... not a hint, so far.

[qu
Quote from: Godexists
might wanna present yours ? so far, you have not.
I already did.  Several times.  The fact that you're still claiming that I have not suggests either that you do not understand that you can't rule out another person's speculative explanations by saying that they're 'impossible',

of course i can. I have a brain that can think.

Quote from: Godexists
well, if in fact these people will never been charged, its indeed irreparable. Unjustice is done
So work to improve justice in your country.

That does not solve the fact, that there are criminals, that are never catched, and die without never having paid for their crimes. that is not just. its not fair.


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, instead of pretending that God will punish the criminals for you.  Because the real injustice is the fact that you're presumably content to let God 'fix' things in the afterlife instead of making a real effort to fix them in this world.

i could make as much a effort as i wanted, that does not change the fact, that there will be always criminals, which are able to go away with it.

Quote from: Godexists
that does not change the fact, that if God does not exist, Hitler and many others like him will never be charged for his crimes. Do you think that is just ?
Justice is about the living, not the dead.  Since Hitler and those others are dead, what is the point in sitting here complaining because they won't be punished for them?  Dead is dead.  I prefer to focus on the living.  We can't change what happened in the past, but we can do our best to make sure that it doesn't continue to happen in the future.

ok. so you openly admit, according to your world view, it makes sense, it can be worth to commit crimes. We can do them, and as long as we are not catched , we are on the winning side......

Quote from: Godexists
Its also important, that justice is done. If God does not exist, evil in the end, wins.
Nonsense.  Evil isn't the result of some malign supernatural entity, anymore than morality is the result of some benevolent supernatural entity.  If there is no Go(o)d, there's no (d)Evil, either.  In that case, the worst that can happen is that everything winds down once the universe dies its heat death.  That is hardly "evil winning".

Than, according to what you say, evil does not exist. everything is just depending on each individuals view point. but you don't live according to that viewpoint, do you ?

Quote from: Godexists
its not just about begging bargain. A truly born again christian repents from his sins, and begins a new life, where the will  of God is parameter, and is followed.
Yes, it most certainly is about a plea bargain.  Even born-again Christians screw up, but as long as they're earnest about being "obedient to God", it doesn't matter what they do or who they hurt after the fact anymore than it matters what they did or who they hurt beforehand.

you don't know the bible, it seems.....

Quote from: Godexists
If he were a true christian, he would have never commited the atrocities he did.
No True ScotsmanWiki?  Please.  Christians have slaughtered both nonbelievers and other Christians in job lots because they felt God commanded them to do it.  You cannot disavow Hitler as "no true Christian" simply because those atrocities are no longer acceptable.

Anyone can call himself a christian. That does not mean that he is indeed one. The first commandment in the bible is that we love each other.


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It is completely and utterly unjust in every way, shape, and form, for a criminal to get out of paying for the crimes they committed merely by "turning over a new leaf".

That is indeed exactly what i am saying over and over. That is what happens many times, if God does not exist.

 
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And your statement that a mere passion play could expiate all crimes that everyone in the future would ever commit is ludicrous.

You are free to think about it whatever you want. But on the substitutional sacrifice of Jesus Christ and his ressurrection relies christianity. Without it, christianity would not exist.

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It gives the lie to your claims about how 'unjust' it is that someone like Hitler never got 'charged' for his crimes, because as far as you're concerned he could completely get out of being 'charged' simply by having a sincere belief in Jesus as savior, but someone else who lived an overall good life has to pay a 'penalty' that is both vile and monstrous merely because they do not have that belief.

According to a perfect and holy God, nobody is able to live a " good " life, according to his standards. And we are not charged for what we did right, but for what we did not right.

Quote from: Godexists
Quit trying to pin your nihilistic theorycrafting on me.  It is your belief, not mine

Well , it seems to me, its indeed your belief. You might just not aknowledge it.


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, and you do not get to claim that it is mine merely because you are incapable of imagining anyone who disagrees with you believing any different.  If you are not even competent enough to understand how utterly dishonest this tactic is, you have no business in this discussion in the first place.

then why do you not stop answering me right here ?

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What I actually said was that you can't be absolutely sure that the result will always come out the same, because absolute certainty is impossible to obtain.  Yes, once you are reasonably sure and have had it confirmed by others, then you can deduce things from it.  But it is foolishness to assume that just because it's always come up one way, that it always will come up that same way.  And historical science is the same way.  They have methods that can be used to date the Earth, the Sun, fossils, etc, and they can get to a reasonable level of certainty by performing the tests a sufficient number of times, exactly the same as in experimental science.

I don't think so. But if you think you have a case, feel free to present the facts.


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You can't sit here and claim that the testing methods used with experimental science give a reasonable amount of certainty, while the same testing methods used with historical science cannot give any certainty at all.

First of all, they are different testing methods, and secondly, and that is very basically, we cannot go back to the past, and verify things, to conclude , that they indeed happened in the way test methods predict.

 
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That only shows a basic lack of understanding and proves that you don't know what you're talking about.

then please presente the scientific method to find out how  the first cell originate? How did the human genome originate? How did creatures with no eyes develop eyes? How did creatures with no no brains develop brains? How did the solar system or galaxies of stars originate?


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In other words, you don't know at all, do you?  You're simply assuming that he can't have known anything about you simply because you hadn't met him.

Sure.

Quote from: Godexists
did stars exist beyond our univese ?
What does that have to do with anything?

you made the claim, you don't know about your own argument ?


Quote from: Godexists
They use the term for convenience's sake

what do you mean with that ? That they confirm the universe's parameters are finely tuned to life, but they actually mean something completely different, because its in some way convenient ?
please explain.


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, but you might notice that they generally use it in a colloquial sense, not in actual scientific research.

no, i have not noticed that. You might be more explicit, and present a example ?

 
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And you of all people have no business trying to call anyone on "discarding scientific evidence", given your tendency to dismiss anything that you don't like or that you can't answer.

I don't dismiss things purely on your presented reasons, but i explain WHY i think a given scenario is not plausible.

Quote from: Godexists
any evidence, or you just speculate ?
Of course I'm speculating.  The difference is, I'm being honest about it in saying that I don't have actual evidence to support my speculations.

Its getting even worse. So you openly admit, you have really NOTHING on hand to make a positive case for your belief system, no evidence at all ? Let me ask you : What are you actually doing here ? If i were at your place, i would first try to make my mind up, find evidence for a given world view, and then debate it with others. Presume you have a case on a negative is a waste of your time......


 
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Unlike you, who constantly says that you have evidence, except that your 'evidence' depends on being interpreted in a very specific manner, and if it's interpreted even slightly differently, it doesn't work.

I don't know if it doesnt work, MIght it does. As long as we do not know the truth, how presumably we can find out ? we can't !

 
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It's been 'calculated' by people who don't actually know for sure what the real odds are

how do you know ?

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, let alone how they might work together.

And how do YOU know, life on other planets is a real possibility ? ah, i see. pure speculation, as yourself admitted......

 
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But since they have a vested interest in 'proving' that it's excessively improbable

And you knot THAT for sake ?

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, they pretend they can actually come up with the odds just by multiplying a bunch of arbitrary values together.

Again : how do you presumably know this ? you are not just making things up ?

 
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So the only safe conclusion to make is that the calculation is worthless for actually figuring anything out.  It's just a way for them to use 'statistics' to lie.

hah... but you do know confidently, life on other planets is possible...... nice.

Quote from: Godexists
Its said that a probability less than one to 10^50 is most likely to never happen.
Go study actual probability before you make any more statements like the above.

It seems you have done your studies, right ? Might present them here ?


 
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Seriously, you're just making a fool out of yourself by speaking from uneducated ignorance about it.

ok, i am a fool. Please show your understanding about this issue. I am all ear......

Quote from: Godexists
the fine tune argument has nothing to do with that.
  What most actual scientists say is that it seems like the constants might have been fine-tuned, because they aren't sure yet what might have caused it.

What has one thing to do with the other ?

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It could easily be something like what I said, that the constants are all derivatives

derivates of what exactly ?

 
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and thus only one matters, or it could be a self-organizing principle based on the ways physical laws work

In the fine tune argument are included distances for example of the sun to the earth, or the earth to the moon, that must be in a exact finely tuned range, to work, otherwise life will not be possible. 

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or any one of a number of other ideas.  There is no evidence that any "fine-tuning" actually occurred.

then you must have a strong case for chance.....as better alternative explanation.....

Quote from: Godexists
So you should doubt about everything then. Even about the fact, that you eventually exist. you cannot prove that. You might be a hallucination.
I think I can reasonably say that the universe actually exists and that I'm not a hallucination.

But according to your reasoning, you cannot say that.

Quote
I can't absolutely prove it, but absolute proof is impossible to obtain.  But the fact that there isn't absolute proof doesn't mean that I'm going to disappear in a puff of logic sometime down the line
.

WEll, its possible, isnt it ? you never know...... if you go all down the line according to your reasoning, you must stick to the imagination, that this is a real possibility.

Quote from: Godexists
even lets say the universe is cyclical. It does not eliminate the fact that it has to have a beginning. So you throw the quest just further back.
So, where is the beginning of a circle?

Where is the evidence, that time behaves like a circle ?

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Where's the end of a circle?  If the universe is cyclical, and the end feeds into the beginning, then it always existed, with no true End nor Beginning.

and what evidence do you have to presume that scenario ? i thought our universe is expanding always faster, and time flows in a straight line, yesterday, today, tomorrow. It seems you
fluctuate in a fantasy world.....

Quote from: Godexists
You have bad cards on hand.... really.
Yeah?  Coming from someone who obviously doesn't know how probability works, you'll excuse me for not believing you.

I presume then, you know how it works. Mind to explain it to someone like me, which you held as ignorant in the field ?

Quote from: Godexists
and it gets even worse. A cell is irreducibly complex.
All that quote really says is that scientists don't currently understand how it can work without being recursive.

No, what it explains is, that all elements must be present at the same time, so that the mechanism actually works.


 
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It most certainly doesn't prove the ridiculous statement that a cell is irreducibly complex.

Your bad will to aknowledge the facts does not change anything in the fact that it is the way science has found out it is.

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This has nothing at all to do with your earlier statement about Einstein or my response to it.  As for information, it can be lost, but to say it can be destroyed is patently ridiculous.

You can write your name on a peace of paper. You burn the paper. The paper itself has been transformed in heat. The information written however on the paper, has been destroid, and cannot be recovered.

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If you burn a book that contains information, the information is lost, but it can be discovered again.

Lets say you hide a treasure, and you write the place where you hide the treasure on a peace of paper, and you die, and the paper is burned, and nobody did read the paper, then the information cannot be discovered again. Its lost forever.

Quote from: Godexists
There isn't any actual scientific evidence to favor "irreducible complexity".

your wishful thinking does not change the hard facts.


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And here you go again, with another banal attempt to put your words in my mouth.

No. You have shown that you stick to chance as a real hypotheses to be considered. Have you not ?

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  I have no faith in chance.  At all.  I understand how probability works in general, and I understand that if you widen the scale or the timeframe enough, what you might think of as 'improbable' is anything but.  I also understand that trying to come up with 'odds' of something when one can't even accurately evaluate what it is that they're trying to predict is a fool's errand.

So i guess you have another card to play ? please put  it on the table......

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Any attempt to calculate the odds of life occurring naturally is pretty much a waste of time until we get good enough observations of other galaxies to be able to actually determine their real conditions, rather than conditions millions or billions of years ago.  If someone in a galaxy five billion years away were to look at the Milky Way, they might well conclude that our galaxy was not hospitable to life either, because it may well not have been at that point in time.

feel free to ignore serious scientific inquiry, which has already brought us the probability of life existing on other planets.

« Last Edit: October 31, 2011, 07:20:23 AM by Godexists »

Online jaimehlers

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Re: The big bang theory is bs!
« Reply #541 on: October 31, 2011, 08:44:05 AM »
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.  And looking over the content of Godexists's last post, it's obvious he's really not interested in actually having a discussion where both people learn something.  For example, claiming that guilt is necessary for a conscience to exist even though we can't talk to animals to determine how they're feeling, nitpicking about the fruit of the Genesis tree not being an apple, repeating parts of his previous post almost verbatim, and the worst of all, continuing to pretend to himself that his own dark, nihilistic "a-God" ideas are the only things that make sense.  That's no way to conduct yourself in any situation.

Well, I can't stop him from lying to himself about stuff like that, but I think I've rather thoroughly demonstrated just how flawed and faulty that sort of thinking really is to an outside observer.  As far as it goes, I wish him luck in his life to come, and I hope he takes my words about trying to make things better in his country to heart.

Offline velkyn

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Re: The big bang theory is bs!
« Reply #542 on: October 31, 2011, 10:21:48 AM »
to begin with : God is the boss only of the ones, that actually WANT him as their boss. He knocks on each ones door , he does not simply come in. And secondly, we are all naturally on the highway to hell, since we all deserve just that. Its Gods grace that permits us to escape from hell. But he does not obligate you, or anyone else, to be saved. Many simply do not want to live with God, and go the heaven. God would be terrible, if he obligated us to live with him. He gives each of us our freedom, to choose, where we want to spend eternity. But God is just, and his justice demands for punishment for our sins. The consequence of sin, is death.
And more from a Christian who cherry picks his bible.  No, it doesn’t say what you’ve claimed at all.   Per your bible, God is not the “boss” of “only” the ones who want them as their boss.  You know, that whole lord of the universe thing, over every creature, etc?  And I do love how Christians can’t quite figure out what God said about “original sin”, if we have it or not.  It seems that GE is in the running for showing how he’s the only TrueChristian and how the others are “wrong”.   As for what allows us to escape the condemnation of hell, well, I think we’re up to 5 different ways from your bible, and no grace isn’t the only one.  I do like how you’ve contradicted yourself in such a short space though.  Is it “grace” that gets us saved or belief in God and “asking” him to “come in”? 

Per your bible, God obligates us to live with him or be tortured eternally.  Hmmm, how horrible is that, a threat that forces a “horrible” decision on both ends, per your own words?  And how “just” is it to punish people for something that they never did,  forced to inherit a nature that makes us supposedly “deserve” eternal torture?  You see there is no choice, as you try to claim in any of the manglings of the bible you’ve made for yourself. 
"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

http://clubschadenfreude.wordpress.com/

Offline Add Homonym

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Re: The big bang theory is bs!
« Reply #543 on: October 31, 2011, 10:55:56 AM »
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.  And looking over the content of Godexists's last post, it's obvious he's really not interested in actually having a discussion where both people learn something.  For example, claiming that guilt is necessary for a conscience to exist even though we can't talk to animals to determine how they're feeling, nitpicking about the fruit of the Genesis tree not being an apple, repeating parts of his previous post almost verbatim, and the worst of all, continuing to pretend to himself that his own dark, nihilistic "a-God" ideas are the only things that make sense.  That's no way to conduct yourself in any situation.

Well, I can't stop him from lying to himself about stuff like that, but I think I've rather thoroughly demonstrated just how flawed and faulty that sort of thinking really is to an outside observer.  As far as it goes, I wish him luck in his life to come, and I hope he takes my words about trying to make things better in his country to heart.

Did he really try to argue that morals come from God?

What makes me scratch my head when any Christian claims this, is that they seem to know what all the morals are FOR. So, if you ask them, why God prohibits killing, they will say, "Oh, that's easy. If we all went around killing anyone we felt like it, then society would fall apart, and we wouldn't be able to reproduce - having just killed our partner and children." Evidently, they can see WHY people shouldn't go around killing each other, but this moral comes from God, rather than common sense. Most species on the planet seem to know this rule, or they can't compete against other species.

In order for the "morals come from God" argument to fly, a Christian has to identify "morals" that he can't derive, or readily see a reason for, such as Sabbath on Saturdays. Why not Tuesday? Obviously, we cannot derive a reason for the Sabbath, or Saturday, so it must come from God - or it was random shit we made up. For the "morals from God" argument to fly, a Christian has to show that the morals can't be derived, which is a tricky task, when he seems to know what they are all for. If you know what they are for, you can derive them. If you can derive them, then God was not terribly involved.

I reckon Godexists could play dumb and pretend he doesn't know why we shouldn't murder anyone we feel like. What do you reckon, J? Do you reckon he has that kind of bloody-mindedness? I'd say he has.

Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline C

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Re: The big bang theory is bs!
« Reply #544 on: October 31, 2011, 11:02:52 AM »
^^^^ He already said:

Quote
Why do you think it would be fortunate, if no God would exist ? If God does not exist, i can rape and kill a child, and say, that is perfectly right.

(http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,399.msg452952.html#msg452952)
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Re: The big bang theory is bs!
« Reply #545 on: October 31, 2011, 11:48:32 AM »
Godexists.

I would like for you to post in the thread I have just created.

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,20510.0.html
God(s) exist and are imaginary

Offline Astreja

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Re: The big bang theory is bs!
« Reply #546 on: October 31, 2011, 12:35:10 PM »
That does not solve the fact, that there are criminals, that are never catchedcaught, and die without never having paid for their crimes. that is not just. its not fair.

It does, however, appear to be the way things are in the real world.

Personally, I would rather see a hundred billion criminals go unpunished before I would allow one sentient being to be tortured for eternity.  A finite number of un-caught criminals is a trivial matter compared to infinite suffering.

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But on the substitutional sacrifice of Jesus Christ and his ressurrection relies christianity. Without it, christianity would not exist.

Unsupported assertion.  Christianity could be entirely fictional at its first-generation roots, with no actual miracle-producing Jesus and no resurrection and no sacrifice.  The fact that subsequent generations of Christians believe these events to have been real does not make it so.  There is no good evidence for anyone coming back from the dead, and the concept of substitutionary atonement is just plain silly, so I'm inclined to think Christianity is just an oft-repeated fairy tale that took on a life of its own.

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Well , it seems to me, {nihilism is} indeed {jaimehlers's} belief. You might just not aknowledge it.

(Springy G  pulls out the Clue-By-Four™ and swings it southward across the Internet with substantial velocity)

*BONK* How fucking *dare* you pretend to read someone else's mind and tell *them* what *they* believe!

GE, for that act of egregious rudeness on your part, I think I shall negate your "salvation"...  Just for the Niflheim of it.  (pulls out Her sword Astrejureldingblót and severs link between GE and his beliefs)

You're welcome.   ;D
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: The big bang theory is bs!
« Reply #547 on: October 31, 2011, 03:37:04 PM »
Godexists, your posts are full of the fail. This appears to be your morality argument: 

1)morality comes from god-- he put the morality into humans
2)whatever god wants is what is moral-- humans can't figure this out without god
3)every person knows what is moral because god put that knowledge inside us-- we don't have to be taught what is or is not moral
4) if there was no god, there would be no morality and everyone would kill, rape, steal, etc.
5) since everyone does not kill, rape and steal, there must be a god![1]
QED

Here are some problems with that viewpoint, looking at the real world:

Okay, if we all have this inborn morality, why do we need parents, teachers, rules, laws, governments, police, (and/or religion, holy books, priests, shaman) to teach us right from wrong? We don't have to learn stuff that is really inborn, like feeling thirst or hunger.

If this inborn morality comes from one culture's god, why do cultures have different religions with different values, laws and rules? Why does every culture have different ideas of what death means, what sex is all about, how kids should behave, what it means to be polite?[2]

Why are there sociopaths and psychopaths in every society who seem to have no inborn sense of morality? The Hitlers, the Pol Pots, the Idi Amins who grow up right alongside people who do follow the moral rules, but who feel no guilt from killing or hurting others. Did god forget to put the morality in some people, like leaving the salt out of the stew?

It seems that a lot of very religious societies have tons of social problems--Brazil with all the unpunished murderers is highly Catholic, for example. How is it that so many less-religious societies (Japan, Sweden) have better health, less crime, higher living standards, fewer people in prison, etc. than places where most people claim to be religious? Are the Japanese and Swedes pretending to be non-religious while secretly practicing strict Christianity?

Why is it that people in Denmark, Norway and Canada somehow manage to behave in a civil manner without paying much attention to religion, but church-going, bible-reading Christians in the US lie, cheat, steal, screw and shoot each other like god ain't even looking?

And finally, how did the thousands of pre-modern societies in Europe, Africa, Asia, the Pacific and the Americas manage to thrive for centuries without believing in the particular god that the bible talks about?

Godexists, please don't just dismiss our posts with one sentence responses, or refer us to someone else's religion website. Take your time, think about what we are asking and respond. 
 1. And he just happens to be the one I believe in, lucky for me!
 2. If you don't agree that cultures differ, just ask any immigrant to your country.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Online jaimehlers

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Re: The big bang theory is bs!
« Reply #548 on: October 31, 2011, 07:51:03 PM »
Actually, I think I have one more point to make.

There is an unsolved murder; the murderer is never caught and never faces justice.  His victim was a very young girl, one who had never heard of Jesus or Christianity, and so could never have converted.  The murderer later died, but not before repenting and converting to Christianity on his deathbed.  According to a particular interpretation of Christianity, the little girl who was murdered goes to hell and spends eternity there, whereas the murderer goes to heaven and spends eternity there.  The murderer is never charged with a crime, never punished for his wrongdoing, and is rewarded for making a deathbed conversion; the little girl who he murdered, and who had her entire life cut short, is punished despite any possibility of her becoming a Christian in her life being taken away by the murderer.

This is justice...how?

Offline jetson

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Re: The big bang theory is bs!
« Reply #549 on: October 31, 2011, 08:16:36 PM »
Actually, I think I have one more point to make.

There is an unsolved murder; the murderer is never caught and never faces justice.  His victim was a very young girl, one who had never heard of Jesus or Christianity, and so could never have converted.  The murderer later died, but not before repenting and converting to Christianity on his deathbed.  According to a particular interpretation of Christianity, the little girl who was murdered goes to hell and spends eternity there, whereas the murderer goes to heaven and spends eternity there.  The murderer is never charged with a crime, never punished for his wrongdoing, and is rewarded for making a deathbed conversion; the little girl who he murdered, and who had her entire life cut short, is punished despite any possibility of her becoming a Christian in her life being taken away by the murderer.

This is justice...how?

Oh, jaime, jaimehlers...have you not learned anything during your stay here?

We can't know the mind and justice of the almighty God.  It is not our place to pass judgment on others above God himself.  We are fallen creatures, created and loved by God himself, each given an opportunity to journey towards God, and to be accepted by his graciousness.  All we need to do is accept Jesus as our lord and savior!  I don't see how you cannot understand?

By the way, you are in denial at this time.  You are a full blown atheist.   ;D

Offline pingnak

Re: The big bang theory is bs!
« Reply #550 on: October 31, 2011, 08:20:44 PM »
Any chain of causality will always end in a question mark.

If not 'what before the big bang', then 'If humans are so complex they need a god to make them, what made that god?  And that greater god?  And that greater god?'